Yahtzee vs. the JRPG

tobyornottoby

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I don't care what any official media says, if Vanille is over 16 I will suffocate myself with a miniskirt
This is just racial ignorance. Have you ever watched one of those Japanese shows where moms are dressed up in their daughter's school uniform? Could be mistaken for a school girl themselves anyday. The lesson: they really can look way younger.

But don't suffocate yourself just yet. Aside from your flaming fanboys I love your videos every week =)

EDIT: of course you could also draw a lesson that confirms that blatant fetishism you're talking about there ;) But that's a chicken/egg
 

Abriael

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LordNue said:
Jesus, you don't think there's a problem with that? Final Fantasy is the only series that can get away with "Oh you only played for five hours and therefore didn't get to play half of the system."
In a game that can easily last more than a 100 hours? You playeded 5% of the game and you're surprised if you didn't unlock more than half of the system?

Then I guess all the western RPGs in which you start with crappy equipment and very few skills must be horrible for you?

Not to mention those FPSs that, have you play the first 5% only with a crowbar? Those must really disgust you, I guess.
 

Abriael

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LordNue said:
Lets stick with WRPGs here. You start with shitty equipment like in a JRPG, but oh hey, you can't attack or loot because *Gasp* you're only five hours into the game! You shouldn't have to unlock the fucking system of the game, that is just poor design.
But you CAN attack and loot since the very beginning in Final Fantasy XIII. What you unlock with progression is the Paradigm Shift itself (very, very early), which is basically the ability to change class, and further paradigms for each character, which is no different than unlocking additional classes.

Sorry, but flawed and biased comparisons don't fly :D
 

madrick11

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As much as I love JRPGS, I do agree with some of the things Yahtzee says. Admittedly, I am currently enjoying FFXIII, however it doesn't feel as strong as FFVI, or FFVII, or hell, not even FFIV. These days I find that Atlus is the company that makes the best JRPGS out there, such as,
Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne
the Persona series
the Devil Summoner series
and even the Digital Devil Saga series
Even though I'm diehard Square fan, they have been disappointing me lately, with their only good titles in recent years in my opinion being, The World Ends With You, and FFXIII (again, that's just my opinion).
 

Bosola

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Abriael said:
In a game that can easily last more than a 100 hours?
Stretching it a bit, but I'll let this fly

You playeded 5% of the game and you're surprised if you didn't unlock more than half of the system?
No. He played five hours and was surprised the mechanics were gimped. The real-time measurement is important. It doesn't matter what proportion of the game you've completed - if the game does not offer you new skills and matters to deal with as you master them, then the learning curve is, well, flatlining, and this can make a game significantly less fun.

Not that every other FF game gets away on this point. I'm often inclined to believe that VII introduces Added Effect, MP Absorb and Counter - some of the most interesting materia in the game - far too late on (by which point, they've been rendered redundant by Ultima / Trine / their many cousins)

Then I guess all the western RPGs in which you start with crappy equipment and very few skills must be horrible for you?
Except that they then soon start introducing many new elements to master, and quickly. LordNue 's specific complaint is that XIII does the very opposite of this, and that this will spoil the pacing of the game.

Not to mention those FPSs that, have you play the first 5% only with a crowbar? Those must really disgust you, I guess.
As I recall, HL1 doesn't leave you with a crowbar for very long. In fact, there's about thirty seconds between the bar and the first available firearm. HL2 leaves you weaponless for a while, but then again, I think that HL2 is just not a very well-paced game, and that its on-rails, restrictive philosophy can be too suffocating to make it a worthy sequel to its predecessor. Of course, HL1 was no less linear, but it always managed the trick of offering you one choice, but pulling the illusion that you'd determined it yourself. But I digress.

Also: GarlandG thinks it's too slow, too. And if you won't believe him, then all's lost for you ; )
 

Abriael

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LordNue said:
Given that you did a flawed and biased comparison yourself you shouldn't be talking. The point is that it is utterly retarded to have chunks of an entire system arbitrarily locked away for no reason, especially if it takes more then 5 hours just to see glimpses of this regardless of how long the game is over all.
You don't see "glimpses". There's a steady progression.

Bosola said:
Stretching it a bit, but I'll let this fly
It's not stretched at all. If anyone manages to do all the missions in less than 100 hours, I'll give him a medal.

No. He played five hours and was surprised the mechanics were gimped. The real-time measurement is important. It doesn't matter what proportion of the game you've completed - if the game does not offer you new skills and matters to deal with as you master them, then the learning curve is, well, flatlining, and this can make a game significantly less fun.
but the game offers you PLENTY new skills as you progress. It even offers you new character. There's tons of skills to unlock in FFXIII, not just the paradygms. And the game is very progressive since the very start in unlocking them.
Does it give you ALL he skills at the very beginning? No.
Does it leave you without progression? Never.

It's that simple.
 

Zukonub

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To be perfectly honest, 5 hours without paradigms sort of made sense within the story... Since the characters didn't have any magic, why would one be able to use it? I mean, yeah, it's stupid and poorly paced, and I will never defend it, but it had to begin that way for story purposes. It couldn't have just begun after the Ragnarok vision.

But by all means they should have made it a tad shorter than 5 hours.
 

Zukonub

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But what I meant with the beginning quote was that some of the later battles in the game are absolutely PHUN. Some of the best battles in the entire series, and not even after the 20-hour mark.
 

Abriael

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Zukonub said:
To be perfectly honest, 5 hours without paradigms sort of made sense within the story... Since the characters didn't have any magic, why would one be able to use it? I mean, yeah, it's stupid and poorly paced, and I will never defend it, but it had to begin that way for story purposes. It couldn't have just begun after the Ragnarok vision.

But by all means they should have made it a tad shorter than 5 hours.
You're absolutely right. That's why you unlock the ability of use Paradigm Shift, the first paradigms, and the crystarium at the very beginning of chapter 3, which is more or less ONE hour (one hour and an half if you play reeeal slow) into the game :D

Whoppiedoo!
 

boholikeu

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Abriael said:
boholikeu said:
Gameplay can be contradictory to the story if the player's actions don't match what the game story is trying to tell you. For example, it's contradictory for an RPG that's about healing the world to only make the combat situations playable. For a better explanation of this google "ludo-narrative dissonance".
Good point, too bad that Final Fantasy XIII isn't about "healing the world" at all, not even nearly.
This is true. Like I mentioned before, I haven't played FFXIII yet so I can't tell you about any contradictory gameplay within its story. Based on every review I've read so far though, the storyline has very little to do with the actions you perform in the game.

Again, I haven't played the game yet, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm willing to give FFXIII a try if it looks like one of those rare JRPGs to break the mold.
 

Abriael

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boholikeu said:
This is true. Like I mentioned before, I haven't played FFXIII yet so I can't tell you about any contradictory gameplay within its story. Based on every review I've read so far though, the storyline has very little to do with the actions you perform in the game.

Again, I haven't played the game yet, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm willing to give FFXIII a try if it looks like one of those rare JRPGs to break the mold.
I didn't see any contradiction. Can't say what contradiction others saw in it, since I didn't see them. The characters of Final Fantasy XIII make very much sense and are very believable, expecially when you start knowing them, their reasons and their past.
 

stone0042

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In all honesty, he should check out Legends of Legaia, for the PS1. I absolutely loved this game, and it seems to fit pretty well with his criteria.
 

boholikeu

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Abriael said:
boholikeu said:
This is true. Like I mentioned before, I haven't played FFXIII yet so I can't tell you about any contradictory gameplay within its story. Based on every review I've read so far though, the storyline has very little to do with the actions you perform in the game.

Again, I haven't played the game yet, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm willing to give FFXIII a try if it looks like one of those rare JRPGs to break the mold.
I didn't see any contradiction. Can't say what contradiction others saw in it, since I didn't see them. The characters of Final Fantasy XIII make very much sense and are very believable, expecially when you start knowing them, their reasons and their past.
Fair enough, but like I mentioned before it still looks like gameplay and plot are pretty divorced in FFXIII. It may not be contradictory, but if gameplay isn't related to story in some way then I'd rather just watch the cinematics on youtube than pay $60 for a battle system with a marginally related story.
 

Zukonub

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Abriael said:
Zukonub said:
To be perfectly honest, 5 hours without paradigms sort of made sense within the story... Since the characters didn't have any magic, why would one be able to use it? I mean, yeah, it's stupid and poorly paced, and I will never defend it, but it had to begin that way for story purposes. It couldn't have just begun after the Ragnarok vision.

But by all means they should have made it a tad shorter than 5 hours.
You're absolutely right. That's why you unlock the ability of use Paradigm Shift, the first paradigms, and the crystarium at the very beginning of chapter 3, which is more or less ONE hour (one hour and an half if you play reeeal slow) into the game :D

Whoppiedoo!
Well, I did clear out all the areas. I suppose I just play really slow!
 

Vicioussama

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Yahtzee, I have a question. What did you think about Fina Fantasy IX? Since it was created by the original creator of the series and didn't EXACTLY start off in the middle of things in terms of the story or character development but did start off in the middle of a mission, that is true. I personally find FF9 to be my favorite. Has better pacing in story and character development than FF1-6, but none of that goofy nonsense shit like FF8, 10, X-2, XII, XIII lol. FF7 is kinda a mixed thing, has some goofy shit but not really in a bad way.

So ya, would love your thoughts on FF9 if you preferred the older FFs especially.
 

Tetranitrophenol

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boholikeu said:
Abriael said:
boholikeu said:
This is true. Like I mentioned before, I haven't played FFXIII yet so I can't tell you about any contradictory gameplay within its story. Based on every review I've read so far though, the storyline has very little to do with the actions you perform in the game.

Again, I haven't played the game yet, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm willing to give FFXIII a try if it looks like one of those rare JRPGs to break the mold.
I didn't see any contradiction. Can't say what contradiction others saw in it, since I didn't see them. The characters of Final Fantasy XIII make very much sense and are very believable, expecially when you start knowing them, their reasons and their past.
Fair enough, but like I mentioned before it still looks like gameplay and plot are pretty divorced in FFXIII. It may not be contradictory, but if gameplay isn't related to story in some way then I'd rather just watch the cinematics on youtube than pay $60 for a battle system with a marginally related story.
I wouldnt spend too much time trying to convince this guy that the game itself sucks. Ever since Yathzee's FF review was released he's been defending the game with Shield and Claymore in hand against the waves of hate.
I gave up trying to convince him when he told me he has played and enjoyed each and every Final Fantasy game since #1 and still thinks FF13 is a Masterpiece. Not that I believe him but if he is capable of saying such things with a straight face then there is no hope for him...except, you know...Hope.
 

Abriael

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Tetranitrophenol said:
I wouldnt spend too much time trying to convince this guy that the game itself sucks. Ever since Yathzee's FF review was released he's been defending the game with Shield and Claymore in hand against the waves of hate.
You know, people with a brain have opinions and ideas. They often defend them even if you happen to believe they are wrong and "try to convince" them.

Or maybe you think that someone should immediately stand at attention and bend over as soon as you tell them "you're wrong!" with some weak argument made up of hearsay and prejudices?

The fact that a random guy on the internet with awful gaming tastes, whose job is bashing games while blabbering without pauses hates a game, doesn't automatically make that game bad (actually, it raises the chances for that game to be actually good).

Zukonub said:
Well, I did clear out all the areas. I suppose I just play really slow!
I cleared out every single chest and mob myself. I can't imagine taking more than one hour and an half for the first two chapters. After that, both the crystarium AND paradigm shift are unlocked and progress becomes costant (completely voiding the "5 hours" theory, by the way).


boholikeu said:
Fair enough, but like I mentioned before it still looks like gameplay and plot are pretty divorced in FFXIII. It may not be contradictory, but if gameplay isn't related to story in some way then I'd rather just watch the cinematics on youtube than pay $60 for a battle system with a marginally related story.
The gameplay isn't related to the story how? The characters are fugitives. They're hunted. They fight the ones that are hunting them. What's exactly divorced in that?