Yahtzee vs. the JRPG

[CaptainLudicrous]

...and I don't care what any official media says, if Vanille is over 16 I will suffocate myself with a miniskirt

As both a fan of spectacle, and someone who played more then the first five hours, I feel obliged to point out that...

Spoiler

... later in the game, you find out that Vanille is over 500 years old.

Hmm, I hate to see yahtzee go, but somehow this seams like a poetic death.

 

[v3n0mat3]

Ok, I will agree that FFVI is the best FF ever made. My problem here is that Yatzee seems to be giving the people who do like the game shit for the sake of giving them shit for daring to play any FF past VI. Lastly, the first sentence seemed rather pretentious to me. "...If you claim to have enjoyed playing Final Fantasy XIII, then you are wrong." Um. Well. That's a matter of opinion, isn't it? Who are you to say that someone is wrong for enjoying playing a game? It is a game after all, no matter how you view it.

 

[tetron]

So saying that you 'play' FFXIII is like standing in the middle of a river and claiming to be the all-powerful master of water. No, you're not, you're just an idiot with wet trousers...

But who doesn't want to be the guy standing in the middle of the river, actually believing that they're the master of water, as opposed to some overweight middle aged guy bitterly disapproving from the sidelines ?

 

[deleted_scifidownbeat]

DELETED

 

[likalaruku]

Final Fantasy 1-6. Secret of Mana, Chrono Trigger, Zelda, Phantasy Star 3 & 4, Crusader of Centy, Tales of Phantasia, Star Ocean, Hydlide....

American PC games made to look & funcion exactly like them:
-------------------------------------------------------------
Ahriman's Prophecy (free)
Arcuz.
Arvale: Treasure of Memories.
Asguaard.
Aveyond.
Aveyond 2.
Aveyond 3: Lord of the Twilight.
Aveyond 3: The Lost Orb.
Aveyond 3: Gates of Night.
Blades of Heaven.
ButaVX (free)
Dark Souls.
Dark Souls 2.
Dawn's Light.
Dawns Light 2: A Christmas Tale.
DreamScape.
Eschalon Book 1.
Eternal Eden.
Eternal Twilight.
Hero's Tale Enhanced.
Kara's Quest.
King's Quest 1.
Last Heroes.
Laxius Force.
Laxius Force 2.
Laxius Power 1 (free)
Laxius Power 2 (free)
Laxius Power 3 (free)
Legie.
Lily & Sasha: Curse of the Immortal.
Millenium: A New Hope.
Millenium 2: Take Me Higher.
Mardek 1 (free)
Mardek 2 (free)
Mardek 3 (coming soon).
Morning's Wraith.
Pinnacle: The Witch Hunt Begins.
The Way 1 (free)
The Way 2 (free)
The Way 3 (free)
The Way 4 (free)
The Way 5 (free)
The Way 6 (free)
Unseen World.
Whisper of a Rose (Gold).

 

[boholikeu]

Because there are so many small little cinematic events during the gameplay that there isn't much space left for more narrative. I'd guess. What holds them back from moving to cutscenes to other kind of media you said it yourself, it's style and personal development choice. I definitely doubt that making good cutscenes is technically more difficult or expensive than telling the story through gameplay.
It's a tradeoff that boils down to personal style.

See, the "it's their personal style" argument just sounds like a cop-out to me. Style choices like that (where you take away from something) are typically made for a specific reason. To go back to the movie analogy, if a movie chooses to focus its narrative primarily through either sound or visual information, it usually adds some greater meaning to the overall work. If it doesn't people generally consider it a flaw because otherwise there's no reason for a director not to focus on both aspects of film making. Same goes for games and interactive. If you're going to mainly tell a video game narrative through non-interactive sequences you better have a pretty good reason why you aren't also doing it through gameplay. For example, one could argue that Uncharted has such a cinematic focus because it's actually an homage to action movies like Indiana Jones. That makes sense because it's a pretty specific stylistic reason, but how does leaving the narrative out of gameplay in FF games enrich them? Certainly progressing the story in both cinematics and gameplay would add more meaning to the work as a whole, right? If you can come up with a stylistic reason why they wouldn't want to include story in the gameplay I'd be happy to change my mind about "cinematic" JRPGs, but as it stands it seems more likely they are just continuing an outdated convention that was born from the technological limits of old consoles.

They are part of game design, and counting what some quite famous movie directors had to say about Kojima, I'd say he's not bad at all at it.

What'd they have to say about him? I'll admit his action scenes are quite good, but the rest are pretty horrible...

No game needs a "kick into new territory". innovation is not a necessary element to quality in a game (actually most of the times innovation for it's own sake turns into a trainwreck, as the past very aptly demonstrated, despite the fac that many refuse to learn).
There's plenty space in the industry for games that stick to their tradition, like Dragon Age did for western RPGs (being critically acclaimed for that, mind you).
There are Japanese developers that innovate, like Level 5. that turned White Knight Chronicles into a receptacle for a BIG deal of innovation to the JRPG genre, and more will come with White Knight Chronicles 2.
Other developers, exactly like Bioware did with Dragon Age, prefer to stick to their traditions and the traditions that their public likes. You don't like em? Well, though luck. You may consider the fact that you don't belong to their target and just move on. The gaming market offers plenty alternatives that you'll like even without hoping for the genre that you dislike will disappear or turn into something else.

Actually people are moving on. Like I mentioned before JRPGs are becoming more and more of a niche genre, with only the truly innovative titles (or really big names like FF) doing well outside of Japan.

 

[PiCroft]

Whenever a new ZP comes out, I see if the game is a popular one and what number of comments have been posted; if it's a popular/hot game Yahtzee will more often than not be quite cruel and this will prompt an endless parade of butthurt posters claiming they stopped liking Yahtzee when he dissed their favorite games.

Christ.

 

[beema]

Totally agree with your picks here. FF6 and Chrono Trigger are probably two of my favorite RPGS, if not games, of all time. When RPG's went in to the realm of 3D, something was lost, and I'm not entirely sure what exactly or why. You explained very well how FF6 managed to be simple yet grand, and I don't think many games new or old are able to accomplish that. Although, I'm playing FFIX for the first time right now and I'm enjoying it a lot. If you manage to ignore that the main protagonist looks like a prepubescent HSN doll during the cutscenes, it's actually a pretty fun game.

 

[flosy]

I'm probably going to make myself more unpopular than I am already by saying I liked it. It isn't a pick up and play game you need to relay immerse yourself in the story to start to like it, the more you do so the more it grows on you (yes like a growth...). Seriously though the characters seem incredibly unlikeable in the early parts of the game, but as you get deeper under their skin they become less and less annoying.

As for the linearity I agree it is a terrible system, but once you get past chapter 9ish it starts to open up into a much more diverse and free world. I know that isn't an excuse for the bad design choices early enough in game (which at certain points relay did get frustrating).Despite this if you are willing to drag yourself through the tedious grinding, and insanely hard bosses there are some relay ausome moments made even better through the hard work needed to get to them.

If you can't stand FF13 I recommend you watch the first nine chapters cut scenes on you tube, if you start to like the characters then it will be worth it. If not its not you just aren't the type of person that will enjoy this game. Personal I found once I got into the twenty minute long boss fights I started to enjoy it. The fights become almost an emotional cycle from agh how an I going to beat this to ooh I could win with AGH NOO moments, ending in a wooo!!! moment. Basically its a hard game to get into, but once you do it will reward you for it.

 

[flosy]

Whenever a new ZP comes out, I see if the game is a popular one and what number of comments have been posted; if it's a popular/hot game Yahtzee will more often than not be quite cruel and this will prompt an endless parade of butthurt posters claiming they stopped liking Yahtzee when he dissed their favorite games.

Christ.

No-one should take a commic reviewer that seriously; if people did no-one would buy anything. I diddent like Psyconought and liked Brútal legend for example. Anyone who gets worked up about oppinons probly needs to chill out XD

 

[Sir Prize]

Well, I can agree with Yahtzee on this one and this comes from a ex-fan of series.

Final Fantasy may be decent as a story but not as a game because there isn't THAT much of a game to begin with. You spend much of time watching cut scenes about characters who all seem have a connection to someone from a pervious game. Also, while talking about the characters, none of them seem to be likeable and in a game that is nearly a story likeable characters are a must.

You can say that it gets good later on but really playing a game is like meeting a person, the first impression is important. If getting to the fun parts takes more than two hours than that is just bad design and not a good style choice at all because not many people want to wait that long. The best kind of game is one that draws you in quickly and the best kind of story is one that don't have to skip the start of and one that doesn't start at the middle.

I've seen some really good example's of good RPGS, one being the Breath of Fire series because you start at the start of the events and you develop an idea of what is going on. Also, if one has to have a slow starting game then do it the Obilvion/Fallout 3 way, give the player a reason behind the slow start.

I know this is a long rant but this is the best way for explaining the issues with JRPGs like Final Fantasy, in my view at least.

EDIT: Also, FF has got an over the top story because it's not expalined from the start, with Lord of the Rings there was a BASIC understanding what was happening and of who was behind. SOmeone said Fallout 3's story was bad, but at least you know the basic's!

 

[PerceptiveMan]

The problem with FF XIII is pretty simple; It's a game that sheds pretty much everything in the name of "we're going to tell you a damn fine story!" and then...completely fails to follow through on the "damn fine story" part. The battle system is minimalist, and the only other ways the player interacts with the game is an overblown and stupid character levelling system and an unremarkable item "levelling" system.

All this would have been fundamentally forgivable if we'd cared about the characters and found the story leaving us wondering what's going to happen next. Instead we have a confused mess of a plot with characters that you can't understand who are, frankly, pretty dang annoying until you've dealt with them for 15+ hours. That's inexcusable in a game that jettisons so much in the way of gameplay.

If FF13 had an awesome combat system (Sorry, it doesn't) that started out fast and only got better, then it would be forgivable that the story takes a while to get going (Aside: I -still- don't care, and I'm basically done with the game.) but when you say "We're cutting towns, sidequests, exploring, and any real control over battles so we can give you a good story!" you bloody well better deliver on the story. And they didn't. And even with the tedious blob that is the story, they -could- have salvaged it with an endearing cast, but they botched that too - if the whole party had been as cool as Sazh, then, you know, I'd have cheerfully played through it anyway, because I would've been entertained by the character interactions, even if the plot was meh and the combat was mediocre.

Fundamentally, the problem is that FF13 fails to hit any of the three pillars of CRPG design square on - the story isn't anything to write home about, the game mechanics are bland, and the characters take 20 hours to grow out of "God shut up already." None of the aspects are terrible, but neither are any of them -good-. And without doing well in at least one of those three areas, there's really not much to recommend the game at all, beyond the fact that it is Really Pretty(tm).

Can the JRPG be done properly? Absolutely the hell yes. It has happened as recently as Persona 4 (2008), which, frankly, sweeps every western offering from the past five years completely aside in terms of character development, plotting, and atmosphere, while maintaining a number of engaging game play mechanics. What hasn't been proved yet and really needs to be is that the JRPG can be done properly on current gen hardware, because none of the offerings currently in that space go beyond "pretty decent" (Tales of Vesperia) and most of them haven't even gotten that far, with several outright sucking (I'm looking at you, Infinite Undiscovery.) I was looking forward to FF13 because it really COULD have been the game to show everyone (again) why JRPGs are awesome, because, frankly, there are too many posts here from people who only played FF games and are now saying "Geez, this genre sucks now."

 

[The Mapper]

"Beat it to the rush to give me money" i might jsut have 2 do that...

 

[Daveman]

I can't be bothered to wade through all 12 pages of this thread to find out if somebody has mentioned this but one game (well, two) I played that apparently is JRPG style is the Penny Arcade game On the rain-slick precipice of Darkness. While I had little knowledge of Penny Arcade before I played (I knew of them basically, "Gabe's thick, Tycho is verbose" pretty much summed up my knowledge) I found the game really, really fun. The story was simple enough as was the gameplay but over all, for a small budget game (with turn-based combat and story conveyed either in text or in cutscenes, hence a JRPG supposedly).

Sadly the series is apparently over as the dev (hothead games) ran out of money but I just thought I'd mention it as how to make them fun.

 

[bongo300]

Some JRPG's are good but it's hard to find one that is realy good

 

[captaincabbage]

I know it's not much of a jrpg, but what about Shadow of the Colossus. and why hasn't he made a video review of it?

 

[BlitzSage]

I know this is a month late, because honestly I didn't know that he wrote columns on here. I was completely shocked when I heard him say that he actually enjoyed FFVI. Not only because he said he enjoyed a turn-based JRPG that I consider one of my all-time favorite games, but FFVI has often been overshadowed by games like Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy 7. I'm glad that he pointed out that the characters were expressive and the plot was grandiose. I would argue that tha amnesia part is really not that bad, because it does make sense with the plot, since she was controlled by the Empire, and the main aspect of the story is revealing the secrets that Kefka uses to gain power later in the game.

I would also argue that, while Chrono Trigger's story is easy to understand, and perhaps its combat is better, FFVI's storytelling quality is above it, and I would argue that versus every game he mentioned. It is straightforward, as any good story should be, but it's not entirely simple. The other games have a lot of style and humor that is respectable, but they don't have plots that are as well executed.

Maybe I'm wrong, or perhaps weird, but I play RPGs because of the experience, immersion, and storytelling. Much like the point-and-click adventure games, it's all about interacting with the world, instead of completing the level or beating the boss. All I'm saying is that there's a place for both.

 

[Joon]

This might sound like me hyperbolically overstating things for comic effect again, but if you claim to have enjoyed playing Final Fantasy XIII, then you are wrong. Because I don't think you can use the word 'playing' in this context. Final Fantasy XIII is more like something you 'watch', or 'are subjected to'. For the lion's share of the game the only real input the player has is during battles (and even that's a loose and uninvolving input)

Yes, it sounds like you hyperbolically overstating things for controversy effect.
Or more because you're bent over so many people calling you on the fact that your "review" of FFXIII was misinformative on so many levels, that I'd define it more of a disjointed rant than anything else.

So be it, i will cave in and respond to your plea for attention.

I enjoyed and Enjoy Final Fantasy XIII, at the moment i'm savoring the open endedness that's chapter 11 fully, on my 117th hour of gameplay. And mind you, you're no one to say that I'm "wrong".

I never once felt, during the game, as I wasn't in control. Maybe because I wasn't so biased against it and I actually took the few minutes necessary to read the tutorials (you look like you didn't) and master the Paradigm Shift system, that is very complex, tactical, and requires a good deal of tactic and forward-thinking to use to it's full extent.

You say you're not in control? Really? What is "being in control" like? In games it normally means that the game puts a problem in front of you, and you have to solve such problem through input.
Even during the most linear parts, Final Fantasy XIII puts enemies in front of you, and you have to decide how to kill them. That's the very definition of being "in control".

And by the way, God forbid a game not forcing the gamer to mindlessly mash buttons randomly over and over! Tactical approach is the devil! I seriously wonder what you thought of Battle Chess...

Funny, though, that you continue to rant about the alleged "fashion sense" of Final Fantasy characters, given that not counting Vanille's skirt, the characters in Final Fantasy XIII all wear some fairly normal and practical outfits. Makes me wonder if you paid actually paid attention during those meager 5 hours.
To be further honest, I've been wonder if you DID play those 5 hours, or simply mashed together a few misiformed opinions read somewhere.

Seriously, do yourself a favor, Yatzhee, don't defend your "review" further. You're just digging yourself in deeper.
Your personal fanboys will like you anyway, though, don't worry. Now that you're feeling reassured and validated again you can move on to the next game you'll bash.

You are, unequivocally, wrong.

You are barely in control. Around hour 15 you actually get to choose your party for the first time. Around hour 22, you get to the first, and only, area that isn't a hallway. The game does not, as many say, "open up" later on. There is one field. You go through it to continue down the hallway to the end of the game. If you're so inclined, you can go down two or three other, optional hallways that branch off of the singular field. In this "opening up" of the game, you have all the exciting "control" of being able to run long distances to fight the same 20 monster models all over again. What an adventure!

As far as the battles are concerned, again, you're wrong. You, as the player, again, barely have control. You actually tell one out of three fighters what to do. The others, you give general suggestions. It might be much more productive for a certain fight if, say, while I'm controlling Lightning, Hope first casts bravery or faith. But he won't! Even if I have him set in the proper buffing mode, he has his own priority of buffs. Same thing with every paradigm. No matter what might be optimal for a given situation, you only control one character. The other two have general ideas of what you want them to do. That is not control, it's suggestion.

The paradigms themselves are limiting. The abilities you have, regardless of what you've learned, are set by which paradigm you're in. Ravager Lightning completely forgot all of the healing spells she knew a moment ago. You can't even change individual characters on the fly! You have to change the whole group. It might be best in some fight to suddenly have one character be defensive, do some healing, or start buffing. Well, hope you programmed that paradigm as one of your six choices with the other two staying in your preferred role! It's incredibly limiting.

Funny how you call him a fanboy while you're the one with your lips planted firmly on the cheeks of a game that, without the name recognition, would be even more well regarded as garbage.

In any case, since Vanille is WAY over 16 (and you would have known if you, you know... played the game), will you do what you promised with that miniskirt Yatzhee?

Epic fail is epic.

So someone who is physically, emotionally, and mentally a child but existed as some form, without thought or function, for centuries you would consider to be ancient? You're being obstinate for its own sake.

 

[Crono Maniac]

That said, I want to know if he's ever played Persona 3 and/or 4, and what his thoughts on them were. I guess he really just can't be bothered to play them, given his apparently busy schedule.

Chrono Trigger, Earthbound, all the Mario RPGs, and the SNES Final Fantasy games (IV needs waaaay more love) are JRPGs that are (for the most part) universally enjoyable. Persona 4 (I'm working on 3) is an absolutely amazing game, but it is definitely not universally so. It's basically a medium-splice between visual novels and dungeon crawlers (a fantastic visual novel and a fantastic dungeon crawler, mind you) and I can see a ton of people really not digging having their (awesome) dungeon crawling mixed up with an (awesome) thirty-hour audio book with sparse visuals. Persona can only be enjoyed in the right mindset, and it comes with a huuuuge time commitment at that, so I don't see Yahtzee ever playing them, despite them avoiding almost all of the flaws that plague the modern JRPG.

This is one of my favorite Extra Punctuation articles, and if you replace "Final Fantasy VII" with "Final Fantasy VIII" and remove the sentence about Chrono Trigger having tedious boss battles (no clue what he's talking about here, none of the fights even get close to a half-hour long), then I completely agree with him.