"You can't love animal's if you're not a vegetarian"

[ThrobbingEgo]

It seem to me that you only see in extremes, as there doesn't appear to be any middle ground, with you. Yes commercial produced chicken are not treated well. That however doesn't mean that it is impossible to get eggs from a chicken without caging it up. I know quite a few people that keep chicken for eggs and let them roam about at their leisure. These people might also have a cold fusion reactor in their basements I suppose or maybe they have magic chickens or maybe just maybe you can keep chickens for their eggs without caging them up.

No I do not buy canned lentils. In fact I do not buy a large amount of canned food generally because of sodium content and the fact that typically it is cheaper to make most canned stuffs if you know how and care to, and by doing so I know exactly what went in to it. I use dried in regard to beans and things of that nature. Lentils I just haven't found appealing when I have made them. If you want to provide me with a recipe for good lentils I will try it out. I really want to like lentils as the are super cheap and super healthy, just haven't had much luck with them.

I never implied that that anyone needed to Hawk eye their diets, but they do need to care about them. The fast food industry is enormous simply because people don't care. The fact that the majority of a supermarket is filled with processed food and "boxed" dinners is disturbing. Seriously go to a supermarket and look most of the food they sell there is barely food. That is the problem. If people even paid half as much attention to what they were eating as the lest uptight vegan our national health would improve.

I feel like you're talking over my posts quite a bit. I'm not sure if you're doing that intentionally or if you skipped over it, but at any rate I did specifically mention grocery stores and restaurants as well as the egg industry in my last post. Backyard animals are problematic for other reasons, but I'll concede it's not as intrinsically appalling in the same sense. That said, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the sense that when you talk about these other people who get eggs from animals in their care you're not talking about the eggs you (or the vast, vast majority of people in your country) consume, which means my concerns about the wellbeing of egg laying hens are valid.

As for the lentils, I don't do anything terribly special with them. I'll add them to soups, pasta dishes, curries, or stir fry. Do you have the same issue with peas or beans? I find that, by themselves, they're fairly neutral.

If you didn't mean to imply that vegans had to be super-extra careful about their diets or we'd die of malnutrition or some dross, fine. I've heard some outlandish comments about vegans from people who've only heard about vegans or only know total health-nut vegans, and there's also a lot of misinformation floating around. I'm not a vegan for the health bennies, and I've made no special claims about vegan diets or health, aside from the fact that it can be healthy. And yeah, if people didn't think that $5 for 4-liters of Pepsi was a better deal than spending that money on an occasional vegetable, there'd be less unhealthy people in whichever nation you live in.

If you're really looking to split hairs, you'll find hairs to split, but I'm not going to keep rescue chickens or whatever in my apartment to avoid eating tempeh. (Nor would I be entirely comfortable with that.)

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

Meat is meat. Food is food. There is not a person in this forum or in this world I would not kill if I had to, for food. Just survival as it is.

Is it survival if you have other options? If so, should eating people be permissible if you feel like it?

 

[RoBi3.0]

You couldn't be more incorrect about vegan diets. There is protein in almost every plant--quinoa is one great example of a reliable source of plant based protein--for others, see: http://foodmatters.tv/articles-1/top-6-plant-based-proteins - the protein to calorie ratio is usually better in plants and plant based protein is cheaper than meat protein, at least before subsidies. Plants also have 0 cholesterol.

There are many vegan athletes and even weight-lifters (see Arian Foster for one, see this article for others: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/sports/vegans-muscle-their-way-into-bodybuilding.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 )

Humans are not not not carnivores, they are omnivores.

Shake your jaw left and right--in other words, horizontal. Humans can move their jaws both ways.

Supplementation is common and recommended for most modern diets. I have not claimed vegan diets are more natural than an omnivorous diet. I am claiming that the ideal omnivore's diet consumes minuscule amounts of meat (read the China Study). If, for reasons based on personal beliefs a person wishes to forgo that small amount and supplement instead, it is no less healthy--in many cases, it is healthier than average modern diets.

What is natural or not is entirely irrelevant because either everything human beings do is natural--we're all doing it, after all, how can it not be natural? It's like saying you could ever be anywhere but "here" from your own point of view. Or, everything humans do is unnatural and judging any behavior based on a scale of "natural" versus "natural" is absurd.

I have watched food inc. Plants are carbon neutral. More plants are grown now to feed the animals humans eat than are grown to feed human beings, so if it would be a problem, it already is. What do you think the mpg is of every cooled shipping truck that distributes meat from mass farm to all corners of a country?

Quinoa is rammed with carbs...
I asked " What other good sources of protein are out there that are equivalent to meat?". The carb content of quinoa instantly means it's not a source of protein, but a source of carbs, with a little bit of protein on the side for good measure.
All of those vegs are lacking in protein (~30g per 100g) and the volume you would require is not realistic either. The protein to calorie ratio is far worse in veg as meat is almost 100% protein. That guy really doesn't look like a bodybuilder. I'm talking guys who are 15+ stone of muscle; that guy isn't even 14 stone.
If we are omnivores then we should eat meat...We can move our jaws left and right but now go and chew like a cow. It doesn't work as our teeth are designed to work vertically. Why should we eat minuscule amounts of meat when both fat and carbs turn into fat? Unless you want an obesity epidemic, or reduce the RDA, something has to change.
As I said the grain surplus is due to law, not cattle. As for those shipping trucks, it's better then harvesters, that's for sure, as insulation can help out whereas moving tons of metal is always going to be demanding.

I'm sorry, you've left the realm of facts and reason.

If it has protein in it, it is a source of protein.

Meat is not 100% protein. In the best cases, it's closer to 30% - http://www.livestrong.com/article/535346-the-protein-content-in-chicken/


The protein to calorie ratio can be very good in vegetables and they do not contain cholesterol, like all meat does. I showed you one article about vegan muscle builders--just one--to show that it is possible to build and sustain muscle without meat protein. Regardless, there is no practical reason to be 15+ stone. As I have written over and over, I agree that an ideal diet for omnivores includes a small amount of meat. Vegan and Vegetarians would rather not take part in an industry and culture they are deeply opposed to--instead supplementing and finding other sources of protein rather than contribute to the mass factory farming of livestock. There is already an obesity epidemic and it's not because people aren't eating enough meat. Shipping trucks are not better than harvesters.

If I'm going to have 200g of protein a day, how much veg do I need to eat?
By 100% I meant that meat gives you just protein, and nothing else, per 100g. Veg gives you carbs, meaning a diet with 200g+ of protein gets quickly overtaken by a load of carbs, not to mention the sheer volume of veg needed.
Why are you telling me that I've "left the realm of facts and reason" when your suggestions are ludicrous.
Shipping trucks are better then harvesters - generally x2 the mpg if not more.

Meat provides you with more then just protein there buddy it also contains very useful vitamins and minerals as well as fat.

Edit: Furthermore Shipping trucks operate for long periods of time then harvesters. Plus you still needs a harvester to harvest the corn and grain you feed to your livestock before you ship them. honestly I am not sure what you are trying to imply with this line of thought.

More veg = more harvesters = more pollution. Shipping trucks will always be needed so they are a moot point. Just throwing the thought ball around really.

But less shipping trucks are better then more shipping trucks, yes?

Here is a brief run down on the cycle vegetables and beef go through on their way to the market.

Vegetables:
Planting with machines------> tending with machines--------> harvesting either with machines or without as some crops can't be machanically harvested--------> to market via trucks.

Beef:
Feed corn is planted with machines-------> feed corn is tended with machines-------> feed corn is harvested with machines---------> feed corn is transported to cows to eat via trucks---------> cows are tended-------> cows are transported to slaughterhouses via trucks--------> cows are slaughtered with machines-------> beef is transported to the market via trucks.

I hope you notice that the cycle for beef is basically one chain longer because it effective add a whole another step in the process of getting food to the consumers you could argue the first part of the beef step could be eliminated if the cows are grass feed and to that I would say you are 100% correct but that is a very rare occurrence now a days and I urge everyone to support such practices if it is with in your means.

And I am not pointing out that veggies are better I am simply point out that your arguement is based on poorly research information and faulty logic.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

Beef:
Feed corn is planted with machines-------> feed corn is tended with machines-------> feed corn is harvested with machines---------> feed corn is transported to cows to eat via trucks---------> cows are tended-------> cows are transported to slaughterhouses via trucks--------> cows are slaughtered with machines-------> beef is transported to the market via trucks.

There's also the bit where they're not feeding the cows once, but throughout their entire development.

 

[RoBi3.0]

It seem to me that you only see in extremes, as there doesn't appear to be any middle ground, with you. Yes commercial produced chicken are not treated well. That however doesn't mean that it is impossible to get eggs from a chicken without caging it up. I know quite a few people that keep chicken for eggs and let them roam about at their leisure. These people might also have a cold fusion reactor in their basements I suppose or maybe they have magic chickens or maybe just maybe you can keep chickens for their eggs without caging them up.

No I do not buy canned lentils. In fact I do not buy a large amount of canned food generally because of sodium content and the fact that typically it is cheaper to make most canned stuffs if you know how and care to, and by doing so I know exactly what went in to it. I use dried in regard to beans and things of that nature. Lentils I just haven't found appealing when I have made them. If you want to provide me with a recipe for good lentils I will try it out. I really want to like lentils as the are super cheap and super healthy, just haven't had much luck with them.

I never implied that that anyone needed to Hawk eye their diets, but they do need to care about them. The fast food industry is enormous simply because people don't care. The fact that the majority of a supermarket is filled with processed food and "boxed" dinners is disturbing. Seriously go to a supermarket and look most of the food they sell there is barely food. That is the problem. If people even paid half as much attention to what they were eating as the lest uptight vegan our national health would improve.

I feel like you're talking over my posts quite a bit. I'm not sure if you're doing that intentionally or if you skipped over it, but at any rate I did specifically mention grocery stores and restaurants as well as the egg industry in my last post. Backyard animals are problematic for other reasons, but I'll concede it's not as intrinsically appalling in the same sense. That said, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the sense that when you talk about these other people who get eggs from animals in their care you're not talking about the eggs you (or the vast, vast majority of people in your country) consume, which means my concerns about the wellbeing of egg laying hens are valid.

As for the lentils, I don't do anything terribly special with them. I'll add them to soups, pasta dishes, curries, or stir fry. Do you have the same issue with peas or beans? I find that, by themselves, they're fairly neutral.

If you didn't mean to imply that vegans had to be super-extra careful about their diets or we'd die of malnutrition or some dross, fine. I've heard some outlandish comments about vegans from people who've only heard about vegans or only know total health-nut vegans, and there's also a lot of misinformation floating around. I'm not a vegan for the health bennies, and I've made no special claims about vegan diets or health, aside from the fact that it can be healthy. And yeah, if people didn't think that $5 for 4-liters of Pepsi was a better deal than spending that money on an occasional vegetable, there'd be less unhealthy people in whichever nation you live in.

If you're really looking to split hairs, you'll find hairs to split, but I'm not going to keep rescue chickens or whatever in my apartment to avoid eating tempeh. (Nor would I be entirely comfortable with that.)

I am not over looking your points on purpose there is a lot of information being passed through this thread so it is hard to track it all. I was not trying to imply you should not have concern for commercial raised chickens if that is your thing, I was nearly pointing out that chicken can be better treated and still be used for eggs, through it does require a drastic downsizing of scale, and land in area where at kind of thing is allowed.

I can cook dried beans and peas very well so it might just be a lentil thing for me. I am not a fan go cooked broccoli either; do love to eat it raw though.

I wasn't trying to imply that Vegans had to be super careful either they do however have to know what they are eating. I am not certain that the average American cares. They only care that its fast and that as little effort possible is needed. America's fixation with red meat and processed food is definitely a hindrance.

I am American, that should probably explain it all. Lol and often times $5 for 4 liters of Pepsi is seen as a better to a lot of Americans. If that were the only problem we would be a hell of a lot better of then we actually are. It will be a long road to plow to change the mind set of a nation, if it is possible at all.

 

[BNguyen]

Growing a garden (with all that entails) or picking up enough greens at the store costs way more than a package of meat.

Are you suggesting that meat is a substitute for... greens? That's the most fucked up thing I've ever heard. If you substitute all your carrots and broccoli for beef, you're going to have a nutritional deficiency. While people can live entirely on a plant-based diet, you can't live entirely on meat. You'll die.

That reminds me of that scene in Food Inc where this family was comparing the cost of broccoli to Pepsi, marveling at how much cheaper Pepsi is than vegetables. It's fucking sugar water.

If you want a fair comparison, compare the cost of meat to legumes. Look at how cheap lentils are. Being a vegan can be very inexpensive.

I never said that, and don't go accusing me of saying that I did.
I was simply stating how difficult it would be in our economy to completely switch over to a vegetarian diet based on how expensive it would be to acquire sufficient amounts of greens to suppliment or take over for our need of meat. Plants may, for the most part, have what we need in terms of vitamins and minerals, but we'd need to eat larger quantities of it to get the same amounts that meat gives us.

 

[Chris OBrien]

Growing a garden (with all that entails) or picking up enough greens at the store costs way more than a package of meat.

Are you suggesting that meat is a substitute for... greens? That's the most fucked up thing I've ever heard. If you substitute all your carrots and broccoli for beef, you're going to have a nutritional deficiency. While people can live entirely on a plant-based diet, you can't live entirely on meat. You'll die.

That reminds me of that scene in Food Inc where this family was comparing the cost of broccoli to Pepsi, marveling at how much cheaper Pepsi is than vegetables. It's fucking sugar water.

If you want a fair comparison, compare the cost of meat to legumes. Look at how cheap lentils are. Being a vegan can be very inexpensive.

I never said that, and don't go accusing me of saying that I did.
I was simply stating how difficult it would be in our economy to completely switch over to a vegetarian diet based on how expensive it would be to acquire sufficient amounts of greens to suppliment or take over for our need of meat. Plants may, for the most part, have what we need in terms of vitamins and minerals, but we'd need to eat larger quantities of it to get the same amounts that meat gives us.

This may be true... if it happened instantaneously. But you're not really citing any facts or numbers. In a 2000 calorie diet, the daily intake of protein needed is easily obtained by eating a balanced, plant-based diet without additional effort*. It seems illogical to assume it would take significantly larger quantities of food to obtain proper nutrients--certainly no more than is already grown to breed, raise, and fatten all the livestock grown for food currently.

*http://www.savvyvegetarian.com/vegetarian-cooking/protein-sample-menus.php - these are some sample menus that show a balanced, vegetarian diet and the intake of nutrients. Another good resource - http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.htm

And he's right. Your comparison was flawed. You should compare the cost of raising a cow to growing a garden. Aside from the cost, it will take years before the cow is edible. Most plants can be eaten within months of being planted.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

Growing a garden (with all that entails) or picking up enough greens at the store costs way more than a package of meat.

Are you suggesting that meat is a substitute for... greens? That's the most fucked up thing I've ever heard. If you substitute all your carrots and broccoli for beef, you're going to have a nutritional deficiency. While people can live entirely on a plant-based diet, you can't live entirely on meat. You'll die.

That reminds me of that scene in Food Inc where this family was comparing the cost of broccoli to Pepsi, marveling at how much cheaper Pepsi is than vegetables. It's fucking sugar water.

If you want a fair comparison, compare the cost of meat to legumes. Look at how cheap lentils are. Being a vegan can be very inexpensive.

I never said that, and don't go accusing me of saying that I did.
I was simply stating how difficult it would be in our economy to completely switch over to a vegetarian diet based on how expensive it would be to acquire sufficient amounts of greens to suppliment or take over for our need of meat. Plants may, for the most part, have what we need in terms of vitamins and minerals, but we'd need to eat larger quantities of it to get the same amounts that meat gives us.

As a vegan, you'd think I'd know from experience how much I need to eat. Medically speaking, humans don't need a lot of protein. If you want to go the route of least effort and cost, get fortified soymilk and some legumes and you've covered everything you'll get from meat.

I'd wager a guess that even with fancy tempeh and organic veggies my grocery bill will be a lot lower than yours.

Hell, if you want to save money: http://lifehacker.com/5271178/cook-for-good-plans-meals-for-less-than-two-dollars
No meat. Less than $2 a person per meal. Lots of the meals are vegan. All of them will meet nutritional requirements.

Eating meat isn't cheaper.

 

[Byere]

darn vegetarians... killing all those defenseless plants without a care in the world! All they wanted to do was give you oxygen! Was that so bad!?!?!

 

[Chris OBrien]

darn vegetarians... killing all those defenseless plants without a care in the world! All they wanted to do was give you oxygen! Was that so bad!?!?!

I hate oxygen.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

darn vegetarians... killing all those defenseless plants without a care in the world! All they wanted to do was give you oxygen! Was that so bad!?!?!

If you care about the wellbeing of plants, don't eat animals. What do you think farmed animals eat? Raising livestock harvests far more plants than eating them directly.

 

[Byere]

darn vegetarians... killing all those defenseless plants without a care in the world! All they wanted to do was give you oxygen! Was that so bad!?!?!

If you care about the wellbeing of plants, don't eat animals. What do you think farmed animals eat? Raising livestock harvests far more plants than eating them directly.

Dude... it's called "sarcastic humour". Duh!

 

[darlarosa]

Meat is meat. Food is food. There is not a person in this forum or in this world I would not kill if I had to, for food. Just survival as it is.

Is it survival if you have other options? If so, should eating people be permissible if you feel like it?

There is no reason not to eat people. Functionally our repulsion is in part result of wanting to maintain high population numbers and our of social taboos. There is no reason not to.

I would eat a person. Not ashamed to say it. There are many people on this planet, and some would make for a suitable food source.
Survival as I mentioned it was not the focus of my previous statement. As I said food is food.

 

[EvilRoy]

I don't like PETA but confrontational ads aren't the issue I have with them. If people want to support an industry, why shouldn't they be made to acknowledge the suffering they cause?

http://theconversation.edu.au/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-theres-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands-4659

Forcing acknowledgement.

When cattle, kangaroos and other meat animals are harvested they are killed instantly.

Hahaha, that's a terribly rosy idea of how the Australian meat industry works.

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/animals/multiple-deficiencies-uncovered-in-nsw-abattoirs-20120517-1ytn0.html

I find it genuinely funny that you completely skimmed over the part that talks about how many animals are killed via pest control and farm equipment for crops, to explain to me that animals aren't killed humanely in Australia.

Which brings up an interesting thought though.... Do you feel that the life of a mouse is worth less than the life of a cow? How many prairie dogs need to get run over by a grain thresher before it counts-in your mind-as a single dead chicken?

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

Meat is meat. Food is food. There is not a person in this forum or in this world I would not kill if I had to, for food. Just survival as it is.

Is it survival if you have other options? If so, should eating people be permissible if you feel like it?

There is no reason not to eat people. Functionally our repulsion is in part result of wanting to maintain high population numbers and our of social taboos. There is no reason not to.

I would eat a person. Not ashamed to say it. There are many people on this planet, and some would make for a suitable food source.
Survival as I mentioned it was not the focus of my previous statement. As I said food is food.

So... you've embraced psychopathy? Who cares about how many people (or other sentient creatures) suffer so long as you're happy?

Most people have empathy for others, which is the ability to understand how other people (or other sentient creatures) feel. That usually comes with the understanding that you shouldn't cause people to be in anguish (or, y'know, kill them) if you don't have to. Do you think it's justifiable (or not unjustifiable) for people to hurt you just because they feel like it?

Or are you just talking about 'freegan'ing human corpses that you just happen to find? I'd agree in that case it's just flesh, but the how and where you got it (killing sentient creatures?) does matter on an ethical level. Finding $80 on the ground isn't the same as shooting someone in the head and taking their wallet, even if you can buy a decent pair of headphones with the proceeds either way.

 

[RoBi3.0]

Meat is meat. Food is food. There is not a person in this forum or in this world I would not kill if I had to, for food. Just survival as it is.

Is it survival if you have other options? If so, should eating people be permissible if you feel like it?

There is no reason not to eat people. Functionally our repulsion is in part result of wanting to maintain high population numbers and our of social taboos. There is no reason not to.

I would eat a person. Not ashamed to say it. There are many people on this planet, and some would make for a suitable food source.
Survival as I mentioned it was not the focus of my previous statement. As I said food is food.

There is a tribe in the Pacific, though I don't right remember their exact location. Anyways they as a way to honor their fallen elders consumer their brains after they die. This tribe also is ridden with a degenerative brain disease that functions much like Mad Cow Disease. Transmission of this disease has been linked to the practice of eating the brains of their fallen. So yes there is a good reason not to eat other humans.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

I find it genuinely funny that you completely skimmed over the part that talks about how many animals are killed via pest control and farm equipment for crops, to explain to me that animals aren't killed humanely in Australia.

Which brings up an interesting thought though.... Do you feel that the life of a mouse is worth less than the life of a cow? How many prairie dogs need to get run over by a grain thresher before it counts-in your mind-as a single dead chicken?

How many prairie dogs have to die to harvest feed for chickens held in captivity?

As much as I'd rather inadvertently kill as few wild animals as possible, I'd rather live my life with the possibility of being hit by a car at any day than live a short life of suffering in a cage. I'm sure if there were more vegetarians and vegans, there'd be higher demand for safer farming methods for wildlife. That said, I've yet to see good statistics on the death of animals on grain farms. One test I saw involved a trial of 30 released mice and counted deaths from predators to the fatalities caused by farming, so it's more than a little suspect.

 

[BNguyen]

Long post used to be here, but need to whittle it down:
vegans and vegetarians can eat what they want and say what they want as long as they don't try to force their ideals on me. My enjoyment of meat is a personal choice and frankly, it tastes much better than most greens that I've eaten; however, corn, green beans, and potatoes are still good.

 

[Sperium 3000]

This argument falls short due to a very simple thing: Generalization. Whoever said you can't love animals if you're not vegetarian clearly fails to realize that the word "animals" does not refer to a single species. Aside from vegetables, every life form on Earth is an animal of some kind, including humans. Let me clarify with an example:

Let's say you grew on a farm that had livestock. For most of your childhood you ate many of the cows your family raised and you were cool with that. Then one day your dad presents you with a little baby cow you call Mooey (stick with me). You fall in love with little Mooey right away, and you raise her, walk around with her, feed her, basically developing the loving relationship any normal person would have with their pet dog or cat. Then Mom makes some BBQ for dinner, and suddenly you don't feel so keen on eating the processed remains of Mooey's family. Chicken and fish is still A-OK, but bovine meat has been written off your personal menu.

See what I mean with the example above? Just because you eat cow meat on a daily basis, doesn't mean you can't love, say, a cat, because it's not a cat that you eat on a daily basis. Your mind understands that these two, cow and cat, are different species all together.