Except, I presume since you're on the Internet, that you're not stranded in a barren fucking tundra without any access to other food? Your point's moot, at best.darlarosa said:
"You can't love animal's if you're not a vegetarian"
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Actually, they had basicly done the vegetarian thing for about a year, eating only fruits and veggies etc, and simply put there just wasnt enough iron in all of that to make up for it. Yes if you eat the right stuff in larger quantities it might make up the difference, but fact is that Meat is still a better supplier of that, amongst other stuff your body requires. Hence their Doctor suggested them suppositories, or eating at least some kind of meat, like chicken for example.RoBi3.0 said:
It just shows that even a vegetarian diet can also be unhealthy, just as eating fatty foods is unhealthy even though we also require fat. Vegans are even worse because well they have to avoid quite alot more, though i aint a expert on it.
The Point i was making however was simply that being a vegetarian, or a vegan, does not make you any better than someone who eats everything, or prefers meat, neither in the sense of health or morals. Hence people ought to stop acting "houlier-than-thou" over their personal preference in food.
so much this i say look at our goddamn teeth we have canines we were built as omivores we are meant to eat meatTanis said:That 'argument' is bad, and whoever makes it should feel bad.
We're animals, that eat meat.
It's part of our evolution, DEAL WIT IT!
and to anyone who agrees with the title tell that to my 2 cats one of which is purring on my lap as I type this..
But that's only a partial truth in itself, I love eating chicken but I think chickens are cute, I'd have a pet chook if I had the room and time for it and I wouldn't eat him/her. I suppose it's a matter of whether you can accept that what you're eating was once alive. (I have killed and plucked chickens to be cooked before, it wasn't the nicest feeling killing it but I accepted that. I've also done the same to rabbits.)Mortai Gravesend said:
OT: I think that the statement made in the original post is a bit extreme, It is possible to eat the flesh of an animal and still love them as animals (not their taste necessarily). Animals are bred for consumption all the time and that may be what they are bred specifically for and not just an end result of them being alive. Take rabbits and Guinea pigs as examples, to most of us they are pets, but to a lot of people they are a viable source of food where other options are not available.
Well if you friend eat nothing but white rice and Iceberg lettuce with an occasional apple. It would lead to a problem. I am not saying that is what happened but it would have to have been close. It is very possible to receive enough iron from plant sources, you only need 8 mg daily hell you get 18 mg from standard breakfast cereal. It is also possible to take an iron supplement that is not a suppository I half suspect that your friend's Doctor is a wank or there is an underlying condition you were not made aware of. Regardless for whatever reason it didn't work for your friend. I hope he has gotten better.A-D. said:
Any diet that you don't rightly care about what you eat is a recipe for poor health vegetarian or not. I worked for sometime at a restaurant with a women that claimed to be a vegetarian and therefor couldn't eat the employee meals we provided. We would of course make her a substitute of her choice. The entire time she worked there I never once saw that women eat a vegetable she was however very fond of our desserts. Non meat eating or not that type of diet can't diet healthy in the long run.
I personally am not fond of holier-than-thou types either. So I feel you there.
I didn't skim over it. I am aware that small animals are shredded by harvesting machines. However, the article was clearly biased and falsely depicted the situation of farm animals. For every mouse shredded there is a cow or pig horrifically slaughtered. For every poisoned prairie dog (which we don't have in Australia) there is a river ecosystem destroyed by animal waste from farms running into the water. In fact, I would say that shredded mice probably don't even reach the amount of shredded chickens, which are casually tossed into a grinding machine after they hatch if they are male, because they cannot be used for meat or eggs. I don't think our methods of farming and harvesting plants are ideal. Obviously we still need to be conscious of what we eat and how it is produced, even with a vegetarian diet. However, your article was fucking bullshit. We cause destruction by existing, but we must aim to minimise that destruction as best we can, and I think a vegetarian diet is a start until we are able to mass produce in-vitro meat. As long as the current meat industry is as profitable as it is there is no incentive to invest in such expensive endeavours. Unfortunately that's how our shitty capitalist system works.EvilRoy said:
Quite a stupid statement. I remember at some point I've spent summer in the country, several years in a row, and had some pet chickens there. Really loved those birds. Naturally, we didn't eat them (unless you count eggs). But that never stopped me from buying and eating chicken, you know, chickens I don't know personally I'll eat happily.
That's a good example. Most people will never eat cat or any other common pet.
Also, another example I had pet crayfish for many years, even bred them. And yet I never had problems buying crayfish on a market and eating them.
It all kinda looks like double standard, but I think it's perfectly normal, even for humanity in general.
P.S. Do you know chickens die around the age of 15?
That's a good example. Most people will never eat cat or any other common pet.
Also, another example I had pet crayfish for many years, even bred them. And yet I never had problems buying crayfish on a market and eating them.
It all kinda looks like double standard, but I think it's perfectly normal, even for humanity in general.
P.S. Do you know chickens die around the age of 15?
yeah sure i enjoy a good burger now and then. but i love my two cats too, so that's kinda bullshit
I'm not a vegetarian and I like animals just fine, love is a strong word, I just hope its platonic and not creepy. Not saying this to offend, just that some people love their animals in a wrong way.
That was just an example. My point is not moot at all. My point was food is food as I've been saying over and over. If we ate each other there is nothing factually wrong with that, by nature we are meat. The only thing "wrong" with it comes from whatever perspective culture you come from. Various places and civilizations engaged in cannibalism for centuries without noted issue, some places still do. I gave examples of circumstances but I am not saying they are necessary or the only times when human flesh can/should be consumed. I am not putting a value judgement on things. You are so we're just talking past each other.ThrobbingEgo said:
You have to understand that to you, it's just a choice between chicken or beef for dinner tonight. For them, it's not just about what's tasty, it's about raising awareness of a world of social issues and the implications of the choices we make every time we cook dinner.A-D. said:
Calling it a "high horse" or "holier-than-thou" implies they have no interest in changing the world for the better, only in feeling better than the world (it's also an easy way to write them off, ignore their points, and continue one's current pattern of behavior). I do not think the majority of people, vegan, vegetarian, or otherwise operate this way. If a vegan or vegetarian tries to talk to you about their dietary choices, take a moment to think about how the conversation started. It's not always the vegans who fire the first shot--usually it's meat-eaters who make uninvited and uniformed comments about their diets.
The iron content in chicken--the example you provide--is about 0.30 milligrams per 100 grams of chicken. The iron content of quinoa is 1.5 milligrams per 100 grams. The iron content of spinach is 2.7 milligrams per 100 grams.
Just to break it down even more clearly:
Chicken Iron 0.30 mg/100g
Quinoa Iron 1.50 mg/100g
Spinach Iron 2.70 mg/100g
Your friend ate an unhealthy diet. Iron is readily available in plant sources.
Speaking of anecdotal evidence: my girlfriend has been vegan for over a year. She has Thalassemia (a blood disorder resulting in anemia). In her most recent blood work, she had perfect iron levels. For most vegans and vegetarians, their adopted diet is far healthier than their previous diet, even if it isn't perfect--and for most of them, dealing with filling those nutritional gaps is worth removing themselves from an industry and culture with which they disagree.
Most vegans and vegetarians adopted their diets, meaning they had to put aside social training, family traditions, and powerful peer pressure to learn about and transition to their diets and then maintain them. They came to the painful conclusion that they were uncomfortable with the lifestyle they had been leading--and the diets they were taught to believe were correct and natural--and then decided to change their behavior, often despite the ridicule of family and friends. I fail to see how this is closed-minded.A-D. said:
Actually i didnt intend to start a giant debate about how healthy or unhealthy that diet would be, im not a vegetarian, or vegan, so i have no clue, i merely pointed out with the example that a Friend of mine did try and essentially fucked up, meaning everyone can fuck up any type of diet regardless of how "morally sound" it is. All i see, and i mentioned that is basicly half the People here being way too aggressive and using examples that are so far out there to attack others with. For example, comparing a carnivore to nazis, thats such a massive leap of logic its not even funny.Chris OBrien said:
Hence getting off the high horse, not all vegetarians or vegans are like that obviously, but some really are. Its the equivalent of a borderline fanatic religious person, in that they shove their lifestyle choice in your face and if you do not agree with any of their thoughts you're essentially the worst person on the planet. At least according to their logic, and yes they dont speak for everybody but they are sadly the most vocal part.
In short, again, no point being all "houlier-than-thou" over food, there are still more serious problems than whether you eat plants or not. And as a sidenote, if everyone started being vegetarian now? Well, i hope you guys like worldwide famine, because 7 Billion People eating nothing but grown food? Yeah we dont have the space to even make as much food as we'd need.
Thank you for this point, most people seem to forget how little land there is that is available for growing crops when most of it has unsuitable soil, is too rocky, is already in use for various reasons like our living space, protected natural habitats and parks, is desert or tundra, or is being used by animals. The most likely choice to help spread crop land would be to push the animals out seeing as how most other suitable places are protected by the government or used for pointless reasons (looking at racetracks and sports stadiums).A-D. said:
But, maybe in all likelihood we can develop something along the lines of skyscrapers re-purposed to grow indoor crops like greenhouse towers, and even though these would take us less space that widespread growing fields, it would still take several cities worth of greenhouse towers to feed everyone.
It wasn't bullshit, it was simply every bit as biased as the articles you and others have quoted earlier in the thread.manic_depressive13 said:
Beyond that, though the statistics are likely off, the point is entirely valid. It's not one to one. A death of one cow to produce one handful of protein vs the death of how many pest animals to produce one handful of plant protein.
You can argue that cows are fed feed that has (usually) some type of mechanically harvested grain in it, and that grain itself is harvested at the cost pest animal lives. So the problem becomes one where we need to calculate the optimal death per kilogram protein. It is highly unlikely that eating only animal protein or only plant protein will yield the minimum death per kilogram protein. If you would like to produce some statistics that you find more favourable, then it would be a pretty small job for me to just do it in excel. Keep in mind though that I'll need both values for animals dead due to feed harvesting, and animals dead due to plant protein harvesting, plus the average feed intake of a cow to slaughter.
You've chosen to bring up ecosystem damage, but the pesticides and fertilizers used in your average farmland are going to do just as much if not more damage to the environment.
And a last side note. You shouldn't really use the 'animals inhumanely slaughtered' argument. You can argue they aren't humanely raised, but saying they are slaughtered in a cruel manner just makes me think that you have no idea how animals die in the wild.
Edit:
Now that I've thought about it a moment longer, I'll also need you to dig up for me what % animal feed is actually plant based, rather than filler from other sources.
I had one person tell me that because I'm an atheist I can never do any just or moral act because my motive to do good doesn't come from a belief in a make-believe entity. I shrugged my shoulders and replied with 'I do good because I want to do good, not because some fictional character told me I'd burn in hell if I didn't.' I can't remember where I'd heard that from but it certainly shut him up.
Back on topic, people are assholes. Extremists of any group or click are extreme assholes. Just human nature to try and feel superior to others. Yes, I also see the irony.
Back on topic, people are assholes. Extremists of any group or click are extreme assholes. Just human nature to try and feel superior to others. Yes, I also see the irony.