You don't have to be afraid of taking a public stance against #GamerGate.

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Vigormortis

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The only thing we need to be afraid of is the final, utter death of rational debate and reasonable thinking. As it is, all sides of this "debate", or whatever you want to call it nowadays, are so muddled in hyperbole, fallacious arguments, hypocrisy, double-standards, and libelous statements it's a wonder anyone can make sense of it. Hell, even the debates occurring in this very thread see both sides being guilty of the above; all while accusing the other side of doing the same.

Frankly, it's all depressingly laughable at this point. I can count on one hand the number of 'celebrity' voices currently engaged in this discussion that have any semblance of rationality and non-bias. Sadly, their voices have been drowned out by the screams of anti-GGers and pro-GGers, as well as those feigning apathy or neutrality.

And people ask me why I've become a misanthrope in recent years...
 

Jux

Hmm
Sep 2, 2012
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Quote function isn't working atm.

'hate campaign'? That's a pretty strong claim. Is gg a hate campaign for lobbying intel to pull sponsorship from gamasutra?
You didn't think it it was a hate campaign against Intel. Even though it was.
A question mark is usually an indicator of a question. You say that intel received threats and accusations of misogyny. On a campaign wide scale. Surely there is some evidence of this right?

You say its not industry wide so it doesn't matter. it does matter, and it is an industry wide problem when the entire industry isn't condemning it.
I disagree. It would be nice if the industry as a whole condemned harassment, but when you told me I should be condemning the industry for harassment, that implies the industry as a whole is engaging in harassment. Which I don't see, so I can't see it as an industry wide issue.

You refused to see an industry wide problem when it is blatant. That means you refuse to acknowledge why we are angry and therefore belittling it.
Blatant to who? Just because I don't agree with your viewpoint doesn't mean I refuse to acknowledge that you're angry, nor was I belittling you. In fact I can prove it, I sent a PM to you specifically regarding this. Here's the text. If you want a screen cap on top of that, I can provide one later tonight after I get home.

Hey, I wanted to apologize for telling you to 'calm your shit' in that last PM. It was uncalled for. I trust that you are angry about all this, and I got a bit defensive.

That said, I still don't agree with gamergate as a movement, but do support better journalistic standards for the industry.
You care more about making GG look bad than anything else, more than willing to make up shit just to slander it like lying about where the Wu death threat came from. Harassment is only a tool for you to grind your axe with your personal bias.

This more than says you don't care for harassment only until you can use it as a bargaining chip.
Do I care about not letting gg lie about it's orgins, and pointing out inconsistencies in it's mission statement? Absolutely. Did I make anything up about where the Brianna Wu threat came from? Absolutely not. Your personal opinion on 'me using harassment' is only your opinion. You haven't provided a shred of evidence for it, yet repeat it like a broken record as if it's stated fact.

I don't care if you personally, or gg as a whole goes after harassment. If ya'll do, great. But I don't care, because as far as I can see, it's not part of gg's mission.

This too, you don't care what gamergate or notyourshield finds, only that you find more spin to slander it.

When you slander gamergate, you slander notyourshield.
BS. Not only have I never slandered gg, gg is not the same thing as notyourshield. Criticising one is not criticising the other. To paint it as such is highly dishonest.

When you slander notyourshield, you are belittling minorities and their feelings on hateful media.
Which I have never done.

and you see where I am going with this. You are working with the same hateful journalists who want this gone so they can post about how much they hate the jews and black men.

You are enabling the journalists to say whatever because of your personal hang ups at the expense of minorities.
I can see where you're trying to go with this, and it isn't working.

I am still waiting on a quote where I have belittled minorities. I'm still waiting on a source that journalists set their fans on people, and that I defended that.
 

Plunkies

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Oct 31, 2007
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altnameJag said:
Plunkies said:
Really? You want to play this game?
-snipped horribleness-
Sucks when they're on the receiving end of the stuff they dish out, isn't it?
Yeah, predictable. Minimize it. Act like when one side does it it's the end of the world and proof that an entire group of people are worthy of condemnation, but when the side you agree with does it it's not big deal and the people deserve it. You prove yourself to be a hypocrite. Next time, keep it to yourself.
 

irishda

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Dec 16, 2010
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Ajna said:
Jux said:
broadcaststatic said:
Aye, and for a movement that's supposedly moved past it's misogynistic roots, they can kindly tell that to Brianna Wu. What's your channel? And tippy, most people have abandoned the gg thread, it's an echochamber. Any sort of criticism of it just gets lost, ignored, or met with the same talking points.
What misogynistic roots? You mean calling a journalist out on giving positive press to a woman who slept with him?

It was the woman and the journalist in question who shifted the focus onto her. The issue gamergate had was always with him.
That's why the main thread from that time (the largest Escapist thread ever) was titled "Nathan Grayson and the Surrounding Controversy".

*Pssst! It wasn't called that*

Anti-GG amounts to "lots of the people on the internet are trying to ruin people's livelihoods over an imagined slight". GG amounts to "we don't want people telling us our games are being sexist/racist anymore"
Fixed those for you.

there is no collusion
There's the second largest thread in Escapist history saying otherwise. If people agree to do things together, that's called collusion.

You cannot remove someone's anger by debating their right to be angry, you can only remove it by removing the source for their anger.
Or, and this is particularly true if they're mad over trivial and inconsequential things, they can mature and develop a better perspective on life. That sure helps normal people stop being angry. The anti-GG crowd knows what you guys are mad about. It's not a secret, or hard to decipher. You want SJWs out of your gaming journalism.
 

irishda

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Dec 16, 2010
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Ajna said:
There are several developers who have come out and said that they've been threatened and bullied by journos into changing their games in order to suit what the journos would rather see. Look into the issues with the CM for Mighty No. 9 (the "spiritual successor" to Mega Man) if you don't believe me.
No they aren't. And I'm worried about what you read about Mighty 9, because everything I looked up said the fans were mad because the company hired an "SJW" as a community manager (read: Person not even in charge of developing the game at all). So the example you point us to to highlight journos bullying developers because of what they'd like to see instead shows us gamers bullying a developer because of what they'd like to see.

"Gamers are NOT whiny and immature!" -Gamers
 

Nikolaz72

This place still alive?
Apr 23, 2009
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irishda said:
Ajna said:
There are several developers who have come out and said that they've been threatened and bullied by journos into changing their games in order to suit what the journos would rather see. Look into the issues with the CM for Mighty No. 9 (the "spiritual successor" to Mega Man) if you don't believe me.
No they aren't. And I'm worried about what you read about Mighty 9, because everything I looked up said the fans were mad because the company hired an "SJW" as a community manager (read: Person not even in charge of developing the game at all). So the example you point us to to highlight journos bullying developers because of what they'd like to see instead shows us gamers bullying a developer because of what they'd like to see.

"Gamers are NOT whiny and immature!" -Gamers
She got hired as a CM but did artwork and participated in developement.

Do your own research before you try to smear others.
 

irishda

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Dec 16, 2010
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Nikolaz72 said:
irishda said:
Ajna said:
There are several developers who have come out and said that they've been threatened and bullied by journos into changing their games in order to suit what the journos would rather see. Look into the issues with the CM for Mighty No. 9 (the "spiritual successor" to Mega Man) if you don't believe me.
No they aren't. And I'm worried about what you read about Mighty 9, because everything I looked up said the fans were mad because the company hired an "SJW" as a community manager (read: Person not even in charge of developing the game at all). So the example you point us to to highlight journos bullying developers because of what they'd like to see instead shows us gamers bullying a developer because of what they'd like to see.

"Gamers are NOT whiny and immature!" -Gamers
She got hired as a CM but did artwork and participated in developement.

Do your own research before you try to smear others.
I'm sorry. I thought we were talking about how journos brow beat the developer into hiring her (they have this power) instead of fans being pissed about her presence after that fact. My apologies.
 

Nikolaz72

This place still alive?
Apr 23, 2009
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irishda said:
Nikolaz72 said:
irishda said:
Ajna said:
There are several developers who have come out and said that they've been threatened and bullied by journos into changing their games in order to suit what the journos would rather see. Look into the issues with the CM for Mighty No. 9 (the "spiritual successor" to Mega Man) if you don't believe me.
No they aren't. And I'm worried about what you read about Mighty 9, because everything I looked up said the fans were mad because the company hired an "SJW" as a community manager (read: Person not even in charge of developing the game at all). So the example you point us to to highlight journos bullying developers because of what they'd like to see instead shows us gamers bullying a developer because of what they'd like to see.

"Gamers are NOT whiny and immature!" -Gamers
She got hired as a CM but did artwork and participated in developement.

Do your own research before you try to smear others.
I'm sorry. I thought we were talking about how journos brow beat the developer into hiring her (they have this power) instead of fans being pissed about her presence after that fact. My apologies.
Actually she got hired via nepotism. Both the company and herself admits the fact. Her boyfriend is/was one of the people responsible for hiring.

Being a community manager made the fans simmering. What got them flaming was when she started doing concepting and the likes for them, it just seems like someone whose never touched a megaman game and who spammed SJW propaganda about how the protagonist should be a girl and the plot should be completely different from anything else they had done previously on the Kickstarter page shouldn't anywhere near concepting or art design. Or Community Manager position for that matter.

If it was about hiring a woman I'm sure there were enough Japaneese women who could speak english and had played megaman games around that they did not have to hire a white one with skewered ideals and a bad handle on the community as a community manager.

Nevertheless, they've lost a lot of money recently from people doing chargebacks as a result of her idiocy. Hopefully they bankrupt themself on the stupid decision to hire someone based on nepotism, it's never worked out.
 

irishda

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Dec 16, 2010
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Nikolaz72 said:
Actually she got hired via nepotism. Both the company and herself admits the fact. Her boyfriend is/was one of the people responsible for hiring.
So the original person's point that she was hired because journalists hounded the developer into hiring her, thus proving that journalists have become a horrible entity that can control us all, is wrong? Got it.

Being a community manager made the fans simmering. What got them flaming was when she started doing concepting and the likes for them, it just seems like someone whose never touched a megaman game and who spammed SJW propaganda on the Kickstarter page shouldn't anywhere near concepting or art design. Or Community Manager position for that matter.
I don't know why someone arguing about greater inclusion in games is a problem for both concept art and managing a community. But then perhaps that's why I'm anti-GG in general.
 

Nikolaz72

This place still alive?
Apr 23, 2009
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irishda said:
Nikolaz72 said:
Actually she got hired via nepotism. Both the company and herself admits the fact. Her boyfriend is/was one of the people responsible for hiring.
So the original person's point that she was hired because journalists hounded the developer into hiring her, thus proving that journalists have become a horrible entity that can control us all, is wrong? Got it.

Being a community manager made the fans simmering. What got them flaming was when she started doing concepting and the likes for them, it just seems like someone whose never touched a megaman game and who spammed SJW propaganda on the Kickstarter page shouldn't anywhere near concepting or art design. Or Community Manager position for that matter.
I don't know why someone arguing about greater inclusion in games is a problem for both concept art and managing a community. But then perhaps that's why I'm anti-GG in general.
The problem was mostly that she had no idea what made a megaman game good having never played one and had infact been insulting megaman fans. She just seemed like the wrong person to hire as a bridge between the community and the company.

What with not knowing the first thing about megaman, and already having made herself an enemy of the community at the time she was hired.

Journalists mostly defended the nepotism which is where I think the person you originally spoke to came from. If not for the positive media coverage of her, and if not for the fact that she's a she- she would have been fired long ago for being toxic to the community and possibly single handedly causing the company bankruptcy mid-development.
 

Jux

Hmm
Sep 2, 2012
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Ultratwinkie said:
http://www.brightsideofnews.com/2014/10/02/gamergate-intel-faces-backlash-for-pulling-gamasutra-ads/
http://www.theverge.com/2014/10/2/6886747/intel-buckles-to-anti-feminist-campaign-by-pulling-ads-from-gaming
http://www.dailydot.com/geek/intel-pulls-ads-from-gamasutra/

yeah, there was backlash.
Backlash isn't the same thing as a hate campaign. Where is the harassment that intel is supposedly facing?

Gamergate and #Notyourshield are one and the same. They're both tied to each other. #notyourshield spawned from gamergate.
They aren't the same, sorry. One is supposedly a movement against corrupt journalism, the other is calling out people for using minorities as a shield against criticism.

I snipped the rest because you're obfuscating. You claimed I belittled minorities and that journalists not only set their fans on people, but that I defended such a thing. Until you either provide evidence for such a thing, or apologize for trying to smear me, I'm going to simply snip every soapbox speech you give as a response that doesn't address this and reiterate that I'm still waiting for quotes and sources.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Plunkies said:
Yeah, predictable. Minimize it. Act like when one side does it it's the end of the world and proof that an entire group of people are worthy of condemnation, but when the side you agree with does it it's not big deal and the people deserve it. You prove yourself to be a hypocrite. Next time, keep it to yourself.
Odd, I've been saying that a small, loud, toxic minority who pretend to be the ur-gamer is the problem. The fact that those asshats started a massive whining session when forums kicked them out for being horrible has expanded into this whole "journalistic integrity" thing is odd to me. Seems seeing one group of "gamers" getting called on their shit doesn't mean "all gamers" are getting attacked. I've been a gamer for 20 years and nothing in those "Gamers are Dead" articles were an attack on me or any of the gamers I know.

Because the gamers I know aren't asshats.

For that matter, I wasn't claiming it was "the end of the world", I'm saying that the articles GG is having a whine fest over didn't happen in a vacuum. Loud "gamers" being toxic little shits has been a problem for a long time now, and this sort of thing happens whenever anybody dares call them on their shit.
 

Jux

Hmm
Sep 2, 2012
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altnameJag said:
Plunkies said:
Yeah, predictable. Minimize it. Act like when one side does it it's the end of the world and proof that an entire group of people are worthy of condemnation, but when the side you agree with does it it's not big deal and the people deserve it. You prove yourself to be a hypocrite. Next time, keep it to yourself.
Odd, I've been saying that a small, loud, toxic minority who pretend to be the ur-gamer is the problem. The fact that those asshats started a massive whining session when forums kicked them out for being horrible has expanded into this whole "journalistic integrity" thing is odd to me. Seems seeing one group of "gamers" getting called on their shit doesn't mean "all gamers" are getting attacked. I've been a gamer for 20 years and nothing in those "Gamers are Dead" articles were an attack on me or any of the gamers I know.

Because the gamers I know aren't asshats.

For that matter, I wasn't claiming it was "the end of the world", I'm saying that the articles GG is having a whine fest over didn't happen in a vacuum. Loud "gamers" being toxic little shits has been a problem for a long time now, and this sort of thing happens whenever anybody dares call them on their shit.
I'll second this. I looked at those articles, and while I felt some of them were a bit over the top, not once did I feel any of that was directed at me.
 

TheSYLOH

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Feb 5, 2010
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You also don't have to be afraid to say you don't care one way or another.

Simply put, even at this point I don't even know which side is which.
How has that affected me?
In no way, shape or form!

Seriously, there's a fairly arbitrary line drawn in the sand that two groups are shouting across, with nobody changing their minds and nothing at stake.

Why bother?
 

Ticklefist

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Jul 19, 2010
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GamerGate is something you become involved with when you have a tenuous grasp on what's important in life.
 

Slayer4472

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Sep 1, 2014
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Jux said:
altnameJag said:
Plunkies said:
Yeah, predictable. Minimize it. Act like when one side does it it's the end of the world and proof that an entire group of people are worthy of condemnation, but when the side you agree with does it it's not big deal and the people deserve it. You prove yourself to be a hypocrite. Next time, keep it to yourself.
Odd, I've been saying that a small, loud, toxic minority who pretend to be the ur-gamer is the problem. The fact that those asshats started a massive whining session when forums kicked them out for being horrible has expanded into this whole "journalistic integrity" thing is odd to me. Seems seeing one group of "gamers" getting called on their shit doesn't mean "all gamers" are getting attacked. I've been a gamer for 20 years and nothing in those "Gamers are Dead" articles were an attack on me or any of the gamers I know.

Because the gamers I know aren't asshats.

For that matter, I wasn't claiming it was "the end of the world", I'm saying that the articles GG is having a whine fest over didn't happen in a vacuum. Loud "gamers" being toxic little shits has been a problem for a long time now, and this sort of thing happens whenever anybody dares call them on their shit.
I'll second this. I looked at those articles, and while I felt some of them were a bit over the top, not once did I feel any of that was directed at me.
I apologize, but I disagree. I also read the articles in question, and I felt that they were targeted at me; that's why I'm part of GamerGate.
 

Jux

Hmm
Sep 2, 2012
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Slayer4472 said:
I apologize, but I disagree. I also read the articles in question, and I felt that they were targeted at me; that's why I'm part of GamerGate.
What specifically about the article(s) made you feel you were a target? (no need to apologize for having a different opinion, it's not like you've tried smearing me because I don't agree with you)
 

Jux

Hmm
Sep 2, 2012
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Ultratwinkie said:
You seem to be confusing 'criticism of a business decision' with 'hate campaign'. Where are the quotes where I belittled minorities? Where is the source that journalists 'set their fans' on people, or a quote on where I defended such a thing?
 

Slayer4472

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Sep 1, 2014
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Jux said:
Slayer4472 said:
I apologize, but I disagree. I also read the articles in question, and I felt that they were targeted at me; that's why I'm part of GamerGate.
What specifically about the article(s) made you feel you were a target? (no need to apologize for having a different opinion, it's not like you've tried smearing me because I don't agree with you)
The use of the adjective Gamer, in all honesty. If Leigh Alexander had said "harassers need to fuck off" then I'd have gone about my day. But she described me as a "obtuse shitslinger" and a "wailing hyperconsumer", and I don't particularly appreciate that. Speaking as someone who has to deal with shit like this:

http://www.gty.org/resources/Articles/A170/Gods-Plan-for-the-Gay-Agenda

I don't want my... well, I don't like the term 'safe space'... my area of equality and meritocracy to be invaded by nutters.
 

Plunkies

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Oct 31, 2007
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altnameJag said:
Plunkies said:
Yeah, predictable. Minimize it. Act like when one side does it it's the end of the world and proof that an entire group of people are worthy of condemnation, but when the side you agree with does it it's not big deal and the people deserve it. You prove yourself to be a hypocrite. Next time, keep it to yourself.
Odd, I've been saying that a small, loud, toxic minority who pretend to be the ur-gamer is the problem. The fact that those asshats started a massive whining session when forums kicked them out for being horrible has expanded into this whole "journalistic integrity" thing is odd to me. Seems seeing one group of "gamers" getting called on their shit doesn't mean "all gamers" are getting attacked. I've been a gamer for 20 years and nothing in those "Gamers are Dead" articles were an attack on me or any of the gamers I know.

Because the gamers I know aren't asshats.

For that matter, I wasn't claiming it was "the end of the world", I'm saying that the articles GG is having a whine fest over didn't happen in a vacuum. Loud "gamers" being toxic little shits has been a problem for a long time now, and this sort of thing happens whenever anybody dares call them on their shit.
You can't even get your own story straight. On the one hand you say it's a small minority and then praise the articles that say "Gamers are Dead." Strange, they didn't say "A Small Minority of Vocal Gamers are Dead," did they? A coordinated attack on all gamers by a series of media outlets was necessary to call out a small vocal minority? How is that even a single news story, let alone worthy of a massive coordinated smear campaign?

This is what you do. You act like the transgressions on your side are justified and the targets of those actions deserve it, but when it's reversed they're all toxic and need to be put in their place. As I said before, hypocrite. But do keep trying to excuse the awful behavior of your side, I can at least appreciate the mental gymnastics required.