You don't have to be afraid of taking a public stance against #GamerGate.

shrekfan246

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May 26, 2011
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sataricon said:
shrekfan246 said:
redlemon said:
Caostotale said:
OT: Fuck 'taking a stance' against Gamergate. Rather, I'll be taking a seat...in front of my television, where I'll be playing my games and temporarily forgetting about all these clowns who care more about fatuous internet drama than gaming or anything more important than the internet drama itself. As I've said before, pre-GG gaming must really have been disappointing or empty to all of those who've decided to invest this much energy into fantastical silliness of this sort. As well, I have trouble believing that those feelings of disappointment and malaise had anything to do with journalistic corruption or overwhelming amounts of leftism skewing the games' contents.
If you're going wait until these issues start affecting your everyday life before taking action, then it's probably too late to do anything about it.
You realize we're talking about video games, right?

Like, literally the worst thing that will ever happen out of "corrupt" journalists pushing a game is that I'll have to look a little more heavily into it in other places before I decide whether I'm going to buy it or not.

And people talking about sociopolitical subjects as they relate to video games? I highly doubt that is literally ever going to impact my everyday life in any way. In fact, the more I actually avoid threads like this one or that megathread, the more it gets reinforced to me how little everything "gamers" have been bitching about for nigh on two months now actually impacts my life.
Now that is a position i can understand.
I wish i were like you.
It's one of the primary reasons I've never really understood practically any of the internet drama I've experienced. At least not to the degree that people tend to take it. Honestly, people getting upset about things and subsequently bringing them here to The Escapist affects me far more than the actual things they're getting upset about.

Don't get me wrong, I can understand people being upset by the ending of Mass Effect 3. I can understand them being upset by Diablo III being always online, or DmC running at 30 FPS on consoles. But it's always the sheer vitriolic level that people take their feelings to that just astounds me. There are ways of voicing displeasure that don't extend to making people feel miserable about the jobs they do, you know? Or making everyone you get into a conversation with on the internet about said topics feel like there's a battle-line being drawn, and they're on opposing sides of the artillery charge.
 

sataricon

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The thing is if you love something or hate something then chances are you'll get upset about it.
It's like mass effect 3 ending "funny that you mention that i just mentioned it in another thread"

When mass effect 3 ended i couldn't even give a shit about it because bioware have been getting worse and worse over the years to the point that this lazy ending wasn't s surprise to me.
I didn't raise a fit but i did enjoy the drama.

PS:
BTW even the extended ending was crap as it didn't answer any thing....just me saying.
 

QuicklyAcross

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shrekfan246 said:
sataricon said:
shrekfan246 said:
redlemon said:
Caostotale said:
OT: Fuck 'taking a stance' against Gamergate. Rather, I'll be taking a seat...in front of my television, where I'll be playing my games and temporarily forgetting about all these clowns who care more about fatuous internet drama than gaming or anything more important than the internet drama itself. As I've said before, pre-GG gaming must really have been disappointing or empty to all of those who've decided to invest this much energy into fantastical silliness of this sort. As well, I have trouble believing that those feelings of disappointment and malaise had anything to do with journalistic corruption or overwhelming amounts of leftism skewing the games' contents.
If you're going wait until these issues start affecting your everyday life before taking action, then it's probably too late to do anything about it.
You realize we're talking about video games, right?

Like, literally the worst thing that will ever happen out of "corrupt" journalists pushing a game is that I'll have to look a little more heavily into it in other places before I decide whether I'm going to buy it or not.

And people talking about sociopolitical subjects as they relate to video games? I highly doubt that is literally ever going to impact my everyday life in any way. In fact, the more I actually avoid threads like this one or that megathread, the more it gets reinforced to me how little everything "gamers" have been bitching about for nigh on two months now actually impacts my life.
Now that is a position i can understand.
I wish i were like you.
It's one of the primary reasons I've never really understood practically any of the internet drama I've experienced. At least not to the degree that people tend to take it. Honestly, people getting upset about things and subsequently bringing them here to The Escapist affects me far more than the actual things they're getting upset about.

Don't get me wrong, I can understand people being upset by the ending of Mass Effect 3. I can understand them being upset by Diablo III being always online, or DmC running at 30 FPS on consoles. But it's always the sheer vitriolic level that people take their feelings to that just astounds me. There are ways of voicing displeasure that don't extend to making people feel miserable about the jobs they do, you know? Or making everyone you get into a conversation with on the internet about said topics feel like there's a battle-line being drawn, and they're on opposing sides of the artillery charge.
The main reason we cant have this discussion is because we cant have this discussion - TB

The shitflingers on both sides take up the most vocal part of the discourse and so thats the narrative we see because all those tweets get the most attention instead of the more wellspoken ones.
Even the ones i dont agree with i will defend solely on the basis that theyre not misinformed nor too biased in one way but rather: You believe this, but my take on it from this perspective is this and therefore i have my conclusion.
 

sataricon

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Damn it....
Even Boogie2988 got banned from this cluster shit neogaf for just voicing his opinion.

Boogie2988....a milled mannered guy who was extremely calm in all this shit storm got banned.
And people still think we at GG are the trolls or whatever they call us.
Ohh he must be worst than ISIS.

People wake up.
 

Shadowalker

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I've been following Gamer Gate very closely over the last couple of months. I think the movement is reaching what could be a dangerous point, and that some re-assessment of what people really hope to achieve (and can reasonably expect to achieve) should probably be considered, by all sides. Rather than starting yet another thread on the topic, I decided to post more thoughts on Gamer Gate here, since this seems to have become one of the better threads for back-and-forth on the GG topic.

Primarily in the interests of peacemaking, and in trying to de-escalate something that I think is becoming a bit dangerous, I'm going to address both the pro-GG people and the anti-GG/neutrals.


TO PRO-GG:

I understand your anger and dissatisfaction with the writers of the "Gamers are Dead" articles. I certainly understand a desire to have a gaming media that actually likes gamers. That being said, I think there's some things you need to consider:

1. Your movement has been going strong for about two solid months now. You have gained some significant victories, such as new journalism ethics guidelines on this site, and Intel pulling its ads from Gamasutra. Nonetheless, the cold hard facts are that nobody has apologized, and all of the sites you've been going after are still standing. I'm very doubtful that you can change that. The good news for your movement is that I think that major games publishers have probably heard you loud and clear. There is a shift going on from classic game journalism media to YouTube/"Let's Play" reviewers, and Gamer Gate has likely sped up that shift. However, I don't think you can do much more than that. I think at this juncture you probably have to accept that the people who wrote the "Gamers are Dead" articles, and the managers/owners of the sites that hosted them, are never going to apologize. And outright destroying a major website is no small matter, and if you had the numbers to achieve that, it probably would have happened by now. I think you might be somewhat overestimating the strength of your movement.

2. By the same token, I think you're overestimating the influence and strength of some of the people you're opposed to. Bayonetta 2 has been getting largely rave reviews, with only one exception, Polygon. This is in spite of how it was signaled out for criticism by Jonathan Mcintosh, a prominent anti-GG voice. I don't think you're ever going to get the firings/apologies/site destruction some of you would like to get. But I think you have helped make the ideological stance of these sites clear. People who agree with that stance, will continue to make use of them, and people who disagree with that stance, will go elsewhere. What that means is that these sites will be preaching to the choir, to people who are likely already inclined to dislike the games they'll be giving harsh reviews of. However obnoxious or disagreeable or overly politicized you may find these voices to be, I don't think you can completely drive them out of the industry. But you can give voice to other perspectives, and you don't need a hashtag to do it.

3. Let's suppose, just for argument's sake, that Gamer Gate actually manages to destroy Gamasutra. Even if that happens, I don't see Leigh Alexander being completely forced out of the gaming journalism industry. The fact is that she's now become a prominent name in the industry. I have little doubt she could go completely freelance, possibly with a Patreon, if she wanted to. She will likely remain in the gaming journalism industry as long as she wants to be there. I know that for GG this is probably a very bitter pill to swallow, but I'm inclined to think it's the truth. And I don't see how any consumer boycott movement can change that. She's going to have her supporters, because there are some people who share her viewpoints. They alone may well be enough, no ad money necessary. You may well just have to tolerate having these people continue to be in your industry.

I'm a big anime fan, and there are people at Anime News Network that have been openly contemptuous of some anime fans in the past. To the best of my knowledge, they never went as far as the anime equivalent of "Gamers are dead" (which would probably be "otakus are dead"), but they've come close. A lot of anime fans have just learned to ignore these people, at least insofar as they find them offensive. Perhaps those in the GG movement should make the same decision with some gaming journalists.

4. The mainstream TV media is now getting involved. The situation is escalating, well beyond your control. I think you have a numerical advantage on anti-GG (thought not anti-GG plus neutrals) at the moment, but that could change drastically and rapidly. If you lose the numerical advantage, then some of the gains you've made may well be lost, and you may well end up with a situation that's worst for you than where you started. I think one of the central ideas strengthening the GG movement is "The truth is on our side, so we will win." The problem is that Gamer Gate is an extremely complex issue at this point, which people just learning of it now would likely find daunting. There will be a temptation to listen to simple assessments of the movement, and "Hate movement" is a simple assessment.

5. There's been talk of a "nuclear solution" of boycotting the entire video game industry during the holiday season. That could easily backfire. If you don't have the numbers to take down Gamasutra, what makes you think you have the numbers to seriously hurt the video game industry in total? But suppose you actually do succeed in hurting the entire video game industry. Who's to say that your opponents won't be the people there that's picking up the pieces? Honestly, the big publishers are probably as "anti-SJW" as you can hope for, at this juncture.

6. People are in fact getting harassed. There is a lot of people hurting from this, on all sides. Simply from a humanitarian perspective, is the cost worth it? Especially when the likelihood of greater successes is dubious at best?


Taking all of this together - Maybe it's time to stop while you're ahead. You've made some gains, you've probably gained just about everything you can hope to gain (at least when it comes to what you've chosen to focus on), and there's serious risk in continuing on. And you should know that I'm sympathetic to your cause, because I believe strongly in creative freedom (my biggest personal concern with your opponents is that they may curtail that, though that concern has lessened given the reception to Bayonetta 2).

If you really do care about creative freedom, then I would suggest having more to say on Metacritic. From what I've read up on Gamer Gate and the issues surrounding it, I think Metacritic is probably what limits what gamer developers more than anything.



To Anti-GG and Neutrals.

If you truly want for Gamer Gate to end soon, then showing some understanding of where GG supporters are coming from is probably advisable. It seems very clear to me that some of the GG supporters are generally reasonable people who were deeply offended by the "Gamers are Dead" articles. You may disagree with their interpretations of those articles, but that doesn't lessen the offense they felt over them, nor does it mean that their interpretations of those articles are invalid. Personally, I've always considered "Gamer" to be a widely used term for anybody that plays video games a lot. I recall the whole "Hardcore gamers vs. casual gamers" discussions, such as in discussions over the Wii system. To have a "hardcore vs. casual" distinction, suggests that "gamer" alone includes a lot of people. So I think it should be understandable that a lot of decent, everyday people that simply enjoy playing video games a lot were deeply offended by "Gamers are Dead".

To achieve peace, diplomacy and the extending of olive branches is typically necessary. Now may be a good time to try to show understanding to GG supporters so that they can more easily ease off on the movement.
 

shrekfan246

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May 26, 2011
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Houseman said:
shrekfan246 said:
You realize we're talking about video games, right?

Like, literally the worst thing that will ever happen out of "corrupt" journalists pushing a game is that I'll have to look a little more heavily into it in other places before I decide whether I'm going to buy it or not.
Or consider this future: games you otherwise would have bought were canned during production because they refused to buddy up with said corrupt journalists and their agendas and were thus denied the press or the competition victory that they needed to bring their game to market.
Journalists have the power to shut down entire developers or publishers now? Well, that's certainly news to me. Guess I should start telling that to every single really absolutely terrible game that's been released on Steam over the past year. I mean, they've been completely denied press as well (or have received nothing but negative press), so surely they shouldn't actually exist, right?

Or hey, what about Dragon's Crown, right? That got totally destroyed because of its depictions of women, and it ended up getting scrapped and thrown away so that the developers could move on to something more wholesome and agreeable to some nebulous "corrupt agenda", yeah? Oh, wait, no, actually, it released and ended up getting mostly positive reviews. Despite all of the criticism and "controversy" it garnered and despite the few reviews which were inevitably negative because people didn't like the artwork and/or oversexualization.

I apologize if I perhaps seem dismissive, so allow me to actually address your point head-on: A game I was looking forward to ended up being cancelled because a bunch of people on the internet got really mad about it. Grrr. What ever will I do? Wage a crusade against games journalism, stating that I must burn down everything I deem to be unholy in the name of a brighter future, and damn the people caught in the crossfire as acceptable losses? Or will I just move on because there will always be other games, and other books, and other films, and other bands, and other internet videos, and I really have better things to do with my life than get enraged over something that really doesn't actually make my life any worse?

Look what almost happened to TFYC.
They are not a developer themselves. It's arguable that whatever may eventually end up coming out of it wouldn't have been made without their help, but you can't actually prove that.
 

aliengmr

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Houseman said:
shrekfan246 said:
You realize we're talking about video games, right?

Like, literally the worst thing that will ever happen out of "corrupt" journalists pushing a game is that I'll have to look a little more heavily into it in other places before I decide whether I'm going to buy it or not.
Or consider this future: games you otherwise would have bought were canned during production because they refused to buddy up with said corrupt journalists and their agendas and were thus denied the press or the competition victory that they needed to bring their game to market.

Look what almost happened to TFYC.
I guess Steam doesn't exist in this future?

You are working under the assumption that the corrupt media is the only way to get noticed and they aren't. Its entirely possible to never go to these websites at all and still find out about games. They aren't this massive wall.

And what about the debate over games like Gone Home not being "games"? This is primarily brought up by gamers and is damaging in its own right.

What games have been blacklisted for their content? Let's be real here, we are living in a gaming age where Rock Simulator is a thing.

In one aspect GG has likely done much more harm than good. You can't prove this collusion is going on. You can speculate that it might have happened or could have happened, but you can't 100% prove it. This future, which has started to take shape, is one where small time indie devs blame their failures on corruption rather than their own bad ideas. Crying foul at any criticism made because there's a movement waiting with open arms, who won't judge them at all.
 

shrekfan246

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May 26, 2011
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Houseman said:
Speaking of, how many "unheard of" games over Steam have you bought? How often do you find yourself aimlessly browsing the "New Releases" list of Steam, looking for the next GOTY?
I apologize, once again, for not addressing all of your points individually, but I hope you'll understand that I'd rather not get into another long debate. I would like to answer this one, however, because my response is "fairly often", actually. Well, less so lately, but I've searched through a significant portion of Steam's library many times, as I'm always quite curious to find games I've never heard of before. In fact, I'll go through my personal library right now and pick out all of the games I haven't seen very much coverage or discussion of. I will grant that anyone who follows TotalBiscuit will probably have heard of quite a few of them, though.

AaaaaaaAAaaaAAA!!! For the Awesome
Antichamber
Beatbuddy: Tale of the Guardians
Castle of Illusion
Cloudbuilt
Divinity II
Drakensang & sequels
Dust: An Elysian Tail
Eador: Masters of the Broken World
Endless Space
Freedom Planet
Gunpoint
Of Orcs and Men
The Swapper
Valdis Story: Abyssal City

If we include older games, I could also throw in -
Beyond Divinity & Divine Divinity
Sudeki
Freedom Force
Spellforce: Platinum Edition & Spellforce 2: Gold Edition
Septerra Core
Anachronox
Nexus - The Jupiter Incident

Now, obviously this is all based around my own experiences with what kind of coverage I've been exposed to over the years, and it's only been the past four or five that I've actually intently followed websites like The Escapist. So perhaps you've heard of every one of those games, and if so that makes me rather happy. I've never really claimed to have an elite taste in obscure games, and in fact often have a hard time actually coming up with games I would consider to truly be "obscure". But to me they were all games that I didn't know existed until I chanced to search through Steam or Google one day, and to be honest that hits on a problem I do have with games journalism; but it's a problem that has nothing to do with silly sociopolitical agendas.
 

Caostotale

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Houseman said:
Or consider this future: games you otherwise would have bought were canned during production because they refused to buddy up with said corrupt journalists and their agendas and were thus denied the press or the competition victory that they needed to bring their game to market.

Look what almost happened to TFYC.
I've considered your speculation and decided to relegate it to the same rubbish bin as all those 'moral panic' narratives of the past decade about liberals taking everybody's guns away, Obama using his influence to subject our Christian/secular nation to Sharia law, black kids nation-wide using the Knockout game to declare street war on innocent white people, and any number of other conspiratorial nightmare scenarios that get sucked up like catnip by boring and ordinary people who simply can't accept the fact that life is largely (surprise!) boring and ordinary and have to nurture their spiritual voids by banding together with other boring, ordinary people and festooning themselves with slogans, mantras, attitudes, and utopian ideals, all of which feed an illusion that they've been re-awoken as extraordinary, revolutionary, etc... Just like the Alex Jones 'movement', GG's been running its collective face like its members are wearing tri-cornered hats, carrying muskets, and making huge sacrifices to drive the evil redcoats into the sea, when in reality, they're a bunch of LARPers who have descended onto the local public park and ruined a whole bunch of other peoples' Sunday picnics.

By the way, 'Look what almost happened' would be a great slogan for GG.
 

aliengmr

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Houseman said:
I already conceded above that, no, corrupt journalism won't stop games from getting made. But instead:

A) demoralizing the dev or publisher
B) making it unlikely for the game to sell well
C) making it less likely for any future games from the dev to happen.
D) you're less likely to know it exists.
A) Probably shouldn't be developing games in the first place.

B) Capitalism

C) More Capitalism

D) Common problem regardless of any supposed "collusion". Prove that its happening.

What about it? Personally, I don't consider Gone Home to be a "game".
Certainly doesn't help in the visibility department. Way to do your part for Indie...not? gaming.

I guess you and I haven't been looking at the same pieces of evidence.
Speculation is not evidence.

In America, the courts work on "proof beyond a reasonable doubt", not "100% proof".
So I don't know why you'd hold us to a higher standard than the courts hold prosecutors to.
When's the trial?

Like how TFYC was a bad idea?
Not my point? But since TFYC is enjoying far more coverage than they ever would have...
 

Darkmantle

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There are plenty of people harassed and attacked on both sides, and I find your efforts to paint yourself as a champion against "evil gamergate" to be diminishing the victims who support gamergate. Why do you think it's okay to diminish and deride victims who disagree with you? Do you think they deserve it?
 

aliengmr

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Darkmantle said:
There are plenty of people harassed and attacked on both sides, and I find your efforts to paint yourself as a champion against "evil gamergate" to be diminishing the victims who support gamergate. Why do you think it's okay to diminish and deride victims who disagree with you? Do you think they deserve it?
Funny, it hasn't stopped GamerGate.

Want a reason? Censoring opinions in response to the censorship of games that is not happening now, or will happen ever. GamerGate has made clear that having certain opinions will have undesirable effects. Why? Because GG can't handle criticism. Just the thought of someone having a contrary opinion produces such anguish. Thanks for unilaterally deciding I couldn't think for my self.

Sorry that you feel victimized and diminished.
 

IceForce

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Dec 11, 2012
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aliengmr said:
Funny, it hasn't stopped GamerGate.

Want a reason? Censoring opinions in response to the censorship of games that is not happening now, or will happen ever.
That's what gets me the most about all this. GamerGate keeps speaking in hypotheticals and "what ifs".

"Feminists might demand video games be changed." "SJWs could have an influence on video game creation." , etc.
aliengmr said:
GamerGate has made clear that having certain opinions will have undesirable effects. Why? Because GG can't handle criticism. Just the thought of someone having a contrary opinion produces such anguish.
Tyrion Lannister put it best:

 

Deadcyde

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IceForce said:
aliengmr said:
Funny, it hasn't stopped GamerGate.

Want a reason? Censoring opinions in response to the censorship of games that is not happening now, or will happen ever.
That's what gets me the most about all this. GamerGate keeps speaking in hypotheticals and "what ifs".

"Feminists might demand video games be changed." "SJWs are having an influence on video game creation." , etc.
aliengmr said:
GamerGate has made clear that having certain opinions will have undesirable effects. Why? Because GG can't handle criticism. Just the thought of someone having a contrary opinion produces such anguish.
Tyrion Lannister put it best:

I'm pretty sure that most of the what ifs are completely interchangeable between GG and Anti GG.

It's become so that more people are concerned with pushing some agenda on something they only passingly care about as if it actually has an effect on something they do care about. And yes, i mean both sides.

It's gotten silly, far too silly.