your child is transgendered

[Abomination]

I would find out who is filling my child's head with this nonsense and garbage about gender as a social construct and make sure my children do not associate with this person or people any longer. If this sounds harsh, keep in mind this is no different from keeping your child away from junkies or gangbangers. These people are trying to exploit and inflict terrible harm on your offspring.

What does that look like to you? Hmm? If it's not directly aimed at trans people it sure as heck includes them. It's the presumption at work that basically implies that other trans people might be at fault. Either way I'll admit I was dead tired when I made the response.

Typically one should read the whole paragraph to establish context. In this case, they are talking about people who are discussing the gender of their child.

He's also putting the blame on other people for something that his hypothetical child might be feeling within themselves. I'm TG my self and I was never told gender is a social construct, I was never told to hate my birth sex, I was never told to hate my self, I was never given any cue like what he's saying. Blaming outside influences for an internal conflict that happens within a person's mind is basically the same as saying violent video games and movies cause violent crime.[/quote]A person does not understand what gender is without outside influence. "Boys should do this" "girls should do that" doesn't come biologically.

The message to the child is they should like whatever they wish to like. They don't have to be any gender at all. The pressure to adhere to a particular appearance or mannerism is the damage here.

In which case, he must be including himself in that category-- he's telling his (hypothetical) child what to think, and being more restrictive than anybody else in that scenario.

He is the parent, it is their right to decide how their child should be educated. If there is one thing we accept more than anything it is that the parent has this responsibility and authority. So long as it doesn't harm the child, of course - which transitional surgery will do and also be irreversible.

 

[Erttheking]

I would sit my child down and give them a frank discussion about the harsh realities of life. I would inform them that changing your gender is impossible, and if they feel like they don't like their current gender they will need to find a way to live with it.

If you did that, the odds of your child committing suicide would go through the roof.

And transgenders are comparable to junkies and gangsters? Do I have to go in depth on how that isn't a valid comparison.

Also your information seems to be based largely on hatred towards a political movement. Little to none of it is accurate.

 

[lunavixen]

Let them present how they wish at home, bring them to psychs that aren't gatekeepers, and if they're cleared, put them on hormone blockers until they're about 16-18 and let them present as they wish outside of home. Once they're old enough to make the decision for themselves, I lift them off of hormone blockers and get them on HRT. Not hard to figure out, its literally standard operating procedure when it comes to dealing with trans children, with absolutely no permanent changes occuring to their body until they're ready to make their own decisions as an adult.

Pretty much this, this is a very reasonable course of action to me.


Part of the premise of the OP, namely this part:

Let's say you have a child and as they grow up you notice they're not like other kids. THey're either unusually effeminate or tomboyish, liking my little pony or transformers over what you would normally expect for a child.

is unrelated to the question at hand, gender stereotypes are generally not indicative of much, heck, I had tomboyish pursuits (and still largely do) and it doesn't even correlate to my sexuality, never mind my gender identity.

Captcha: hissy fit, well, I certainly won't do that.

 

[Syzygy23]

I would sit my child down and give them a frank discussion about the harsh realities of life. I would inform them that changing your gender is impossible, and if they feel like they don't like their current gender they will need to find a way to live with it.

If you did that, the odds of your child committing suicide would go through the roof.

And transgenders are comparable to junkies and gangsters? Do I have to go in depth on how that isn't a valid comparison.

Also your information seems to be based largely on hatred towards a political movement. Little to none of it is accurate.

So what, sugar coat it for them? Or is there a way to completely alter your genetics on the fundamental level and I'm not aware of it?

 

[Erttheking]

I would sit my child down and give them a frank discussion about the harsh realities of life. I would inform them that changing your gender is impossible, and if they feel like they don't like their current gender they will need to find a way to live with it.

If you did that, the odds of your child committing suicide would go through the roof.

And transgenders are comparable to junkies and gangsters? Do I have to go in depth on how that isn't a valid comparison.

Also your information seems to be based largely on hatred towards a political movement. Little to none of it is accurate.

So what, sugar coat it for them? Or is there a way to completely alter your genetics on the fundamental level and I'm not aware of it?

As someone who knows a couple of transgender people, one of them post op and one of them trying to get an op, I think we've got a decent operation status going.

Besides, technology is always marching forward. And there's a difference between sugar coating it and telling them outright falsehoods, such as they're doomed to be the way they were born. That stuff causes transexuals to commit suicide. (BTW even if it was a flat out lie I'd tell them that if it kept them from killing themselves)

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Typically one should read the whole paragraph to establish context. In this case, they are talking about people who are discussing the gender of their child.

The problem is in the implication. Read the whole paragraph. Still implies transgender people and their supporters are at fault from my perspective.

A person does not understand what gender is without outside influence. "Boys should do this" "girls should do that" doesn't come biologically.

The message to the child is they should like whatever they wish to like. They don't have to be any gender at all. The pressure to adhere to a particular appearance or mannerism is the damage here.

The problem is that's only partially true. Due to the fact that it's so hard to separate nature and nurture based influences.

The message that a child should be what they wish can be extremely confusing, and can cause problems with anti-social behaviour. The other part is that failure to adhere to the pressures of appearance and mannerism can be very socially damaging, and get a child rejected by peers, if not out right bullied. Which is just as damaging. Due to the fact that gender separation is so endemic to a society made up of people, thus it's important to know the rules. The ones who don't fit in generally gets ostracized even among adults. You can't make a species that instinctively fears the outsider change. Because as a whole humans are not entirely rational creatures.

It's important to teach a child what's expected of them both in terms of their responsibilities, and in terms of their expected social role. Second comes how they feel different from others, how to embrace that, and how ultimately to handle it. Not all transgendered individuals come to the same conclusion. Some only cross dress, either full or part time, some opt for full gender reassignment, some opt to fit neither gender, some like my self choose to project the opposite of what they biologically are. Even so it's important for a child to learn how to fit in as part of a group first, that's a life long skill. The ability to fit in influences how others perceive you even if you opt to change the group you fit into. Not fitting in can negatively affect opportunities in life, from schooling, to jobs, even in regards to housing, and personal physical safety. Even if the law prohibits discrimination, it'll still exist, because that's how people work.

 

[Johnny Impact]

Gender is becoming less of a binary thing all the time. I can't promise I'd completely understand, but I would love them no matter what. It would be their decision, made as an adult. My responsibility as a parent is to accept that I don't have to understand or even agree. My job, once they don't need me any more, is to step aside and let them live their lives.

Really a moot discussion for me as I don't intend to have children.

 

[likalaruku]

My parenting style:

Want to go see a concert in another state on a school day? Fine, have a friend collect all your school work, which you will cram when you get back, rent a car, take a can of mace, a knife, & a taser.

Want to be the opposite sex? Fine, but you're getting a job in your teens to pay be back for all the hormone treatments.

Want a tattoo? Fine, but get it somewhere that can be hidden by a shirt; you'll have to get a job someday.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Want to be the opposite sex? Fine, but you're getting a job in your teens to pay be back for all the hormone treatments.

In my opinion as a general rule of thumb: If you're too young to work, you're too young for hormone replacement therapy. It can be just as, if not more harmful to stifle natural development for what a child wants. As a parent you're expected to know better for your children than they know for them selves. Don't make potentially permanent changes until adulthood. Having to live with a permanent change that you suddenly realize you don't want can be terribly destructive.

 

[Abomination]

Typically one should read the whole paragraph to establish context. In this case, they are talking about people who are discussing the gender of their child.

The problem is in the implication. Read the whole paragraph. Still implies transgender people and their supporters are at fault from my perspective.

The implication only exists if you have a confirmation bias. They have not explicitly said they consider trans people to be the equivalent of social junkies. To infer that speaks more of insecurities than considering what the individual is saying under good faith.

A person does not understand what gender is without outside influence. "Boys should do this" "girls should do that" doesn't come biologically.

The message to the child is they should like whatever they wish to like. They don't have to be any gender at all. The pressure to adhere to a particular appearance or mannerism is the damage here.

The problem is that's only partially true. Due to the fact that it's so hard to separate nature and nurture based influences.

Difficult but not impossible. A purely rational approach to the situation is, as always, the most helpful one. No bias, no politicizing, no emotion - just a blunt retelling of the facts: gender doesn't matter, but people think it does. Ergo, only appearance matters.

The jury is still out on if transgenderism is nature or nurture. I would argue that it's nurture over nature as it relies purely on artificial social constructs before it can manifest. If my hypothetical child was showing supposed signs of gender identity issues I would steer them towards "no gender" over a swap. If they wanted to make a go of it when they were outside my influence I guess that would be their call but I'd rather they not have to fight that fight.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

The past ten years or so that I've watched the world go by, and with every half paranoid person I know telling me that one way or another that the fucking world is ending either because of a caliphate, the environment, the social justice/anti-social justice crowd or nuclear war I think I've just stopped caring. If by the time any children I have are old enough to make this kind of life changing decision that we aren't living in something resembling the prologue of both Terminator movies then I'll consider it a win.


To the topic at hand; I dunno. It could go this way:

Them: "Dad, I'm trans"

Me: "Cool. Pass the butter"

Or maybe it'll go like this:

Them: "Dad, I'm trans"

Dad: "<Insert every angry rant from an outraged parent you've ever heard>"

I can sit here and debate hypothetical scenarios and compare anecdotal experience from both sides of the arrangement, along with some science until I'm blue in the face and begging for mercy but I just don't know, or at this stage give a shit. All I do know is that it would probably be the most awkward conversation of my life.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

The implication only exists if you have a confirmation bias. They have not explicitly said they consider trans people to be the equivalent of social junkies. To infer that speaks more of insecurities than considering what the individual is saying under good faith.

It's hard to establish good faith when the person in question is so hostile to transgenderism. I absolutely hate to use this term, but in this case it seems to fit. The poster in question is trans-phobic. (Grampy-bone I mean)

Difficult but not impossible. A purely rational approach to the situation is, as always, the most helpful one. No bias, no politicizing, no emotion - just a blunt retelling of the facts: gender doesn't matter, but people think it does. Ergo, only appearance matters.

It would be nice if it was that simple. A purely rational approach assumes a purely rational people. Humans are not purely rational. We're panicky, group driven, irrational animals. Also gender does matter, even as a social construct. With out such a system how could humans identify who to reproduce with. With out this system, where does that leave the young? Someone needs to take care of them, and someone needs to birth the,/. As it happens females are best equipped for the job.

The jury is still out on if transgenderism is nature or nurture. I would argue that it's nurture over nature as it relies purely on artificial social constructs before it can manifest. If my hypothetical child was showing supposed signs of gender identity issues I would steer them towards "no gender" over a swap. If they wanted to make a go of it when they were outside my influence I guess that would be their call but I'd rather they not have to fight that fight.

There are pretty solid basis for gender identity based both on experiments with monkeys and apes, and studies that track those who got different hormonal charges while in the womb. It's not entirely clear, but it makes a compelling case.

Also driving a child towards no gender presents several problems: If a child identifies as the opposite gender, taking away both leaves them with no grounding, it also robs them of social connections, and social skills. Having no gender means having no bearing with which to measure themselves to others. That's harmful, it robs people of their competitive nature. Without that nature we'd still be fishing ants out of ant hills with sticks. Also for example: You have a son, a male child, then you find out he identifies as female. You steer them towards "no gender." That alienates their identity as a female internally, because you're telling them not to identify. An inability to identify with others robs said child of interpersonal skills. You can't expect the world to bend for an individual child, or even many children who feel similar. This is because the majority disagrees with the way these people see the world. If someone doesn't know the "rules" they can't "play."

If you strip a child of either gender of their gender identity, how can they relate to some who has a gender identity? Not only are you harming them in the short term, but the long term too. Because you've stripped them of an ability to relate themselves to others.

 

[NotEvenOnce]

[quote/]This may come as a shock to you but I actually agree with many things you said there. However I still do not support the idea of Transgenderism because I do not support the idea of Genderism as a whole.

I believe the entire notion of gender is social (whereas sex is genetic). I believe this notion is one based on sexism, which I find abhorrent. I also believe this notion is one that oppresses and makes some feel like they have to be confined by certain rules and that everyone should fit in one of two designated metaphorical boxes. I believe that people who identify as transgender are those who wish to escape one metaphorical box only so they can entrap themselves in another one, whereas I say there should be no boxes.

As you no doubt can guess I do not, nor have I ever suffered from gender dysphoria. You mentioned how you want the person on the inside to match the person on the outside. To me this is a foreign concept. You may say you are female on the inside. However, I do not feel male, nor female, nor some third gender which I have heard some people talk about on the inside. I do not feel being male (my biological sex) on the inside in the same way I do not feel how tall I am in the inside. I do not feel being male on the inside in the same way I do not feel like my hair is brown on the inside. My sex is like my height or my hair colour, it doesn't define how I should act, it is simply just another characteristic I have.

Who I am on the inside is rather things such as my conscience, loving singing/dancing and musical theatre, loving sport, loving science and discovery and art (well good art).

So when I hear people say I feel male or female on the inside I believe it is not male or female the are feeling but rather other things which they are then told means that they must be feeling male or female due to the sexist concept of gender. I believe when someone is told this enough times and they tell themselves this enough times they will finally convince themselves it is male or female that they are feeling and then the dysphoria occurs. Then they actually feel male or female.[/quote]
This is pretty much exactly what I've been trying to say.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

[quote/]This may come as a shock to you but I actually agree with many things you said there. However I still do not support the idea of Transgenderism because I do not support the idea of Genderism as a whole.

I believe the entire notion of gender is social (whereas sex is genetic). I believe this notion is one based on sexism, which I find abhorrent. I also believe this notion is one that oppresses and makes some feel like they have to be confined by certain rules and that everyone should fit in one of two designated metaphorical boxes. I believe that people who identify as transgender are those who wish to escape one metaphorical box only so they can entrap themselves in another one, whereas I say there should be no boxes.

As you no doubt can guess I do not, nor have I ever suffered from gender dysphoria. You mentioned how you want the person on the inside to match the person on the outside. To me this is a foreign concept. You may say you are female on the inside. However, I do not feel male, nor female, nor some third gender which I have heard some people talk about on the inside. I do not feel being male (my biological sex) on the inside in the same way I do not feel how tall I am in the inside. I do not feel being male on the inside in the same way I do not feel like my hair is brown on the inside. My sex is like my height or my hair colour, it doesn't define how I should act, it is simply just another characteristic I have.

Who I am on the inside is rather things such as my conscience, loving singing/dancing and musical theatre, loving sport, loving science and discovery and art (well good art).

So when I hear people say I feel male or female on the inside I believe it is not male or female the are feeling but rather other things which they are then told means that they must be feeling male or female due to the sexist concept of gender. I believe when someone is told this enough times and they tell themselves this enough times they will finally convince themselves it is male or female that they are feeling and then the dysphoria occurs. Then they actually feel male or female.

This is pretty much exactly what I've been trying to say.[/quote]

The issue with this line of thought is a lack of understanding that some people feel different than they are.

So I'll ask both of you. Have you ever had a burning desire to be accepted as a member of the opposite sex?

 

[Abomination]

The implication only exists if you have a confirmation bias. They have not explicitly said they consider trans people to be the equivalent of social junkies. To infer that speaks more of insecurities than considering what the individual is saying under good faith.

It's hard to establish good faith when the person in question is so hostile to transgenderism. I absolutely hate to use this term, but in this case it seems to fit. The poster in question is trans-phobic. (Grampy-bone I mean)

I would disagree. They have shown no signs towards hating trans people, rather they dislike the affliction. It is a mental disorder, after all, and causes pain and discomfort. A person who is trans is not a bad person, but trans itself is a bad ailment.

It would be nice if it was that simple. A purely rational approach assumes a purely rational people. Humans are not purely rational. We're panicky, group driven, irrational animals. Also gender does matter, even as a social construct. With out such a system how could humans identify who to reproduce with. With out this system, where does that leave the young? Someone needs to take care of them, and someone needs to birth the,/. As it happens females are best equipped for the job.

First, a rational discussion occurs between individuals. In this case between the parent and the child. It's possible to have a rational discussion while discussing emotional aspects of others. Second, gender takes no place in the act of reproduction. One's identity doesn't change their sex. Gender is not required for reproduction. Finally, men, women, straight, bi, trans, cis - all are capable of raising children. None are better or worse unless society becomes involved. The reason why women became the caregivers is because men were more disposable and also more prone to an early death. The gender divide is breaking down at a faster and faster rate. I hope by doing so the concept of trans can also be abolished in the process.

There are pretty solid basis for gender identity based both on experiments with monkeys and apes, and studies that track those who got different hormonal charges while in the womb. It's not entirely clear, but it makes a compelling case.

A compelling case but I imagine those trials haven't seen a male-sex monkey that shows signs of transgenderism being placed as the only male in a female enclosure yet. There are so many factors contributing to what makes a trans a trans that hormonal changes aren't enough to provide proof. I mean, how does a monkey even know what their gender is? How does a monkey even know what gender is?

Also driving a child towards no gender presents several problems: If a child identifies as the opposite gender, taking away both leaves them with no grounding, it also robs them of social connections, and social skills.

No it doesn't. The philosophy that gender is a purely social construct IS the grounding. It's a completely rational perspective on human relations. You don't have to have a gender to have social connections.

Having no gender means having no bearing with which to measure themselves to others. That's harmful, it robs people of their competitive nature. Without that nature we'd still be fishing ants out of ant hills with sticks.

Not at all. It robs nobody of anything. Having a gender is placing oneself in a box of conformity. One can still be sexually active while not possessing a gender. Gender has nothing to do with sexuality and so one who doesn't identify as male could still be of the male sex, for example.

Also for example: You have a son, a male child, then you find out he identifies as female. You steer them towards "no gender." That alienates their identity as a female internally, because you're telling them not to identify. An inability to identify with others robs said child of interpersonal skills. You can't expect the world to bend for an individual child, or even many children who feel similar. This is because the majority disagrees with the way these people see the world. If someone doesn't know the "rules" they can't "play."

Not identifying as female doesn't mean they can't identify with others. One does not need to belong to a specific demographic to belong to a group. Take note, when removing the concept of gender you do not remove the aspect of sex. They would still identify as a male, but they wouldn't BE male. And yes, there is a distinction there.

If you strip a child of either gender of their gender identity, how can they relate to some who has a gender identity?

Easily, they're a person who feels strongly about a binary sex which ultimately means nothing. I imagine they'd identify with them the same way as an atheist identifies with a Christian.

Not only are you harming them in the short term, but the long term too. Because you've stripped them of an ability to relate themselves to others.

Again, I don't need someone to be male for me to relate to them. I can relate to women just as easily. I can relate to trans people just as easily. I UNDERSTAND them, in fact - it's not difficult.

Identity is such a flawed and egotistical concept, it's as though people are incapable of associating with others who do not fall into specific groups. We're a curious species, we're a sentient species. While impulse does play a part in our lives we are capable of rising above it. The fact we are capable of actually having this type of conversation is proof of that.

Race, gender, nationality, culture, religion - these have no substance. They serve only to stereotype and divide. The further an individual can disassociate themselves with these the more unique they become. Their "identity" becomes even stronger. Less about "we" and more about "me".

 

[Abomination]

So I'll ask both of you. Have you ever had a burning desire to be accepted as a member of the opposite sex?

I have no desire to be accepted for the sex I am or the opposite sex. The only desire I have is for the respect and compassion of my peers.

Gender identity gets in the way of that. It pigeonholes me to a stereotype.

 

[Vault101]

So what, sugar coat it for them? Or is there a way to completely alter your genetics on the fundamental level and I'm not aware of it?

whats genetics got to do with it?

I have no desire to be accepted for the sex I am or the opposite sex. The only desire I have is for the respect and compassion of my peers. Gender identity gets in the way of that. It pigeonholes me to a stereotype.

except gender does matter weather we like it or not

a Trans-man does not want to be a "butch" woman he wants to be a man, a trans-woman does not want to be an "effiminate man" she wants to be a woman

 

[Abomination]

So what, sugar coat it for them? Or is there a way to completely alter your genetics on the fundamental level and I'm not aware of it?

whats genetics got to do with it?

I don't know, at least 50% of the equation? Trans is all about the refusal/rejection of the genetic sex. To ignore sex/genetics (and yes, they fall under the same umbrella) in this discussion is to only discuss gender identity and not trans.

 

[Vault101]

]I don't know, at least 50% of the equation? Trans is all about the refusal/rejection of the genetic sex. To ignore sex/genetics (and yes, they fall under the same umbrella) in this discussion is to only discuss gender identity and not trans.

I thourght gender identity and being trans were the same thing in that you "transition" into your "correct" gender identity

 

[carnex]

The jury is still out on if transgenderism is nature or nurture. I would argue that it's nurture over nature as it relies purely on artificial social constructs before it can manifest. If my hypothetical child was showing supposed signs of gender identity issues I would steer them towards "no gender" over a swap. If they wanted to make a go of it when they were outside my influence I guess that would be their call but I'd rather they not have to fight that fight.

No, jury is not out. There were TONS of experiments and attempts to curve nature with nurture and success rate was 0% all across the board. Please stop propagating false information.

Yes you can alter outside behavior and perception of self to some degree via various brainwashing methods but you can not change or curve gender identity. And that is, as far as we know, fact.