your child is transgendered

[Thaluikhain]

The jury is still out on if transgenderism is nature or nurture. I would argue that it's nurture over nature as it relies purely on artificial social constructs before it can manifest. If my hypothetical child was showing supposed signs of gender identity issues I would steer them towards "no gender" over a swap. If they wanted to make a go of it when they were outside my influence I guess that would be their call but I'd rather they not have to fight that fight.

No, jury is not out. There were TONS of experiments and attempts to curve nature with nurture and success rate was 0% all across the board. Please stop propagating false information.

Yes you can alter outside behavior and perception of self to some degree via various brainwashing methods but you can not change or curve gender identity. And that is, as far as we know, fact.

You can't sit down and decide to do it on purpose. That's not the same as the environment playing no part.

 

[Abomination]

]I don't know, at least 50% of the equation? Trans is all about the refusal/rejection of the genetic sex. To ignore sex/genetics (and yes, they fall under the same umbrella) in this discussion is to only discuss gender identity and not trans.

I thourght gender identity and being trans were the same thing in that you "transition" into your "correct" gender identity

And in order to need to transition in the first place one would have to be the "wrong" sex.

The jury is still out on if transgenderism is nature or nurture. I would argue that it's nurture over nature as it relies purely on artificial social constructs before it can manifest. If my hypothetical child was showing supposed signs of gender identity issues I would steer them towards "no gender" over a swap. If they wanted to make a go of it when they were outside my influence I guess that would be their call but I'd rather they not have to fight that fight.

No, jury is not out. There were TONS of experiments and attempts to curve nature with nurture and success rate was 0% all across the board. Please stop propagating false information.

Yes you can alter outside behavior and perception of self to some degree via various brainwashing methods but you can not change or curve gender identity. And that is, as far as we know, fact.

I would like to see if those tests were purely attempts to "correct" a trans to cis rather than observing how the trans state occurred.

Because there is a difference there. One is observing how something is made and the other is an attempt to change the bricks it was made out of.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

snip

I'm too exasperated to argue with you any further. Because you throw human nature to the wind.

You assume rationality... To a person... Who had to pull a gun just to scare off knife wielding thugs who targeted a person for being different...

I'm not going to argue with you. You're the kind of person who argues that Communism would work in a civilization being born into it's third wave... Arguing against human nature as you do, as my sociology books say you're dead wrong on...

Trying to convince you is about as effective as you trying to convince me. Though I have the experience. Either way we're both banging our heads on brick walls.

 

[Abomination]

snip

I'm too exasperated to argue with you any further. Because you throw human nature to the wind.

You assume rationality... To a person... Who had to pull a gun just to scare off knife wielding thugs who targeted a person for being different...

I'm not going to argue with you. You're the kind of person who argues that Communism would work in a civilization being born into it's third wave... Arguing against human nature as you do, as my sociology books say you're dead wrong on...

Trying to convince you is about as effective as you trying to convince me. Though I have the experience. Either way we're both banging our heads on brick walls.

Being rational does not mean one doesn't understand emotion or understand that others are capable of being irrational. I do not throw human nature to the wind, I understand it and seek to rise above it - as we have been doing since we started banging rocks together to make sparks.

I assume you are speaking of an experience where you had to brandish a firearm to dissuade potential attackers armed with a blade. I understand what those individuals were hoping to achieve and they were dead-set in their beliefs that people who are different to them are lesser, freaks, mistakes. Just because some people are thugs doesn't mean all are thugs. Just because I call for rationality does not mean I can't identify that others won't be rational... to not see that would itself be irrational.

No, Communism wouldn't work because it relies upon every individual subscribing in full to the doctrine and 100% participation in a philosophy has been proven again and again to be essentially impossible.

Then again this question wasn't about group participation, it was about an interaction between individuals.

But hey, thanks for the thinly veiled insult.

 

[Vault101]

e]And in order to need to transition in the first place one would have to be the "wrong" sex.

Spoiler: uhhhhh

[img/]http://media.giphy.com/media/11LWFP3gzyzKxy/giphy.gif[/img]

they ARE the wrong sex thats why they transition



[quote/]
I would like to see if those tests were purely attempts to "correct" a trans to cis rather than observing how the trans state occurred.[/quote]
I dunno...why are people gay?

 

[Abomination]

e]And in order to need to transition in the first place one would have to be the "wrong" sex.

Spoiler: uhhhhh

[img/]http://media.giphy.com/media/11LWFP3gzyzKxy/giphy.gif[/img]

they ARE the wrong sex thats why they transition

Yes... I had hoped that was obvious.

Hence why genetics matter. It makes up part of the equation.

I would like to see if those tests were purely attempts to "correct" a trans to cis rather than observing how the trans state occurred.

I dunno...why are people gay?

That's a good question. We don't have the answer for that either.

But sexuality and gender are not the same thing, they are in fact quite different despite being involved in the male-female equation.

 

[Vault101]

Yes... I had hoped that was obvious.

Hence why genetics matter. It makes up part of the equation.

.....well I lost where that line of argument came or went

]That's a good question. We don't have the answer for that either.
But sexuality and gender are not the same thing, they are in fact quite different despite being involved in the male-female equation.

but interestingly we don't pat gay people on the head and tell them to just be normal...not anymore

 

[Thaluikhain]

]That's a good question. We don't have the answer for that either.
But sexuality and gender are not the same thing, they are in fact quite different despite being involved in the male-female equation.

but interestingly we don't pat gay people on the head and tell them to just be normal...not anymore

For a given value of "we", though. Hardly unknown.

 

[Vault101]

For a given value of "we", though. Hardly unknown.

[i/]relatively[/i]

I mean jesus just look at all this shit...I don't like to draw false equivalencies but its actually kind of hilarious in a sad way

 

[Jesterscup]

Hence why genetics matter. It makes up part of the equation.

What about intersex? people who genetically are of both sexes, do you reject the concept of their existence?

You seem to have a very biased view. Trans people aren't rejecting one set of preconceptions for another, they are accepting who they are and trying to express that to the fullness of themselves. What you can *may* be true for some sexual crossdressers ( I've certainly come across that ), but it is not true fr the majority of trans individuals.

I'd be deeply interested in taking you out for an evening to meet some trans people to talk to, and to see how you feel afterwards.

 

[Abomination]

Hence why genetics matter. It makes up part of the equation.

What about intersex? people who genetically are of both sexes, do you reject the concept of their existence?

Of course not. But they aren't the topic here and are such a tiny minority as to not dictate the situation of trans people.

You seem to have a very biased view. Trans people aren't rejecting one set of preconceptions for another, they are accepting who they are and trying to express that to the fullness of themselves. What you can *may* be true for some sexual crossdressers ( I've certainly come across that ), but it is not true fr the majority of trans individuals.

I'm of the opinion that gender is pointless, and thus they're simply deciding/are/choosing/believe one when their sex is another. While my method doesn't apply to everyone it works for me and the topic in question was how one would deal with their hypothetical child.

I'd be deeply interested in taking you out for an evening to meet some trans people to talk to, and to see how you feel afterwards.

No, it's not a matter of having never met trans people. I've lived in Thailand for over a year and have encountered a significant number of trans individuals and had discussions as to the nature of their situation.

My philosophy is born of experience and I have seen the hardships trans people face both socially and mentally. I wouldn't wish it upon anyone.

 

[Jesterscup]

Hence why genetics matter. It makes up part of the equation.

What about intersex? people who genetically are of both sexes, do you reject the concept of their existence?

Of course not. But they aren't the topic here and are such a tiny minority as to not dictate the situation of trans people.

No, actually it is of import here, gender isn't a purely social construct but Biology has a part of play as well, study after study shows differences between the way that men and the way that women deal with situations, on both a social and on a biological level. This is important as it gives us baseline differences between the two genders.

You content that someone who is trans is simply identifying with an alternative to the one they have been raised within, and yet, ( for instance ) I myself generally react in what would be considered a "female reaction" for many stimuli. Sure some of these are social, some of them are 'the way I am' none of them are me trying to be something I'm not.

I'd be deeply interested in taking you out for an evening to meet some trans people to talk to, and to see how you feel afterwards.

No, it's not a matter of having never met trans people. I've lived in Thailand for over a year and have encountered a significant number of trans individuals and had discussions as to the nature of their situation.

My philosophy is born of experience and I have seen the hardships trans people face both socially and mentally. I wouldn't wish it upon anyone.

I spend a lot of time talking to trans people in various places on the spectrum, and I'm always amazed by how wide ranging and different their views and opinions are, I find it curious that you still maintain such a viewpoint even having spoken to some. Where someone is on the spectrum certainly often plays a part on their outlook on certain concepts.

 

[Vault101]

te]I'm of the opinion that gender is pointless

if gender doesn't matter then why does sex?

 

[Abomination]

No, actually it is of import here, gender isn't a purely social construct but Biology has a part of play as well, study after study shows differences between the way that men and the way that women deal with situations, on both a social and on a biological level. This is important as it gives us baseline differences between the two genders.

You content that someone who is trans is simply identifying with an alternative to the one they have been raised within, and yet, ( for instance ) I myself generally react in what would be considered a "female reaction" for many stimuli. Sure some of these are social, some of them are 'the way I am' none of them are me trying to be something I'm not.

Aye, at first we only knew of sex and from that genders were established. But now we have a deeper understanding of what gender and identity is, we also have the sentience to resist our more base impulses and conduct introspection on ourselves.

Everyone has some degree of masculine and feminine traits, but those are part of the individual. If one is predominantly masculine they would likely identify as male and the opposite is also true. What we consider to be a masculine and feminine trait is just as applicable as the masculine and feminine pronouns in the French language. Ultimately arbitrary. But the conformist or conservative would say they're important.

I spend a lot of time talking to trans people in various places on the spectrum, and I'm always amazed by how wide ranging and different their views and opinions are, I find it curious that you still maintain such a viewpoint even having spoken to some. Where someone is on the spectrum certainly often plays a part on their outlook on certain concepts.

I simply believe that gender and sexuality are of so little importance to someone's identity that I hardly consider them aspects of someone's character.

"As a straight male/female" - I don't care.

"As a trans" - I don't care.

"As a homosexual" - I don't care.

te]I'm of the opinion that gender is pointless

if gender doesn't matter then why does sex?

Because one has undeniable effect on the physiology and emotional state of the individual. A man can't have uterine cancer and a woman can't suffer from prostate cancer. Men are physically more robust on average than women and women have been proven to be better at multi-tasking on average.

There are measurable differences and medical situations pertaining to either. Fudging around with someone's sex can have life-threatening repercussions and the destruction of one's sexual organs will prevent that individual from siring in the future.

The gender, by comparison, is a non-event as they could be male, female, or neither and I would treat them the same.

 

[Dollabillyall]

this is for everyone but as a transgirl myself, I have become curious.

Let's say you have a child and as they grow up you notice they're not like other kids. THey're either unusually effeminate or tomboyish, liking my little pony or transformers over what you would normally expect for a child.

And they're not growing out of it. In fact they're expressing a strong desire to become the opposite gender, saying that they want medicine to change them....

How, as a parent, would you handle this? Bear in mind we are talking about someone roughly around 13 years old.

What would you do, and why?

EDIT:

Wow, the rampant ignorance in what it means to be transgendered in here is getting pretty depressing. I would hope people would actually research what it means to be transgendered before playing armchair psychologist.

Secondly, people are focusing way too much on children's interests. I was using that as an example but there are many other ways one can see that their child is different which is the angle I was going for in the first place.

ONe final note...You cannot 'convince' someone they are the wrong gender. To suggest otherwise is quite silly. The process of getting cleared for hormones alone weeds out those who are not truly transgendered with t hose who are.

Trying to convince someone they're the wrong gender is like trying to convince a fish they can walk. No matter how much you talk, it just isn't going to happen.

I would not ever think to be capable of making an informed decision on this by myself. Therefore I would seek counsel with psychologists and psychiatrists and advise my child to not rush into a decision as it will determine the entire outcome of life. I would also try to explain that one cannot become the opposite gender biologically, but that there are limited, difficult, lengthy, often painful and costly ways in wich the outward appearance of a person can be made to look more like the gender that person identifies with. Especially the limits of ways that a body can be altered to be more like that of the gender one identifies with are important to understand for a child if he or she is in doubt about the identity.

 

[Vault101]

[snip

but gender MATTER's

mabye it shouldn't but it does

we experience the world differently and are treated differently based on our gender presentation (and a million other factors) I would be treated differently depending on the weather or not I dressed feminine/boyishly or even soley for the fact I'm a woman

almost everything we do is a form of self expression, particularly our appearance and the cloths we wear. Imagine if (barring uniform/dress code) you were forced to ALWAYS wear clothes you hated it would SUCK. Oh sure cothing aside from practical purposes is a social construct right? except we've all felt the difference, the confidence when we wear something we like as opoased to something we hate...its tangible to the point where other people could pick up on it, and me telling you it [i/]shouldn't matter[/i] (because in many ways it shouldn't) won't mean shit when youre forced to wear a trenchvoat and fedora 'till the end of days

[quote/]I simply believe that gender and sexuality are of so little importance to someone's identity that I hardly consider them aspects of someone's character.[/quote]
this all really exists in "should" land

we do not live in "should" land, we live in reality,

I don't know if this is the case for you but I often find the people who trumpet the "it doesn't matter!" line are people for whom a lot of the western world marks as "default"

[quote/]e]Because one has undeniable effect on the physiology and emotional state of the individual. A man can't have uterine cancer and a woman can't suffer from prostate cancer. Men are physically more robust on average than women and women have been proven to be better at multi-tasking on average.
There are measurable differences and medical situations pertaining to either. Fudging around with someone's sex can have life-threatening repercussions and the destruction of one's sexual organs will prevent that individual from siring in the future.[/quote]
oh my god...[i/]who cares?[/i] plenty of cis-people never get uterine/prostate cancer. There are women who can;t multi-task and men who can't lift....and some of them even don't have children!


[quote/] I would treat them the same.[/quote]

Spoiler: WELL-CONGRA-DU-FUCKING-LATIONS

[img/]http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mcbic3K3EF1rrpsd7.gif[/img]

that still doesn't mean you can dismiss the fact that thease things affect peoples experiences , or that they have exerpeinces that you clearly don't understand

no matter how much you pretend a trans woman could get by in life as an effeminite man that is not the case

and not all trans people have operations!

 

[Vault101]

I would also try to explain that one cannot become the opposite gender biologically.

as I understand this mostly relates to stuff that is no ones buisness aside from the person in question and their partner

when you see somone on the street you don't know what chromozomes they have

 

[Silvanus]

He is the parent, it is their right to decide how their child should be educated. If there is one thing we accept more than anything it is that the parent has this responsibility and authority. So long as it doesn't harm the child, of course - which transitional surgery will do and also be irreversible.

As has been endlessly supported, those who transition far more often experience a better standard of living [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.870351-your-child-is-transgendered?page=3#21808035]. Outright denial of it is more likely to be harmful.

 

[wearesoneutralthatithurts]

Oh, just for people who say "ugh your child is young and its being a phase" (well nobody says that for cisgender or str8 people, sooo..

there is a bit of research about transpeople who decided to take pubertyblocker (which are totally reversible, so even IF it were a phase, the person could opt to not take the blocker and everything should develope as expected.

so, if one is interrested, here is a post with some sources about studies and stuff.

http://dearcispeople.tumblr.com/post/110289482136/learn-data-about-queers-what-science-says-about

I´d trust my child. I knew I was bisexual like, at the beginning of puberty. Same for me being a kinky perv. That was never a phase.
I also always had the wish to get rid of my tits because they are annoing and in the way and for me not aesthetically pleasing.(I mean I want that since I was 14, so 13 years. No phase too. But I dont have money and I dont think that would be legal here anyway)

Just because I am neither identifying as male or female because those are concepts that never worked for me does not mean that my theoretical child would necessarily feel the same.
And because I know myself and would know my theoretical child and know to judge their expression.

 

[Jesterscup]

snip

and not all trans people have operations!

If, as a trans person, I'm simply trying to escape one stereotypical box to enter another stereotypical box, how do you explain me?

No, Really, go look at my profile, if I'm a stereotype in my profile picture, I'm one from 300 years ago.

I'm not a male, I'll never identify as male, even though I spend a proportion of my life as male ( because I'm other things as well, I have children, a job etc). By the same point I"m not female, and ( from my own point of view) will never be female. I'll never have my body changed in any way to make myself more comfortable with it.

( for the record, I score incredibly highly on the cogiati scale I'm what would be termed a "probable transexual" )

Sometimes I get to express who/what I am, I allow others to classify me according to what they are easiest with, though I reserve the right to use 'trans' as a descriptor.

Now please explain to me, how I am trying to put myself into a stereotypical box? Please do, because every single stereotype I can think of is one that utterly fails to describe me.

EDIT----

Oh apologies Vault101, I wasn't aiming my response at you.... I really liked your post, but my post was in response to the abomination ( such a suitable name don't you think? )....