your child is transgendered

[NotEvenOnce]

I would sit them down and have a proper talk about it. I would explain that there's no such thing as transgendered and it was just something people who were sick and unhappy did to themselves.

I would explain that you are who you are, that no amount of invasive surgical mutilation would ever make them a real girl/boy and that modern medicine was essentially offering a cathartic opiate like physical solution to a problem that does not need it.

I would tell them that it's okay to like anything, I'm a man. Straight, white male. Simple as that. Doesn't mean I don't like romantic comedies, or pink, or exfoliating face washes. I would finish by telling him everyone is unique, there's no point trying to pigeonhole yourself into social roles designed by wishy washy liberals with no scientific insight whatsoever. Just be happy being who are you and I'll take you to the butchers so you can see what you almost got yourself into.

as transgendered woman myself, i have to say that there is so much here that is wrong. There are so many psychologists, psychiatrists and mental health experts that would tell you you are wrong, as well as people who have lived this.

If your child was transgendered, you just told them 'i don't accept you', and they may struggle with their feelings for a long time.

Or they may just reject your viewpoint and do whatever they can to get where they need to be. With, or without your blessing.

I prefer to think of myself as forward thinking rather than wrong. Plus at the end of the day I get a kid that is still normal and not butchered like twins in a concentration camp.

not necessarily. And it's hard to say that it's 'forward thinking' since effectively the entire mental health organization says you're very wrong.

Beyond that, if your child truly is transgendered, all you've done is delayed the inevitable.

While Flombongo was definitely a little more blunt than I'd have been, it definitely doesn't seem to me that he's telling his child he doesn't accept them, so much as a slightly different version of what I said earlier. Just that gender is really just a biological thing, and there's not much of a reason to see it as more than that. No amount of surgery is changing what you were born with, only what it looks like, and pigeonholing yourself into one of a bunch of gender presets is something that is only done today because of the shortsightedness of the past.
I kind of doubt that the majority of the psychologist community would say anything that different from what I just did. I often worry that, for a lot of transgender people, becoming so is a response to an inherently unhealthy way of looking at things to begin with. I feel like a lot of transgender people are so because, at least on some level, they're uncomfortable with their own identity to begin with, and rather than accepting themselves for what they are, and/or moving beyond the preset boundaries that the world around them misguide them into, they just latch on to a different preset instead of confronting the underlying problem to begin with. It's always struck me as an unfortunate response to an unfortunate problem. Honestly, I find it hard to believe the mental health organization would tell someone they're "wrong" about any way they see something around them, only that it's not healthy, or particularly open minded.

 

[Areloch]

Someone really need to explain to me why having non-standard interests such as a boy liking MLP or a girl liking Transformers indicates they're transgendered..

they don't

people have a hard time pining down what "gender" is so they assume people think theyre trans gendered over silly things like what their into or how they dress. When I was a kid for a long time I had trouble seeing myself as female because I didn't relate to ANY of the apparent facets of womanhood and it wasn't until I was 15 where you can't get away with that shit anymore that I "played along" for the sake of conformity

and yeah I think many aspects of my life would have (or would be) been better had I been born a man...but I don't identify as a man, I'm not a man, I'm a woman and I like my body just how it is, [footnote/] though it leans itself to androgyny better than other body types might, not that I really take advantage of that most of the time...[/footnote]

what I mean is I think it runs deeper than superficial stuff, and the superficial stuff is how we express what gender we are, particularly in a society that bases things on superficial stuff

then people sometimes take an essentialist view, like genitals or chromosomes...exept the existence of intersex people throws that out of whack, not to mention YOU probably don't know your OWN chromosome situation, let alone other peoples...and gentals? do they really matter unless we want to have sex with someone?

That's fair, but if I'm to be socially obligated to support transgender people(not to imply they don't deserve it), it's the kind of thing where understanding how it even applies or works is prudent to that. As a half-baked comparison, if I'm supposed to help out or interact with people with autism, having even an inkling of an understanding of what it is helps enormously.

You said you have trouble seeing yourself as female because you didn't relate to any of the apparent facets of womanhood, but I have a hard time parsing even this. Are we talking "you don't like shoes and talking about boys" kind of thing, which are social constructs, or you didn't feel that having periods was something your body should be doing, which is more root and physiological?

I currently operate on the 'your pronouns are applied via the best estimated guess of your physical sex'. It's not "accurate" in a technical sense, but is very unlikely to be wrong. Not to disregard anyone that falls into intersex territory, but that's still "what equipment do you have, or are likely to have based on other physiological markers and your general appearance".

Intersex or no, if you're muscled and rocking a full lumberjack beard, I'm going to call you a "he" by default. Outside of pronouns, I really don't actually care what their interests are or who they're inclined to sex up.

I do appreciate you attempting to better explain it though. I've seen many other posters, here or elsewhere, that simply take the "you're wrong." approach to people who are ignorant to it, which helps exactly no one.

Part of the problem surrounding transgender stuff - as far as I have seen - is a) it seems nearly impossible to actually explain to anyone that isn't (which is the vast majority), or b) you have Special Snowflakes that come up with the most astoundingly inane garbage that would be 'transgender' under a wide enough umbrella and make it harder for the general populous at large to take real transgender/transexual people serious. Otherkins come to mind.

 

[Vault101]

[snip.

welp...clearly your an expert on all things gender

really you sound like one of those "love the sinner hate the sin" people

[quote/]Finally when I read you saying "get where they need to be", to me it sounded smug, self-righteous and with the belief that you must be right. This is a topic I have wanted to talk about with a transgendered person for a long time and I would be happy to talk further[/quote]
and acting like you understand peoples experiences so you can dimish them isn't?

gender dysphoria is an actual thing

.
You mentioned conformity, well it works the other way too. Someone who is trans might seek out the other gender's interests, or clothing, to conform to the standards of being recognized as a member of that gender.

yeah...and why deny them that?

people will do what makes them comfortable, if a person assigned male at birth feels like "themselves" when they are a beautiful woman why deny them that?

 

[AwesomeHatMan]

welp...clearly your an expert on all things gender

really you sound like one of those "love the sinner hate the sin" people

[quote/]Finally when I read you saying "get where they need to be", to me it sounded smug, self-righteous and with the belief that you must be right. This is a topic I have wanted to talk about with a transgendered person for a long time and I would be happy to talk further

and acting like you understand peoples experiences so you can dimish them isn't?

gender dysphoria is an actual thing

[/quote]

Well clearly that is not the case or else OP would tell you I would agree with him. I would, however, like to think I have thought about this more then most and have come up with my own opinion.

I have heard the expression "love the sinner hate the sin" before, but I am not so familiar that I would be sure how I am supposed to take that... is it an insult?... Religious is a word which I do not think anyone would use to describe me... but I think we probably all agree that we should keep religion out of this thread.
Bearing in mind this sinner in question is my child, of course I would love them.
I believe we are solely a product of our genetics and our environment (both physical and social of our environment). When I think there is nothing special about me and that the reason someone is a "sinner" is just they had something wrong with their genetics or their environment, I feel more sympathetic towards them. This is a thinking I would encourage in others. Personally, I think sympathy is a good thing.

So, love the sexist hate the sexism? Sure.

That is the way I perceived the tone. I never claimed I understood OP's (or any other transperson's) experience. This is why I have wanted to talk to a transperson about this

I am unsure if you personally have experienced gender dysphoria, but if you had and were willing to explain how it makes you feel, I would be happy to listen.

 

[Vault101]

You said you have trouble seeing yourself as female because you didn't relate to any of the apparent facets of womanhood, but I have a hard time parsing even this. Are we talking "you don't like shoes and talking about boys" kind of thing, which are social constructs, ?

past tense - "had" because I was very young where gender didn't matter as much and didn't realte to anything considered "female" there was no version of femininity for me to model myself on

[quote/]or you didn't feel that having periods was something your body should be doing, which is more root and physiological[/quote]
I don't think ANYONE feels good about persiods....but no I don't think I ever had a problem with the body side of things...[sub/]though I remember hating wearing a bra for the first time because even under my shirt it felt like I was wearing a teeny tiny cut off top....(an ultimate mark and sign of femininity)[/sub]

anyway my point is even after all that I'm not trans, I am firmly cis-gendered which indicates being trans is something fundamental [I/]beyond[/I] clothing/interests

[quote/]I currently operate on the 'your pronouns are applied via the best estimated guess of your physical sex'
.[/quote]
well an easay I read talked about the use and purpose of word definitions...for example its scientifically inaccurate to call a whale a fish....buuuuut go back to bible times and calling a whale a fish is perfectly valid, it swims, its in the ocean, that's all they need to know for their purposes

likewise if you were taking an essentialist approach and decided to call saaay Lavern Cox (from OITNB) a man because of "chromozomes" its not a particularly useful term, she does not identify as a man, she does not look like a man [footnote/]of coarse that's brings up the question of "passing" as in do you only have the right to your proffered indentity if you "pass" and more to the point...by who's standards?[/footnote], other people do not think she is a man, she does not experience the world as a man..."man" when applied to her is rather meaningless

[quote/]Intersex or no, if you're muscled and rocking a full lumberjack beard, I'm going to call you a "he" by default. Outside of pronouns, I really don't actually care what their interests are or who they're inclined to sex up.[/quote]
intersex (as per my limited understanding) can be something like a woman who is born with XY chromosomes but has female genitals and has to take hormones...and you wouldn't know eather way

I have heard the expression "love the sinner hate the sin" before, but I am not so familiar that I would be sure how I am supposed to take that...

I was refering to the fact that its a smimilar condescending and dismissive attitude wrapped up in politeness and false concern for ones welfare

 

[Areloch]

You said you have trouble seeing yourself as female because you didn't relate to any of the apparent facets of womanhood, but I have a hard time parsing even this. Are we talking "you don't like shoes and talking about boys" kind of thing, which are social constructs, ?

past tense - "had" because I was very young where gender didn't matter as much and didn't realte to anything considered "female" there was no version of femininity for me to model myself on

[quote/]or you didn't feel that having periods was something your body should be doing, which is more root and physiological

I don't think ANYONE feels good about persiods....but no I don't think I ever had a problem with the body side of things...[sub/]though I remember hating wearing a bra for the first time because even under my shirt it felt like I was wearing a teeny tiny cut off top....(an ultimate mark and sign of femininity)[/sub]

anyway my point is even after all that I'm not trans, I am firmly cis-gendered which indicates being trans is something fundamental [I/]beyond[/I] clothing/interests
[/quote]

Ah, that makes sense. And yeah, it never made sense to me that one's gender would be associated to things you like, but that seems to be what most people talk about in context of it, so it gets murky quickly. I appreciate your perspective on it. Personally, I'm VERY much against anyone's personal interests having any weight on what their gender is. I think it's bloody stupid and society reinforcing it just makes things more complicated than it should be.

So your experiences essentially boiled down to "During my teenage years, I didn't seem to align with how other girls operated, so I felt out of place, but as time went on that stopped being an issue", if I interpreted that correctly? That's pretty interesting. I never really felt like that personally, but then again, everyone's teenage years are different. It's a complicated time!

I currently operate on the 'your pronouns are applied via the best estimated guess of your physical sex'
.

well an easay I read talked about the use and purpose of word definitions...for example its scientifically inaccurate to call a whale a fish....buuuuut go back to bible times and calling a whale a fish is perfectly valid, it swims, its in the ocean, that's all they need to know for their purposes

likewise if you were taking an essentialist approach and decided to call saaay Lavern Cox (from OITNB) a man because of "chromozomes" its not a particularly useful term, she does not identify as a man, she does not look like a man [footnote/]of coarse that's brings up the question of "passing" as in do you only have the right to your proffered indentity if you "pass" and more to the point...by who's standards?[/footnote], other people do not think she is a man, she does not experience the world as a man..."man" when applied to her is rather meaningless

Intersex or no, if you're muscled and rocking a full lumberjack beard, I'm going to call you a "he" by default. Outside of pronouns, I really don't actually care what their interests are or who they're inclined to sex up.

intersex (as per my limited understanding) can be something like a woman who is born with XY chromosomes but has female genitals and has to take hormones...and you wouldn't know eather way

Sorry, it seems my intent was lost there somewhat. I agree that I wouldn't know either way, so it's honestly functionally irrelevant unless you're talking on in an academic or scientific sense.

I operate on a very simplified "best guess approach". If I look at an individual and they have feminine features, pronounced hips, maybe breasts, no especially developed adams apple as well as long hair and feminine clothes, then what their chromosomal constitution is is pretty much irrelevant. The best guess is that they're a "she". If they have less defined and obvious features, I'll just make my best judgment call falling back on my near-30 years of experience with other humans.

Not to dismiss transgender people at all, but the reality is, I'm going to be right a LOT more often than I'm going to be wrong with this approach.

Also, I feel that people bringing intersex stuff into this level of discussion is just chaff to further complicate the issue. Again, it's a very interesting and valid point of discussion, but any time someone just states that they'll operate on physiological markers for how they identify one's sex, someone throws down intersex cases in an attempt to invalidate that approach.

 

[chinangel]

I would sit them down and have a proper talk about it. I would explain that there's no such thing as transgendered and it was just something people who were sick and unhappy did to themselves.

I would explain that you are who you are, that no amount of invasive surgical mutilation would ever make them a real girl/boy and that modern medicine was essentially offering a cathartic opiate like physical solution to a problem that does not need it.

I would tell them that it's okay to like anything, I'm a man. Straight, white male. Simple as that. Doesn't mean I don't like romantic comedies, or pink, or exfoliating face washes. I would finish by telling him everyone is unique, there's no point trying to pigeonhole yourself into social roles designed by wishy washy liberals with no scientific insight whatsoever. Just be happy being who are you and I'll take you to the butchers so you can see what you almost got yourself into.

as transgendered woman myself, i have to say that there is so much here that is wrong. There are so many psychologists, psychiatrists and mental health experts that would tell you you are wrong, as well as people who have lived this.

If your child was transgendered, you just told them 'i don't accept you', and they may struggle with their feelings for a long time.

Or they may just reject your viewpoint and do whatever they can to get where they need to be. With, or without your blessing.

I prefer to think of myself as forward thinking rather than wrong. Plus at the end of the day I get a kid that is still normal and not butchered like twins in a concentration camp.

not necessarily. And it's hard to say that it's 'forward thinking' since effectively the entire mental health organization says you're very wrong.

Beyond that, if your child truly is transgendered, all you've done is delayed the inevitable.

While Flombongo was definitely a little more blunt than I'd have been, it definitely doesn't seem to me that he's telling his child he doesn't accept them, so much as a slightly different version of what I said earlier. Just that gender is really just a biological thing, and there's not much of a reason to see it as more than that. No amount of surgery is changing what you were born with, only what it looks like, and pigeonholing yourself into one of a bunch of gender presets is something that is only done today because of the shortsightedness of the past.
I kind of doubt that the majority of the psychologist community would say anything that different from what I just did. I often worry that, for a lot of transgender people, becoming so is a response to an inherently unhealthy way of looking at things to begin with. I feel like a lot of transgender people are so because, at least on some level, they're uncomfortable with their own identity to begin with, and rather than accepting themselves for what they are, and/or moving beyond the preset boundaries that the world around them misguide them into, they just latch on to a different preset instead of confronting the underlying problem to begin with. It's always struck me as an unfortunate response to an unfortunate problem. Honestly, I find it hard to believe the mental health organization would tell someone they're "wrong" about any way they see something around them, only that it's not healthy, or particularly open minded.

YOur response tells me that you really have never had a serious encounter with transfolk.

Being trans is a nightmare, not something i would wish on my worse enemy: for your own skin to be a prison, to be self-concious about what you do, say, even sit and say.

The person in the mirror isn't who you are.
The skin you wear isn't yours.
The voice isn't your own.

You know who you are upstairs, in your mind but there are so many people denying your own existence and effectively telling you 'to get over it' or even worse: "have you tried not being transgendered" which isn't even worth commenting on.

Transitioning, the hormones, the surgery, the lasers, the ridicule, the real life test...everything. It's all a quest to feel normal, to align your mind and your body.

In many cases we already know what's wrong with us, with how we feel. When a child says 'i'm not a girl' or 'i'm not a boy', that's not a thing a child would say under normal circumstances and it should be examined at the very least.

This isn't a matter of 'accepting who we are' it's entirely about 'becoming who we are', and for people to say otherwise is at least a little insulting and speaks volumes of their own inexperience and dare I say ignorance on the topic.

Trying to explain what it's like to be transgendered to someone who isn't is like trying to describe the colour red to a blind man, or explaining music to a deaf man.

All I can say is this: It's a nightmare, and be thankful you do not have to live with it.

 

[chinangel]

/Flombongo's first response

as transgendered woman myself, i have to say that there is so much here that is wrong. There are so many psychologists, psychiatrists and mental health experts that would tell you you are wrong, as well as people who have lived this.

If your child was transgendered, you just told them 'i don't accept you', and they may struggle with their feelings for a long time.

Or they may just reject your viewpoint and do whatever they can to get where they need to be. With, or without your blessing.

Chinangel I would do something similar to this, maybe saying it a touch differently (such as with less talk of butchery). I'd be asking questions such as:
"What is it about being a boy/girl that makes you want to be a boy/girl?"
and then listen to their answer. I predict I would probably most likely meet their response with something akin to:

"You don't need to be a boy/girl to do those things or feel this way. You can do that already. That doesn't make you a boy/girl, that makes you yourself and I love you just the way you are. I don't want you to ever feel like you should have to do things or feel certain ways to be a boy/girl or a girl/boy because it doesn't matter if you are a boy or a girl. What matters is the amazing you that you are on the inside that I, and your mother, love so very, very much."

I would like to know what you think is wrong with the perspective that gender identity is an unnecessary social construct and that we should just like what we like and not worry about masculine/feminine/male/female etc but instead focus on being a good person, free of bigotry, who loves and cares for others and who is so excited to explore the beauty we have in this world.

I would also like to remind you that just because experts agree with what you believe in, it doesn't make you right.

I like to think I would have raised a child who would be willing to listen to me as I would being willing to listen to them. I would hope my child would agree with what I had to say and feel no need to reject what I had to say.

Finally when I read you saying "get where they need to be", to me it sounded smug, self-righteous and with the belief that you must be right. This is a topic I have wanted to talk about with a transgendered person for a long time and I would be happy to talk further.

Best wishes.

There is nothing wrong with the perspective that gender identity is a social construct, and I'm not sure where you go thte idea that I think that as I never implied it anywhere.

However, what I hope i can help you understand is that being transgendered is NOT a choice, nto anymore than being born black, white, gay, straight or any number of factors of our identities.

It's not about us being confused, it's not about not understanding...because we do understand. We know who we are, and the entire nightmarish quest is one just to be normal.

To have who we are inside match who we are outside.

But one of the most difficult and painful things transolk face is being denied. Being told that we are confused, that we don't understand, or we hate eachother or that we just need to accept ourselves or 'try not being transgnedered'. It's a blatant ignorance that sweeps our real life experiences aside, it negates our struggles and it's demeaning by people who have never had to stare in the mirror and hate the person they see there, because that's not the person who is inside.

The relief one feels when they're given their hormones, and the anxiety when you go in for surgery, the judgements of others, the fear to tell others about who you are...it's a cage.

We don't need to learn to 'accept ourselves', we need others to back out of our lives, because it's not their choice and it's not their lives and they don't have the right to comment on a struggle they do not understand.

And maybe you're right, just because all the experts agree doesn't make them right. However, I'm more inclined to believe my own experiences, the experiences of countless others and people who have spent time, money and energy researching this.

From doctors to psychologists to psychiatrists, people who understand the mind and the issues that many face, including transgendered folk.

I think those kind of people have a bit more understanding and are far more likely to be 'right' than someone with no experience, no background in the field and no personal understanding with the struggle transfolks face.

As for me saying 'get where the need to' i think that applies for everyone in life, trans or not. Everyone wants to get where they need to, but if someone wont' support or even acknowledge you and your struggles, what used do you have for them in your life?

 

[NotEvenOnce]

[quote/]YOur response tells me that you really have never had a serious encounter with transfolk.

Being trans is a nightmare, not something i would wish on my worse enemy: for your own skin to be a prison, to be self-concious about what you do, say, even sit and say.

The person in the mirror isn't who you are.
The skin you wear isn't yours.
The voice isn't your own.

You know who you are upstairs, in your mind but there are so many people denying your own existence and effectively telling you 'to get over it' or even worse: "have you tried not being transgendered" which isn't even worth commenting on.

Transitioning, the hormones, the surgery, the lasers, the ridicule, the real life test...everything. It's all a quest to feel normal, to align your mind and your body.

In many cases we already know what's wrong with us, with how we feel. When a child says 'i'm not a girl' or 'i'm not a boy', that's not a thing a child would say under normal circumstances and it should be examined at the very least.

This isn't a matter of 'accepting who we are' it's entirely about 'becoming who we are', and for people to say otherwise is at least a little insulting and speaks volumes of their own inexperience and dare I say ignorance on the topic.

Trying to explain what it's like to be transgendered to someone who isn't is like trying to describe the colour red to a blind man, or explaining music to a deaf man.

All I can say is this: It's a nightmare, and be thankful you do not have to live with it.[/quote]
That's interesting, very interesting, but it still all comes back to the same underlying problem for me, and that's that who you are isn't your gender. Your gender is your genetics, and literally nothing more. There are differences in brain function, and development, of course; but isn't saying that inside, you don't feel like X, you are it, inherently conforming to constructed gender stereotypes to begin with? Being a woman doesn't mean anything but having their body parts, and vice-versa.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

While Flombongo was definitely a little more blunt than I'd have been, it definitely doesn't seem to me that he's telling his child he doesn't accept them, so much as a slightly different version of what I said earlier. Just that gender is really just a biological thing, and there's not much of a reason to see it as more than that. No amount of surgery is changing what you were born with, only what it looks like, and pigeonholing yourself into one of a bunch of gender presets is something that is only done today because of the shortsightedness of the past.
I kind of doubt that the majority of the psychologist community would say anything that different from what I just did. I often worry that, for a lot of transgender people, becoming so is a response to an inherently unhealthy way of looking at things to begin with. I feel like a lot of transgender people are so because, at least on some level, they're uncomfortable with their own identity to begin with, and rather than accepting themselves for what they are, and/or moving beyond the preset boundaries that the world around them misguide them into, they just latch on to a different preset instead of confronting the underlying problem to begin with. It's always struck me as an unfortunate response to an unfortunate problem. Honestly, I find it hard to believe the mental health organization would tell someone they're "wrong" about any way they see something around them, only that it's not healthy, or particularly open minded.

Gender is not actually just someone's sex in the context of biology. Gender more often not, especially to a trans-person, will is often used to encapsulate identity. It's hard for a CIS-Gendered person, or someone who more, or less fully identifies as the sex they were born as, to understand what it's like to legitimately not identify with your birth sex. When in cases of varying severity your mind does not identify with who you are physically, and there is a separation. What you said there is like equating sexual preference to gender identity, which is again something that's incorrect, as sexual preference isn't entirely biological, there are many mental components to it.

The problem with your statement on this is two fold. One you're assuming that you're right on standing from a point of totally not understanding what's going on. Firstly you're classifying transgendered individuals as just the transsexual component, the ones who go for the operation. The problems with that are in the case of transsexuals specifically, they're alienated with their physical equipment to an extent that it's deeply damaging to deal with it on a daily basis. Secondly not everyone who falls in to the Transgender categories are at all interested. On top of that you're speaking from a position of the authority of a professional. Such professionals would tell you the exact opposite of what you said.

I'll give you an example of myself. According to some I classify as Transgenderist, as in I'm transitioning but will never have the "bottom surgery" under any circumstances. I don't mind what equipment I've got, but it's not my genitals that define me. To project who I am I do seek other treatments such as hormones and minor cosmetic alterations. Why? Because I want to present the same way I identify, which is far more female than male. Now it might be hard for you to understand, but I want to present an image that matches my inner identity. What is so bad about that?

There are all sorts who count under the transgender umbrella. There are those who do want the bottom operation, and that's their prerogative. You can't even fathom what it must be like to be so alienated by your own genitals that death actually seems like an option, neither can I for that matter, but on some levels I at least understand that it is indeed a nightmare. Then there are cross-dressers/transvestites, bi-gender people who identify as both genders, people who identify with neither gender, and various shades of greys within the circle of these people who also qualify as transgender. Sadly there are a lot of trans people who actually don't understand this either.

Where you did start to see the light is saying it's about identity, because it is about identity. Like I already stated. Some people identify with the opposite gender of their birth, some identify as both, or neither, and to varying degrees. For the people seeking a full transition including the operation it's so deep that their physical gender(sex) actually revolts them to the point where they NEED to change it surgically. That last part is one of the largest contributing factors to suicide in the transgender community, and you should never diminish how people who feel that must feel on a daily basis. These people aren't pigeonholing themselves, they actually feel unnatural in their own body, and if it can't fixed, then death is a viable option. Of course there some psychologists and psychiatrists who push for full transition, which is irreversible, and sometimes push people who don't need it to it, which tragically contributes to suicides too. The all, or nothing approach and not understanding the variables can actually be dramatically unhealthy for transgendered individuals. So if you don't know, don't try to tell a trans person who they are or what they should be.

 

[Thaluikhain]

.
You mentioned conformity, well it works the other way too. Someone who is trans might seek out the other gender's interests, or clothing, to conform to the standards of being recognized as a member of that gender.

yeah...and why deny them that?

people will do what makes them comfortable, if a person assigned male at birth feels like "themselves" when they are a beautiful woman why deny them that?

Bit of a tangent, but apparently there are serious issues with, say, trans women who aren't into stereotypical female things being seen as not really women. Because all women must follow the stereotype.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

.
You mentioned conformity, well it works the other way too. Someone who is trans might seek out the other gender's interests, or clothing, to conform to the standards of being recognized as a member of that gender.

yeah...and why deny them that?

people will do what makes them comfortable, if a person assigned male at birth feels like "themselves" when they are a beautiful woman why deny them that?

Bit of a tangent, but apparently there are serious issues with, say, trans women who aren't into stereotypical female things being seen as not really women. Because all women must follow the stereotype.

Oh holy crap are you telling me. I do hate to derail the topic with this but it's even worse than that. Transgendered people who don't want gender reassignment surgery are considered by some transgendered people as not being transgender. It's not just all women must follow the stereotype, it's all men, and all trans people too.

 

[Vault101]

Bit of a tangent, but apparently there are serious issues with, say, trans women who aren't into stereotypical female things being seen as not really women. Because all women must follow the stereotype.

no doubt....and I wonder if its kind of a thing where someone feels they have a better chance of "passing" if they embody the more stereotypical aspects of femininity/masculinity

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

no doubt....and I wonder if its kind of a thing where someone feels they have a better chance of "passing" if they embody the more stereotypical aspects of femininity/masculinity

The only thing worse is being in to the subset of fashion from Japan called lolita fashion, which is victorian inspired mostly... Then getting accused of trying to hard to pass.

 

[loa]

Liking my little pony/nerf guns or whatever and wanting a sex change/hormone treatment is quite a jump there and you make it sound like they want that because of their interest in things that are not targeted towards their gender which is kind of a shitty reason to fuck with things like brain chemistry, especially during a time like puberty where things are going crazy already anyway.
Being trans isn't exactly turning on easy mode on life either.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Liking my little pony/nerf guns or whatever and wanting a sex change/hormone treatment is quite a jump there and you make it sound like they want that because of their interest in things that are not targeted towards their gender which is kind of a shitty reason to fuck with things like brain chemistry.
Being trans isn't exactly turning on easy mode on life either.

That was a bit blunt but it sure gets an accurate point across.

I'll give you one better: A kid wanting and liking to wear the clothes of the opposite gender doesn't necessarily translate to the need to put them on hormone replacement therapy.

 

[NotEvenOnce]

[quote/] Gender is not actually just someone's sex in the context of biology. Gender more often not, especially to a trans-person, will is often used to encapsulate identity. It's hard for a CIS-Gendered person, or someone who more, or less fully identifies as the sex they were born as, to understand what it's like to legitimately not identify with your birth sex. When in cases of varying severity your mind does not identify with who you are physically, and there is a separation. What you said there is like equating sexual preference to gender identity, which is again something that's incorrect, as sexual preference isn't entirely biological, there are many mental components to it.

The problem with your statement on this is two fold. One you're assuming that you're right on standing from a point of totally not understanding what's going on. Firstly you're classifying transgendered individuals as just the transsexual component, the ones who go for the operation. The problems with that are in the case of transsexuals specifically, they're alienated with their physical equipment to an extent that it's deeply damaging to deal with it on a daily basis. Secondly not everyone who falls in to the Transgender categories are at all interested. On top of that you're speaking from a position of the authority of a professional. Such professionals would tell you the exact opposite of what you said.

I'll give you an example of myself. According to some I classify as Transgenderist, as in I'm transitioning but will never have the "bottom surgery" under any circumstances. I don't mind what equipment I've got, but it's not my genitals that define me. To project who I am I do seek other treatments such as hormones and minor cosmetic alterations. Why? Because I want to present the same way I identify, which is far more female than male. Now it might be hard for you to understand, but I want to present an image that matches my inner identity. What is so bad about that?

There are all sorts who count under the transgender umbrella. There are those who do want the bottom operation, and that's their prerogative. You can't even fathom what it must be like to be so alienated by your own genitals that death actually seems like an option, neither can I for that matter, but on some levels I at least understand that it is indeed a nightmare. Then there are cross-dressers/transvestites, bi-gender people who identify as both genders, people who identify with neither gender, and various shades of greys within the circle of these people who also qualify as transgender. Sadly there are a lot of trans people who actually don't understand this either.

Where you did start to see the light is saying it's about identity, because it is about identity. Like I already stated. Some people identify with the opposite gender of their birth, some identify as both, or neither, and to varying degrees. For the people seeking a full transition including the operation it's so deep that their physical gender(sex) actually revolts them to the point where they NEED to change it surgically. That last part is one of the largest contributing factors to suicide in the transgender community, and you should never diminish how people who feel that must feel on a daily basis. These people aren't pigeonholing themselves, they actually feel unnatural in their own body, and if it can't fixed, then death is a viable option. Of course there some psychologists and psychiatrists who push for full transition, which is irreversible, and sometimes push people who don't need it to it, which tragically contributes to suicides too. The all, or nothing approach and not understanding the variables can actually be dramatically unhealthy for transgendered individuals. So if you don't know, don't try to tell a trans person who they are or what they should be.[/quote]
No no no, I didn't mean to come across as a professional, or speaking on their behalf by ANY means. Only that that's what I'd imagine they'd have said. I especially don't mean to equate gender identity to sexual preference, nor do I mean to make it synonymous with being transsexual, and I actually don't intend to bring transsexualism in to the equation at all, as it's obviously a separate, and only marginally connected topic. I feel like either I messed up somewhere, or you're missing the point of what I'm trying to say. I also understand that identity is the point, but the part that I don't understand is why it matters so much in the first place. I've always felt like the fact that it matters shows a more underlying problem, for everyone, not even just the transgender person. What I don't understand is why their gender identity is such a problem in the first place. Why does it matter what your gender is when your gender is just biology, anything beyond that is just a social construct. I don't get why it has to be one or the other, or something in between. I don't get why in the world people "feel" like anything other than a person because, aside from biology, people are just people. It seems like a lot of pain and confusion or something so trivial it's just confusing to me. Isn't the fact that people feel like they are or need to be any preset at all the problem in the first place?

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

No no no, I didn't mean to come across as a professional, or speaking on their behalf by ANY means. Only that that's what I'd imagine they'd have said. I especially don't mean to equate gender identity to sexual preference, nor do I mean to make it synonymous with being transsexual, and I actually don't intend to bring transsexualism in to the equation at all, as it's obviously a separate, and only marginally connected topic. I feel like either I messed up somewhere, or you're missing the point of what I'm trying to say. I also understand that identity is the point, but the part that I don't understand is why it matters so much in the first place. I've always felt like the fact that it matters shows a more underlying problem, for everyone, not even just the transgender person. What I don't understand is why their gender identity is such a problem in the first place. Why does it matter what your gender is when your gender is just biology, anything beyond that is just a social construct. I don't get why it has to be one or the other, or something in between. I don't get why in the world people "feel" like anything other than a person because, aside from biology, people are just people. It seems like a lot of pain and confusion or something so trivial it's just confusing to me. Isn't the fact that people feel like they are or need to be any preset at all the problem in the first place?

Because the social construct exists, and humans are social animals, it's very natural for us to want to fit in to certain groups. That's part of humanity, the group dynamic, and that's why we have identities that are both very personal and very group oriented. Even the biology can get weird as hell. I actually have two X chromosomes one of which has a Y chromosome fused to it and I turned out male physically because of that. Even though people with that issue, which is called XX male syndrome, more often generally don't have any gender identity issues. That's not the point though...

The point is that in the social and self image departments. Specifically the self image department, having your physical self match your inner self image is rather important. It's also part of identity as a general. It's like asking why are some people nerds, goths, preps, or jocks. It's part of what your personal identity is. Assuming for instance some one is male, they identify as male, and have a strong inner sense of masculinity. That person would not be very pleased if they were made to wear frilly feminine dresses and fit into a usual female gender role. It's not being just a person, it's who you are as a person, because no one is just a person, everyone is their own person, and every person is different. Does that make sense?

 

[NotEvenOnce]

[quote/]Because the social construct exists, and humans are social animals, it's very natural for us to want to fit in to certain groups. That's part of humanity, the group dynamic, and that's why we have identities that are both very personal and very group oriented. Even the biology can get weird as hell. I actually have two X chromosomes one of which has a Y chromosome fused to it and I turned out male physically because of that. Even though people with that issue, which is called XX male syndrome, more often generally don't have any gender identity issues. That's not the point though...

The point is that in the social and self image departments. Specifically the self image department, having your physical self match your inner self image is rather important. It's also part of identity as a general. It's like asking why are some people nerds, goths, preps, or jocks. It's part of what your personal identity is. Assuming for instance some one is male, they identify as male, and have a strong inner sense of masculinity. That person would not be very pleased if they were made to wear frilly feminine dresses and fit into a usual female gender role. It's not being just a person, it's who you are as a person, because no one is just a person, everyone is their own person, and every person is different. Does that make sense?[/quote]
All of that already made sense, but that's all the more reason that I think being transgender is a really unhealthy mindset. I understand how someone ends up there, and why, but if my child came to me as a transgender I'd feel like I failed a little for letting them get into such a rigid understanding of people in the first place. it makes me sad that this is something that has to be an issue for anyone in the first place, because it seems like it exists as a reaction to something that shouldn't be culturally relevant by now in the first place, you know? I don't think the transgender mindset is positive. I think it's an offshoot of a bigger problem, and I wish it didn't have to be a problem for anyone. I don't think people should have to go through years of anxiety because of something so trivial in the first place. It's a shame.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

[
All of that already made sense, but that's all the more reason that I think being transgender is a really unhealthy mindset. I understand how someone ends up there, and why, but if my child came to me as a transgender I'd feel like I failed a little for letting them get into such a rigid understanding of people in the first place. it makes me sad that this is something that has to be an issue for anyone in the first place, because it seems like it exists as a reaction to something that shouldn't be culturally relevant by now in the first place, you know? I don't think the transgender mindset is positive. I think it's an offshoot of a bigger problem, and I wish it didn't have to be a problem for anyone. I don't think people should have to go through years of anxiety because of something so trivial in the first place. It's a shame.

Part of the problem is that people who don't conform to gender norms get treated poorly, especially male to female transgendered people. Because we've been singled out we have this sort of pride and unification thing going on, because we tend to get treated poorly and oppressed. I mean it's more normal and acceptable to be gay or lesbian than it is to be trans, and there are more legal protections for gay and lesbian people too. So that could part of the issue. For me I don't quite feel the nightmareish parts of being trans, though not all trans people are in the same boat. I like to wear my gender difference as a badge of pride to my individuality. Keep in mind I might just be an extra strange person.

Edit: Also since having gender identity issues is considered a mental disorder it gets treated as a special circumstance. Rather unlike how gay and lesbian people are treated. On the other hand gay/lesbian people generally don't need to seek irreversible surgical changes to embrace them selves.