your child is transgendered

[AwesomeHatMan]

Your response

This may come as a shock to you but I actually agree with many things you said there. However I still do not support the idea of Transgenderism because I do not support the idea of Genderism as a whole.

I believe the entire notion of gender is social (whereas sex is genetic). I believe this notion is one based on sexism, which I find abhorrent. I also believe this notion is one that oppresses and makes some feel like they have to be confined by certain rules and that everyone should fit in one of two designated metaphorical boxes. I believe that people who identify as transgender are those who wish to escape one metaphorical box only so they can entrap themselves in another one, whereas I say there should be no boxes.

As you no doubt can guess I do not, nor have I ever suffered from gender dysphoria. You mentioned how you want the person on the inside to match the person on the outside. To me this is a foreign concept. You may say you are female on the inside. However, I do not feel male, nor female, nor some third gender which I have heard some people talk about on the inside. I do not feel being male (my biological sex) on the inside in the same way I do not feel how tall I am in the inside. I do not feel being male on the inside in the same way I do not feel like my hair is brown on the inside. My sex is like my height or my hair colour, it doesn't define how I should act, it is simply just another characteristic I have.

Who I am on the inside is rather things such as my conscience, loving singing/dancing and musical theatre, loving sport, loving science and discovery and art (well good art).

So when I hear people say I feel male or female on the inside I believe it is not male or female the are feeling but rather other things which they are then told means that they must be feeling male or female due to the sexist concept of gender. I believe when someone is told this enough times and they tell themselves this enough times they will finally convince themselves it is male or female that they are feeling and then the dysphoria occurs. Then they actually feel male or female.

-----

You say that people, such as yourself, who are so close to this issue are more likely to right saying we should encourage the idea of gender because have a stronger emotional understanding of what gender means to you. That is fair. But I believe that looking in from the outside my perspective has its own benefits.

-----

If you want to keep this 100% on topic, something I would like to try is a roleplay where I act as your father and you my child who is for the first time expressing that you identify as transgender. Certainly would fit the "your child is transgendered" basis of the thread.

 

[AwesomeHatMan]

I have heard the expression "love the sinner hate the sin" before, but I am not so familiar that I would be sure how I am supposed to take that...

I was refering to the fact that its a smimilar condescending and dismissive attitude wrapped up in politeness and false concern for ones welfare

Truth be told it is very tempting to be condescending and dismissive and laugh at how one rejects feeling forced into one metaphorical box onto to force themself into another. However, that would only make me a bad person in that situation. As easy as it is to simply laugh at others misfortunes and feel happy that their not happening to me, I believe sympathy is important, beautiful and good. I am not perfectly sympathetic but I do try to care for others, as everyone should.

There is also a difference between disagreement and being dismissive. Being dismissive would be pretending that others' feelings do not matter or that they are foolish or pathetic for having their certain opinions. Disagreeing is saying I know you feel this way and I know this is what you believe but I believe you are incorrect. I try not to be dismissive but I am not afraid to disagree.

Also he asked how I would feel if this was my child. The concern I would have for my child is not false nor is the concern I try to have for others.

Lastly I would hope you considered what I had to say as well as the manner with which it was said.

 

[Grampy_bone]

this is for everyone but as a transgirl myself, I have become curious.

Let's say you have a child and as they grow up you notice they're not like other kids. THey're either unusually effeminate or tomboyish, liking my little pony or transformers over what you would normally expect for a child.

And they're not growing out of it. In fact they're expressing a strong desire to become the opposite gender, saying that they want medicine to change them....

How, as a parent, would you handle this? Bear in mind we are talking about someone roughly around 13 years old.

What would you do, and why?

I would find out who is filling my child's head with this nonsense and garbage about gender as a social construct and make sure my children do not associate with this person or people any longer. If this sounds harsh, keep in mind this is no different from keeping your child away from junkies or gangbangers. These people are trying to exploit and inflict terrible harm on your offspring.

I would sit my child down and give them a frank discussion about the harsh realities of life. I would inform them that changing your gender is impossible, and if they feel like they don't like their current gender they will need to find a way to live with it. I would show them the horrific, disfiguring, life-threatening surgery which robs you of your ability to procreate and experience sexual pleasure permanently and how it can never be undone.

I would try to identify what the source of their gender confusion is, most likely so-called "progressives" and their self-hating bigotry. Seriously, who the fuck to do these people thing they are? Teaching boys to hate being male and teaching girls to hate being female. Teaching children to despise themselves for who they are is a hate crime and child abuse, and it's unconscionable.

 

[chinangel]

Your response

This may come as a shock to you but I actually agree with many things you said there. However I still do not support the idea of Transgenderism because I do not support the idea of Genderism as a whole.

I believe the entire notion of gender is social (whereas sex is genetic). I believe this notion is one based on sexism, which I find abhorrent. I also believe this notion is one that oppresses and makes some feel like they have to be confined by certain rules and that everyone should fit in one of two designated metaphorical boxes. I believe that people who identify as transgender are those who wish to escape one metaphorical box only so they can entrap themselves in another one, whereas I say there should be no boxes.

As you no doubt can guess I do not, nor have I ever suffered from gender dysphoria. You mentioned how you want the person on the inside to match the person on the outside. To me this is a foreign concept. You may say you are female on the inside. However, I do not feel male, nor female, nor some third gender which I have heard some people talk about on the inside. I do not feel being male (my biological sex) on the inside in the same way I do not feel how tall I am in the inside. I do not feel being male on the inside in the same way I do not feel like my hair is brown on the inside. My sex is like my height or my hair colour, it doesn't define how I should act, it is simply just another characteristic I have.

Who I am on the inside is rather things such as my conscience, loving singing/dancing and musical theatre, loving sport, loving science and discovery and art (well good art).

So when I hear people say I feel male or female on the inside I believe it is not male or female the are feeling but rather other things which they are then told means that they must be feeling male or female due to the sexist concept of gender. I believe when someone is told this enough times and they tell themselves this enough times they will finally convince themselves it is male or female that they are feeling and then the dysphoria occurs. Then they actually feel male or female.

-----

You say that people, such as yourself, who are so close to this issue are more likely to right saying we should encourage the idea of gender because have a stronger emotional understanding of what gender means to you. That is fair. But I believe that looking in from the outside my perspective has its own benefits.

-----

If you want to keep this 100% on topic, something I would like to try is a roleplay where I act as your father and you my child who is for the first time expressing that you identify as transgender. Certainly would fit the "your child is transgendered" basis of the thread.

having gone through this 'role play' in real life and needing therapy for it afterwords? no thank you.

Beyond that, how can I explain to someone what it's like to feel wrong in your own skin. THis isn't some social construct, it's not something that can be logiced away or ignored.

This is very real, and the more you ignore it, the stronger it grows.

You don't feel different because you are in synch with who you are.

But for transfolk...we aren't. We have a distinct wrongness we feel, and it's not something we can just up and ignore, nor is it something that can be forced to stop existing.

I can't explain this to someone, and I imagine most can't. There are countless metaphors and analogies that have been used but none really can give you that true feeling of wrongness.

In the end, i can't really explain it or put it in words that another person would be able to understand.

You just. Feel. Wrong.

You look at a girl and you want to *BE* her, you look at your body and resent it because it's not right, this isn't how it's supposed to be.

You say that you do not believe someone is 'male or female' on the inside and with all do respect...you have no right to say that.

If you cannot even understand our struggles, how can you hope to judge them? You have no training, no history, no...anyhting. Respectfully, you don't qualify to comment because you don't know what it's like.

You want to try a little experiment?

Imagine tomorrow you woke and were a dog, and everyone treated you as a dog, but you KNEW who you were. But every time you tried to act how you were you were struck down.

But suddenly, someone comes along and believes you and offers you a way to walk like a man again.

Maybe it won't make you into a man...but it will give you some of your mobility and dignity back.

that's probably the closest I can get. We know we're not getting the 100 percent package, we know we cna't have children or whatnot.

But damnitt, we're going to take what we can...

Because our bodies are prisons, and we want to be free. We want to be *NORMAL*.

 

[SunlightHeart]

I'd just point them in the right direction and let 'em loose. If my son wanted to be a female i probably would have no opinion or feelings at all.

 

[chinangel]

this is for everyone but as a transgirl myself, I have become curious.

Let's say you have a child and as they grow up you notice they're not like other kids. THey're either unusually effeminate or tomboyish, liking my little pony or transformers over what you would normally expect for a child.

And they're not growing out of it. In fact they're expressing a strong desire to become the opposite gender, saying that they want medicine to change them....

How, as a parent, would you handle this? Bear in mind we are talking about someone roughly around 13 years old.

What would you do, and why?

I would find out who is filling my child's head with this nonsense and garbage about gender as a social construct and make sure my children do not associate with this person or people any longer. If this sounds harsh, keep in mind this is no different from keeping your child away from junkies or gangbangers. These people are trying to exploit and inflict terrible harm on your offspring.

I would sit my child down and give them a frank discussion about the harsh realities of life. I would inform them that changing your gender is impossible, and if they feel like they don't like their current gender they will need to find a way to live with it. I would show them the horrific, disfiguring, life-threatening surgery which robs you of your ability to procreate and experience sexual pleasure permanently and how it can never be undone.

I would try to identify what the source of their gender confusion is, most likely so-called "progressives" and their self-hating bigotry. Seriously, who the fuck to do these people thing they are? Teaching boys to hate being male and teaching girls to hate being female. Teaching children to despise themselves for who they are is a hate crime and child abuse, and it's unconscionable.

that is a lot of anger and lot of incorrect information.

I suggest looking up things on what it means to be transgendered before commenting, because it's the result of the brain and mind...not other people convincing you.

You cannot convince someone they are the wrong gender anymore than you can convince a cat they are a giraffe.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

this is for everyone but as a transgirl myself, I have become curious.

Let's say you have a child and as they grow up you notice they're not like other kids. THey're either unusually effeminate or tomboyish, liking my little pony or transformers over what you would normally expect for a child.

And they're not growing out of it. In fact they're expressing a strong desire to become the opposite gender, saying that they want medicine to change them....

How, as a parent, would you handle this? Bear in mind we are talking about someone roughly around 13 years old.

What would you do, and why?

I would find out who is filling my child's head with this nonsense and garbage about gender as a social construct and make sure my children do not associate with this person or people any longer. If this sounds harsh, keep in mind this is no different from keeping your child away from junkies or gangbangers. These people are trying to exploit and inflict terrible harm on your offspring.

I would sit my child down and give them a frank discussion about the harsh realities of life. I would inform them that changing your gender is impossible, and if they feel like they don't like their current gender they will need to find a way to live with it. I would show them the horrific, disfiguring, life-threatening surgery which robs you of your ability to procreate and experience sexual pleasure permanently and how it can never be undone.

I would try to identify what the source of their gender confusion is, most likely so-called "progressives" and their self-hating bigotry. Seriously, who the fuck to do these people thing they are? Teaching boys to hate being male and teaching girls to hate being female. Teaching children to despise themselves for who they are is a hate crime and child abuse, and it's unconscionable.

that is a lot of anger and lot of incorrect information.

I suggest looking up things on what it means to be transgendered before commenting, because it's the result of the brain and mind...not other people convincing you.

You cannot convince someone they are the wrong gender anymore than you can convince a cat they are a giraffe.

I agree with you chinangel, and this is very angry and very very close minded to people who are different.

Also comparing transgendered people to junkies and gang members is down right hateful, misguided, and just plain wrong. Grampy_bone do you really think it's fair, or at all right to compare someone who feels they were born the wrong sex to criminals? I mean really...

 

[the December King]

If you cannot even understand our struggles, how can you hope to judge them? You have no training, no history, no...anyhting. Respectfully, you don't qualify to comment because you don't know what it's like.

I have been following this thread with some interest, as I find issues of gender lately to be compelling. But this comment strikes me as unfair. If only transgender people can understand, then why didn't you just tell us what parents should do, instead of asking a predominantly cisgendered body of people? What were you expecting (No hostility meant, by the way. I'm just asking)?

Most people have said, even if they don't understand, that they would talk to their child and be there for them, a big first step, certainly. The idea of professional counseling is immediately mentioned after that, and that leads to counseling for both parents and child. The hesitation to use hormonal blockers is understandable, as that is something a lot of cisgender folk might not understand, such as myself, and I would be a bad parent to just dump drugs on my child because the internet said so. And then there's eventual surgery options if the child, then old enough, wishes.

I have only one passing friend who I know is transgender. She certainly seemed to blossom into a much more gregarious, outgoing and frankly happier person after beginning her journey- is that called 'coming out'? Or, as MarsAtlas has said, 'presenting'? Either way, we don't travel in the same social circles anymore, but such is life. If I were closer to her, I'd have liked the chance to ask her how she would handle your question.

 

[Insideout Ink Demon]

EDIT:

Wow, the rampant ignorance in what it means to be transgendered in here is getting pretty depressing. I would hope people would actually research what it means to be transgendered before playing armchair psychologist.

I think a lot of people have grown up with societal pressures to fitvin, one way or another. They have instilled in them certain rules and either suppressed or moved on from those things society said was not the norm.
And for some, the idea of someone being trans and proud probably makes them angry, and they think the trans person should tow the line and conform like they have.
Just a thought anyway.

Back on topic; I really don't know what I'd do. I'd wanna be supportive of my kids, I think its at the point they start to identify for themselves that I'd do some hard research. Off the top of my head, I think I'd discourage any thoughts of hormone replacement or operations (if they wanted to go that far) until they're an adult and want to make that decision their self. I wouldn't want to be the one signing off on something so important, even they said they wanted it.

 

[Abomination]

Also comparing transgendered people to junkies and gang members is down right hateful, misguided, and just plain wrong. Grampy_bone do you really think it's fair, or at all right to compare someone who feels they were born the wrong sex to criminals? I mean really...

Employ reading comprehension. He never said trans people were comparable, he said those who were telling his hypothetical children how they should feel about their gender was comparable.

Gender is a social construct that doesn't occur in a vacuum. It is brought up and influenced by others. A child should have no discussions surrounding this, and especially not one without their parents being present. You wouldn't explain to a child what sex is so you shouldn't be explaining to a child what gender is.

 

[Silvanus]

Employ reading comprehension. He never said trans people were comparable, he said those who were telling his hypothetical children how they should feel about their gender was comparable.

In which case, he must be including himself in that category-- he's telling his (hypothetical) child what to think, and being more restrictive than anybody else in that scenario.

 

[chinangel]

If you cannot even understand our struggles, how can you hope to judge them? You have no training, no history, no...anyhting. Respectfully, you don't qualify to comment because you don't know what it's like.

I have been following this thread with some interest, as I find issues of gender lately to be compelling. But this comment strikes me as unfair. If only transgender people can understand, then why didn't you just tell us what parents should do, instead of asking a predominantly cisgendered body of people? What were you expecting (No hostility meant, by the way. I'm just asking)?

Most people have said, even if they don't understand, that they would talk to their child and be there for them, a big first step, certainly. The idea of professional counseling is immediately mentioned after that, and that leads to counseling for both parents and child. The hesitation to use hormonal blockers is understandable, as that is something a lot of cisgender folk might not understand, such as myself, and I would be a bad parent to just dump drugs on my child because the internet said so. And then there's eventual surgery options if the child, then old enough, wishes.

I have only one passing friend who I know is transgender. She certainly seemed to blossom into a much more gregarious, outgoing and frankly happier person after beginning her journey- is that called 'coming out'? Or, as MarsAtlas has said, 'presenting'? Either way, we don't travel in the same social circles anymore, but such is life. If I were closer to her, I'd have liked the chance to ask her how she would handle your question.

I suppose i should apologize. I got frustrated seeing how many people on here are just blatantly ignorant and deciding they have 'the solution' to transfolk and they know how the trans mind works, et cetera et cetera et cetera.

It got to me and i responded in anger. I apologize

 

[Reasonable Atheist]

So I am probly going to get heaps and heaps of flak for this, because I do not think it is a thought process that is very in line with political correctness, but here I go.

It seems to me, that trans folk are validated at least partially in their beliefs by numbers that say they are very likely to suffer from depression and be suicidal. I contest that gender reassignment surgery is cosmetic surgery, and it seems like anyone who wants cosmetic surgery on their face is likely to be suicidal and depressed.

I am not saying I have come to any conclusions here, but it strikes me as being worth further thought. I would say that people seeking any cosmetic surgery are trying to "match their outside appearance with how they feel". I do not know, I have never wanted surgery, all I can do is read and observe.

Maybe, as a culture, we are taking a huge leap here bassed on our own social constructs?

I find this topic fascinating there are just so many.... facets.

source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/depression-and-suicide-bids-rife-in-patients-seeking-cosmetic-surgery-1090101.html

 

[the December King]

If you cannot even understand our struggles, how can you hope to judge them? You have no training, no history, no...anyhting. Respectfully, you don't qualify to comment because you don't know what it's like.

I have been following this thread with some interest, as I find issues of gender lately to be compelling. But this comment strikes me as unfair. If only transgender people can understand, then why didn't you just tell us what parents should do, instead of asking a predominantly cisgendered body of people? What were you expecting (No hostility meant, by the way. I'm just asking)?

Most people have said, even if they don't understand, that they would talk to their child and be there for them, a big first step, certainly. The idea of professional counseling is immediately mentioned after that, and that leads to counseling for both parents and child. The hesitation to use hormonal blockers is understandable, as that is something a lot of cisgender folk might not understand, such as myself, and I would be a bad parent to just dump drugs on my child because the internet said so. And then there's eventual surgery options if the child, then old enough, wishes.

I have only one passing friend who I know is transgender. She certainly seemed to blossom into a much more gregarious, outgoing and frankly happier person after beginning her journey- is that called 'coming out'? Or, as MarsAtlas has said, 'presenting'? Either way, we don't travel in the same social circles anymore, but such is life. If I were closer to her, I'd have liked the chance to ask her how she would handle your question.

I suppose i should apologize. I got frustrated seeing how many people on here are just blatantly ignorant and deciding they have 'the solution' to transfolk and they know how the trans mind works, et cetera et cetera et cetera.

It got to me and i responded in anger. I apologize

No worries, Chinangel. As has been pointed out to me in the past, I often take insult from things clearly not meant for me and I've got to grow a thicker skin! But I understand that with some of the more aggressive posts, it can be really upsetting.

I know that, somewhere in this thread, at least a few people have stopped and considered something that they might not otherwise have, and that is very special.

So kudos to you!

 

[wearesoneutralthatithurts]

How, as a parent, would you handle this? Bear in mind we are talking about someone roughly around 13 years old.

What would you do, and why?

Well first I´d be used to is, bc as you said, my child wouldve been strange to begin with. Like me. And my SO is also bit deranged from reality (in a good way) So I´d say-godspeed you, lets go to a specialist to talk therapy and options. choosing clothing would be on my child anyway.(For younger age I´m all for neutral clothing, also even a 4 year old can indicate what they´d like)
So they would be the gender they are and I would not want to suppress that-why should I? If I had a child, why should I care for their gender-I should care for their happiness, because thats what matters

 

[ngl42398]

I'm gonna have to say that I'd make them wait. 13 is not old enough to decide whether you want to spend your entire life as one gender or not. 16-17, minimum. Chinangel, I believe that your own experiences may have warped your opinion of what is right for children. A 13 year old child, as stated above, is simply not mature or grown up enough to be able to make a decision like this for themselves.

 

[PlayerDos]

I have no idea. Emotionally I would probably be sad that they're in for a hard life, but I'd like to think I'm a decent enough human being that it wouldn't bother me.

The difficult part would be the hormonal treatments and stuff, cause its best to start that young, and you know, what if their friend is transgendered and they just wanna be like their friend. Or they see a feminine anime character protagonist and they decide they want to be like him.

I would hope there were doctors and psychologists that could definitively tell me what to do in this situation, I would want to be absolutely certain for the sake of my kid that what they were feeling about it was legit. If it was I'd let them do it.

 

[Vault101]

snip.

what?

people only hate their gender if they don't fit into its preconceived ideas or are trans

 

[AwesomeHatMan]

Snip

I believe you have experienced feeling wrong in your own skin. Your feelings are real. Your pain is real. No-one should have to face this pain.

I think there may have been a miscommunication between us, social constructs are also real. They are real things, just that they are things that we, as a society, have artificially created. But, just as social constructs can be created, they can be changed or forgotten. I believe that gender is a social construct (as opposed to sex which is biological) which we would be better off having forgotten. This is not simply ignoring or logic'ing away, but rather agreeing as a society that we should reject the idea of gender as it has no reason to exist and it causes real pain to people in real ways, including but not limited to dysphoria. Rejecting this construct is simple but not letting it affect you is not a simple snap-of-the-fingers. One cannot magically erase all of their prejudice, this is something that takes time and effort and may not be completely achieveable.

I interpret what you say as claiming that I do in fact have an innate feeling that I am male, I just do not feel it because I do not face an identity conflict. That is possible. You may be right.

However, I believe that no-one naturally has an innate feeling of what their sex should be but rather some have internalised this feeling as a result of a sexist society telling them that parts of one's personality should be associated with a certain sex and that this causes them to feel as a certain sex which in some cases leads to dysphoria.

I believe no-one has the right to say that your feelings are not real or do not matter. But I do believe I have the right to say what I have said.

I also think that the best solution is not to simply accept that dysphoria is something which just happens, but rather to not let dysphoria begin but denouncing the idea of gender entirely.

I would feel horrible being permanently trapped in a dog's body.

The thing is though, that I do not believe that men and women are that different. They have different genitalia and different breast tissue and different anthropometry etc. but I do not believe that they truly feel any different/Any difference in personality is due to societal pressures or very small.

Also I am not necessarily sure what it is you refer to on the being struck down thing. Is it things such as wearing women's clothing? Because I do not believe there is women's clothing. I think it is clothing that women happen to wear and is designed to fit traditionally female shapes, which is easier to refer as "women's clothing", and if you want to wear it, then you should feel free. If people believe that you should not wear this sort of clothing they are being unfair and bigoted. That is not something you should ever have to put up with.

Is it in you saying that you are a woman? Then no, as it is simply not true in the same way I am not 7 feet tall. Is it in saying that you feel like a woman? Then no, as this implies there is a way that all men feel and a way that all women feel and that is sexist and wrong.

Also, obvious sexism aside, what does it mean to feel like you are a woman? I understand that one could feel wrong in one's own body, but I have no idea what being a woman is supposed to feel like.

I believe that you do feel like your body is a prison and that is not your choice, but I also believe you need not feel that way.

I believe that you want to feel normal. But I do not think there should be this so-called normal that everyone should want to be.

Going back to your OP, I feel like there should be boys who like my little pony, boys who like transformers, boys who like both and boys who like neither. All should be cared for and all should feel like they can like or dislike those things regardless of their sex. The same also should apply for girls.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Employ reading comprehension. He never said trans people were comparable, he said those who were telling his hypothetical children how they should feel about their gender was comparable.

Gender is a social construct that doesn't occur in a vacuum. It is brought up and influenced by others. A child should have no discussions surrounding this, and especially not one without their parents being present. You wouldn't explain to a child what sex is so you shouldn't be explaining to a child what gender is.

Wait a second here.

I would find out who is filling my child's head with this nonsense and garbage about gender as a social construct and make sure my children do not associate with this person or people any longer. If this sounds harsh, keep in mind this is no different from keeping your child away from junkies or gangbangers. These people are trying to exploit and inflict terrible harm on your offspring.

What does that look like to you? Hmm? If it's not directly aimed at trans people it sure as heck includes them. It's the presumption at work that basically implies that other trans people might be at fault. Either way I'll admit I was dead tired when I made the response.

He's also putting the blame on other people for something that his hypothetical child might be feeling within themselves. I'm TG my self and I was never told gender is a social construct, I was never told to hate my birth sex, I was never told to hate my self, I was never given any cue like what he's saying. Blaming outside influences for an internal conflict that happens within a person's mind is basically the same as saying violent video games and movies cause violent crime.