zerg comparrison sc1 and sc2

[Fat Hippo]

The problem is that with the addition of Terran Reapers, Terran players can do this faster, easier, with less units as well as spending less resources. (Believe me, I am sick of spending several hundred minerals just to get cannons in my mineral lines to fend off the bloody things! >.<)

That's true, I feel your pain. A fairly easy solution is to place 2 spine crawlers next to your hatchery, in a way that it covers your mineral line. It's not very expensive and a good idea in a multiplayer game anyway, to help you hold out until your allies arrive if you get team-rushed. And later on you can uproot and place them somewhere else, which is what makes spine and spore crawlers pretty cool actually.

 

[Azure Sky]

Wall of text detected! =3

The problem is that with the addition of Terran Reapers, Terran players can do this faster, easier, with less units as well as spending less resources. (Believe me, I am sick of spending several hundred minerals just to get cannons in my mineral lines to fend off the bloody things! >.<)

That's true, I feel your pain. A fairly easy solution is to place 2 spine crawlers next to your hatchery, in a way that it covers your mineral line. It's not very expensive and a good idea in a multiplayer game anyway, to help you hold out until your allies arrive if you get team-rushed. And later on you can uproot and place them somewhere else, which is what makes spine and spore crawlers pretty cool actually.

That is indeed true, in fact, I didn't actually know you could move them at will until just the other day.
I also believe they do the most damage out of the 3 races defensive structures, but I could just be imagining it.

Im actually finding this thread faily funny since zerg were way op during the beta. That is actually why it doesnt surprise me that people are having a harder time with them. They arnt worse then terran or protoss right now they are just played differently and take alittle more skill and alot of micro to pull off properly.

Beta or not, this is live.

The Terran were given several new units in #2 to make up for various weaknesses in the first game. and many existing units were changed and/or buffed (Example of this, I think Marines have more health now) And as a result, they are an incredibly strong, well balanced race that can deploy its various units in many many different ways as any given situation demands. Loss of Wraiths does slow down the Terran air game though.

The Protoss, while not gaining as much as the Terran, gained the Warp In mechanic which greatly improves the speed at which they make units among other implementations. They got a teleporting Dragoon (Stalker) that basicly does the same as the old. Immortals Colossi and Void Rays, which, while more situational than the Terran improvements are still very powerful units when used correctly. And finally, the Warp Prism, which when used in conjunction with Warp In, makes the new Zerg Nydus Network look rather primitive and inferior. Although, they did lose the Scout, which leaves them a little on the lacking side aerially until Carriers.

The Zerg however, got... A new ranged ground unit that plays like a castrated Hydralisk, while the Hydra itself was moved along the tech tree to take longer to get. Nydus Network is a great improvement over the old Nydus Canals, but as I said above, is inferior to the Protoss Prism/Warp In that does the job better and faster. Brood Lords? Guardians were better. Mutalisks are unchanged, are are most other units that were in the old game, Zerglings in particular are the same as they were in the first, which when compared to the various upgrades the Marines/Marauders and Zealots received, makeing them next to useless unless you can get them out before your opponent has their Barracks/Gateway up.

I don't actually play Zerg or Terran, so I am probably missing quite a bit more on both counts, and if I am actually wrong on one or more things I have said, point it out. =3
[/walloftext]

Also, before anyone says anything. The above is all first hand experience or first hand observation. =3

 

[Zenn3k]

How to beat 95% of Zerg players as Terran:

Build 50 Marines, upgrade them to like, level 2. It requires thought, planning, and skill to beat that as a Zerg player (and thats assuming you even know its coming, Zerg have the worst scouting in the game), and that says a LOT about the balance issues plaguing Zerg.

The only two effective counters are Banelings, which are pretty useless otherwise, and Ultralisks which are aren't likely to have in time. Broodlords are TECHNICALLY a counter (a bad one) and they take just as long to get up as Ultra's do.

Zergling rush? Terran walling stops that DEAD, even with just 1-2 marines, and I can get myself walled in before you spawn your first Zergling.

 

[Flying-Emu]

6-ling rushes are the cheapest strategy in the game, if you can even call them a strategy.
It's like starting a game of Tag with THRETWONEGOYOUREIT!!! and instantly tagging the person next to it. Sure, you win, but it's just pathetic and takes no skill whatsoever.

Your original complaint was "Zerg can't win". Then when I suggested a strategy that enables the Zerg to win, you say it's cheap and no one should ever do it. There's an endless cycle here somewhere.

You have to play to each race's strength if you want to win. Believe it or not, the Zerg's main strength is the ability to churn out large numbers of units very quickly. Not rushing is antithetical to the whole concept behind the Zerg. You're never going to win trying to out-tech Protoss or even Terrans, it's just not gonna happen. You have to hit them as quickly as possible, as relentlessly as you can, otherwise you will lose.

False.

You have to outmacro a Terran or Toss player to win. Whether that means rushing early or doing tactical strikes on their supply line until you simply out-resource him, that is how you win. The Zerg aren't these weak, cowardly players that people seem to think they are: If anything, they require a remarkable amount of skill over an opposing player.

6-ling rushes are the cheapest strategy in the game, if you can even call them a strategy.
It's like starting a game of Tag with THRETWONEGOYOUREIT!!! and instantly tagging the person next to it. Sure, you win, but it's just pathetic and takes no skill whatsoever.

l2 micro your workers.

I have never been dropped by a 6-ling rush. EVER. As the Terran, you wall with depots. As the Protoss, you wall with Gateways and Pylons. As the Zerg, you fight the bastards off with your drones (there's a reason that Drones do more damage than SCVs and Probes). Here's the thing about early Zerg rushes: If they fail, and they did something BESIDES a 13+ pool, their economy is so far behind yours that you can literally wipe the floor with them by minute 10. Learn to play before discussing the strengths and weaknesses of a race. And no skill? I disagree. I think it takes no skill to BEAT an early rush, provided you have elementary micro and macro abilities. And if you don't have those, well, you should go back to C&C and leave SC2 to the big boys.

Not to mention that Lings are the most inferior combat unit in the game now.

A Marine squad is quite capable of besting a group of lings twice in number.
Zealots even more so, being able to best them 3 if not 4-5 to 1.

Only if you don't know what you're doing.

Speedlings and proper microing can take down a fair-sized force with proper microing. But you assume something incorrect: Zerglings are NOT the Zerg's bread-and-butter unit, like people seem to think they are. That goes to Roaches. And Roaches are probably the best infantry in the game. Zerglings are scouts and tactical strikers, meant to follow the main force and hit the supply line while the big ones draw fire. I've used four mutas as a distraction against 30 marines as a chance to sneak speedlots (with the attack speed upgrade) into an enemy's supply line. I was able to decimate EVERY SCV before he even knew what was happening. Sure, I lost the mutas, and the ZErglings, but I was able to punish his economy so much that he was unable to build up fast enough to stop my Nydus Worm full of Hydras.

I find your zealot comment funny, since 3 zerglings take down one zealot with little to no trouble.

 

[Azure Sky]

Speedlings and proper microing can take down a fair-sized force with proper microing. But you assume something incorrect: Zerglings are NOT the Zerg's bread-and-butter unit, like people seem to think they are. That goes to Roaches. And Roaches are probably the best infantry in the game. Zerglings are scouts and tactical strikers, meant to follow the main force and hit the supply line while the big ones draw fire. I've used four mutas as a distraction against 30 marines as a chance to sneak speedlots (with the attack speed upgrade) into an enemy's supply line. I was able to decimate EVERY SCV before he even knew what was happening. Sure, I lost the mutas, and the ZErglings, but I was able to punish his economy so much that he was unable to build up fast enough to stop my Nydus Worm full of Hydras.

I find your zealot comment funny, since 3 zerglings take down one zealot with little to no trouble.

No matter how upgraded they are and how well you micro them, Lings are restricted by how many you can fit around a unit in terms of damage. I unfortunately know this restriction all too well with Zealots, difference being Zealots do more damage/space around a target than Lings I believe.

I know full well that they are not the main workhorse. I just find it underwhelming that Zerg are required to reach second ground tech to get Roaches (The tech equiv for Terran is Helions I believe) Which is the most expensive to reach out of all races due to the Spawning pool costing the equiv of 250 minerals (Building 200, Drone 50) again, the highest of any first structure.
As for economy harassment, Terran do it significantly better. And any strat used against Reapers works 2 fold on Lings.

The Zealot comment stands, as the difference is rank 1 weapons tech, which let a Zealot 2 shot a Ling down from 3, giving a 33% attack performance increase over them.

 

[Zenn3k]

How to beat 95% of Zerg players as Terran:

Build 50 Marines, upgrade them to like, level 2. It requires thought, planning, and skill to beat that as a Zerg player (and thats assuming you even know its coming, Zerg have the worst scouting in the game), and that says a LOT about the balance issues plaguing Zerg.

The only two effective counters are Banelings, which are pretty useless otherwise, and Ultralisks which are aren't likely to have in time. Broodlords are TECHNICALLY a counter (a bad one) and they take just as long to get up as Ultra's do.

Zergling rush? Terran walling stops that DEAD, even with just 1-2 marines, and I can get myself walled in before you spawn your first Zergling.

Thats only how to beat 95% of terrible zerg players who are brand new to the game and have no idea how to play. Banelings are extremely usefull as zerg. I can also have 50 roaches by the time you get 10 marines, I can also have zerglings in your base and be stealing your vespin gase vents before you can wall your base in.

Are you by any chance stuck in copper or bronze leage because anywhere above that your post is pretty much 100% off.

Lawl, sir, LAWL LAWL LAWL!

Your banelings aren't going to do anything against my Cloaked Banshee rush, so have fun wasting the minerals and gas on them in the early game.

No, you cannot have 50 roaches by the time I get 10 marines, thats an impossibility, so if you insist on it being true, then you might as well not reply as nothing you say will be taken seriously.

Vent denial eh? If we are playing say...LT, unless you guess correctly (and I'm next to you), I'll be walled before you have a chance. Otherwise, I can likely grab at least one of them before you do, finish my wall, kill the remaining drone and send a marine to finish off the one you did get. So after you waste 125 minerals, and slow yourself WAY down for that spawning pool, I'm curious how you also expect to get 50 roaches before I get 10 marines. Even better, unless you DO get BOTH my Gas, you wouldn't even slow down my BO.

You are laughable sir.

Oh, and Gold League.

 

[Azure Sky]

What I meant was that since they were op in beta its only expected for them to be considered weak right now. Blizzard has a strong tendancy to nerf anything that is op so much to the point that it is rather underpowered. They have been doing it with wow for like 6 or 7 years so its not surprising they used the same tactic here.

In short, they are slightly behind the other two, at this point in time. In time, I am sure they will be fine.

Zerg still are powerfull, they are just different. Roaches being able to move while burrowed is very powerfull and extremely good for hit and run tactics, which the zerg excell at. They are actually a good distraction for getting for nydus wyrm up as well. It only has to survive for 5 seconds or so to get your whole army in their base.

It is underwhelming that the primary ground unit needs to hit and run, but thats fine I spose.
I disagree with your Nydus comment though, as once it is built, units come out single-file, which is quite slow at the best of times. Even if they didn't stop your Worm, being able to take out your force as it comes out is a little... eh?

Zerglings sole use past the 5 min mark is basically banelings. Zerglings themselves are pretty dam weak and arnt usefull I will give you that. Although 200 of them are a pain in the ass to deal with.

I didn't actually think of Banelings, but then again I never see them for me to remember them.
Answer to 200 Lings? 5-10 Helions and a choke point/ramp.

Plus muts should not be underestimated. They are expensive to make but fairly strong and easy to tech to. Another unit that is overlooked to often is the infestor. Zerg have plenty of tricks still but they are alittle more challanging to play. Give it a few months till people are more used to zerg and you will see its true power.

I will agree with Mutalisks, they are the best early tech air in the game, being able to attack both ground and air with high effectiveness. I haven't seen many people with Infestors really, I personally think they are glorified Defiler, but I don't play Zerg so I really don't know about them, see Banelings. =3

I can also have 50 roaches by the time you get 10 marines, I can also have zerglings in your base and be stealing your vespin gase vents before you can wall your base in.

While not directed at me, assuming I am aiming early units, I have yet been Ling rushed before I can get Zealots

Are you by any chance stuck in copper or bronze leage because anywhere above that your post is pretty much 100% off.

Just so we are on the same page. Me? Unranked, been too busy getting the Campaign achievements. XD
I am however 5W/1L in the placements (The loss was to another Protoss btw)
I do play against the AI reasonably often though.
(I also, by no means consider myself good at the game ^^)

 

[Azure Sky]

Your banelings aren't going to do anything against my Cloaked Banshee rush, so have fun wasting the minerals and gas on them in the early game.

A simple scout would reveal your tactic for early air, and seeing as it's either a Viking drop or Banshees, you would likely meet an army of Mutalisks with Overlord support just in case.
Edit: And before you say it, Overlord scout.

 

[Azure Sky]

I was actually talking to the guy who thinks teching cloaked banshees is good against zerg.

I know, but seeing as we are all in on the subject, I answered as well. =3

 

[Zenn3k]

Lawl, sir, LAWL LAWL LAWL!

Your banelings aren't going to do anything against my Cloaked Banshee rush, so have fun wasting the minerals and gas on them in the early game.

You cant get cloaked banshees early in the game unless your gonna sac everything to tech to them straight away. If you do that you will be dead long before you get them anyways because you have no real defense. If you do get them I will already know from scouting you and will have muts/hydras and detectors which are far easier and faster to tech to then banshees.

Vent denial eh? If we are playing say...LT, unless you guess correctly (and I'm next to you), I'll be walled before you have a chance. Otherwise, I can likely grab at least one of them before you do, finish my wall, kill the remaining drone and send a marine to finish off the one you did get. So after you waste 125 minerals, and slow yourself WAY down for that spawning pool, I'm curious how you also expect to get 50 roaches before I get 10 marines. Even better, unless you DO get BOTH my Gas, you wouldn't even slow down my BO.

You are laughable sir.

Oh, and Gold League.

Its actually only 25-75 minerals depending if you get trapped in or not and it does slow you down. Only having 1 vent will hurt your early vespen gas supply and let me get ahead of you. That although doesnt appear to do much at first glance puts your economy behind me and allows me to tech faster and get more units then you. Its also not even a slow down for me let alone as big of one as your thinking.

The strategies your suggesting are pretty terrible and unless they reworked the leagues wouldnt get you into the gold league. Unless of course gold is near the very bottom now.

Are you by any chance stuck in copper or bronze leage because anywhere above that your post is pretty much 100% off.

Just so we are on the same page. Me? Unranked, been too busy getting the Campaign achievements. XD
I am however 5W/1L in the placements (The loss was to another Protoss btw)
I do play against the AI reasonably often though.
(I also, by no means consider myself good at the game ^^)

I was actually talking to the guy who thinks teching cloaked banshees is good against zerg.

Back to the vent denial, again, it only works on obvious 1v1 maps, and likely only short ones, my first reactor is the 3rd thing in my BO (if I'm going fast tech), and I don't grab the 2nd until after my factory is up, so again, unless you DO get both of them, you aren't slowing me down as I can kill the one you took before I need it, it likely would not work, regardless, unless you use two of your starting drones (which IMO would be really stupid) its 125 minerals and would slow you down on the minerals line way more than it would slow me down on the gas line.

What defense do I need? A walled in front door and a couple marines will stop lings, a turret or two stops roach crawl into my base (detector+marines). You'll have to scout with a overlord, which I believe will make it to my base about the time my factory goes up and I'll chase or kill that overlord with my marines, by the time a 2nd overlord made it to my base, I'd already have a banshee in yours.

If I scan you and see you going Muta, I pump out some Vikings to go with my banshees and resume. I could also switch into Thor's if you go mutas after seeing my factory.

I only need 1 cloaked banshee on your supply line before you are prepared to deal with it to completely ruin you, as it'll be unlikely you'll have anything to view it. I've had many people GG the moment my cloaked banshee starts killing workers. The strategy is vastly better and faster than you think it is.

Now go build your 50 roaches so my banshee can blow them all up with immunity.

 

[TerranReaper]

As a platinum Terran player (Shock and surprise), there are a lot of problems plaguing Zerg players, and judging from forum posts and a friend that plays Zerg, they are in the underpowered side of the equation. Most players will blame Terrans for being overpowered, but they often exaggerate most of the details when it is the Zerg that is crippled by a variety of things. There is very little that a Zerg player can do against a Terran that is going mech (And really, who is not going mech against Zerg?) and units such as roaches or the placement of them in their tech tree needs work. In a sense, Zerg needs a buff more than Terrans needing a nerf.

 

[Flying-Emu]

Speedlings and proper microing can take down a fair-sized force with proper microing. But you assume something incorrect: Zerglings are NOT the Zerg's bread-and-butter unit, like people seem to think they are. That goes to Roaches. And Roaches are probably the best infantry in the game. Zerglings are scouts and tactical strikers, meant to follow the main force and hit the supply line while the big ones draw fire. I've used four mutas as a distraction against 30 marines as a chance to sneak speedlots (with the attack speed upgrade) into an enemy's supply line. I was able to decimate EVERY SCV before he even knew what was happening. Sure, I lost the mutas, and the ZErglings, but I was able to punish his economy so much that he was unable to build up fast enough to stop my Nydus Worm full of Hydras.

I find your zealot comment funny, since 3 zerglings take down one zealot with little to no trouble.

No matter how upgraded they are and how well you micro them, Lings are restricted by how many you can fit around a unit in terms of damage. I unfortunately know this restriction all too well with Zealots, difference being Zealots do more damage/space around a target than Lings I believe.

I know full well that they are not the main workhorse. I just find it underwhelming that Zerg are required to reach second ground tech to get Roaches (The tech equiv for Terran is Helions I believe) Which is the most expensive to reach out of all races due to the Spawning pool costing the equiv of 250 minerals (Building 200, Drone 50) again, the highest of any first structure.
As for economy harassment, Terran do it significantly better. And any strat used against Reapers works 2 fold on Lings.

The Zealot comment stands, as the difference is rank 1 weapons tech, which let a Zealot 2 shot a Ling down from 3, giving a 33% attack performance increase over them.

The roach's comparable unit for the Terran is the Marauder. Any decent Zerg player is going to have no trouble getting to the Roach Warren, since lings STILL go out as fast or faster than any opposing tier 1 unit.

 

[Azure Sky]

As a platinum Terran player (Shock and surprise), there are a lot of problems plaguing Zerg players, and judging from forum posts and a friend that plays Zerg, they are in the underpowered side of the equation. Most players will blame Terrans for being overpowered, but they often exaggerate most of the details when it is the Zerg that is crippled by a variety of things. There is very little that a Zerg player can do against a Terran that is going mech (And really, who is not going mech against Zerg?) and units such as roaches or the placement of them in their tech tree needs work. In a sense, Zerg needs a buff more than Terrans needing a nerf.

This is what I have been saying all evening. As a Protoss player, I see that Terran are at about where they should be but Zerg are lacking the Blizz love.
Hopefully a simple (And soonish) patch with balance things.

 

[Zenn3k]

Back to the vent denial, again, it only works on obvious 1v1 maps, and likely only short ones, my first reactor is the 3rd thing in my BO (if I'm going fast tech), and I don't grab the 2nd until after my factory is up, so again, unless you DO get both of them, you aren't slowing me down as I can kill the one you took before I need it, it likely would not work, regardless, unless you use two of your starting drones (which IMO would be really stupid) its 125 minerals and would slow you down on the minerals line way more than it would slow me down on the gas line.

What defense do I need? A walled in front door and a couple marines will stop lings, a turret or two stops roach crawl into my base (detector+marines). You'll have to scout with a overlord, which I believe will make it to my base about the time my factory goes up and I'll chase or kill that overlord with my marines, by the time a 2nd overlord made it to my base, I'd already have a banshee in yours.

If I scan you and see you going Muta, I pump out some Vikings to go with my banshees and resume. I could also switch into Thor's if you go mutas after seeing my factory.

I only need 1 cloaked banshee on your supply line before you are prepared to deal with it to completely ruin you, as it'll be unlikely you'll have anything to view it. I've had many people GG the moment my cloaked banshee starts killing workers. The strategy is vastly better and faster than you think it is.

Now go build your 50 roaches so my banshee can blow them all up with immunity.

Exactly your playing against bad players. Any decent zerg player should already have upgraded an overlord before you have a chance at getting banshees.

You mention detector+marines but seem to refuse to accept the fact that zerg also have detectors which makes your cloaked banshees useless. Unless you have a good def I could even nydus wyrm into your base as bad as that is by the time you get enough banshees to actualy hurt me. A few banelings will take out your bunker walls and my roaches will overrun your marines.

Your not playing as good players and as it stands it takes a good player to be able to play as zerg. Yes they could use a buff right now but they are far from as terrible as your making them out to be.

I never said they were good players, but I have yet to see 1 good player play Zerg.

I'd love to play as Zerg, they are my favorite race, they just suck terribly in SC2, which was my original point before you ran out screaming about 50 roaches. The queen, while a great idea, sucks to have to babysit, and currently avoid the race on that reason alone. Sporing the hive EVERY time its up is pretty much required, and its annoying.

The fact that just a ball of marines is nearly impossible to overcome to even decent zerg play (GOOD play will beat it), shows how weak the race is.

 

[Azure Sky]

The roach's comparable unit for the Terran is the Marauder. Any decent Zerg player is going to have no trouble getting to the Roach Warren, since lings STILL go out as fast or faster than any opposing tier 1 unit.

Nor do any player from what I have seen have trouble going factory at the same speed.
It is still a 4 step process if I'm not wrong. (Z: Spawning Pool > Roach Warren > Units. T: Barracks > Factory > Units. Both requiring gas.)
And unless I am incorrect, although a factory requires gas, Helions do not, as opposed to the reverse for Roaches. (Or does the Roach Warren require gas as well?)

Lings are still inferior to any opposing tier 1 unit. =3

 

[Azure Sky]

The queen, while a great idea, sucks to have to babysit, and currently avoid the race on that reason alone. Sporing the hive EVERY time its up is pretty much required, and its annoying.

While to start with it's irritating to manage, if you get into the habit of spooring whenever you 'make' units (Hotkeys work I believe) it is quite manageable, or at least so I hear.