zerg comparrison sc1 and sc2

[DarkDain]

I've been watching some vids of Argos play Zerg and he seems to manage just fine, sounds like QQ to me

There will always be people who dominate with the most underpowered weapon/race/class/whatever.

I think that zerg just needs cheaper (and better/more) upgrades. So that in the beginning they good, and after that they can still hold their own.

ALSO: walling is countered with mass banelings.

Even if you dont have enough zerglings to rush, as long as the wall is down then you have an advantage. If he moves his a lot of SCVs to make a new wall, then he'll be behind economically. If he only gets a few or one SCV to build a new wall, then you might be able to get enough banelings and zerglings to break through the wall and go on a rush. Might even be able to get in a surprise attack from behind with a few muta's if you have enough zerglings (or the skill to make them and coordinate the attack at the same time). I usually aim for the gas (if it's up), the barracks or the SCVs. Tech labs and other upgrade buildings are if I have enough to spare.

How will he be behind economically? The bling bust is dying out because they dont wall in with supply debots anymore, they'll use stronger builders so even a big bling bust is a waste. The cost of enough blings to blow down a barracks and supply depots is way more than the cost of the buildings especially in terms of gas. Also a single bunker in the base stops the zergling left over.

 

[Azure Sky]

Blizzard is going to have fun balancing Zerg.

Both races are decent vs Toss, but Toss probably has enough trouble against tier 2 and tier 3 Zerg as is.

The only problems I see with Terran is that they require very basic unit control and they have the most options out of the three races as far as strategies go. Most of the other Terran complaints don't exist on properly sized maps like Metalopolis or many of the iCCup maps.

Spoiler: Tsunami

False.

You have to outmacro a Terran or Toss player to win. Whether that means rushing early or doing tactical strikes on their supply line until you simply out-resource him, that is how you win. The Zerg aren't these weak, cowardly players that people seem to think they are: If anything, they require a remarkable amount of skill over an opposing player.

6-ling rushes are the cheapest strategy in the game, if you can even call them a strategy.
It's like starting a game of Tag with THRETWONEGOYOUREIT!!! and instantly tagging the person next to it. Sure, you win, but it's just pathetic and takes no skill whatsoever.

l2 micro your workers.

I have never been dropped by a 6-ling rush. EVER. As the Terran, you wall with depots. As the Protoss, you wall with Gateways and Pylons. As the Zerg, you fight the bastards off with your drones (there's a reason that Drones do more damage than SCVs and Probes). Here's the thing about early Zerg rushes: If they fail, and they did something BESIDES a 13+ pool, their economy is so far behind yours that you can literally wipe the floor with them by minute 10. Learn to play before discussing the strengths and weaknesses of a race. And no skill? I disagree. I think it takes no skill to BEAT an early rush, provided you have elementary micro and macro abilities. And if you don't have those, well, you should go back to C&C and leave SC2 to the big boys.

Not to mention that Lings are the most inferior combat unit in the game now.

A Marine squad is quite capable of besting a group of lings twice in number.
Zealots even more so, being able to best them 3 if not 4-5 to 1.

Only if you don't know what you're doing.

Speedlings and proper microing can take down a fair-sized force with proper microing. But you assume something incorrect: Zerglings are NOT the Zerg's bread-and-butter unit, like people seem to think they are. That goes to Roaches. And Roaches are probably the best infantry in the game. Zerglings are scouts and tactical strikers, meant to follow the main force and hit the supply line while the big ones draw fire. I've used four mutas as a distraction against 30 marines as a chance to sneak speedlots (with the attack speed upgrade) into an enemy's supply line. I was able to decimate EVERY SCV before he even knew what was happening. Sure, I lost the mutas, and the ZErglings, but I was able to punish his economy so much that he was unable to build up fast enough to stop my Nydus Worm full of Hydras.

I find your zealot comment funny, since 3 zerglings take down one zealot with little to no trouble.

1. You generally have to be ahead in bases, but you don't necessarily need more economy.

2. Drones don't do more damage than either They aren't even as strong as probes imho.

3. I agree, ling backstabs are a better use of the units than just smashing them into enemy armies, but also note that 3 lings don't really beat a Zealot. It is more like 4 properly controlled lings will easily beat a Zealot.

Wall of text detected! =3

Beta or not, this is live.

The Terran were given several new units in #2 to make up for various weaknesses in the first game. and many existing units were changed and/or buffed (Example of this, I think Marines have more health now) And as a result, they are an incredibly strong, well balanced race that can deploy its various units in many many different ways as any given situation demands. Loss of Wraiths does slow down the Terran air game though.

The Protoss, while not gaining as much as the Terran, gained the Warp In mechanic which greatly improves the speed at which they make units among other implementations. They got a teleporting Dragoon (Stalker) that basicly does the same as the old. Immortals Colossi and Void Rays, which, while more situational than the Terran improvements are still very powerful units when used correctly. And finally, the Warp Prism, which when used in conjunction with Warp In, makes the new Zerg Nydus Network look rather primitive and inferior. Although, they did lose the Scout, which leaves them a little on the lacking side aerially until Carriers.

The Zerg however, got... A new ranged ground unit that plays like a castrated Hydralisk, while the Hydra itself was moved along the tech tree to take longer to get. Nydus Network is a great improvement over the old Nydus Canals, but as I said above, is inferior to the Protoss Prism/Warp In that does the job better and faster. Brood Lords? Guardians were better. Mutalisks are unchanged, are are most other units that were in the old game, Zerglings in particular are the same as they were in the first, which when compared to the various upgrades the Marines/Marauders and Zealots received, makeing them next to useless unless you can get them out before your opponent has their Barracks/Gateway up.

I don't actually play Zerg or Terran, so I am probably missing quite a bit more on both counts, and if I am actually wrong on one or more things I have said, point it out. =3
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Also, before anyone says anything. The above is all first hand experience or first hand observation. =3

1. The Terran army has gained more options and is easier to use now in my opinion. Losing wraiths isn't a big deal as wraith centered builds required a lot of micro and attention to use effectively in Brood War.

2. Stalkers aren't dumb like Dragoons were, but they do no where near the damage and are expensive. Colossi are nice, but to be honest they killed templar tech in return. I agree that the warp prism is a better harass tool than a nydus, but it is also the least viable dropship in the game because it is so slow, expensive, and weak. Pheonixes are nice, but the real blow to toss air was the loss of the Corsair. Corsairs were air dominance for the majority of the game. The Scout was a junk unit that was only good at killing capital ships, which toss never really needed them for. The Void Ray is much better than the Scout.

3. Roaches are not bad units if used right. Spawn larvae and spine crawlers have made Zerg extremely powerful. Not to mention Hydras are extremely good all around units and roaches are great for defense and compliment hydras well. Sure zerglings do less damage than they used to, but they are still pretty good. Broodlords imo are better than Guardians mostly because of the way games go in the matchups. Guardians rarely did anything in the first game unless you were killing the computer.


RW takes no gas, but each Roach takes 25 gas.

I agree that lings are inferior to any T1 unit. Best way to make the general populace like them would be to somehow make them a hard counter to Immortals.

Since Immortals are irritating and make me cry.

As a terran player, I am surprised there has been little mention of the brood lords. if zerg can mass a couple of those, it takes a full army to take em down. They can just keep constantly spawning broodlings.

...

Vikings.

Seriously. You get vikings out so fast, and you dominate the skies. BL are t3 units that cost an absolutely ungodly amount of resources.

If anything, I'd say that BL are the one thing the Zerg DO have that can properly bunkerbust a late-game Terran (since they inevitably have obscene numbers of Siege tanks to block Baneling rushes).

1. Lings are amazing against immortals, idk why you don't think that. They are also some of the best harass units in the game.

2. The worst part of Broodlords is their immobility. Fighting Vikings is more of a micro battle if anything.

I agree that lings are inferior to any T1 unit. Best way to make the general populace like them would be to somehow make them a hard counter to Immortals.

Since Immortals are irritating and make me cry.

I really don't use Immortals as often as I should...
They just seem so expensive, and the 4 food req is kinda heavy.

That and they kinda don't slot well with my nubish Warp In strategies and Prism use. XD

Immortals aren't great past certain parts of the game, but if you use warp prisms you should think of immortal drops. You can snipe supply depots incredibly fast.

I know I am not that great of a player, but I have found that a constant stream of Zealots/Stalkers from a well placed Prism will eventually crush a lot of people. And when that tactic fails, using Warp In to drop a pack of Zealots into one resource line after another proves to be quite effective.

You can also upgrade Prism speed via the robotics bay, I believe it matches them with the other transports for speed then.

 

[Azure Sky]

Of course you can get warp prism speed, but it is just another expensive upgrade from an expensive tech building and it still doesn't change the fact that the warp prism is 200 minerals and made of paper. Sure it is a good unit overall, but still the worst 'dropship'.

Zealot/Stalker pressure and warp prism harass is a good way to play, as it is very powerful. All I'm saying is that giving Zerg or Terran buffs or nerfs could really mess up the dynamic. Warpgate pressure is also preventable by both races, although it gives Zerg more difficulty.

Hmm, it is one of the reasons I tend to avoid using it as an actual transport.

I personally think think Blizz shot them self in the foot on this one tbh.
While most of the many Terran changes doesn't change much when they face Protoss, as it is still quite balanced. Zerg vs Protoss is also reasonable from what I see. It is a fact that Terran do have an advantage over Zerg at the moment. =(

 

[Wayneguard]

Speedlings and proper microing can take down a fair-sized force with proper microing. But you assume something incorrect: Zerglings are NOT the Zerg's bread-and-butter unit, like people seem to think they are. That goes to Roaches. And Roaches are probably the best infantry in the game. Zerglings are scouts and tactical strikers, meant to follow the main force and hit the supply line while the big ones draw fire. I've used four mutas as a distraction against 30 marines as a chance to sneak speedlots (with the attack speed upgrade) into an enemy's supply line. I was able to decimate EVERY SCV before he even knew what was happening. Sure, I lost the mutas, and the ZErglings, but I was able to punish his economy so much that he was unable to build up fast enough to stop my Nydus Worm full of Hydras.

This guy has it exactly. Roaches are one of the scariest units in the game (not saying they don't have counters so don't anyone say USE TANKS N MARAUDREZ ROFLUSUX). I've played terran for years in sc1 and play terran now in sc2 and I can tell you that the combination I want to see least when I play a zerg is roaches and hydras. As this guy said, roaches are definitely the bread and butter zerg unit in sc2.

 

[Neuromaster]

Link [http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3661355/] to TLO playing very, very well against Terran with almost nothing but Zerglings & Infestors. Loved watching him spread creep like mad & abuse sick mobility/burrow.

Naturally, YMMV at different levels etc. But I think it's clear that there're more than a few different ways of playing ZvT successfully.