Zero Punctuation: Dark Souls

[Black Phoenix]

I'm forced to add my own voice to those of the people who didn't realise they had to go up the stairs from the Firelink Shrine at first, but then, my inital reaction wasn't 'ooh, where do I go next?' but rather' ooh, building, let's explore it!'. I ended up on a small cliff with 4 chests, and the only exit I could see opened out right above the skeleton enemies. After that I did go up the stairs, and this is the embarrassing part. I fought may way up there, stodd there, right next to the aqueduct entrance, and just straight up didn't notice it! I thought it was a dead end. Cue half an hour of trying to fight the skeletons, when i eventually look online and find out I was supposed to go up after all -_-
Also, having to talk to people more than once for anything useful keeps catching me out. I've never spoken to the NPC by the bonfire in Firelink more than once, so I missed that hint entirely. The priest there who lets you join a Covenant caught me out as well. I was wondering why everyone said you could join one by talking to him, when both times I'd spoken to him (2 different characters, I restarted fairly early after wasting my entire inventory of my first character on those darn skellies) he told me to go away.

Now I'm getting into the game (just beaten those gargoyles, albeit with Solaire), I've got to agree it's pretty fun. The control scheme took some getting used to, and not being able to cancel attacks to roll out of the way keeps catching me out (I'm still not used to an XBox controller, why is the D-Pad where the left analogue stick should be? ), but now I'm getting a grasp on it, I;m enjoying it more

 

[Alarien]

There's nothing wrong with beating the encounters, particularly on your first run, with Solaire. It actually increases enemy health by 50%, so, while you're getting boosted, so is your enemy. Never really a problem on NG, but if you take help into some of the NG+ enemies, it can really hurt you (4 Kings is bad NG+ unless your DPS is really strong).

Hell, I take Solaire with me to the last boss almost every time. I hate trying to simply pro-parry him down and, if you don't, he becomes a rather annoying and cheap fight. I should start a thread to talk about the difference between really excellently balanced enemies (Artorius, Manus, Quelaag) and enemies that are either cheap (Gwyn, non you parrying everything edition), broken (Bed of Chaos, duh), or just missed brilliance because of some bad design choice (no hit collision detection/friendly blocking between Ornstein and Smough, meaning Ornstein will constantly hit you THROUGH Smough, which is lame).

Also, the ability to not simply cancel out of an animation into a roll is actually a good thing, in my opinion. I think the instant "get out of jail" card in a lot of modern brawlers and action games really acts more as a detriment to the game. You never have to really understand your animation and commit to your attack, so there's very little strategy other than [mash mash mash DODGE! mash mash mash DODGE]. With DS you need to understand the enemy's openings and manage your animation timing and endurance. It's more strategic.

 

[Sotanaht]

I love to compare this to the Demon's Souls review from a few years back

It really highlights the difference between him actually playing the game and just quitting right off the bat. The games themselves are pretty much identical as far as the reviews are concerned.

 

[Machine Man 1992]

As thus the children squealed with glee as Santa came round and didn't slap them for once, so they told him to play another Mario game in hopes he make like it... then he started slapping them again because that was a very stupid idea, children.

Whilst I do like it more when he finds a game he likes (can add one to my collection) I do get the feeling the Dark Souls "fanboys" will start preening with intolerable smugness... like those damn rabbits in that one gif.

Spoiler

If it makes you feel any better, I fully admit to viewing fans of this game as lesser people in my eyes.

I hate this game so much, it's made me a fan hater, the very thing I tried to avoid being.

But it is a good pain.

 

[o_d]

and the lore is fucking amazing

yup yup yup!!! The storytelling of Dark Souls is one of its most under-appreciated aspects. Like Metroid Prime you piece the story together through inferences and cues, and the payoff is exceptional.

 

[Setch Dreskar]

As thus the children squealed with glee as Santa came round and didn't slap them for once, so they told him to play another Mario game in hopes he make like it... then he started slapping them again because that was a very stupid idea, children.

Whilst I do like it more when he finds a game he likes (can add one to my collection) I do get the feeling the Dark Souls "fanboys" will start preening with intolerable smugness... like those damn rabbits in that one gif.

Spoiler

If it makes you feel any better, I fully admit to viewing fans of this game as lesser people in my eyes.

I hate this game so much, it's made me a fan hater, the very thing I tried to avoid being.

But it is a good pain.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/8649-Joy-Begets-Anger

Based on what you just said, I think it fits you just right.

 

[carpathic]

I just know that I will never be good enough at games to enjoy Dark Souls. I am also totally okay with this. The game looks pretty and seems neat (which automatically gives it at least 2/5 on my "will I play it?" scale) but I feel like the frustration of this game would likely just drive me insane.

Thus, I will avoid it, even though I suspect it is fun. One rake-face would likely be enough for a good controller spike. This would mean that I had no controllers left.

Thus, i will avoid. I certainly congratulate others who are more mature than me in the face of game-adversity!

 

[Trishbot]

I'm am SO on the edge of getting this game. I've put it off for years now, scared of the difficulty and obtuse mechanics.

Someone care to convince me? Or shall I forever be doomed to look longingly into the void of darkness, never able to muster the courage or fortitude to venture beyond the veil and risk my health and sanity for the greater good?

 

[mohamedgna]

Doesn't this game share all of the gripes Yahtzee had with Demon's Souls? (steep difficulty, dead/undead dichotomy, lack of pause, internet post-it notes etc...) it's even by the same developer, so how come Yahtzee loves this game for the same reason he hated the other? and if Yahtzee is now accustomed to the difficulty does that mean he'll give the other one another try?

 

[EvilRoy]

I'm am SO on the edge of getting this game. I've put it off for years now, scared of the difficulty and obtuse mechanics.

Someone care to convince me? Or shall I forever be doomed to look longingly into the void of darkness, never able to muster the courage or fortitude to venture beyond the veil and risk my health and sanity for the greater good?

I bought it on a steam sale for like 10 bucks if I remember, and I don't regret it. Normally I'm not one for very difficult games - hence waiting for a low price - but I found with this one a simple willingness to use a spoiler-free wiki or faq to get the basics down is enough to get you past the wall Yahtzee mentioned.

The major issues are really just those of mechanics and approach. The game itself is pretty opaque about how invasions, kindling, hollowing/unhollowing, summoning NPCs/Co-op Players and status effects work, but a brief read of the basics from a faq and some previous knowledge from games in general is usually enough. My primary stumbling block in the game was that they never explicitly tell you what your stats will do for you in the long run - resulting in a few wasted hours as I realised I had made a build so bad the difficulty was artificially inflating. Boning up on what stats are good and what are useless is a really good thing to look at before starting. Personally I suggest looking at a couple spoiler free skill point builds just to get an idea of what kind of fighter uses which points.

So long as you keep in mind that a boss you can't beat in say two or three tries likely has an alternate approach or a weakness you don't know about, the game difficulty is actually pretty reasonable - given the aforementioned requisite knowledge. And as Yahtzee mentioned, if a boss really is too much to take then the best option is to just leave for another area and come back.

If you need convincing from a gameplay perspective, I can say that the levels are typically beautiful barring a single brief area that is ugly as hell. The pallets used vary greatly, though they tend to lead logically from one area to the next - so no worries about getting stuck in a grey brown colourscape for the duration of the game. The boss music is pretty fantastic and typically matches the feel of the fights very well. In some cases despite certain bosses taking me to school I still found their design and music so enjoyable I didn't really feel frustration until the fourth or fifth death - both the woods and anor londo area bosses had this effect on me.

Even the areas that are completely optional (there are at least three maybe more that I can think of off the top of my head) are well made for unique gameplay and beautiful design despite being completely miss-able and wholly unnecessary to beating the game.

Co-op/multiplay is interestingly implimented - although somewhat rife with smartass comments (the red messages on the ground Yahtzee mentioned). It can generally be very helpful to play online, and luckily now that the game is a bit older the incidence of ganking seems to be very low compared to what I saw people noting when the game was released. The hints can get you through the odd bits, and the summons can save you from too many replays of a given boss.

I guess my ultimate opinion of the game is that despite its opacity and - in some sections - near unfair difficulty, it is so well made that it is hard to really complain about it. Except for the Havok physics, but that's pretty much just hilarious.

 

[Machine Man 1992]

As thus the children squealed with glee as Santa came round and didn't slap them for once, so they told him to play another Mario game in hopes he make like it... then he started slapping them again because that was a very stupid idea, children.

Whilst I do like it more when he finds a game he likes (can add one to my collection) I do get the feeling the Dark Souls "fanboys" will start preening with intolerable smugness... like those damn rabbits in that one gif.

Spoiler

If it makes you feel any better, I fully admit to viewing fans of this game as lesser people in my eyes.

I hate this game so much, it's made me a fan hater, the very thing I tried to avoid being.

But it is a good pain.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/8649-Joy-Begets-Anger

Based on what you just said, I think it fits you just right.

And I fully own that, because the fact that people actually like this game is so antithetical to everything I thought I knew about the world, that I can't not hate it.

Plus most of the fans are the kind of smug douchebags that make me wonder just how bad prison is, because a stay in the Big House would be worth shutting them up permanently. (an exaggeration, obviously)

But that is niether here nor there. I'm gonna slam me a six pack, put on some Three Dog Night, and try to forget this game even exists

 

[o_d]

Here's the thing. Its a monster fighting game. You fight monsters. You are a dude whose sole purpose is to fight monsters. And you found a monster. And you're a monster fighter, in a monster fighting game. And you're tell me you're first thought was to run away from the monster, to not fight the monster because the monster is too big?!
God help you if you ever play Shadows of the Colossus - you'll never get anything done!

There's a message on the floor before the giant monster enters that says 'Run away'.

 

[Alarien]

I love to compare this to the Demon's Souls review from a few years back

It really highlights the difference between him actually playing the game and just quitting right off the bat. The games themselves are pretty much identical as far as the reviews are concerned.

Look guys, let's all be really honest with ourselves here. I loved Demon's Souls but Demon's Souls and Dark Souls have some VERY significant differences with Dark Souls being the more intuitive and accessible of the two by a very long shot.

1) Progression: Demon's Souls has a weird progression of 5 disconnected worlds. Intuition says go from your starting location in Boletaria, world "1-1" directly into "1-2." I'm sure a lot of us did this, and got facerolled by the dragon, then the archers/knights, the dogs, and then Tower Knight. It was frustrating as hell, and that's where Yahtzee quit. It is not intuitive to complete 1-1 and then know that the smart thing is to go to 2-1, and then maybe 4-1, then maybe try 2-2 or 3-1. It's all a bit of "test the waters" and decide with each location whether you are ready for it. While that's not a BAD thing, per se, it's not intuitive by any means, and can lead to frustration.

2) Difficulty: Demon's Souls was harder. Dark Souls has some really fun, challenging sections, but it is also a lot more progressive in regards to it's difficulty. A lot of the harder enemies you meet early can be completely bypassed. Black Knights, Havel, several of the Baldur Knights, the Berenike Knights, Hellkite; many of these are optional (some more than others) in the early game. However, I remember having to face down a lot of the nastier knights, the Fat Officials, those godawful Illithid/Mindflayer bastards in Latria, without much option to simply bypass. Also, while many of the Dark Souls bosses were challenging, I think the Demon's Souls ones, for the most part, were a bit more so. Flamelurker (until I just rolled around naked shooting him with homing soul arrows) and Maneater are, frankly, harder than anything I faced in Dark Souls. O&S is only really tough because they don't hit or collision detect each other properly. Bed of Chaos isn't hard... it's broken.

3) Punishment: Demon's Souls punishes the player a lot more. Half your health for soul mode? That's way worse than just being "hollowed." Soul level loss to various possible factors? Brutal. Every time you die (can't remember if you had to be in human form or not, I think you did...) you push the world tendency towards black, making the place more difficult? Pretty rough.

4) Obscurity: A lot of the reason that many Dark Souls players were comfortable with the attributes is because they were already fully aware of the way they worked from Demon's Souls. Show of hands, how many people started a Knight in Demon's Souls and then later discovered fastrolling when they took off their armor? I was one of the ones who did this and then realized "well crap, this makes things a lot easier." The Demon's Souls community fed information into the Dark Souls community, making the world of Dark Souls feel less obtuse/obscure, but in Demon's Souls, that information was less immediately available to the populace at large.

Don't get me wrong, I adore Demon's Souls, but I do think that expecting someone to like Demon's Souls purely based on whether they liked Dark Souls is a bit premature. I think there is a high likelihood, but we tend to brush over a lot of the improvements to intuitiveness and accessibility that went into Dark Souls, which Demon's Souls lacked.

 

[Grimh]

I beat Ornstein and Smough on my first try. Ahahahahahaaaaaa. *smug* *smug*

Seriously though it's a real fun game.
I didn't find it or Demon's Souls that obtuse. Some people make it sound like you're dropped in a pitch black environment (heh) and then vaguely implied to go northwest without a compass.
I'm exaggerating but it does feel like they seemed to miss quite a lot of things it seems they shouldn't have.
But I do agree that it wouldn't dramatically hurt the game or anything if it had a little bit more direction at a few points and with some of it's systems.

It definitely is not for everyone, but it definitely is for me.

 

[XSTALKERX]

3 years late and not a moment too soon.

I've never agreed with Yahtzee so much in my life! From the Symphony of the Night comparison, to the smug players(I was very liberal with looking stuff up myself). Even down to the games I played after it being so much easier.

Y'know, I guess this is the right place I wrote a 57 page comic of my entire Dark Souls playthrough. [http://clockworkpandas.com/comic/the-dark-souls-adventures-1/]

The game was THAT good.

Hi, I just wanted to say that I've read your entire comic on Dark Souls and thoroughly enjoyed it I loved how funny you made it and how true it all was at the same time. Keep up the good work, it's a great comic.

 

[Alarien]

I beat Ornstein and Smough on my first

Well, depending on your character and playstyle that either is or is not impressive. Playing a sorcerer, I simply laughed at them. Playing a melee, focusing on killing Smough first to get the Leo Ring and Ornstein's armor, it was a lot harder.

 

[Blackpapa]

Nice timing, I installed dark souls a week ago and uninstalled it just before coming here. I got to Sen Fortress before giving up.

Dark Souls isn't a good game. It's a difficult and frustrating one. Players looking for difficult and frustrating experiences will, in between cutting themselves, overlook the flaws of this game because of the difficulty.

This game reminds me of marathon running. There's nothing particularly *fun* about struggling with exhaustion, physical pain, arthritis, aching muscles and torn ligaments. Still, people do it and they're fond of it same way DS players are.

The taurus boss I defeated using a cheap exploit by climbing up and down the ladder.

The gargoyles I was unable to beat in a reasonable amount of time so I downloaded a trainer and enabled godmode. I used a couple of cheats to increase endurance - sure, I could've farmed the souls for 3 or 4 days, but I have better things to do.

Ultimately I gave up on the Sen Fortress level once I realized the only emotions the game gives rise to are anger and frustration or scorn and indifference.

I'm handing over my gaming badge. Maybe I can't complete dark souls, but I bet you can't hold your hand over a lighter flame as long as I can.

 

[Sotanaht]

I love to compare this to the Demon's Souls review from a few years back

It really highlights the difference between him actually playing the game and just quitting right off the bat. The games themselves are pretty much identical as far as the reviews are concerned.

Look guys, let's all be really honest with ourselves here. I loved Demon's Souls but Demon's Souls and Dark Souls have some VERY significant differences with Dark Souls being the more intuitive and accessible of the two by a very long shot.

1) Progression: Demon's Souls has a weird progression of 5 disconnected worlds. Intuition says go from your starting location in Boletaria, world "1-1" directly into "1-2." I'm sure a lot of us did this, and got facerolled by the dragon, then the archers/knights, the dogs, and then Tower Knight. It was frustrating as hell, and that's where Yahtzee quit. It is not intuitive to complete 1-1 and then know that the smart thing is to go to 2-1, and then maybe 4-1, then maybe try 2-2 or 3-1. It's all a bit of "test the waters" and decide with each location whether you are ready for it. While that's not a BAD thing, per se, it's not intuitive by any means, and can lead to frustration.

2) Difficulty: Demon's Souls was harder. Dark Souls has some really fun, challenging sections, but it is also a lot more progressive in regards to it's difficulty. A lot of the harder enemies you meet early can be completely bypassed. Black Knights, Havel, several of the Baldur Knights, the Berenike Knights, Hellkite; many of these are optional (some more than others) in the early game. However, I remember having to face down a lot of the nastier knights, the Fat Officials, those godawful Illithid/Mindflayer bastards in Latria, without much option to simply bypass. Also, while many of the Dark Souls bosses were challenging, I think the Demon's Souls ones, for the most part, were a bit more so. Flamelurker (until I just rolled around naked shooting him with homing soul arrows) and Maneater are, frankly, harder than anything I faced in Dark Souls. O&S is only really tough because they don't hit or collision detect each other properly. Bed of Chaos isn't hard... it's broken.

3) Punishment: Demon's Souls punishes the player a lot more. Half your health for soul mode? That's way worse than just being "hollowed." Soul level loss to various possible factors? Brutal. Every time you die (can't remember if you had to be in human form or not, I think you did...) you push the world tendency towards black, making the place more difficult? Pretty rough.

4) Obscurity: A lot of the reason that many Dark Souls players were comfortable with the attributes is because they were already fully aware of the way they worked from Demon's Souls. Show of hands, how many people started a Knight in Demon's Souls and then later discovered fastrolling when they took off their armor? I was one of the ones who did this and then realized "well crap, this makes things a lot easier." The Demon's Souls community fed information into the Dark Souls community, making the world of Dark Souls feel less obtuse/obscure, but in Demon's Souls, that information was less immediately available to the populace at large.

Don't get me wrong, I adore Demon's Souls, but I do think that expecting someone to like Demon's Souls purely based on whether they liked Dark Souls is a bit premature. I think there is a high likelihood, but we tend to brush over a lot of the improvements to intuitiveness and accessibility that went into Dark Souls, which Demon's Souls lacked.

As far as the reviews are concerned I said.

In this review, he notes the metroidvania qualities of dark souls, of exploring other areas to find out which ones he is prepared to face. If he can do that in Dark, he can do it in Demon's even more easily. Also try to remember that neither of the reviews were anywhere close to the launch of their respective games, AND he did outside research on dark souls before playing it. All in all, if he had gone into Demon's Souls exactly the same way he did Dark Souls, the review and opinion would be almost identical. Maybe a mention of World Tendancy or soul form health, but that's pretty much it.

 

[Insideout Ink Demon]

woah, Yahtzee liked it?
it isn't a subtle joke that I didnt quite get? he does like it?

well then, welcome to the party. hope DS2 gets an earlier review.

 

[The Dead Singer]

Yes! Hell yes!

This review pretty much forced me to make an account - So pleasantly surprised by this. Can't wait for the DS2 review now.