Zero Punctuation: Detroit: Become Human

Erttheking

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Wait, did the abusive dad really fucking talk about how much he was going to enjoy beating his daughter? Is that an actual scene or Yahtzee being hyperbolic? Because if so, I seriously have to question how people can view that as a shocking look at domestic abuse.

Also

what, did the asshole buy a fucking robot daughter and then a robot maid? For an asshole who lives in a dilapidated house, he sure has a lot of money to throw around. And why the shit would he do that?

So I'll just throw something out there, anyone who's interested in a robot focused game where inequality and lost jobs caused by automation is actually a theme (granted not the only theme) play Subsurface Circular. It's by the guy who made Thomas Was Alone, and while it's a short game that's mainly about a robot cop having talks on the subway, it's a thousand times more interesting than anything David Cage ever made.

Plus it's only six bucks.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
If they wanted a real twist they would have included Undertale and just let you play that after the half way point so people would feel something.
 

Callate

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I was concerned for a moment, there, that the "David Cage Twist" was going to involve a broom handle.
 

Canadamus Prime

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You really do get the impression that David Cage would much rather be making films.

EDIT: Besides hasn't the concept of humanity, AI, and androids been explored much better in other mediums? Things like Blade Runner, Bicentennial Man, AI: Artificial Intelligence, Star Trek: The Next Generation...
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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So has anyone actually seen David Cage? Like in person? Or talked to him? 'cause the more I hear of his shit games, the less I think he's a real person. Kinda' like Keyser Soze except its a group of like 15 random people who all just throw out single ideas or thoughts, they're jumbled together into something approaching a character and instead of putting their names on it, they just use David Cage.
So every character has a dozen distinct personalities, multiple backstories and actions, none of which ever gel together into a real person because every one was written one sentence at a time by 15 different people. And for completion, in 12 different languages and then Google translate is used to explain the terrible grammar and sentence structure.

it just seems like someone this bad at acting human and knowing what humans act like can't possible exist. In a vacum if I were to say David cage games are actually written by an AI program that only knows of humans from Fanfic.net searches and Twitter it'd make more sense than the thought of a grown man writing this soup.
 

Apothecary2

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erttheking said:
Wait, did the abusive dad really fucking talk about how much he was going to enjoy beating his daughter? Is that an actual scene or Yahtzee being hyperbolic? Because if so, I seriously have to question how people can view that as a shocking look at domestic abuse.

Also

what, did the asshole buy a fucking robot daughter and then a robot maid? For an asshole who lives in a dilapidated house, he sure has a lot of money to throw around. And why the shit would he do that?

So I'll just throw something out there, anyone who's interested in a robot focused game where inequality and lost jobs caused by automation is actually a theme (granted not the only theme) play Subsurface Circular. It's by the guy who made Thomas Was Alone, and while it's a short game that's mainly about a robot cop having talks on the subway, it's a thousand times more interesting than anything David Cage ever made.

Plus it's only six bucks.
It is later shown that Kara only costs $800. Under 2038 inflation. The androids became very cheap. The question of why he would is also answered at the end of the game if you make the correct choices.
 

Apothecary2

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Canadamus Prime said:
You really do get the impression that David Cage would much rather be making films.

EDIT: Besides hasn't the concept of humanity, AI, and androids been explored much better in other mediums? Things like Blade Runner, Bicentennial Man, AI: Artificial Intelligence, Star Trek: The Next Generation...
Well he certainly does much more with the interactivity of gaming than Neil Druckmann does. And while Kojima has great interactive playfulness in his games, his actual storytelling is just bloated cutscenes.

Academically it is believed that since video games are a newer medium with unique ways to experience them, games stories to not have to be original in the grand scheme of things. Interactivity can be used to tell old stories in new ways. The same way film is treated differently from novels.
 

mysecondlife

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I always look forward to a David Cage game videos, especially since Peter Molyneux has gone silent.
 

darkrage6

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Eh I personally dig Cage's games and think this was his best one yet. Wonder if Yahtzee will check out State of Decay 2.
 

darkrage6

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Silentpony said:
So has anyone actually seen David Cage? Like in person? Or talked to him? 'cause the more I hear of his shit games, the less I think he's a real person. Kinda' like Keyser Soze except its a group of like 15 random people who all just throw out single ideas or thoughts, they're jumbled together into something approaching a character and instead of putting their names on it, they just use David Cage.
So every character has a dozen distinct personalities, multiple backstories and actions, none of which ever gel together into a real person because every one was written one sentence at a time by 15 different people. And for completion, in 12 different languages and then Google translate is used to explain the terrible grammar and sentence structure.

it just seems like someone this bad at acting human and knowing what humans act like can't possible exist. In a vacum if I were to say David cage games are actually written by an AI program that only knows of humans from Fanfic.net searches and Twitter it'd make more sense than the thought of a grown man writing this soup.
I'm personally in agreement with Laura Kate Dale on David Cage, this dialogue always seemed fine to me, but then again I have autism(as does Laura) so that might be why i'm not bothered by it. Her review largely sums up my own thoughts on the game:http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2018/05/24/detroit-become-human-succeeds-by-focusing-on-small-timely-stories
 

darkrage6

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Canadamus Prime said:
You really do get the impression that David Cage would much rather be making films.

EDIT: Besides hasn't the concept of humanity, AI, and androids been explored much better in other mediums? Things like Blade Runner, Bicentennial Man, AI: Artificial Intelligence, Star Trek: The Next Generation...
I don't know, I think he's happy playing around with what a game truly is, and i'd certainly put his works above that of the Chinese Room.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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darkrage6 said:
Silentpony said:
So has anyone actually seen David Cage? Like in person? Or talked to him? 'cause the more I hear of his shit games, the less I think he's a real person. Kinda' like Keyser Soze except its a group of like 15 random people who all just throw out single ideas or thoughts, they're jumbled together into something approaching a character and instead of putting their names on it, they just use David Cage.
So every character has a dozen distinct personalities, multiple backstories and actions, none of which ever gel together into a real person because every one was written one sentence at a time by 15 different people. And for completion, in 12 different languages and then Google translate is used to explain the terrible grammar and sentence structure.

it just seems like someone this bad at acting human and knowing what humans act like can't possible exist. In a vacum if I were to say David cage games are actually written by an AI program that only knows of humans from Fanfic.net searches and Twitter it'd make more sense than the thought of a grown man writing this soup.
I'm personally in agreement with Laura Kate Dale on David Cage, this dialogue always seemed fine to me, but then again I have autism(as does Laura) so that might be why i'm not bothered by it. Her review largely sums up my own thoughts on the game:http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2018/05/24/detroit-become-human-succeeds-by-focusing-on-small-timely-stories
Does david cage has autism? I hadn't heard but if he does that might explain it. If he doesn't though, I'm not sure what to make of him. As someone who doesn't have autism, his dialogue is random bordering on non sequitur, with every character acting like someone out of Alice in Wonderland or Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
 

Burnouts3s3

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I enjoyed this interactive movie from David Cage, but Yahtzee is absolutely correct in his assessment in Cage's writing. It's still really amateur and doesn't work all the way through. I felt that the Deviant Hunter, Connor and Clancy Brown's character, Hank, had the best story in the game and their dynamic worked like gangbusters. But Markus' story, where he's this Android Messiah who's going to be a Civil Rights leader, falls completely flat.

One of the things I liked was the 'fail states are not game overs' mechanic Cage brought over from Heavy Rain. So if a certain character dies, the game goes on without them which I thought was pretty smart.

erttheking said:
what, did the asshole buy a fucking robot daughter and then a robot maid? For an asshole who lives in a dilapidated house, he sure has a lot of money to throw around. And why the shit would he do that?
Todd, the abusive asshole, is a drug dealer who's wife left him and took his biological daughter. Todd bought the robot child to 'prove' that he can be a good parent only to show he can't an even to a robot he's still an abusive asshole. Again, it doesn't really 'work' as a narrative but it's sort of interesting.


Kara and Alice can get into a scenario which they are taken to the Recycling center(It's basically a concentration camp for robots. Yes, really). Kara can have a number of options but Alice will also be in danger as well. The purpose is to have Alice also be in danger. If she was human, she wouldn't be in the same situation as Kara and be safe.

Again, Yahtzee is right in that the story was much stronger when the player thought Alice was human but then we wouldn't have that ending.

Like I said, I enjoyed the game but it's flawed as all hell.
 

Darth_Payn

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Wait a minute: A.I., advanced robotics, and social inequality in Detroit? That lazy ************, Cage just stole that from Deus Ex: Human Revolution! I definitely didn't ask for this!
 

Canadamus Prime

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Apothecary2 said:
Canadamus Prime said:
You really do get the impression that David Cage would much rather be making films.

EDIT: Besides hasn't the concept of humanity, AI, and androids been explored much better in other mediums? Things like Blade Runner, Bicentennial Man, AI: Artificial Intelligence, Star Trek: The Next Generation...
Well he certainly does much more with the interactivity of gaming than Neil Druckmann does. And while Kojima has great interactive playfulness in his games, his actual storytelling is just bloated cutscenes.

Academically it is believed that since video games are a newer medium with unique ways to experience them, games stories to not have to be original in the grand scheme of things. Interactivity can be used to tell old stories in new ways. The same way film is treated differently from novels.
If you can call what you do in David Cage games "interactive," sure. Well that's not really fair of me to say since I've not actually played any of them and I'm mostly going of other people's reactions to them and clips I've seen. I do get the impression that some people just don't know how to use the medium of games to tell a story, David Cage included.

You're right, games do have the potential to tell old stories in new and interesting ways. I get the impression though that this game fails to do that.
 

Schadrach

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erttheking said:
Wait, did the abusive dad really fucking talk about how much he was going to enjoy beating his daughter? Is that an actual scene or Yahtzee being hyperbolic? Because if so, I seriously have to question how people can view that as a shocking look at domestic abuse.

Also

what, did the asshole buy a fucking robot daughter and then a robot maid? For an asshole who lives in a dilapidated house, he sure has a lot of money to throw around. And why the shit would he do that?

So I'll just throw something out there, anyone who's interested in a robot focused game where inequality and lost jobs caused by automation is actually a theme (granted not the only theme) play Subsurface Circular. It's by the guy who made Thomas Was Alone, and while it's a short game that's mainly about a robot cop having talks on the subway, it's a thousand times more interesting than anything David Cage ever made.

Plus it's only six bucks.
I assume the housing situation is a result of his technophilia.
 

Igor-Rowan

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I'm watching the Best Friends play the game, because I knew for a fact when they get to the part with the bus and the Androids in the back it would be hilarious.

My favorite moment so far is the Maid Android getting in front of the TV while she cleans the house, and when she gets yelled at she programs an invisible wall for herself in order to not do it again. That's clever, I want more of that.
 

darkrage6

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Silentpony said:
darkrage6 said:
Silentpony said:
So has anyone actually seen David Cage? Like in person? Or talked to him? 'cause the more I hear of his shit games, the less I think he's a real person. Kinda' like Keyser Soze except its a group of like 15 random people who all just throw out single ideas or thoughts, they're jumbled together into something approaching a character and instead of putting their names on it, they just use David Cage.
So every character has a dozen distinct personalities, multiple backstories and actions, none of which ever gel together into a real person because every one was written one sentence at a time by 15 different people. And for completion, in 12 different languages and then Google translate is used to explain the terrible grammar and sentence structure.

it just seems like someone this bad at acting human and knowing what humans act like can't possible exist. In a vacum if I were to say David cage games are actually written by an AI program that only knows of humans from Fanfic.net searches and Twitter it'd make more sense than the thought of a grown man writing this soup.
I'm personally in agreement with Laura Kate Dale on David Cage, this dialogue always seemed fine to me, but then again I have autism(as does Laura) so that might be why i'm not bothered by it. Her review largely sums up my own thoughts on the game:http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2018/05/24/detroit-become-human-succeeds-by-focusing-on-small-timely-stories
Does david cage has autism? I hadn't heard but if he does that might explain it. If he doesn't though, I'm not sure what to make of him. As someone who doesn't have autism, his dialogue is random bordering on non sequitur, with every character acting like someone out of Alice in Wonderland or Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
I don't know for sure if he does, but it wouldn't surprise me if that was he case.
 

darkrage6

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Darth_Payn said:
Wait a minute: A.I., advanced robotics, and social inequality in Detroit? That lazy ************, Cage just stole that from Deus Ex: Human Revolution! I definitely didn't ask for this!
Not really no.
 

darkrage6

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erttheking said:
Wait, did the abusive dad really fucking talk about how much he was going to enjoy beating his daughter? Is that an actual scene or Yahtzee being hyperbolic? Because if so, I seriously have to question how people can view that as a shocking look at domestic abuse.

Also

what, did the asshole buy a fucking robot daughter and then a robot maid? For an asshole who lives in a dilapidated house, he sure has a lot of money to throw around. And why the shit would he do that?

So I'll just throw something out there, anyone who's interested in a robot focused game where inequality and lost jobs caused by automation is actually a theme (granted not the only theme) play Subsurface Circular. It's by the guy who made Thomas Was Alone, and while it's a short game that's mainly about a robot cop having talks on the subway, it's a thousand times more interesting than anything David Cage ever made.

Plus it's only six bucks.
I think Detroit is plenty interesting, I largely agree with Angry Joe's review:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiphSNWXIfM&feature=push-u-sub&attr_tag=-w26D1B3q0q5-Vgp-6
 

Aiddon_v1legacy

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Definitely doesn't help that Cage is now under investigation by Parisian authorities for creating a hostile work environment full of racism and sexual harassment. Would definitely make his commentaries in Become Human ring hollow.

At this point there's really not a whole lot more that can be said about Cage. He's a horrible writer who doesn't understand the inherent strengths of film or gaming so he can't tell a story worth a damn. The only reason he gained a reputation was because he was doing story-focused games at a time when the industry was being very, VERY insecure about itself, basically even saying that all narrative games until then were always bad. Quite disrespectful looking back to those awkward days (see also: Ninja Theory).
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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Aiddon said:
Definitely doesn't help that Cage is now under investigation by Parisian authorities for creating a hostile work environment full of racism and sexual harassment. Would definitely make his commentaries in Become Human ring hollow.

At this point there's really not a whole lot more that can be said about Cage. He's a horrible writer who doesn't understand the inherent strengths of film or gaming so he can't tell a story worth a damn. The only reason he gained a reputation was because he was doing story-focused games at a time when the industry was being very, VERY insecure about itself, basically even saying that all narrative games until then were always bad. Quite disrespectful looking back to those awkward days (see also: Ninja Theory).
Oh shit I hadn't heard any of that. When did this get reported?
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Aiddon said:
Definitely doesn't help that Cage is now under investigation by Parisian authorities for creating a hostile work environment full of racism and sexual harassment. Would definitely make his commentaries in Become Human ring hollow.

At this point there's really not a whole lot more that can be said about Cage. He's a horrible writer who doesn't understand the inherent strengths of film or gaming so he can't tell a story worth a damn. The only reason he gained a reputation was because he was doing story-focused games at a time when the industry was being very, VERY insecure about itself, basically even saying that all narrative games until then were always bad. Quite disrespectful looking back to those awkward days (see also: Ninja Theory).
I just support him for the fact he's even making a game that's not an online multiplayer grind fest that will be obsolete once the next installment comes out. And I am a graphics whore, but than again David Cage no longer has a monopoly on "Photo Realistic Graphics and Human models" since pretty much every other AAA dev is doing it.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Silentpony said:
Aiddon said:
Definitely doesn't help that Cage is now under investigation by Parisian authorities for creating a hostile work environment full of racism and sexual harassment. Would definitely make his commentaries in Become Human ring hollow.

At this point there's really not a whole lot more that can be said about Cage. He's a horrible writer who doesn't understand the inherent strengths of film or gaming so he can't tell a story worth a damn. The only reason he gained a reputation was because he was doing story-focused games at a time when the industry was being very, VERY insecure about itself, basically even saying that all narrative games until then were always bad. Quite disrespectful looking back to those awkward days (see also: Ninja Theory).
Oh shit I hadn't heard any of that. When did this get reported?
Apperently David Cage and his studio filed a lawsuit against the Media outlet that reported on that negative coverage:

https://www.pcgamer.com/david-cages-quantic-dream-sues-french-media-outlets-over-negative-coverage/

Don't know if that proves he's guilty or not.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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Samtemdo8 said:
Silentpony said:
Aiddon said:
Definitely doesn't help that Cage is now under investigation by Parisian authorities for creating a hostile work environment full of racism and sexual harassment. Would definitely make his commentaries in Become Human ring hollow.

At this point there's really not a whole lot more that can be said about Cage. He's a horrible writer who doesn't understand the inherent strengths of film or gaming so he can't tell a story worth a damn. The only reason he gained a reputation was because he was doing story-focused games at a time when the industry was being very, VERY insecure about itself, basically even saying that all narrative games until then were always bad. Quite disrespectful looking back to those awkward days (see also: Ninja Theory).
Oh shit I hadn't heard any of that. When did this get reported?
Apperently David Cage and his studio filed a lawsuit against the Media outlet that reported on that negative coverage:

https://www.pcgamer.com/david-cages-quantic-dream-sues-french-media-outlets-over-negative-coverage/

Don't know if that proves he's guilty or not.
Given this age's politically volatile climate, I don't think a lawsuit says it one way or the other. Just an accusation is enough to destroy a career with no chance of recovering, so I can understand being pro-active in a case like that. However I agree that all things being equal it looks guilty to sue a media outlet to shutdown a story. Then again media outlets can be corrupt too, so who knows...
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Silentpony said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Silentpony said:
Aiddon said:
Definitely doesn't help that Cage is now under investigation by Parisian authorities for creating a hostile work environment full of racism and sexual harassment. Would definitely make his commentaries in Become Human ring hollow.

At this point there's really not a whole lot more that can be said about Cage. He's a horrible writer who doesn't understand the inherent strengths of film or gaming so he can't tell a story worth a damn. The only reason he gained a reputation was because he was doing story-focused games at a time when the industry was being very, VERY insecure about itself, basically even saying that all narrative games until then were always bad. Quite disrespectful looking back to those awkward days (see also: Ninja Theory).
Oh shit I hadn't heard any of that. When did this get reported?
Apperently David Cage and his studio filed a lawsuit against the Media outlet that reported on that negative coverage:

https://www.pcgamer.com/david-cages-quantic-dream-sues-french-media-outlets-over-negative-coverage/

Don't know if that proves he's guilty or not.
Given this age's politically volatile climate, I don't think a lawsuit says it one way or the other. Just an accusation is enough to destroy a career with no chance of recovering, so I can understand being pro-active in a case like that. However I agree that all things being equal it looks guilty to sue a media outlet to shutdown a story. Then again media outlets can be corrupt too, so who knows...
And that's what makes it complex to me.

Either he is suing them to cover up that he is guilty, or someone or someones in the media outlet that reported on this is lying because this someone has a personal grudge against Cage.
 

Neurotic Void Melody

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Ohlie shit, that twist was literally what and who I guessed it would be, from hearing nought but "there is a twist in here btw." And expectedly meaningless. Though not sure how much pride there is to be felt about that, to be frank. Was secretly kinda hoping for something as stupid as "but all humans were the robots all along!"
 

thenewguy512739

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darkrage6 said:
Darth_Payn said:
Wait a minute: A.I., advanced robotics, and social inequality in Detroit? That lazy ************, Cage just stole that from Deus Ex: Human Revolution! I definitely didn't ask for this!
Not really no.
Uhm, yes. Ironically enough, HR itself ripped off RoboCop (a better and more relevant movie about Detroit). Both feature a Detroit law enforcement officer that gets nearly killed by a corporate conspiracy and comes back as a badass cyborg forced to contemplate his own humanity. I dare you to tell me that is just a coincidence.
Xsjadoblayde said:
Though not sure how much pride there is to be felt about that, to be frank. Was secretly kinda hoping for something as stupid as "but humans were the robots all along!"
Well, when you think about it, every story about robots and philosophy has that twist, just not literally.
 

ToastyMozart

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Cage really doesn't improve with time, it's more that with all the money and push the game has been getting from Sony he was under more creative restrictions. Really the vibe I've been getting from Detroit is that Quantic Dream is a dev studio mostly full of fairly competent staff that is unfortunately headed up by a derivative and egotistical moron who was tragically born with two smoked hams instead of fists.
The best example I've seen so far of this is the scene in the mansion between Markus and the old painter dude: The first 95% of it is a... well "subtle" isn't quite the right word, adequate scene between the two characters walking around the house, going through their morning routine discussing the world, playing the piano/chess, chatting about the differences between humans and androids, and offering a more affirmative answer to Detective Spooner in what I can assume is the rest of the development team trying their best to do a good job. This is swiftly interrupted by a loud prodigal son caricature storming into the room apropos of nothing and shouting themes at the camera as the Cage over-plot picks back up.

They should just prompt David to come up with a premise/overall structure for a detective game and then lock him in a room with some crayons while the rest of the team revise and expand on his notes and begin development. They'd finally get a good game out to market.

erttheking said:
Wait, did the abusive dad really fucking talk about how much he was going to enjoy beating his daughter? Is that an actual scene or Yahtzee being hyperbolic? Because if so, I seriously have to question how people can view that as a shocking look at domestic abuse.
It's more a coked-out ramble than a fully coherent plan, but yeah that was indeed an actual scene. It's what prompts Kara to break her restriction wall dealie because at that point following her orders to "not go anywhere" would violate Asimov's first or whatever.

The scene in question: https://youtu.be/BQ4Rx48HWoU?t=22m14s (As attended by a trio of much more entertaining characters than David could write.)
 

Erttheking

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ToastyMozart said:
It's more a coked-out ramble than a fully coherent plan, but yeah that was indeed an actual scene. It's what prompts Kara to break her restriction wall dealie because at that point following her orders to "not go anywhere" would violate Asimov's first or whatever.

The scene in question: https://youtu.be/BQ4Rx48HWoU?t=22m14s (As attended by a trio of much more entertaining characters than David could write.)
*Watches scene* Jesus fucking Christ. Yup, that's some pretty shallow writing right there. Some people say this game had a serious look at domestic abuse *shakes head* why I will never know.

Burnouts3s3 said:
I enjoyed this interactive movie from David Cage, but Yahtzee is absolutely correct in his assessment in Cage's writing. It's still really amateur and doesn't work all the way through. I felt that the Deviant Hunter, Connor and Clancy Brown's character, Hank, had the best story in the game and their dynamic worked like gangbusters. But Markus' story, where he's this Android Messiah who's going to be a Civil Rights leader, falls completely flat.

One of the things I liked was the 'fail states are not game overs' mechanic Cage brought over from Heavy Rain. So if a certain character dies, the game goes on without them which I thought was pretty smart.

erttheking said:
what, did the asshole buy a fucking robot daughter and then a robot maid? For an asshole who lives in a dilapidated house, he sure has a lot of money to throw around. And why the shit would he do that?
Todd, the abusive asshole, is a drug dealer who's wife left him and took his biological daughter. Todd bought the robot child to 'prove' that he can be a good parent only to show he can't an even to a robot he's still an abusive asshole. Again, it doesn't really 'work' as a narrative but it's sort of interesting.


Kara and Alice can get into a scenario which they are taken to the Recycling center(It's basically a concentration camp for robots. Yes, really). Kara can have a number of options but Alice will also be in danger as well. The purpose is to have Alice also be in danger. If she was human, she wouldn't be in the same situation as Kara and be safe.

Again, Yahtzee is right in that the story was much stronger when the player thought Alice was human but then we wouldn't have that ending.

Like I said, I enjoyed the game but it's flawed as all hell.
...That's pretty dumb writing there Cage, not gonna lie. Just when I think Jim Sterling is being a little unfair with the "emotions" thing, Cage goes and proves him right.

Apothecary2 said:
erttheking said:
Wait, did the abusive dad really fucking talk about how much he was going to enjoy beating his daughter? Is that an actual scene or Yahtzee being hyperbolic? Because if so, I seriously have to question how people can view that as a shocking look at domestic abuse.

Also

what, did the asshole buy a fucking robot daughter and then a robot maid? For an asshole who lives in a dilapidated house, he sure has a lot of money to throw around. And why the shit would he do that?

So I'll just throw something out there, anyone who's interested in a robot focused game where inequality and lost jobs caused by automation is actually a theme (granted not the only theme) play Subsurface Circular. It's by the guy who made Thomas Was Alone, and while it's a short game that's mainly about a robot cop having talks on the subway, it's a thousand times more interesting than anything David Cage ever made.

Plus it's only six bucks.
It is later shown that Kara only costs $800. Under 2038 inflation. The androids became very cheap. The question of why he would is also answered at the end of the game if you make the correct choices.
Judging by how the game apparently doesn't address the mass unemployment the androids cause, I'm guessing the low price tag is used less to world build a reality where automation has become stupidly cheap and the implications of it and more to create a world where a crack dealer in a run down house could afford a robot maid.
 

ToastyMozart

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erttheking said:
Judging by how the game apparently doesn't address the mass unemployment the androids cause, I'm guessing the low price tag is used less to world build a reality where automation has become stupidly cheap and the implications of it and more to create a world where a crack dealer in a run down house could afford a robot maid.
It's either that or David just not knowing how the hell an economy works: On the topic of mass-unemployment an early in-game news report mentions the US unemployment rate reaching 38%, which is remarkably higher than the peak of the Great Depression (25%) and well over the threshold where violent revolution usually happens.
"It's ze future, so ze robots are cheap" and all, despite American androids being an entirely monopolized market.
 

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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ToastyMozart said:
erttheking said:
Judging by how the game apparently doesn't address the mass unemployment the androids cause, I'm guessing the low price tag is used less to world build a reality where automation has become stupidly cheap and the implications of it and more to create a world where a crack dealer in a run down house could afford a robot maid.
It's either that or David just not knowing how the hell an economy works: On the topic of mass-unemployment an early in-game news report mentions the US unemployment rate reaching 38%, which is remarkably higher than the peak of the Great Depression (25%) and well over the threshold where violent revolution usually happens.
"It's ze future, so ze robots are cheap" and all, despite American androids being an entirely monopolized market.
See I would have thought something like that, for market penetration, would be sold similar to the way smartphones are now. Lets bump up the official price from $899 to $1,200 but also assume that's per year, over say, 15 years. So $120 a month, over fifteen years is $21,600. Probably not a realistic price but one more readily acceptable. So sure, you're not gonna get 20 customers dropping nearly 22 grand all at once. What you might get is several million customers dropping you a regular $120 every month.

Not believable, but probably acceptable for a work of fiction.


OT: I must admit I'm rather tempted to get this game; mainly because I liked Heavy Rain - maddening and flawed that it is - and speculative fiction regarding robots, A.I. and machines becoming sapient and such is very much my jam. I also like in Kara's case the breaking of her standard programming is out of a desire to save someone rather than kill them.

On the other hand, its doesn't seem like there's much else to recommend it. Maybe when its like $15 - which judging by the walloping its getting probably won't be as long as most.
 

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Markus' cliche revolution story is easily the worst part of it. Kara's and Connor's were fine. Kamski's mystery genius character is annoying and cryptic as hell, and thus the ideas behind androids wanting to be free never get much substance to support them. They just want it, ok, and it's a feature, not a bug.
 

darkrage6

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Aiddon said:
Definitely doesn't help that Cage is now under investigation by Parisian authorities for creating a hostile work environment full of racism and sexual harassment. Would definitely make his commentaries in Become Human ring hollow.

At this point there's really not a whole lot more that can be said about Cage. He's a horrible writer who doesn't understand the inherent strengths of film or gaming so he can't tell a story worth a damn. The only reason he gained a reputation was because he was doing story-focused games at a time when the industry was being very, VERY insecure about itself, basically even saying that all narrative games until then were always bad. Quite disrespectful looking back to those awkward days (see also: Ninja Theory).
Samtemdo8 said:
Silentpony said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Silentpony said:
Aiddon said:
Definitely doesn't help that Cage is now under investigation by Parisian authorities for creating a hostile work environment full of racism and sexual harassment. Would definitely make his commentaries in Become Human ring hollow.

At this point there's really not a whole lot more that can be said about Cage. He's a horrible writer who doesn't understand the inherent strengths of film or gaming so he can't tell a story worth a damn. The only reason he gained a reputation was because he was doing story-focused games at a time when the industry was being very, VERY insecure about itself, basically even saying that all narrative games until then were always bad. Quite disrespectful looking back to those awkward days (see also: Ninja Theory).
Oh shit I hadn't heard any of that. When did this get reported?
Apperently David Cage and his studio filed a lawsuit against the Media outlet that reported on that negative coverage:

https://www.pcgamer.com/david-cages-quantic-dream-sues-french-media-outlets-over-negative-coverage/

Don't know if that proves he's guilty or not.
Given this age's politically volatile climate, I don't think a lawsuit says it one way or the other. Just an accusation is enough to destroy a career with no chance of recovering, so I can understand being pro-active in a case like that. However I agree that all things being equal it looks guilty to sue a media outlet to shutdown a story. Then again media outlets can be corrupt too, so who knows...
And that's what makes it complex to me.

Either he is suing them to cover up that he is guilty, or someone or someones in the media outlet that reported on this is lying because this someone has a personal grudge against Cage.
Jim Sterling actually talked to some employees at Quantic Dream and they said the accusations against Cage were overblown and that the person who accused them of wrongdoing was himself fired for stealing company documents.
 

darkrage6

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erttheking said:
ToastyMozart said:
It's more a coked-out ramble than a fully coherent plan, but yeah that was indeed an actual scene. It's what prompts Kara to break her restriction wall dealie because at that point following her orders to "not go anywhere" would violate Asimov's first or whatever.

The scene in question: https://youtu.be/BQ4Rx48HWoU?t=22m14s (As attended by a trio of much more entertaining characters than David could write.)
*Watches scene* Jesus fucking Christ. Yup, that's some pretty shallow writing right there. Some people say this game had a serious look at domestic abuse *shakes head* why I will never know.

Burnouts3s3 said:
I enjoyed this interactive movie from David Cage, but Yahtzee is absolutely correct in his assessment in Cage's writing. It's still really amateur and doesn't work all the way through. I felt that the Deviant Hunter, Connor and Clancy Brown's character, Hank, had the best story in the game and their dynamic worked like gangbusters. But Markus' story, where he's this Android Messiah who's going to be a Civil Rights leader, falls completely flat.

One of the things I liked was the 'fail states are not game overs' mechanic Cage brought over from Heavy Rain. So if a certain character dies, the game goes on without them which I thought was pretty smart.

erttheking said:
what, did the asshole buy a fucking robot daughter and then a robot maid? For an asshole who lives in a dilapidated house, he sure has a lot of money to throw around. And why the shit would he do that?
Todd, the abusive asshole, is a drug dealer who's wife left him and took his biological daughter. Todd bought the robot child to 'prove' that he can be a good parent only to show he can't an even to a robot he's still an abusive asshole. Again, it doesn't really 'work' as a narrative but it's sort of interesting.


Kara and Alice can get into a scenario which they are taken to the Recycling center(It's basically a concentration camp for robots. Yes, really). Kara can have a number of options but Alice will also be in danger as well. The purpose is to have Alice also be in danger. If she was human, she wouldn't be in the same situation as Kara and be safe.

Again, Yahtzee is right in that the story was much stronger when the player thought Alice was human but then we wouldn't have that ending.

Like I said, I enjoyed the game but it's flawed as all hell.
...That's pretty dumb writing there Cage, not gonna lie. Just when I think Jim Sterling is being a little unfair with the "emotions" thing, Cage goes and proves him right.

Apothecary2 said:
erttheking said:
Wait, did the abusive dad really fucking talk about how much he was going to enjoy beating his daughter? Is that an actual scene or Yahtzee being hyperbolic? Because if so, I seriously have to question how people can view that as a shocking look at domestic abuse.

Also

what, did the asshole buy a fucking robot daughter and then a robot maid? For an asshole who lives in a dilapidated house, he sure has a lot of money to throw around. And why the shit would he do that?

So I'll just throw something out there, anyone who's interested in a robot focused game where inequality and lost jobs caused by automation is actually a theme (granted not the only theme) play Subsurface Circular. It's by the guy who made Thomas Was Alone, and while it's a short game that's mainly about a robot cop having talks on the subway, it's a thousand times more interesting than anything David Cage ever made.

Plus it's only six bucks.
It is later shown that Kara only costs $800. Under 2038 inflation. The androids became very cheap. The question of why he would is also answered at the end of the game if you make the correct choices.
Judging by how the game apparently doesn't address the mass unemployment the androids cause, I'm guessing the low price tag is used less to world build a reality where automation has become stupidly cheap and the implications of it and more to create a world where a crack dealer in a run down house could afford a robot maid.
I thought it was well written myself. I've seen real life footage of abuse that looked quite similar.
 

darkrage6

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erttheking said:
ToastyMozart said:
It's more a coked-out ramble than a fully coherent plan, but yeah that was indeed an actual scene. It's what prompts Kara to break her restriction wall dealie because at that point following her orders to "not go anywhere" would violate Asimov's first or whatever.

The scene in question: https://youtu.be/BQ4Rx48HWoU?t=22m14s (As attended by a trio of much more entertaining characters than David could write.)
*Watches scene* Jesus fucking Christ. Yup, that's some pretty shallow writing right there. Some people say this game had a serious look at domestic abuse *shakes head* why I will never know.

Burnouts3s3 said:
I enjoyed this interactive movie from David Cage, but Yahtzee is absolutely correct in his assessment in Cage's writing. It's still really amateur and doesn't work all the way through. I felt that the Deviant Hunter, Connor and Clancy Brown's character, Hank, had the best story in the game and their dynamic worked like gangbusters. But Markus' story, where he's this Android Messiah who's going to be a Civil Rights leader, falls completely flat.

One of the things I liked was the 'fail states are not game overs' mechanic Cage brought over from Heavy Rain. So if a certain character dies, the game goes on without them which I thought was pretty smart.

erttheking said:
what, did the asshole buy a fucking robot daughter and then a robot maid? For an asshole who lives in a dilapidated house, he sure has a lot of money to throw around. And why the shit would he do that?
Todd, the abusive asshole, is a drug dealer who's wife left him and took his biological daughter. Todd bought the robot child to 'prove' that he can be a good parent only to show he can't an even to a robot he's still an abusive asshole. Again, it doesn't really 'work' as a narrative but it's sort of interesting.


Kara and Alice can get into a scenario which they are taken to the Recycling center(It's basically a concentration camp for robots. Yes, really). Kara can have a number of options but Alice will also be in danger as well. The purpose is to have Alice also be in danger. If she was human, she wouldn't be in the same situation as Kara and be safe.

Again, Yahtzee is right in that the story was much stronger when the player thought Alice was human but then we wouldn't have that ending.

Like I said, I enjoyed the game but it's flawed as all hell.
...That's pretty dumb writing there Cage, not gonna lie. Just when I think Jim Sterling is being a little unfair with the "emotions" thing, Cage goes and proves him right.

Apothecary2 said:
erttheking said:
Wait, did the abusive dad really fucking talk about how much he was going to enjoy beating his daughter? Is that an actual scene or Yahtzee being hyperbolic? Because if so, I seriously have to question how people can view that as a shocking look at domestic abuse.

Also

what, did the asshole buy a fucking robot daughter and then a robot maid? For an asshole who lives in a dilapidated house, he sure has a lot of money to throw around. And why the shit would he do that?

So I'll just throw something out there, anyone who's interested in a robot focused game where inequality and lost jobs caused by automation is actually a theme (granted not the only theme) play Subsurface Circular. It's by the guy who made Thomas Was Alone, and while it's a short game that's mainly about a robot cop having talks on the subway, it's a thousand times more interesting than anything David Cage ever made.

Plus it's only six bucks.
It is later shown that Kara only costs $800. Under 2038 inflation. The androids became very cheap. The question of why he would is also answered at the end of the game if you make the correct choices.
Judging by how the game apparently doesn't address the mass unemployment the androids cause, I'm guessing the low price tag is used less to world build a reality where automation has become stupidly cheap and the implications of it and more to create a world where a crack dealer in a run down house could afford a robot maid.
I thought it was well written myself. I've seen real life footage of abuse that looked quite similar.
Aiddon said:
Definitely doesn't help that Cage is now under investigation by Parisian authorities for creating a hostile work environment full of racism and sexual harassment. Would definitely make his commentaries in Become Human ring hollow.

At this point there's really not a whole lot more that can be said about Cage. He's a horrible writer who doesn't understand the inherent strengths of film or gaming so he can't tell a story worth a damn. The only reason he gained a reputation was because he was doing story-focused games at a time when the industry was being very, VERY insecure about itself, basically even saying that all narrative games until then were always bad. Quite disrespectful looking back to those awkward days (see also: Ninja Theory).
Not really, Jim Sterling talked to some employees who said the allegations were mostly nonsense.
 

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darkrage6 said:
It would be better for us all, if you learned to post properly. Don't multipost for no reason other than impatience, and do try to quote only the relevant parts of other people's comments or "snip" them like I'm doing here.
 

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darkrage6 said:
Funny you mention Jim Sterling, he wrote an article on how it's an utter farce. And he grew up in an abusive home.

http://www.thejimquisition.com/detroits-domestic-abuse-trailer-is-a-hackneyed-farce/
 

Buccura

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Once again Yahtzee scoffs are a game that tries to say something about racism, seeming to ignore the fact that it is still a huge problem in our soceity.
 

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Buccura said:
Once again Yahtzee scoffs are a game that tries to say something about racism, seeming to ignore the fact that it is still a huge problem in our soceity.
Good intentions don't necessarily make for good storytelling.
 

Buccura

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Johnny Novgorod said:
Buccura said:
Once again Yahtzee scoffs are a game that tries to say something about racism, seeming to ignore the fact that it is still a huge problem in our soceity.
Good intentions don't necessarily make for good storytelling.
I'm not trying to say the story is good. It's a David Cage game, after all.
 

CyanCat47_v1legacy

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While i agree with the criticisms to the writing, i never really understood the 'Interactive movies' criticism for any of his games except Beyond which is extremely linear and railroady. However Farenheit, Heavy Rain and Detroit largely follow an Adventure game structure, just with flashier aesthetics
 

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Buccura said:
Once again Yahtzee scoffs are a game that tries to say something about racism, seeming to ignore the fact that it is still a huge problem in our soceity.
Tries is the big word here, right? Does anyone know what the game says about racism? I don't. Trying to say something while failing to say anything surely is something to scoff at.
 

Aiddon_v1legacy

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erttheking said:
darkrage6 said:
Funny you mention Jim Sterling, he wrote an article on how it's an utter farce. And he grew up in an abusive home.

http://www.thejimquisition.com/detroits-domestic-abuse-trailer-is-a-hackneyed-farce/
Yeah, Cage really doesn't get how a domestic abuse situation works. Or human interaction in general. I laughed my ass off when he claimed people should judge him by his work when those abuse allegations came out. Okay, Davey, judging by your work you're a sexist, racist manchild who shouldn't be allowed near any heavy machinery. At the end of the day the man is a joke
 

Buccura

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McElroy said:
Buccura said:
Once again Yahtzee scoffs are a game that tries to say something about racism, seeming to ignore the fact that it is still a huge problem in our soceity.
Tries is the big word here, right? Does anyone know what the game says about racism? I don't. Trying to say something while failing to say anything surely is something to scoff at.
It's not that he scoffed at how it failed to say something about racism, again I hardly expect David Cage to give something insightful. It's that he scoffed at the very idea of it, just like how he scoffed at the idea of Deus Ex Mankind Divided having a racism analogue before even going into whether or not it did it well.
 

Neurotic Void Melody

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Buccura said:
It's not that he scoffed at how it failed to say something about racism, again I hardly expect David Cage to give something insightful. It's that he scoffed at the very idea of it, just like how he scoffed at the idea of Deus Ex Mankind Divided having a racism analogue before even going into whether or not it did it well.
They're both poor attempts in any way you look at it, though Detroit far more hackneyed and shallow. They're both also cowardly with the theme as they refuse to ever acknowledge real-life racism and instead prefer to use a fantasised version where much more whities can be visibly empathised with, for it is nought but a window-dressing as a hope that their own story looks deeper. What questions were ever asked or explored? Where, who and how is this type of racism accepted and encouraged by parts of humanity? What various problems and psychologies are perpetuating this? What else other than "hey...racism bad, amirite?" Except with Deus Ex it still makes far more sense here.

I eagerly await the day there is more thought and respect put into "racism analogy" for this medium, but the examples you worked from are not flattering for this.
 

Dalisclock

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Canadamus Prime said:
You really do get the impression that David Cage would much rather be making films.

EDIT: Besides hasn't the concept of humanity, AI, and androids been explored much better in other mediums? Things like Blade Runner, Bicentennial Man, AI: Artificial Intelligence, Star Trek: The Next Generation...
It's arguably been explored better in other Video Games. Off the top of my head:

-Deus Ex(the first one particularly but HR wasn't terrible either).
-Nier: Automata
-Final Fantasy IX

I'm sure there a ton more that I'm spacing at the moment.
 

Canadamus Prime

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Dalisclock said:
Canadamus Prime said:
You really do get the impression that David Cage would much rather be making films.

EDIT: Besides hasn't the concept of humanity, AI, and androids been explored much better in other mediums? Things like Blade Runner, Bicentennial Man, AI: Artificial Intelligence, Star Trek: The Next Generation...
It's arguably been explored better in other Video Games. Off the top of my head:

-Deus Ex(the first one particularly but HR wasn't terrible either).
-Nier: Automata
-Final Fantasy IX

I'm sure there a ton more that I'm spacing at the moment.
Wasn't it also a subplot in Fallout 4? I haven't played it, but I seem to recall picking that up somewhere.
 

Dalisclock

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Canadamus Prime said:
Dalisclock said:
Canadamus Prime said:
You really do get the impression that David Cage would much rather be making films.

EDIT: Besides hasn't the concept of humanity, AI, and androids been explored much better in other mediums? Things like Blade Runner, Bicentennial Man, AI: Artificial Intelligence, Star Trek: The Next Generation...
It's arguably been explored better in other Video Games. Off the top of my head:

-Deus Ex(the first one particularly but HR wasn't terrible either).
-Nier: Automata
-Final Fantasy IX

I'm sure there a ton more that I'm spacing at the moment.
Wasn't it also a subplot in Fallout 4? I haven't played it, but I seem to recall picking that up somewhere.
I've heard it is but I haven't played it yet either. Waiting for the complete/GOTW edition to drop to like $30 before buying it, because I'm tired of buying the base Bethesda game and then having to rebuy it again with all the expansions 3-4 years later. I decided "Fuck it, when the entire game is released, I'll buy it and judge it from there".

So I'm behind on RPG's right now that I haven't really noticed the wait either.
 

Canadamus Prime

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Dalisclock said:
Canadamus Prime said:
Dalisclock said:
Canadamus Prime said:
You really do get the impression that David Cage would much rather be making films.

EDIT: Besides hasn't the concept of humanity, AI, and androids been explored much better in other mediums? Things like Blade Runner, Bicentennial Man, AI: Artificial Intelligence, Star Trek: The Next Generation...
It's arguably been explored better in other Video Games. Off the top of my head:

-Deus Ex(the first one particularly but HR wasn't terrible either).
-Nier: Automata
-Final Fantasy IX

I'm sure there a ton more that I'm spacing at the moment.
Wasn't it also a subplot in Fallout 4? I haven't played it, but I seem to recall picking that up somewhere.
I've heard it is but I haven't played it yet either. Waiting for the complete/GOTW edition to drop to like $30 before buying it, because I'm tired of buying the base Bethesda game and then having to rebuy it again with all the expansions 3-4 years later. I decided "Fuck it, when the entire game is released, I'll buy it and judge it from there".

So I'm behind on RPG's right now that I haven't really noticed the wait either.
I have no interest in it since I found out that the over-simplified the dialogue system and thus removed most of the role-playing.
Apparently there's a mod that provides a more in-depth dialogue system, but I don't care enough.