Zero Punctuation: Eve Online
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
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I tried the 14 day trial as did Yahtzee and I was disappointed...everything he just said...I agree with...
I joined just to reply to this weeks review.
I haven't laughed so hard in a while, I tell you that much. So thumbs up on that!
Now, I do however think Yahtzee didn't get a few things right... First off, player corps are very diverse. Some are, like he said, "JOOOINZ UZ NOWS!", while others are made up of decent and fun loving people. I think it's like this in any MMO really. But if one was to make some statistics, then I'm sure that EVE has a lot less of the idiot-crowd than, say, WoW. Also, I don't really understand the complaint about large number of skills and their naming; at the start you just pick basic guns, and those oddities come MUCH later... at which point you know what you need rather than pick them blind. Also, the question of how friendly the UI is is a matter of debate; considering the options that EVE provides, I'd say it's really good.
I do however have to agree about the NPC combat and missions; they suck. They're repetitive and pure "grind". PvP combat is a bit more interesting due to the large number of things that can go wrong or right...
Finally, a word about the skills system: EVE has a terrible tendency to be extremely slow at the start, despite being able to complete the early skills in a matter of minutes. That's because you still need SOME ship setup (and, above all, a decent ship), and that takes some diversity. But even with the 14-day trial I managed to get a cruiser and do some nice blasting here and there... but I won't deny: you need SOME in-game knowledge of how things work to get that done, and if you're just jumping right in chances are you won't know what the hell you're doing.
I somehow suspect that Yahtzee didn't really socialize at all in EVE... not even with the nice people from the newbie help channels. If he did, I'm sure he'd get a lot more information and he'd be able to get more done within those 14 days. Alas, this game CANNOT be played 'alone'. Well, I take that back; it can, but then it's really, REALLY boring.
Still, with all said and done, this game is nevertheless a lot better than the X series in all aspects but the combat... and THAT game series always got some oddly high scores everywhere.
I haven't laughed so hard in a while, I tell you that much. So thumbs up on that!
Now, I do however think Yahtzee didn't get a few things right... First off, player corps are very diverse. Some are, like he said, "JOOOINZ UZ NOWS!", while others are made up of decent and fun loving people. I think it's like this in any MMO really. But if one was to make some statistics, then I'm sure that EVE has a lot less of the idiot-crowd than, say, WoW. Also, I don't really understand the complaint about large number of skills and their naming; at the start you just pick basic guns, and those oddities come MUCH later... at which point you know what you need rather than pick them blind. Also, the question of how friendly the UI is is a matter of debate; considering the options that EVE provides, I'd say it's really good.
I do however have to agree about the NPC combat and missions; they suck. They're repetitive and pure "grind". PvP combat is a bit more interesting due to the large number of things that can go wrong or right...
Finally, a word about the skills system: EVE has a terrible tendency to be extremely slow at the start, despite being able to complete the early skills in a matter of minutes. That's because you still need SOME ship setup (and, above all, a decent ship), and that takes some diversity. But even with the 14-day trial I managed to get a cruiser and do some nice blasting here and there... but I won't deny: you need SOME in-game knowledge of how things work to get that done, and if you're just jumping right in chances are you won't know what the hell you're doing.
I somehow suspect that Yahtzee didn't really socialize at all in EVE... not even with the nice people from the newbie help channels. If he did, I'm sure he'd get a lot more information and he'd be able to get more done within those 14 days. Alas, this game CANNOT be played 'alone'. Well, I take that back; it can, but then it's really, REALLY boring.
Still, with all said and done, this game is nevertheless a lot better than the X series in all aspects but the combat... and THAT game series always got some oddly high scores everywhere.
I play Eve Online, for starters.
Yahtzee made a number of very accurate statements concerning the game. Some subtler details of the game he missed out on.
Combat in Eve is actually considerably more complicated than he made it out to be, but the mechanics behind it are somewhat obtuse and a new player on a 14 day trial isn't going to need to understand these mechanics.
Something about Eve that is unlike any other MMO is that a relatively new character could take out a veteran of a year or more, depending on the situation. This makes it a great PVP game.
Further, a small ship, even the smallest, can have a very significant impact on the outcome of a battle, and in swarms can potentially take out the biggest baddest ships in the game. The goons from Something Awful (Who are CRAZY about Eve, BTW) took out a Titan (biggest ship in the game) with swarms of frigates (smallest!) and minimal support from a few larger ships.
Eve is probably one of THE most complicated games I've ever played in my life, and definitely the most complex MMO. Considering how console-centric Yahtzee seems to be (can't blame him, thats where the industry is going it seems) I'm not only surprised he reviewed it but that he even made as many astute observations as he did.
As for it being boring though, I'm sure yahtzee didn't fly into the "unprotected" space seeking blood. He has no excuse either, because a 2 day old newbie can do this and still get kills if he picks his targets right. Ever wanna be a space pirate? Talk about adrenaline! YARRR. See, Eve doesn't hand you fun on a silver platter per se, but if you give it a chance you'll find your niche and maybe it'll just hit the spot. So perhaps I'd venture to say that Yahtzee kinda missed the mark on this one. Can't blame him... I found EVE difficult to just wrap my mind around, but reviewing it? Damn.
Yahtzee made a number of very accurate statements concerning the game. Some subtler details of the game he missed out on.
Combat in Eve is actually considerably more complicated than he made it out to be, but the mechanics behind it are somewhat obtuse and a new player on a 14 day trial isn't going to need to understand these mechanics.
Something about Eve that is unlike any other MMO is that a relatively new character could take out a veteran of a year or more, depending on the situation. This makes it a great PVP game.
Further, a small ship, even the smallest, can have a very significant impact on the outcome of a battle, and in swarms can potentially take out the biggest baddest ships in the game. The goons from Something Awful (Who are CRAZY about Eve, BTW) took out a Titan (biggest ship in the game) with swarms of frigates (smallest!) and minimal support from a few larger ships.
Eve is probably one of THE most complicated games I've ever played in my life, and definitely the most complex MMO. Considering how console-centric Yahtzee seems to be (can't blame him, thats where the industry is going it seems) I'm not only surprised he reviewed it but that he even made as many astute observations as he did.
As for it being boring though, I'm sure yahtzee didn't fly into the "unprotected" space seeking blood. He has no excuse either, because a 2 day old newbie can do this and still get kills if he picks his targets right. Ever wanna be a space pirate? Talk about adrenaline! YARRR. See, Eve doesn't hand you fun on a silver platter per se, but if you give it a chance you'll find your niche and maybe it'll just hit the spot. So perhaps I'd venture to say that Yahtzee kinda missed the mark on this one. Can't blame him... I found EVE difficult to just wrap my mind around, but reviewing it? Damn.
Its not really fair to say it tries to be WoW. Why? Because it is actually OLDER than WoW; the game was released in 2003.
It is different than WoW; saying it is like WoW is a bit misleading. It is an MMO, which means that it is fundamentally similar to all other MMOs on some level, but it isn't particularly like WoW any more so than, say, it is like Homeworld.
The reality is that it differs significantly. The largest difference is the fact that in Eve, you spend approximately 95% of the time in the game AFK.
He did in fact hit the nail on the head when he said it is a game that doesn't want to be played because, let's face it, it isn't. Its a game in which time directly equates to experience, and if you don't want to, you don't have to really do anything. Its actually a pretty brilliant plan as you can play it very casually and level up.
The issue is that while this system is brilliant, both from an economics standpoint and the standpoint of someone who doesn't want to grind, the game still INVOLVES grinding via getting money. On the other hand, you can simply AFK while mining and only check up on yourself every ten minutes or so, but it still doesn't do away with the annoying grinding.
The real problem, however, is the fact that there is nowhere to go - the game is ENTIRELY player driven. Unless you're fighting with other players, or going out with other players, the game is completely without value as the game in and of itself has little to offer you. If you aren't a part of a player corporation you literally can't have fun playing the game for more than a week or so because you've literally done everything worth doing the game directly offers you.
Yah yah another Eve vet signing in 07
a. Eve is not a single player game.
b. Corp is just a name for a guild
c. In failing to actually play in multi-player mode he missed out on so much more to take the p*** out of. The fact that 80% of people play women in a rpg with about 95% men for a start and the high levels of homoerotic conversations that spring up because of this (I'm looking at you ball shaving conversations in irc), also he failed to see our outstanding culture of greafing and he didn't get blown up by a pirate demanding a ransom only to be mocked by his own corp mates.
d. Not every eve player is a virgin, apart from goonswarm, they all are, especially HK.
a. Eve is not a single player game.
b. Corp is just a name for a guild
c. In failing to actually play in multi-player mode he missed out on so much more to take the p*** out of. The fact that 80% of people play women in a rpg with about 95% men for a start and the high levels of homoerotic conversations that spring up because of this (I'm looking at you ball shaving conversations in irc), also he failed to see our outstanding culture of greafing and he didn't get blown up by a pirate demanding a ransom only to be mocked by his own corp mates.
d. Not every eve player is a virgin, apart from goonswarm, they all are, especially HK.
I tried the fourteen day trial and I felt exactly the same.
Jesus christ, if this is what colonozing space is going to be like then forget that nonsense.
Jesus christ, if this is what colonozing space is going to be like then forget that nonsense.
Yup, this is Yahtzee's most accurate review yet. Everything he says is true, especially the bits about the interface unfriendliness and the endless series of 'go here and shoot things' missions. Good work.
<- 3 years eve vet.
I made a bloody forum account for this post, so you better read it Yahtzee!!!
Agree with what you said about the game, if it'd just have the single player stuff there I'd have quit a long time ago; here's tons of other MMORPG's that do that kindof stuff better.
But I'm still playing it for the multiplayer. If you had joined say, eve university (as somebody else proposed I believe) for this you could've perhaps seen a few things that does make eve different. Since you'll never play the game again, such advice is pretty pointless, but I wanted to defend/justify the 12985612 hours I put into this game the last 3 years in some way.
I made a bloody forum account for this post, so you better read it Yahtzee!!!
Agree with what you said about the game, if it'd just have the single player stuff there I'd have quit a long time ago; here's tons of other MMORPG's that do that kindof stuff better.
But I'm still playing it for the multiplayer. If you had joined say, eve university (as somebody else proposed I believe) for this you could've perhaps seen a few things that does make eve different. Since you'll never play the game again, such advice is pretty pointless, but I wanted to defend/justify the 12985612 hours I put into this game the last 3 years in some way.
Awesome, And btw you werent referring to me in that vid? cuz i did request that you do one on eve because of its "self grind" aspect. If so then i never said eve was different from others just that it was a self grinder. Otherwise too true review, but you woulda had more fun in a corp. cuz A. You fight bigger stuff with corps B. You dont gota crawl your way up the money tree in most corps they just pay you and of course C. Both your skill lvl and social skill bars will go up. But i still agree, eve alone is the most boring thing EVER.. i dont think i could play eve if i didnt have a friend and a corp.
Y'know, I think a lot of people forget that Yahtzee approaches a game from a particular angle, with a particular goal in mind: Enjoyable, thoughtful entertainment that you can get into quickly, without depending on a lot of other people to make the whole thing fun.
The thing about EVE Online is that you can't have the first half of that without the second. EVE is, at its deepest roots, what Star Trek would look like if reimagined by Mao Tse Tung and Adam Smith, with footnotes written by David "Son of Sam" Berkowitz. Any single particular EVE player is nothing more than a tiny cog in the grand financial/military machine; the biggest difference you can make is to choose which PART of the machine to lend your... err, cognosity to, which means becoming a part of a player-run corporation. Otherwise all you're really doing is treading water in a static environment.
And yes, PvP is a major part of the game, since so much of the game world is defined and held by the players themselves. The key rule to remember is "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose". No, you don't lose EVERYTHING if you're "killed" in EVE, but you do lose the ship, whatever weapons, modules and cargo was aboard it, and (if you're killed yourself) your implants and whatever skills your clone (think "backup version of you") isn't able to keep. Warfare in EVE is sort of a four-facet "rock paper scissors" game played in three dimensions, where things like angle of approach and speed really do matter.
Playing EVE Online in a solo fashion as a member of the NPC corporations is like playing a game of pen-and-paper Dungeons & Dragons by yourself- all you're left with is a bunch of numbers that hold no meaning and no real sense of purpose.
That said, Yahtzee does more or less speak the truth about the game in his review. It's a daunting game to get into, even though they've recently revamped the tutorial missions; it's designed to get you into the habit of asking for help, and eventually forming social connections. You can more or less go wherever you want, and do whatever you want, but the full consequences of everything you do fall on your head like a ton of bricks, and there's precious little warning that what you're doing is patently stupid and will end up with you sucking vacuum. Playing it solo is both boring and aggravating (unless you're like me and enjoy spending time flying off to look at stars or weird planets close-up) and takes a very long time to give you any sense of accomplishment.
I might add that two of the additions planned for the game- ambulation (actually getting out of your ship and walking around, preferably aboard a station, not in the harsh vacuum of deep space) and atmospheric flight (flying INTO a planet rather than just around one)- are promising to break things up a bit. I, myself, would love to be able to fly into the upper atmosphere of some gas giant and dogfight around the edges of an electrical storm twice the size of Earth.
All this from a guy who has had an EVE account for 15 months and still belongs to the beginning NPC corporation. What can I say, I like building things and selling them. Granted, I could get the same experience (and actual spending money) from taking up macrame, but it's hard to imagine my little decorative owl dust covers flying through the cosmos and blowing up some poor schlub in a dinky mining craft.
The thing about EVE Online is that you can't have the first half of that without the second. EVE is, at its deepest roots, what Star Trek would look like if reimagined by Mao Tse Tung and Adam Smith, with footnotes written by David "Son of Sam" Berkowitz. Any single particular EVE player is nothing more than a tiny cog in the grand financial/military machine; the biggest difference you can make is to choose which PART of the machine to lend your... err, cognosity to, which means becoming a part of a player-run corporation. Otherwise all you're really doing is treading water in a static environment.
And yes, PvP is a major part of the game, since so much of the game world is defined and held by the players themselves. The key rule to remember is "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose". No, you don't lose EVERYTHING if you're "killed" in EVE, but you do lose the ship, whatever weapons, modules and cargo was aboard it, and (if you're killed yourself) your implants and whatever skills your clone (think "backup version of you") isn't able to keep. Warfare in EVE is sort of a four-facet "rock paper scissors" game played in three dimensions, where things like angle of approach and speed really do matter.
Playing EVE Online in a solo fashion as a member of the NPC corporations is like playing a game of pen-and-paper Dungeons & Dragons by yourself- all you're left with is a bunch of numbers that hold no meaning and no real sense of purpose.
That said, Yahtzee does more or less speak the truth about the game in his review. It's a daunting game to get into, even though they've recently revamped the tutorial missions; it's designed to get you into the habit of asking for help, and eventually forming social connections. You can more or less go wherever you want, and do whatever you want, but the full consequences of everything you do fall on your head like a ton of bricks, and there's precious little warning that what you're doing is patently stupid and will end up with you sucking vacuum. Playing it solo is both boring and aggravating (unless you're like me and enjoy spending time flying off to look at stars or weird planets close-up) and takes a very long time to give you any sense of accomplishment.
I might add that two of the additions planned for the game- ambulation (actually getting out of your ship and walking around, preferably aboard a station, not in the harsh vacuum of deep space) and atmospheric flight (flying INTO a planet rather than just around one)- are promising to break things up a bit. I, myself, would love to be able to fly into the upper atmosphere of some gas giant and dogfight around the edges of an electrical storm twice the size of Earth.
All this from a guy who has had an EVE account for 15 months and still belongs to the beginning NPC corporation. What can I say, I like building things and selling them. Granted, I could get the same experience (and actual spending money) from taking up macrame, but it's hard to imagine my little decorative owl dust covers flying through the cosmos and blowing up some poor schlub in a dinky mining craft.
Dear Mr. Crosshaw,
Well, I'm glad you stepped up to my challenge, even if you only stepped up to it the same way a bored and overworked whore would to a client whose sex she has no intention of enjoying.
Here's the deal: you missed everything (where's the itallics for emphasis - dammit) about Eve that sets it apart in the MMO genre.
I wish I hadn't played it past the 14day free trial and experienced the things I have, but it's done now. I'm both engrossed and addicted. Mostly to the PVP, which is far more than you've inadequately described. The truth is that nobody less than a month old in the game is ready for even the most basic pvp. Even against another nubbin the fighting would be a vicious combination of confusing and gay.
You chose not to join a player owned corp. While it's true that most of the ones who openly recruit are either gay, stupid, annoying, or a wicked amalgamation of all three, finding a good corp of interesting players is key to enjoying the game. For one, you could never fully grasp the ins and outs of the gameplay without advice from corpmates.
Unlike WoW, Eve has depth to it that rivals one of the Second Life thingies. Take, for instance, the way some players simply mine, engineer, or trade to make money (and, as strange as it seems, to have fun) instead of using mission grinding or pirating.
Your character portrait is seen whenever someone is looking up your profile to decide how much of a threat you pose or if you're trustworthy. It's relevant. I use a girly avatar simply to increase my chances of getting away with the murder I'm continuously committing.
All for your consideration.
I'd also like to add that your reviews are getting less and less entertaining of late.
Maybe time for a holiday? Chance to explore new ideas and perspectives?
Anyhoo...
Hope this inspires you to greater and funnier rantings,
J
Well, I'm glad you stepped up to my challenge, even if you only stepped up to it the same way a bored and overworked whore would to a client whose sex she has no intention of enjoying.
Here's the deal: you missed everything (where's the itallics for emphasis - dammit) about Eve that sets it apart in the MMO genre.
I wish I hadn't played it past the 14day free trial and experienced the things I have, but it's done now. I'm both engrossed and addicted. Mostly to the PVP, which is far more than you've inadequately described. The truth is that nobody less than a month old in the game is ready for even the most basic pvp. Even against another nubbin the fighting would be a vicious combination of confusing and gay.
You chose not to join a player owned corp. While it's true that most of the ones who openly recruit are either gay, stupid, annoying, or a wicked amalgamation of all three, finding a good corp of interesting players is key to enjoying the game. For one, you could never fully grasp the ins and outs of the gameplay without advice from corpmates.
Unlike WoW, Eve has depth to it that rivals one of the Second Life thingies. Take, for instance, the way some players simply mine, engineer, or trade to make money (and, as strange as it seems, to have fun) instead of using mission grinding or pirating.
Your character portrait is seen whenever someone is looking up your profile to decide how much of a threat you pose or if you're trustworthy. It's relevant. I use a girly avatar simply to increase my chances of getting away with the murder I'm continuously committing.
All for your consideration.
I'd also like to add that your reviews are getting less and less entertaining of late.
Maybe time for a holiday? Chance to explore new ideas and perspectives?
Anyhoo...
Hope this inspires you to greater and funnier rantings,
J
You don't need to justify yourself on forums dear, if you managed to get even one sentence of nerd rage directed at you in this time then it's reward enough in itself. In fact I suspect the sheer number of anti-eve wow player posts in this thread has given us enough salty tears to sustain us for another 5 years.Elminsters Hat post=6.70442.693445 said:
Also if you want nerdery you got it, Gallante are a drone based race not missiles and how did he manage to fit strip miners (visable on screenshot) and do kill missions on a 14 day trial?
+1000 nerd points if you please sir.
I played the game and yes, yes it is bone crushingly boring. It's one of those games that isn't fun AT ALL unless you were there from the second it came out, and the market is, as he said, completely useless until you have more money than god. Also it really should've had a Oblivion style travel system, but as it stands it can take literally HOURS to get from point A to a-few-systems-away B.