Yup, this is Yahtzee's most accurate review yet. Everything he says is true, especially the bits about the interface unfriendliness and the endless series of 'go here and shoot things' missions. Good work.
Zero Punctuation: Eve Online
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
<- 3 years eve vet.
I made a bloody forum account for this post, so you better read it Yahtzee!!!
Agree with what you said about the game, if it'd just have the single player stuff there I'd have quit a long time ago; here's tons of other MMORPG's that do that kindof stuff better.
But I'm still playing it for the multiplayer. If you had joined say, eve university (as somebody else proposed I believe) for this you could've perhaps seen a few things that does make eve different. Since you'll never play the game again, such advice is pretty pointless, but I wanted to defend/justify the 12985612 hours I put into this game the last 3 years in some way.
I made a bloody forum account for this post, so you better read it Yahtzee!!!
Agree with what you said about the game, if it'd just have the single player stuff there I'd have quit a long time ago; here's tons of other MMORPG's that do that kindof stuff better.
But I'm still playing it for the multiplayer. If you had joined say, eve university (as somebody else proposed I believe) for this you could've perhaps seen a few things that does make eve different. Since you'll never play the game again, such advice is pretty pointless, but I wanted to defend/justify the 12985612 hours I put into this game the last 3 years in some way.
Awesome, And btw you werent referring to me in that vid? cuz i did request that you do one on eve because of its "self grind" aspect. If so then i never said eve was different from others just that it was a self grinder. Otherwise too true review, but you woulda had more fun in a corp. cuz A. You fight bigger stuff with corps B. You dont gota crawl your way up the money tree in most corps they just pay you and of course C. Both your skill lvl and social skill bars will go up. But i still agree, eve alone is the most boring thing EVER.. i dont think i could play eve if i didnt have a friend and a corp.
Y'know, I think a lot of people forget that Yahtzee approaches a game from a particular angle, with a particular goal in mind: Enjoyable, thoughtful entertainment that you can get into quickly, without depending on a lot of other people to make the whole thing fun.
The thing about EVE Online is that you can't have the first half of that without the second. EVE is, at its deepest roots, what Star Trek would look like if reimagined by Mao Tse Tung and Adam Smith, with footnotes written by David "Son of Sam" Berkowitz. Any single particular EVE player is nothing more than a tiny cog in the grand financial/military machine; the biggest difference you can make is to choose which PART of the machine to lend your... err, cognosity to, which means becoming a part of a player-run corporation. Otherwise all you're really doing is treading water in a static environment.
And yes, PvP is a major part of the game, since so much of the game world is defined and held by the players themselves. The key rule to remember is "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose". No, you don't lose EVERYTHING if you're "killed" in EVE, but you do lose the ship, whatever weapons, modules and cargo was aboard it, and (if you're killed yourself) your implants and whatever skills your clone (think "backup version of you") isn't able to keep. Warfare in EVE is sort of a four-facet "rock paper scissors" game played in three dimensions, where things like angle of approach and speed really do matter.
Playing EVE Online in a solo fashion as a member of the NPC corporations is like playing a game of pen-and-paper Dungeons & Dragons by yourself- all you're left with is a bunch of numbers that hold no meaning and no real sense of purpose.
That said, Yahtzee does more or less speak the truth about the game in his review. It's a daunting game to get into, even though they've recently revamped the tutorial missions; it's designed to get you into the habit of asking for help, and eventually forming social connections. You can more or less go wherever you want, and do whatever you want, but the full consequences of everything you do fall on your head like a ton of bricks, and there's precious little warning that what you're doing is patently stupid and will end up with you sucking vacuum. Playing it solo is both boring and aggravating (unless you're like me and enjoy spending time flying off to look at stars or weird planets close-up) and takes a very long time to give you any sense of accomplishment.
I might add that two of the additions planned for the game- ambulation (actually getting out of your ship and walking around, preferably aboard a station, not in the harsh vacuum of deep space) and atmospheric flight (flying INTO a planet rather than just around one)- are promising to break things up a bit. I, myself, would love to be able to fly into the upper atmosphere of some gas giant and dogfight around the edges of an electrical storm twice the size of Earth.
All this from a guy who has had an EVE account for 15 months and still belongs to the beginning NPC corporation. What can I say, I like building things and selling them. Granted, I could get the same experience (and actual spending money) from taking up macrame, but it's hard to imagine my little decorative owl dust covers flying through the cosmos and blowing up some poor schlub in a dinky mining craft.
The thing about EVE Online is that you can't have the first half of that without the second. EVE is, at its deepest roots, what Star Trek would look like if reimagined by Mao Tse Tung and Adam Smith, with footnotes written by David "Son of Sam" Berkowitz. Any single particular EVE player is nothing more than a tiny cog in the grand financial/military machine; the biggest difference you can make is to choose which PART of the machine to lend your... err, cognosity to, which means becoming a part of a player-run corporation. Otherwise all you're really doing is treading water in a static environment.
And yes, PvP is a major part of the game, since so much of the game world is defined and held by the players themselves. The key rule to remember is "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose". No, you don't lose EVERYTHING if you're "killed" in EVE, but you do lose the ship, whatever weapons, modules and cargo was aboard it, and (if you're killed yourself) your implants and whatever skills your clone (think "backup version of you") isn't able to keep. Warfare in EVE is sort of a four-facet "rock paper scissors" game played in three dimensions, where things like angle of approach and speed really do matter.
Playing EVE Online in a solo fashion as a member of the NPC corporations is like playing a game of pen-and-paper Dungeons & Dragons by yourself- all you're left with is a bunch of numbers that hold no meaning and no real sense of purpose.
That said, Yahtzee does more or less speak the truth about the game in his review. It's a daunting game to get into, even though they've recently revamped the tutorial missions; it's designed to get you into the habit of asking for help, and eventually forming social connections. You can more or less go wherever you want, and do whatever you want, but the full consequences of everything you do fall on your head like a ton of bricks, and there's precious little warning that what you're doing is patently stupid and will end up with you sucking vacuum. Playing it solo is both boring and aggravating (unless you're like me and enjoy spending time flying off to look at stars or weird planets close-up) and takes a very long time to give you any sense of accomplishment.
I might add that two of the additions planned for the game- ambulation (actually getting out of your ship and walking around, preferably aboard a station, not in the harsh vacuum of deep space) and atmospheric flight (flying INTO a planet rather than just around one)- are promising to break things up a bit. I, myself, would love to be able to fly into the upper atmosphere of some gas giant and dogfight around the edges of an electrical storm twice the size of Earth.
All this from a guy who has had an EVE account for 15 months and still belongs to the beginning NPC corporation. What can I say, I like building things and selling them. Granted, I could get the same experience (and actual spending money) from taking up macrame, but it's hard to imagine my little decorative owl dust covers flying through the cosmos and blowing up some poor schlub in a dinky mining craft.
Dear Mr. Crosshaw,
Well, I'm glad you stepped up to my challenge, even if you only stepped up to it the same way a bored and overworked whore would to a client whose sex she has no intention of enjoying.
Here's the deal: you missed everything (where's the itallics for emphasis - dammit) about Eve that sets it apart in the MMO genre.
I wish I hadn't played it past the 14day free trial and experienced the things I have, but it's done now. I'm both engrossed and addicted. Mostly to the PVP, which is far more than you've inadequately described. The truth is that nobody less than a month old in the game is ready for even the most basic pvp. Even against another nubbin the fighting would be a vicious combination of confusing and gay.
You chose not to join a player owned corp. While it's true that most of the ones who openly recruit are either gay, stupid, annoying, or a wicked amalgamation of all three, finding a good corp of interesting players is key to enjoying the game. For one, you could never fully grasp the ins and outs of the gameplay without advice from corpmates.
Unlike WoW, Eve has depth to it that rivals one of the Second Life thingies. Take, for instance, the way some players simply mine, engineer, or trade to make money (and, as strange as it seems, to have fun) instead of using mission grinding or pirating.
Your character portrait is seen whenever someone is looking up your profile to decide how much of a threat you pose or if you're trustworthy. It's relevant. I use a girly avatar simply to increase my chances of getting away with the murder I'm continuously committing.
All for your consideration.
I'd also like to add that your reviews are getting less and less entertaining of late.
Maybe time for a holiday? Chance to explore new ideas and perspectives?
Anyhoo...
Hope this inspires you to greater and funnier rantings,
J
Well, I'm glad you stepped up to my challenge, even if you only stepped up to it the same way a bored and overworked whore would to a client whose sex she has no intention of enjoying.
Here's the deal: you missed everything (where's the itallics for emphasis - dammit) about Eve that sets it apart in the MMO genre.
I wish I hadn't played it past the 14day free trial and experienced the things I have, but it's done now. I'm both engrossed and addicted. Mostly to the PVP, which is far more than you've inadequately described. The truth is that nobody less than a month old in the game is ready for even the most basic pvp. Even against another nubbin the fighting would be a vicious combination of confusing and gay.
You chose not to join a player owned corp. While it's true that most of the ones who openly recruit are either gay, stupid, annoying, or a wicked amalgamation of all three, finding a good corp of interesting players is key to enjoying the game. For one, you could never fully grasp the ins and outs of the gameplay without advice from corpmates.
Unlike WoW, Eve has depth to it that rivals one of the Second Life thingies. Take, for instance, the way some players simply mine, engineer, or trade to make money (and, as strange as it seems, to have fun) instead of using mission grinding or pirating.
Your character portrait is seen whenever someone is looking up your profile to decide how much of a threat you pose or if you're trustworthy. It's relevant. I use a girly avatar simply to increase my chances of getting away with the murder I'm continuously committing.
All for your consideration.
I'd also like to add that your reviews are getting less and less entertaining of late.
Maybe time for a holiday? Chance to explore new ideas and perspectives?
Anyhoo...
Hope this inspires you to greater and funnier rantings,
J
You don't need to justify yourself on forums dear, if you managed to get even one sentence of nerd rage directed at you in this time then it's reward enough in itself. In fact I suspect the sheer number of anti-eve wow player posts in this thread has given us enough salty tears to sustain us for another 5 years.Elminsters Hat post=6.70442.693445 said:
Also if you want nerdery you got it, Gallante are a drone based race not missiles and how did he manage to fit strip miners (visable on screenshot) and do kill missions on a 14 day trial?
+1000 nerd points if you please sir.
I played the game and yes, yes it is bone crushingly boring. It's one of those games that isn't fun AT ALL unless you were there from the second it came out, and the market is, as he said, completely useless until you have more money than god. Also it really should've had a Oblivion style travel system, but as it stands it can take literally HOURS to get from point A to a-few-systems-away B.
You must be doing it wrong, then, since unless a couple of systems numbers in the dozens and you have it set to auto-pilot ( another interesting part of the game ), it usually only takes me minutes if I'm doing it right. A system can only take as long as one minute, or two if there's a particular distance between my entrance gate and the next portal to system XYZ.Atrer post=6.70442.693511 said:
Edit: Err, and in reply the fellow above me, while you did do a service by linking the thread, and I suppose I should thank you for finally finding me a political EVE map in something other than teensie-weensie 120x120 pixel-vision, calling Yahtzee a 'noob' hardly gains you any points.
Honestly, I thought this was a very accurate summary of everything that's absolutely wrong with EVE. The only thing that was missing was mention of the fact that the entire playerbase is either pants-on-head retarded or out to fucking get you with levels of passive-aggressivism hitherto unknown to online gaming as a whole.
Sign me up to the "I agree with Yahtzee" newsletter on this, EVE'll never reach my PC again.
Sign me up to the "I agree with Yahtzee" newsletter on this, EVE'll never reach my PC again.
I don't know, I keep getting the feeling Yahtzee has the totally wrong approach with the MMOs he hates so much. The entire point of an MMO is the fact that other people are there, hence the massively MULTIPLAYER online game. If you ignore everyone, of course the game will suck, it wasn't designed to be played that way.
Anyways, Eve was entirely about the corporations from when I played, and it was a good deal of fun to befriend some people long enough to gain access to the hangar, and run away with it. Only to get tracked down by a bounty hunter and be blown to bits.
Anyways, Eve was entirely about the corporations from when I played, and it was a good deal of fun to befriend some people long enough to gain access to the hangar, and run away with it. Only to get tracked down by a bounty hunter and be blown to bits.
I think Yahtzee has better things to do with his time than to herd his legions of devout followers (read: you), however able to make a comprehensive few sentences they are. While we're on you, generalizing playerbases for games such as EVE is not the same thing as generalizing playerbases, say, like the Xbox Live crew; not everyone is a throbbing cock slap to the retinas.Takatchi post=6.70442.693563 said:
To be quite honest I played this game about a year ago, I heard my friends praising this game and I decided to try it. To enjoy this game you have to find spreadsheets and math erotic and you have to find economics THRILLING. Otherwise you will hate this game as much as Yahtzee. For the love of god it took me half an hour to make a character and not in the good City of Heroes way. In the "Let me wiki this" way.
a bit random huh?
I mean this game has been around for YEARS. And no explanation like with painkiller...
I mean this game has been around for YEARS. And no explanation like with painkiller...
If you told me I was going to make an account for some forum for the express purposes of attempting to give some insight to a man who obviously cares little for actually getting anything right, I would probably push the air conditioner in the window behind me out and attempt to race it to the ground after pushing my own body out after it.
With that said, I have to make an exception for Yahtzee, who is becoming increasingly pathetic in his reviews over these weeks. Once upon a time (parents get your children, or your cardboard cut-outs, because it's story time) I actually enjoyed the reviews Yahtzee bestowed to the public as an attempt to give out his hilarious opinions. Well hilarious opinions is only good if it isn't something that ends up becoming a short-term gimmick. Not that I'm saying he has to get every single review to be funny, but he could at least make me smile. At least when I'm smiling, I'm mildly amused at the bare minimum. It's not hard to make me smile, I enjoy funny things and I'm not picky about hilarity. However, I can't laugh at blatant disrespect for the industry or complete lack of what could be considered ANYTHING.
My point is, Yahtzee is becoming the un-funny much in the same way that Variable Fighter Gundams (yes... I am talking about Zeta Gundam, in which the Gundam in question transforms... In to... A fighter. Macross style... Desperation perhaps?) are the un-Gundam and represent the decline of civilization. You ask me how, I'm telling you I don't care and use your head to figure it out. I have to laugh at the sheer amount of neglect put in to the EVE Online review. Besides the fact that it's pretty much useless to ever review an MMO, it's even more so useless to review one that receives major updates over the years with a vast amount of content.
Even worse, I have to end this post with the fact that Yahtzee was actually ignorant enough to make a claim that could be proven true or false by simply using the internet (OMG Nobody uses that these days! I know it's a long shot to recommend, but sometimes there's places where you can LEARN! E-GASP!). Because obviously EVE Online is a rip-off of World of Warcraft despite the simple that that EVE Online came out a full year (even more so if you want to get technical, a full half year added to that is the plain truth) earlier and actually has decent updates. World of Warcraft couldn't be a larger piece of trash if they released priced expansion packs for the game.
OH WAIT... They do! Sorry about that. Well at least the almost yearly major updates for EVE Online are free right? They are? Ok good, don't want to make myself look like a fool again.
But I don't give Yahtzee enough credit, so here's the happy pie: Even though the review was essentially the George Bush of the bunch [If I have to explain this, HAH... (Yes this review was WORSE than the MGS4 one. I don't hate the MGS4 review because I liked MGS4. I thought the review was a piece of complete crap because of the fact that he doesn't seem to understand how MGS works yet still writes a review on it. The only reason I laughed at that review was because I was imagining Shakespearian Monkeys with typewriters typing out the word 'poop' which essentially sums up said review. End Parentheses) it did make some right points. EVE Online can be a BORING game. But then ALL MMOs are boring at some point in time. In fact, ALL games will bore you eventually. If you've been playing Pong since the day it came out and have the attention span of Wall-E in that you can essentially play thousands of games by yourself, then you sir are a hero and I would like to initiate a body-swap (no matter how much of a drop-out useless crap-shoot druggie you are). EVE Online is a fun game even though a lot of the high-tier ships are just colored variants of the same low-tier ships in different sizes, and it's BECAUSE it has such immense diversity and such fantastic systems of Player Corporations and Manufacturing and the like that sets it apart from other MMOs. The plain fact is: No MMO does what EVE does. You can name the largest fraction possible based on the current laws of math and physics and I'll still tell you you're an idiot for getting the answer wrong, because no game comes close to that fraction.
With that Yahtzee I suggest you watch Comedy Central. Demetri Martin is a funny guy, I'm sure he can teach you something about making individuals (yes individuals. I would've said people but if I had said that it would've been like saying all people are equal. There's too many drones in this world now to say that. Thank goodness Oprah hasn't suggested suicide to her viewing audience, otherwise we'd be faced with a MASSIVE population loss worldwide. ... Actually now I WANT her to do it)at least snicker and politely pretend to be enjoying themselves.
Now I know I don't have to waste my time doing all that up above this line... But I think my job will be done if at least person understands I have a point. Ooooo watch out folks! There's opinions in this post! AVERT THE BABY'S EYES! Edit: I have to comment I was amazed by the immense amount of people who actually decided not to touch EVE Online because of this review. Don't get me wrong people, I wont suggest EVE Online to anyone who isn't prepared for a large learning curve or ready to enjoy complications. So thus, I would probably never suggest this game to anyone who is actually turned off from a game which has a trial because of a not-hilarious review. There's a 14-Day free trial for EVE Online, I suggest that if you're smart enough to know WoW isn't a game (it's a running bill. Seriously) pick the trial up and join a corporation.
With that said, I have to make an exception for Yahtzee, who is becoming increasingly pathetic in his reviews over these weeks. Once upon a time (parents get your children, or your cardboard cut-outs, because it's story time) I actually enjoyed the reviews Yahtzee bestowed to the public as an attempt to give out his hilarious opinions. Well hilarious opinions is only good if it isn't something that ends up becoming a short-term gimmick. Not that I'm saying he has to get every single review to be funny, but he could at least make me smile. At least when I'm smiling, I'm mildly amused at the bare minimum. It's not hard to make me smile, I enjoy funny things and I'm not picky about hilarity. However, I can't laugh at blatant disrespect for the industry or complete lack of what could be considered ANYTHING.
My point is, Yahtzee is becoming the un-funny much in the same way that Variable Fighter Gundams (yes... I am talking about Zeta Gundam, in which the Gundam in question transforms... In to... A fighter. Macross style... Desperation perhaps?) are the un-Gundam and represent the decline of civilization. You ask me how, I'm telling you I don't care and use your head to figure it out. I have to laugh at the sheer amount of neglect put in to the EVE Online review. Besides the fact that it's pretty much useless to ever review an MMO, it's even more so useless to review one that receives major updates over the years with a vast amount of content.
Even worse, I have to end this post with the fact that Yahtzee was actually ignorant enough to make a claim that could be proven true or false by simply using the internet (OMG Nobody uses that these days! I know it's a long shot to recommend, but sometimes there's places where you can LEARN! E-GASP!). Because obviously EVE Online is a rip-off of World of Warcraft despite the simple that that EVE Online came out a full year (even more so if you want to get technical, a full half year added to that is the plain truth) earlier and actually has decent updates. World of Warcraft couldn't be a larger piece of trash if they released priced expansion packs for the game.
OH WAIT... They do! Sorry about that. Well at least the almost yearly major updates for EVE Online are free right? They are? Ok good, don't want to make myself look like a fool again.
But I don't give Yahtzee enough credit, so here's the happy pie: Even though the review was essentially the George Bush of the bunch [If I have to explain this, HAH... (Yes this review was WORSE than the MGS4 one. I don't hate the MGS4 review because I liked MGS4. I thought the review was a piece of complete crap because of the fact that he doesn't seem to understand how MGS works yet still writes a review on it. The only reason I laughed at that review was because I was imagining Shakespearian Monkeys with typewriters typing out the word 'poop' which essentially sums up said review. End Parentheses) it did make some right points. EVE Online can be a BORING game. But then ALL MMOs are boring at some point in time. In fact, ALL games will bore you eventually. If you've been playing Pong since the day it came out and have the attention span of Wall-E in that you can essentially play thousands of games by yourself, then you sir are a hero and I would like to initiate a body-swap (no matter how much of a drop-out useless crap-shoot druggie you are). EVE Online is a fun game even though a lot of the high-tier ships are just colored variants of the same low-tier ships in different sizes, and it's BECAUSE it has such immense diversity and such fantastic systems of Player Corporations and Manufacturing and the like that sets it apart from other MMOs. The plain fact is: No MMO does what EVE does. You can name the largest fraction possible based on the current laws of math and physics and I'll still tell you you're an idiot for getting the answer wrong, because no game comes close to that fraction.
With that Yahtzee I suggest you watch Comedy Central. Demetri Martin is a funny guy, I'm sure he can teach you something about making individuals (yes individuals. I would've said people but if I had said that it would've been like saying all people are equal. There's too many drones in this world now to say that. Thank goodness Oprah hasn't suggested suicide to her viewing audience, otherwise we'd be faced with a MASSIVE population loss worldwide. ... Actually now I WANT her to do it)at least snicker and politely pretend to be enjoying themselves.
Now I know I don't have to waste my time doing all that up above this line... But I think my job will be done if at least person understands I have a point. Ooooo watch out folks! There's opinions in this post! AVERT THE BABY'S EYES! Edit: I have to comment I was amazed by the immense amount of people who actually decided not to touch EVE Online because of this review. Don't get me wrong people, I wont suggest EVE Online to anyone who isn't prepared for a large learning curve or ready to enjoy complications. So thus, I would probably never suggest this game to anyone who is actually turned off from a game which has a trial because of a not-hilarious review. There's a 14-Day free trial for EVE Online, I suggest that if you're smart enough to know WoW isn't a game (it's a running bill. Seriously) pick the trial up and join a corporation.
Considering evidence provided so graciously by people who would step up to defend EVE (read: you), I have to say that I stand by my assessment that EVE Online's playerbase is one of the worst in terms of sportsmanship, spirit, and community. While you may argue that thousands of players have forged player-owned and player-run operations in the darkest holes of space, we still come back to the idea that one of the largest and possibly most successful corporations in the game generally spends its time thinking up new ways to violate the good faith of other players by being infinitely frustrating, on purpose, to those who would otherwise leave them be and enjoy their PVP-free Empire space play, while at the same time screaming "Sandbox play, sandbox play!"Sigenrecht post=6.70442.693584 said:
You may be able to say that EVE Online does wonders for the online community and that bringing together so many people to "build something" is incredible, but when the foundations of these "somethings" are essentially destruction, mayhem, and the purposeful spoiling of gaming experience for others, I have to question the nature of its players, and I answer myself contently with "It's run by a bunch of dicks."
EVE can claim intellectual superiority to every other MMORPG on the planet and be right; it definitely takes a dedication and higher mind to get into and enjoy. But you can crunch all the math you like and the end result still doesn't make up for the grievous hole where sportsmanship used to be.
(The only people in EVE who aren't targets are simply lucky enough to have avoided it so far.)
Let me tell you a little story. Back when I was a lowly frigate-runner with a balance somewhere roughly in the one to two million range, I had finally earned myself the right to use a cruiser; equipping myself for the perils of player-run territory, I went headlong into the abyssal darkness of the EVE Universe. Twenty minutes later, I'd taken critical hull damage and was on the verge of being popped like a misshapen balloon. Suddenly, the subject of hostility stopped firing his salvos of missiles roughly the size of my phallic vehicle in themselves and hailed me. After a few minutes of conversation, we had established that I was in fact a newbie barely out of the learning-curb infancy of the game, and not only used modules to fully repair my critical system, but gave me money to repay for the irreparable hull damage he had incurred upon me and gave me advice on how to spot marauders like him before they even came in range of filling my ass with bullets and a Pink Floyd lights show. After a few kind farewells, I was back on my way; this time, in the opposite direction, for I knew this country was no place for youthful stallions like myself.Takatchi post=6.70442.693622 said:
The moral? You're the offended ass here, still making sweeping generalizations.