Zero Punctuation: Eve Online

[Nohra]

I think the biggest problem in EVE remains that whoever has been playing longest is automatically the best.

That, and how complicated the combat system is. Don't get me wrong, it's quite realistic, but for ships that can at most only sport 8 guns/missile launchers, it's a bit complex compared to that simplicity.

And the PvE becomes the same monotonous grind with things that will pop you slightly faster than the previous group of things unless you have so many hardeners that 3k shot turns into a 50 damage shot. Really, the only change between level 1 and level 4 missions is that now instead of a frigate, you're generally in a battleship, and you have so many hardeners that you take about the same amount of damage your frigate was taking, but your armor repairer/shield booster does about 10 times the amount now.

 

[zbobet2012]

I think the biggest problem in EVE remains that whoever has been playing longest is automatically the best

Yeah no, if you don't know how to fit and fly your ship in pvp you will still suck hardcore. I solo pepople with twice the time in the game as me every day because they armor tank a vagabond or sit on a in a nano ship.

 

[Odjin]

I like playing games with other people. MMO's, splitscreen/online FPS, Guitar Hero, I don't care. Playing on your own against the computer is purely and simply less fun than playing with and/or against people.

That's a difference. There you play with friends and have a good time... let's say for an evening or a couple of hours. It's not like filling up a chat window with nonsense and allying with total strangers just so you are in the dealing end of a Gang-Bang. The problem with this games is that it's not "friends playing together" but "socializing" crap. I like playing PoA with a couple of guys I know or Quake back then with people on a LAN. This is fun but this is the important difference: play "with" friends and not play "against" total strangers. Later one is what MMOs try to achieve and they fail since it's just clobbered together out of nowhere and has therefore no "meat" nor "will to exist".

No. Strategy is a long-term battle-plan, tactics is the short-term implementation of that part of the plan using conditions and resources available.

PoA has tactics for example but not this game here. Chess has strategy but not this game. In a game to be competitive, fun and challenging you need a balance game with a reasonable set of alternatives. Then strategy and/or tactics ( depending on the game ) comes into play. MMOs are about crawling into the arse of high ranking players to GB others. This is at best back-stabbing and arse-licking but has not even the slightest to do with strategy or tactics in a fair and challanging match.

100-vs-1 is very much strategy and tactics; i.e., planning how you're going to make sure you're the 100 and not the 1. Figuring out how to create situations where you have the advantage and avoid situations where you don't is a cornerstone of BOTH strategy AND tactics, and abject failure to employ either is usually the reason you find yourself in a 100-vs-1 encounter in the first place. I'm sorry if you thought charging around blind and attacking everything you see would be as effective in MMO PvP as they are in GTA.

Wrong. It's cheating and in general unfair playing ( or "trashing" how we call this kind of play style ). Unbalanced gameplay is a failure since it rewards only the cheaters and the lamers glueing to high rankers to do their work. This is not strategy nor tactics ( see above ).

Bottom line, people with no imagination who need big neon signs pointing to the fun won't enjoy Eve and shouldn't even bother. Not to say that imaginative self-starters will definitely like it, but it makes them Might Do's instead of Definitely Won'ts.

If I have already imagination why then pay big bucket for a broken gameplay where only "my imagination" ( and that of others ) is fixing the failure? If the game would be free, okay, go on and let the players fix the broken game with imagination... it's their problem. But paying for a broken game experience is simply one of the reasons todays gaming industries sucks so hard.

You aren't. Unless you're a mission-grinder or a career miner

Isn't this exactly what you need to get anywhere to start with? And those using it are simply uber without having to do anything? I stick there to Yathzees view in that a game which is designed to amuse while you play it requires you to go amuse yourself doing something else is simply a failure.

 

[daedrick]

yes, yes, its so true. I totaly agree about the nerdz of the nerdz of the nerdz of the normal people... thingy. Why cant I ever frigging make a remotly good english sentence.

Life is so hard.

/wrist

 

[Cynopt]

Much love and all that, but before Yahtzee reviews another MMO he has got to start by getting access to an end-game enabled account instead of just the starter; the early game is always little more than a bit of tutorial (if your lucky) and a lot of mindless level grinding so you can get to the real game.
He's also got to find a way to actually engage with the social part of the game; it's common knowledge they all play like a semi-retarded, laggy version of any standard RPG from the previous decade, so until someone finds a way to build a persistent-world MMO with proper gameplay, the only thing that really matters is how well it enables you to enjoy running around and killing shit with *other* people.
Ideally, he ought to try raiding or similar large-group stuff for a month or two if he really wants to trash the genre with total authority, but meh; mostly spot-on as usual.

 

[Vinanath Diesel]

I really have to point out that Eve's TRIAL really is too short to make an informed opinion on it. The statement Yathze made concerning the combat system is innacurate. I have seen roving gangs of noobs take on eve vets and wipe the floor with the so called vets. All in all, a funny review just not a fair shake. If it's already been mentioned, then I apologize but I simply can't be arsed to go through 420 comments on this epic threadnought.

 

[Portkins]

I really have to point out that Eve's TRIAL really is too short to make an informed opinion on it. The statement Yathze made concerning the combat system is innacurate.

Fully agreed, but I do agree about some (of Yahtzee's) opinions. Aliens would've been a plus, for one thing.

 

[koshua]

Having played Eve in the background for three years now, I heartily endorse Y's closing comment. It is indeed my executive background toy! It does indeed take ages to do anything. This is part of the the appeal ...

However, deliberately avoiding player corporations and not even mentioning PvP or manufacturing rather misses out on about 95% of the game ...

 

[aaronomus]

I really have to point out that Eve's TRIAL really is too short to make an informed opinion on it.

If it takes more than 2 weeks for a game to become fun, it's a shitty game.

 

[koshua]

Would anyone care to sum up EVE in one sentence?

Having played a great deal of Eve in the background of my everyday work, I can agree with Yahtzee on something. Here's your one sentence:

"Eve is an ultra-slow-paced online multiplayer executive 3D toy, simulating both the economy and combat of a galactic-scale conflict between empires."

 

[masterpoobaa]

When i first started playing eve on a trial account i expected combat to be a little similar ot freelancer, where skill plays some part in things.
Boy was I wrong.
Another thing Y is spot on about is the interface. Normally when i start playing a game the interface shows some logic to it, no so eve. my god it was confusing.

I loved old freelancer and its wander everywhere, blast what you like feel, despite its many bugs and simplistic gameplay.
I also play wow regularly, quite a few hours per week.
So im not anti MMORPG, nor anti space game. Just anti eve.

 

[Xojins]

Great review, I found it funny.

So far, Yahtzee has shit on pretty much every MMORPG, and has compared them to WoW. This leaves me wondering one thing: Is there ever going to be a WoW review?

 

[koshua]

If it takes more than 2 weeks for a game to become fun, it's a shitty game.

Eve never becomes fun. That isn't why I play. It's more like a team sport than a game.

It does, however, become awesome. In my first ever fleet battle I thought my heart would thump out of my chest.

 

[lord667]

I like playing games with other people. MMO's, splitscreen/online FPS, Guitar Hero, I don't care. Playing on your own against the computer is purely and simply less fun than playing with and/or against people.

That's a difference. There you play with friends and have a good time... let's say for an evening or a couple of hours. It's not like filling up a chat window with nonsense and allying with total strangers just so you are in the dealing end of a Gang-Bang. The problem with this games is that it's not "friends playing together" but "socializing" crap. I like playing PoA with a couple of guys I know or Quake back then with people on a LAN. This is fun but this is the important difference: play "with" friends and not play "against" total strangers. Later one is what MMOs try to achieve and they fail since it's just clobbered together out of nowhere and has therefore no "meat" nor "will to exist".

We just differ on that point. For me, "friends playing together" and the "socialising crap" are both fun.

No. Strategy is a long-term battle-plan, tactics is the short-term implementation of that part of the plan using conditions and resources available.

PoA has tactics for example but not this game here. Chess has strategy but not this game. In a game to be competitive, fun and challenging you need a balance game with a reasonable set of alternatives. Then strategy and/or tactics ( depending on the game ) comes into play. MMOs are about crawling into the arse of high ranking players to GB others. This is at best back-stabbing and arse-licking but has not even the slightest to do with strategy or tactics in a fair and challanging match.

You're only thinking in terms of individual encounters. Part of MMO's like Eve, and where the strategy comes in, is doing the background work to set up those encounters in your favour. You're stacking the deck a bit by talking about "fair and challenging matches" when part of the point of strategy is to avoid fair fights whenever possible. Both sides then employ tactics to get the best result out of those rigged encounters. Plenty of attempted "gang bangs" fail when the smaller side has a plan and the bigger side is relying on weight of numbers.

Basically, you're thinking in Deathmatch terms when the spirit of PvP MMO's is a sort of competitive Campaign Mode.

100-vs-1 is very much strategy and tactics; i.e., planning how you're going to make sure you're the 100 and not the 1. Figuring out how to create situations where you have the advantage and avoid situations where you don't is a cornerstone of BOTH strategy AND tactics, and abject failure to employ either is usually the reason you find yourself in a 100-vs-1 encounter in the first place. I'm sorry if you thought charging around blind and attacking everything you see would be as effective in MMO PvP as they are in GTA.

Wrong. It's cheating

It's not cheating. Games are played according to their own rules, not the ones in your code of honour.

and in general unfair playing ( or "trashing" how we call this kind of play style ). Unbalanced gameplay is a failure since it rewards only the cheaters and the lamers glueing to high rankers to do their work.

It's unbalanced from battle to battle, if you're doing things right, but over time, everyone has the same opportunities and is held back by the same restrictions.

This is not strategy nor tactics ( see above ).

It is both. You don't get to just declare that strategy isn't strategy outside certain situations.

Bottom line, people with no imagination who need big neon signs pointing to the fun won't enjoy Eve and shouldn't even bother. Not to say that imaginative self-starters will definitely like it, but it makes them Might Do's instead of Definitely Won'ts.

If I have already imagination why then pay big bucket for a broken gameplay where only "my imagination" ( and that of others ) is fixing the failure?

The gameplay isn't broken, precisely because letting players use their imagination is a key part of what the game's supposed to be about. If you didn't have to use your imagination, that would mean it was broken.

You aren't. Unless you're a mission-grinder or a career miner

Isn't this exactly what you need to get anywhere to start with?

To start with, yes. Then using your imagination kicks in. Or it doesn't, and you quit.

And those using it are simply uber without having to do anything?

No. Grinding missions does not and cannot make you uber in combat, in Eve. Someone who's been grinding top-level missions for two years and one day flies his expensively-fitted ship into combat for the first time will die hard and leave the enemy some really awesome loot.

Of course, if you view "uber" as simply meaning "has big expensive ship and lots of expensive mods", then yes, but in Eve terms, that generally isn't what "uber" means.

I stick there to Yathzees view in that a game which is designed to amuse while you play it requires you to go amuse yourself doing something else is simply a failure.

I agree. Eve isn't that game.

 

[Dogmeat T Dingo]

Can't find anything to disagree with here, Yahtzee pretty much nails EVE in one go. Sure, he didn't try out the player corps but from what I saw of them they were just grind/PvP guilds and eveything he implied about them was correct too. I've tried to like EVE, I really have. But there's only so much time you can invest in it before you inevitably start to say to yourself "Why am I doing this?". In EVE's defense that happens to me in every MMO I've ever played, from Anarchy Online to World of Warcraft to Vanguard to EVE to Age of Conan and a slew of others. But in EVE it seems a lot more painfully evident.

 

[DeusFps]

If it takes more than 2 weeks for a game to become fun, it's a shitty game.

Eve never becomes fun. That isn't why I play. It's more like a team sport than a game.

It does, however, become awesome. In my first ever fleet battle I thought my heart would thump out of my chest.

Correct about the battle part. EVE gets more exciting after a while. I rather have a game that is fun to play for years after than most most mmos which lose the fun factor in about 3 days. Theres nothing like going into a battle with something you spent hours getting, knowing you could lose it at any second.

 

[CptNiceHD]

The community of Vendetta Online--a smaller, less well-known Space MMORPG--has developed a derogative in regards to EvE (and its incredibly slow-paced game-play) that I find particularly apt: "Overglorified Screensaver".

Don't get me wrong; EvE is a good game in its own right. Nevertheless, I have to agree with Yahtzee that it has several very overt shortcomings. True enough, he rather distanced himself from much of the game's content by refusing to join a Player Corporation--there is no dispute of that. However, one has to realize that the whole point of allowing such a detached style of game-play in the first place is to allow newbies to galavant about and learn the ropes before they attempt delving into the "real game". In this regard, EvE does an abysmal job; frankly, if a two-week trial period fails to reel a player in, then there is something fundamentally wrong with the design to begin with.

Look at it this way: EvE sacrifices instant-gratification for long-term progress, since the former simply isn't sustainable. However, the instant-gratification can be likened to the carrot that entices a prospective player to stay after the trial period ends, and they are encouraged to move on the the "deeper" game-concepts once they've 'eaten' said carrot. The apparent absence of this metaphorical carrot is a problem; one that often goes overlooked by players who are all-too-willing to jump straight into the action rather than biding their time.

As for the renewable end-game content, frankly, thats somewhat thin in its own right, even though Yahtzee ultimately failed to cover it. As has been said by others, the universe is big, yes, but its mostly empty; the combat system is clumsy and primitive at best--ultimately boiling down to who has bigger guns and how many; and the political metagame (which I will concede is *quite* complicated), only a few players--the elite of the elite--have any real control over. Most players are at the mercy of the whims of fortune, and, at best, can only guess which way the wind is blowing (except for the lucky ones who direct it!).

All this ultimately weighs down what could be a truly fantastic game, complete with pretty graphics and a complicated setting as a bonus, and turns it into a mediocre game which generally caters only to a few groups of people. Namely: those mature players who are willing to look past the game's faults and connect with its more admirable intrinsics, and those sadists who get some twisted pleasure out of causing others grief.

In my opinion, if the EvE devs are smart, they'll take Yahtzee's scathing criticisms to heart, and work to mend the game's obvious weak-points without sacrificing the *good* aspects of the game that has kept the more mature fans playing all these years. Until then, Mr. Croshaw's comments stand (well, except the one about EvE trying to be WoW; that was poor research on his part).

 

[LoganAsh]

No PVP, No Corps.. Clearly somebody took a classical MMO approach to a game that isn't your standard MMO! EVE is a game that requires much more time i'm afraid.. Also the combat, as has been mentioned already, can be very complex what with distancing, weapon selection, evasion etc. but sadly, for this review, much of the games innovation only becomes apparent when you start up with the social, group play, side of the game.

I really think it's a serious case of stupidity when people play MMO's, but avoid the social (you know, the M-U-L-T-I-P-L-A-Y-E-R) aspect of it all. Imagine playing a game like WoW without other people, you're right Yhatzee, it'd be grind-tastic and complete crap! The point is, that with other players involved, it becomes a far more interesting, versatile and less repetative kettle of fish!

In referrence to above, i really doubt they watch ZP

 

[hammarus]

Clearly Yahtzee doesn't like MMOs, so he is qualified to rate EVE as one how? Sounds like we have another pubescent individual with attention deficit disorder getting a job at a semi informational and sometimes funny online gamers news forum wishing he really was working for a legitimate magazine like Time or Newsweek, but since he doesnt have the staying power will settle for a Glamour or Cosmo online version doing weekly filler articles. Creating an, albit funny, cartoon that punches one of its advertisers somehow seems really dumb to me. Whats the number of Escapist's subscribers by the way? I think its pretty low, much like my opinion of your opinion on MMOs which you don't even like.

Oh yeah, the article makes fun of a game. I say go back to your mind numbing rock'em sock'em self involved game on a console, where you can finish a game with 3 hours of gameplay versus a game that has been around more than 5 years. That way you can feel you are satisfied and get that instant gratification you and other impulse buyers crave.

 

[insanelich]

Clearly Yahtzee doesn't like MMOs, so he is qualified to rate EVE as one how? Sounds like we have another pubescent individual with attention deficit disorder getting a job at a semi informational and sometimes funny online gamers news forum wishing he really was working for a legitimate magazine like Time or Newsweek, but since he doesnt have the staying power will settle for Glamour or Cosmo doing the weekly filler articles. Creating an, albit funny, cartoon that punches one of its advertisers somehow seems really dumb to me.

Oh yeah, the article makes fun of a game. I say go back to your mind numbing rock'em sock'em self involved game on a console, where you can finish a game with 3 hours of gameplay versus a game that has been around more than 5 years. That way you can feel you are satisfied and get that instant gratification you and other impulse buyers crave.

FANBOY ANGRY. FANBOY SMASH!

Now, what's wrong with playing for fun instead of feeling achieved at sitting at your computer playing a simulation of real life if real life was significantly faster, without aging or physical traits slowing you down and set in boring as all heck space?

I just don't derive any fun from Eve and I certainly don't feel a sense of achievement over a simple and easy game - the only things you need are patience and real life money to pay for the game time - until you're in the ranks of the ultral33t of Eve and pay your game time with ISK. After that, you just need enough time to throw away.

So the only thing left is socializing which I can do IRL - and it's much better IRL, with better rewards too.

What does keep you fanboys going? Lost money?