Zero Punctuation: Injustice: Gods Among Us

Yahtzee Croshaw

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Sergey Sund said:
1) Yahtzee is basically not allowed to "look up" things for his reviews. He needs to judge the game on its own merrits, with no prior or additional knowledge. This is because you pay upwards $60 for a product, and not for that product PLUS a wikipedia article.
Er, no.

A competent reviewer is supposed to know the product before he reviews it. That means research and hard work. Yes, hard work. Which, gasp, implies that reviewers have to earn their pay through hard work, like normal people! Otherwise he looks ridiculous when people point out that he clearly doesn't know how the product works.

This is one of those times. Yahtzee has been criticized for this before. He reviews a product and complains about how a feature works or how a feature is missing, and then it's pointed out that the feature in question works fine or that the "missing" feature is in the pause menu where he didn't bother to check.

This shows incompetence on the reviewer's part. And no, it doesn't matter that he's "a critic" or "entertainer", if he wants his opinion taken with any grain of salt then he needs to do his homework.

2) The X-ray moves are still a problem. Even with all the out-of-this-world fights happening all around you, the X-ray thing must pull you out of immersion. It's not about how deep your immersion is - it's about anomalies within the game withing the DC universe.
Following comic physics and DC in-universe rules, all these heroes can exist, these fights can happen exactly as they are .... EXCEPT for the X-ray moves. Even Superman can't use his arm when the bones are completely fractured. Batman with a pulverised shoulder can't throw his Batarang, let alone lift his arm.
These things break the logic of comic physics and are therefore suspencion-of-disbelief-killers.
....I'm led to presume that you've never read a comic book before.

Because none of the finishers in question "break the logic of comic physics".

In fact, comic books so often break the logic of regular reality that they've created an abundance of absurd and funny tropes.

3) As for Yahtzee not understanding a game. Yes, that is always valid criticism. Consider, though, that Yahtzee has only one week to prepare this show, the column, the poem-bit with Jim Sterling, plus all the other stuff I don't know about. So, even in that week, he can't play the game as often and as thoroughly as he'd like.
Tough. He's getting paid for it. He needs to do his job right and turn in his reviews in the expected span of time, like every other person who works for a living. This is not unreasonable, it's how the world works.

The man is quite literally paid to sit on his butt and play video games. I don't want to hear about how he doesn't have a couple of minutes available to look up how the game works on Wikipedia. That is a ridiculous defense.
 

Mahoshonen

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Lunar Templar said:
lies....

every female superhero/villain can do that, its a mandatory skill
Hey, it may be the most common superpower [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MostCommonSuperPower], but it's still a superpower.
Oh no. you FOOL! Do you realize what you just opened?![/quote]

Please, Tvtropes is soooo 2008.
 

Izanagi009_v1legacy

Anime Nerds Unite
Apr 25, 2013
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Coreless said:
Izanagi009 said:
I can get what Yahtzee says with the game not appealing to fighters as much as it wants. While he did skip over the fact that the move list contains frame data which pros use to help make combos, the game feels broken in aspects. Having played it, multiple characters are broken such as Aquaman and Solomon Grundy with the background objects making possible to make 92% combos in videos found on the net and the specials and supers do feel like they grind the action to a halt.

At the risk of sounding like a 2D fighter elitist, lets compare the game to Persona 4, the Ultimate in Mayonaka Arena, or just Persona 4 Arena in America. The system is designed for high speed combat with one more cancels and bursts allowing for the player to either push forward with damage or turn the tide of battle, most specials having frames of vulnerability with no cutscenes so that they don't feel cheap or slow the action as the opponent can counter and punish and the ultimates are highly punishable and hard to pull off which makes pulling it off more rewarding than in Injustice when a lot of supers can easily be repeated in the same match and do not feel satisfying to pull off because of relative ease.

The game has the want to appeal to the professional scene but the background items, slower actions, and lack of gratification of pulling off supers and ultimates make it seem unlikely

edit: included mention of bursts and elaborated on high speed combat
Hate to break it to you but nobody, I mean nobody uses super moves outside of the story mode, meter is too important to waste on that when it comes to becoming a serious injustice player. This game requires serious zoning and player reads in order to win against top players.

"The game has the want to appeal to the professional scene but the background items, slower actions, and lack of gratification of pulling off supers and ultimates make it seem unlikely"

That sentence alone shows you don't anything about how this game plays at the top tier, background items are being used in tournaments already and are looked at just another weapon in a players arsenal. This game is not a capcom game so it shouldn't even be treated as such, super moves are not important to when it comes to knowing how to synergize your combos and traits. Tournament play is going to boil down to who knows their character and who can control the match through proper zoning and player skill.

This game is already well on it way to becoming another staple tournament game. Sure there are some classes that are dominating right now but that is as easy as a patch to change and one is coming soon its almost guaranteed as this point that the top tier characters wont remain that way.

If you want to see what top tournament play is going to look like, look no further then Team Spooky. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vk66M7SOF4
Alright, You proved me wrong, I guess my comparison point isn't the best one to use due to the fact that i'm using 2D fighters though i still have concerns about the balance of characters but that will pass i guess
 

Taunta

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CriticKitten said:
The man is quite literally paid to sit on his butt and play video games. I don't want to hear about how he doesn't have a couple of minutes available to look up how the game works on Wikipedia. That is a ridiculous defense.
But there's the question, how much prerequisite knowledge should the game require before it becomes a fault of the game? Granted, I have not played the game, but if the game has a tutorial and still fails to explain critical mechanics, then I would say that is the failure of the tutorial.

If you watch a movie and the movie doesn't explain a certain plot point, what it means, why it's important etc, then would you say that is the movie's fault, or your fault for not reading the Wikipedia synopsis beforehand?

(And he does quite a bit more than that and you know it.)

A competent reviewer is supposed to know the product before he reviews it. That means research and hard work. Yes, hard work. Which, gasp, implies that reviewers have to earn their pay through hard work, like normal people! Otherwise he looks ridiculous when people point out that he clearly doesn't know how the product works.
Competent by what standards?

Also, your argument sounds a bit dishonest because you are exaggerating. Not understanding the basic function of how to play a video game (which yes, should be prerequisite knowledge) is not the same as not understanding what a certain mechanic means.

Yahtzee goes into his products like most regular gamers would, i.e. blind. I don't know about you, perhaps you research every mechanic in a game before you play it, but I don't think it's realistic to expect that most people would not just pop the disc in and jump in.
 

head desk tricycle

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VortexCortex said:
Muspelheim said:
I'm pining for a game where you play as one of the civilians in the DC/Marvel universe.

You're just trying to get back home from work or down the shops to buy milk, but keep having to dodge the falling skyscrapers the supertwats keep knocking over in battle.

It'd be an interesting new take on the whole Stockholm Syndrome thing.
Unsurprisingly, this concept was explored already, but not in game form (to my knowledge).

In Darkwing Duck Episode 39 "Planet of the Capes" [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX9WtSwGadw] Darkwing finds himself on a planet where everyone is a superhero, thus making the most important person in the world Ordinary Guy [http://darkwingduck.wikia.com/wiki/Ordinary_Guy].

It's a common type of story for superhero parodies; there's also Bicycle Repair Man from Monty Python, and Plunger Man from The Tick.
 

FallenMessiah88

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Jan 8, 2010
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Not a big fan of fighting games, but I did like Mortal Kombat. It felt so deliciously old school. I don't really have any relationship with comic books, so I don't really see the appeal in this game. I do like the aesthetics though.
 

Hutzpah Chicken

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Yahtzee, I'm surprised you didn't try playing this game with other body parts that are not your hands. That might give some strange satisfaction to beat a game with nothing but your penis.
 

head desk tricycle

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Jesus Christ, not the 1985 Squadron Supreme story again. Some superheroes from an alternate Earth go nuts and try to create a utopia, heroes and villains switch sides, OMG so mature. Well maybe it was a good idea the first time, maybe even the second time when it was called Watchmen, but this is just ridiculous, this is like the millionth time DC has done this story.
 

Yahtzee Croshaw

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Taunta said:
But there's the question, how much prerequisite knowledge should the game require before it becomes a fault of the game? Granted, I have not played the game, but if the game has a tutorial and still fails to explain critical mechanics, then I would say that is the failure of the tutorial.
There was a point in time where a gamer would read the manual that came with the game and would be expected to know the controls of the game prior to playing.

Now, everything has to be "in the game" in the form of a Baby's First Tutorial which explains the simplest of commands to us like we're incapable of understand what a control pad or joystick is for.

Have we really fallen so far, that this simple reading, once expected of you as a gamer, is optional and actively discouraged before doing an official review of a game? Because I would hope that a professional who is paid to do reviews of games would make every effort to understand the way the game is supposed to work before he complains about it.

If you watch a movie and the movie doesn't explain a certain plot point, what it means, why it's important etc, then would you say that is the movie's fault, or your fault for not reading the Wikipedia synopsis beforehand?
Depends on the movie and plot point in question. I don't think a movie should dumb itself down for its audience, though, no. Some people didn't like Inception because it didn't spell every plot point out for them, does that make it a bad movie or does it make them a bad movie-goer for refusing to engage their brain during the entire run time of the film?

If you can't understand the movie, that's not necessarily the movie's fault.

Competent by what standards?

Also, your argument sounds a bit dishonest because you are exaggerating. Not understanding the basic function of how to play a video game (which yes, should be prerequisite knowledge) is not the same as not understanding what a certain mechanic means.
Knowing the controls for the game should be pre-requisite knowledge for giving a review of the game. Yahtzee has demonstrated that he didn't even do that, by complaining about the functionality of things that I, at a glance, could figure out just by watching other people play the game. "Clashes are QTEs", except they aren't. "Auras don't do anything", except they do. These are not complicated concepts, they are transparently simple, and yet he STILL completely misinterpreted their functionality. By those standards, yes, I'm calling this review incompetent.

You're welcome to disagree if you truly believe that a reviewer shouldn't know how to play a game before reviewing it, but I would hope that you realize that there's sort of a problem with that argument.

Yahtzee goes into his products like most regular gamers would, i.e. blind. I don't know about you, perhaps you research every mechanic in a game before you play it, but I don't think it's realistic to expect that most people would not just pop the disc in and jump in.
I tend to read the manual that comes with my game, yes. Because I like to know the game's controls in advance so I can spend more time playing the game and less time fiddling with massive tutorials that walk me through the controls at a snail's pace.

It's certainly a shame that other people don't, but I'm not about to cry them a river when they make outright false statements about how the game works. >_>
 

Arawn

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In the game spectrum fighting games comes up right below FPS when it comes to interest (For me of course). The story is kind of dodgy, but you're there for the action so most times you don't care. But there's fun to be had so no real complaints come up. When you think about it both share the same unrealistic reality system; The player can take a grenade to the face then regen health (and lost legs) back within seconds. The fighter can withstand reentry to earth's atmosphere and stand up afterwards. Logic doesn't apply, but the illusion of logic (and physics) that makes it all exciting. "OMG, he got hit by the Batmobile!" is the reason the move registers as cool. Anyway like the FPS people can compete against one another (multiplayer) so brings people together and all that.
 

Parakeettheprawn

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I'm a casual comic fan who a while back did some digging in DC to see what things I could learn about it and the only time I ever encountered Killer Frost was in the Batman Animated series (at least, I think she was in that, for like one episode...). I don't get her inclusion either. Ares also seemed out of place, tbh. And yes, Catwoman isn't very impressive, but if we're going to have a high point for her, I think we can do a hell of a lot better than Arkham City. She's crap in that by comparison to other things. I will totally agree that YES I wanted to see a deconstruction and consistent storyline none of the time-dimension-travel-bullshit. I wanted to see it all actually matter, instead it just becomes a convoluted mess.

Although I actually didn't dislike characters in the game, I actually found several characters quite interesting. Hell, I may get into Green Arrow comics after seeing him in both this and Young Justice -- I always expected a lot less than what I saw on screen with him in the game.
 

DarkhoIlow

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That last bit had me on the floor laughing.

Too bad I don't own any console(s), I would of given this game a try since I enjoy super hero movies, games and what not. marvel included obviously.
 

Yopaz

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Thunderous Cacophony said:
You could at least give Catwoman kudos for having finally saved up enough to buy clothes that actually zip up, as opposed to Arkham City where it seemed like a deep breath would push the game into Custer's Revenge territory.
When I played Arkham City I came up with the hypothesis that she had pulled off a successful heist, got enough money to get a boob job then afterwards realizing her suit didn't fit and that she couldn't afford the extra piece of latex to make her suit fit anymore.

OT: Great review, the circus seal comment really cracked me up. I'm not sure about this game, it looks fun, but I'm not that into fighting games. I might get it when the price comes down a little.
 

Vrach

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Wow, lots of hate. Personally, I'm having a bundle of fun with the game, just sad that they didn't include the 2vs2 tag teams as it would be fun to finally play 2vs2 online (MK9's netcode was absolute shit) and play tag arcade.

Not sure why people hate super moves. Yeah, they take a while, my friend went "wow, they're a bit longer than the MK9 ones, might get sick of them" when he first played, but I think I'm 100 hours into the game and still don't mind them and neither does he. I get you though, my brother hates them too. But piss breaks? I can't even take a drag of smoke...

The gameplay's not quite the same as MK9 and that's what I love about it. When I heard of the game, I figured it'd be a reskin of MK9 and hell, I'd be fine with that too considering I loved MK9 and just wanted more of it, but it does quite a bit of things differently. No more block button, have to directionally block (back or duck), character powers, bounce attacks, transitions etc... there's quite a few things different. The fighting itself is different too, felt weird as hell to me at start, coming out of MK9, feels a bit more like Street Fighter, what little I played of it. There's also the reversal attacks, which I don't think existed in MK9, but could be I just haven't figured out they were there back then.

Anyway, I find the game a bundle of fun, the multiplayer's great (no lag unless you're playing with someone really far away) and if it had 2vs2, it'd honestly be the best fighter ever made imo.
 

WolvenSpectre

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OK, I won't send you an email.

1) Killer Frost was a boring plain female scientist that got in the typical comic book lab/experiment mishap. Came out with ice based powers and a hankering for sucking out body heat as hers is frigidly cold as she is now a wild literal femme fatale. Think hot sexy female that is a cross of Poison Ivy and Mr. Freeze but super powers instead of gadgets.

2) Howard the Duck or Iron Duck????


:p
 

Yahtzee Croshaw

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Caramel Frappe said:
What turned me away from buying this game actually (saving up to get it) was the fact the alternative universe is introduced. Honestly wished that the developers stuck to their guns and kept Superman evil or say, events mattered. It's pretty much a way to show what happens but say, "Oh, it was all irrelevant thus never happened! Thanks for playing and working through the game though!". .. Mmh.
Um. But that's not the devs' call to make, it's DC's, because DC owns the properties on all of the characters in this game.

Arkham Asylum and Arkham City are both Elseworlds stories, too, at best....or at worst, they're total non-canon that is completely ignored outside of their own little video game "world". Does that make them bad games that are not worth your money either?

People need to understand two things:
1) DC is unwilling to let a video game dictate their comic book/movie canon.
2) Every single time canon has changed in the Marvel or DC universes, the fans have pissed themselves in rage.

DC is not exactly encouraged to change the status quo regularly when their fans refuse to change the status quo. And video game developers can't change the status quo if the comic book authors don't want to. Don't blame the devs, place blame where it belongs: superhero comic book fans and their refusal to accept change and evolution of storylines.

Besides, a lot of the Elseworlds stories end up way better than the stories in the regular universe anyways, because the writers have the freedom to go crazy and explore a larger array of new concepts and story ideas. The regular universe is pretty firmly established with character traits mostly set in stone, and so doesn't get radically shaken up on a regular basis....which in turn leads to stale, repetitive content (thus why the universes keep getting rebooted). >_>
 

Winnosh

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Been reading comics for decades and never got people's problem with AUs and Elseworlds tales. Part of the point of comics are that Everything is an Elseworlds tale and nothing is more or less valid than another.

Hell you go into readin DC comics knowing that eventually the universe you are reading about will one day end and that you'll be reading about another one eventually once that story ends.

Also you don't go into a fighting game looking for a story, it's a welcome and well done suprise.

Not a big fan of the character models but they work very well in motion and the characters are very different in mechanics promoting learning new characters.

The screen hazards add so much to the combat with mobility and denial.