Zero Punctuation: Left 4 Dead 2 & New Super Mario Bros Wii

[randomrob]

Why do the first two people to comment on a Zero Punctuation always get put on probation? Good review btw. Oh and 'Matzy' I've yet to find a puzzler as addictive as Tetris or an RPG as replayable as Pokemon or KOTOR. Immersion and fun is what matters with a game not age or technical specifications.

 

[funguy2121]

No really, straw man. And immature at best.
Since when did I say that only Nintendo were unoriginal? I didn't. I criticised Super Marios Bros Wii for not being original.
Rebel? What are you on about? Plus clearly you have never seen Clerks 1 & 2, or the critically acclaimed Chasing Amy. How about you actually watch said films rather than trying to claim a successful director is a failure.
Because I did? Erm, what did I apparently do? How about less personal attacks like an immature, insecure child, and a more constructive, adult argument?
Why are you bringing up Zelda or Metroid? How does 2D->3D make something radical? Zelda certainly hasn't done anything radical since Ocarina of Time. And how was 2D Mario a good idea? Saying it just is means nothing.
Closet chubby chaser? I go to the gym 3 times a week and live by the ideal that fat people are pretty much a disgrace to humanity, and a symbol of human decadence. And I would proudly say that to her face as I find her offensive on many different levels. Grow the f**k up, your argument just consisted of personal attacks, hollow statements and you digressing.

Why don't you read it again? You're arguing with me but you're not arguing with what I'm saying. I'm not going to repeat myself. You can read it again if you want to know what you're actually debating. But you won't, because you're trolling. That's why you included the comment that fat people are a disgrace, without making any exceptions for people who are overweight because of thyroid deficiencies or genetics.

It's pointless to try and debate you, because you already know everything and have nothing to learn for yourself. So I'll just watch you try to tear apart everyone else's arguments without actually reading them.

 

[spoonybardol]

What would you then define as a gamer? I define it as someone who has played a vast majority of games and can objectively

That right there is the problem here, that very last word. We can't objectively say which games are better or more fun as easily as one might think.

Gaming itself is a form of leisure, of fun, Yahtzee himself says this. Fun, though, is subjective, not objective. What one finds fun someone else might find boring. The person who finds that one thing fun isn't wrong, nor is the one who finds it boring. There's never any accounting for taste.

We can analyze production values and innovation till the cows come home, but the only thing that matters in the end is that a game is fun. Gaming, by definition, can never die as long as the games being made are enjoyed by someone.

The line in the sand argument of hardcore vs casual is an inherently ridiculous waste of time, and is something that should be wiped off the face of the internet.

2D platformers aren't for everyone. This doesn't mean that they themselves should be abandoned, nor does it mean that the people who don't enjoy them are wrong. Probably the biggest fallacy here is the assumption that they're obsolete because we having 3D platformers. One is not superior to the other, 3D is not inherently better because it's one number higher, they're just two different styles of gaming.

New Super Mario Bros Wii is not the same game as SMB3 or SMW. Just like SMB3 is not the same game as SMB. If you look at it superficially, you might be able to make that claim. But just playing it for any length of time will let any reasonable person see the difference. Aside from the obvious diffrences in levels, power ups, and multiplayer, even the physics are different. Jumping physics is slightly floatier this time around, shaking the Wiimote (as gimmicky as that might be) gives Mario a slight bit of extra air and really skilled players can make excellent use of that feature to do things unskilled players can't. Kinda like an innovation, y'know? This is all besides the various interactive layers in the levels that even the SNES wouldn't have been able to pull off, or the levels that use real sources of lighting in pitch-black caves giving you an extra bit of strategy when using the fire flower.

Most importantly, NSMBWii is a bridging game. There are countless reports of hardened non-gamers jumping in with this game. It levels the playing field in a way that doesn't make the skilled gamer feel bored, or the unskilled feel overwhelmed. Players can help one another out, or if they're so inclined make each other's lives hell. Frankly, that's fun in its own way too.

Innovation doesn't just come with new gameplay concepts. NSMBWii bridges a rather wide gap between gamers and non-gamers fairly easily for anyone that will give it an honest shake. That itself is also an innovation worth noting. Gaming is not something that should be segregated and made inaccessible due to the fear of catering to casuals. Gaming is supposed to be a fun activity, and it is only benefited by bringing more people on board. NSMBWii facilitates that far better than any other so-called 'dumbed down' game prior to it.

I've been, and remain, a fan of Yahtzee since the beginning. But this review was a disappointment. I understand his grievances with Nintendo, though I don't agree with all of them, he has always in the past given them at least the smallest bit of recognition for what they have done. None of that was in this video. It's possible this is due to him sharing it with another game, and thus not having the time to really delve deeply into one or the other, and he just made the unfortunate decision to do nothing but gripe instead of giving a fairer review. Here he did nothing but spout hate and ignorance of the game he was reviewing. I know he's an entertainer first, but this review really hurt his credibility in my eyes.

The mainstream isn't always right, but it isn't always wrong either. And sometimes, just sometimes, when someone flies in the face of what's popular he might not be a visionary or a rebel. He might just be wrong.

 

[Balthassar]

So much blood and gore Yahtzee is missing out on, I have my special little gore slider set to maximum.

 

[funguy2121]

snip.

Toss around your random insults and self-contradicting claims all you want, Mr. Cliche man. You're obviously just looking for a fight, and you sure seem to think you'll get it by stereotyping millions of people as mindless corporate lackeys based upon one inexpensive purchase, swapping arguments, and tempting people to repeat themselves. I smell a stealth troll. How many people are you going to insult on here? As a person who does not already have the world figured out, I envy you.

 

[funguy2121]

I suppose the debate is wrapped, then. Spoonbardol, better articulated than I possibly could have stated it myself.

In one corner, we have a group of people who have played the game and say, "meh, I'm done with Mario," and in another, we have a group of people who (aside from DS owners) have been starved for a brand-new 2D Mario, hopefully one with enough to provide some "newness" to go along with the nostalgia, who cheer Mario's triumphant (in our opinion) return to glorious 2D, complete with 4-player multi and a rather steep challenge.

And in yet another corner we have people who have not even played the game who just want to tell everyone how stupid they are for disagreeing with them, or for actually being informed, people who embody the definition of the word troll by attacking numerous people at once and cursing at them, blanketing people with stereotypes and, when identified as a troll, spout the word right back in the vein of one Paul Ruebens.

MattzzeeEEy, I know I am but I know you are but what am I?

Edit: Sorry. I didn't realize you'd played the Amiga. Tell us the gospel, then...

 

[funguy2121]

You do realize this is a very adolescent way of bullying someone, right? (looks up Maztee's age). Oh.

I suggest you look at earlier posts from myself and others. I've already pointed you in some specific directions, but because you're being dishonest about your real intentions, that will not satisfy you. You believe that if you suggest I'm something negative if I don't do X, then you can cause me to do X, and you'll celebrate the control over me that you imagine this gives you.

But I'm not interested in repeating myself over and over again to a person who lacks a fundamental understanding of anything that anyone has stated on this thread. I could define "troll" once more for you, but you obviously won't get it and anyone with half a brain can read the last page, or the one before it, and clearly see that word epitomized.

Now get on with the task of torpedoing this thread with your troll tactics.

 

[funguy2121]

I'm sorry, but your immature way of misspelling Mazty is pathetic, and just shows the kind of mentality I'm having to deal with.
You specifically said another 2D Mario "is a great idea". I asked why, to which you then have not stopped screaming "TROLL".
Seriously, grow up as you seem to have the inability to discuss the topic at hand in any mature sense.

But I already said I'm not going to repeat mysel...dammit, troll, ya got me!

One more time, oh sage-like one: scroll up and read. It's in there. Your long list of questions such as "why is a 2D mario a good idea," "why is a 2D mario a good idea," and "why is a 2D mario a good idea?" have already been answered. Or you can read a review of the game if you really want the answer.

But you don't want an answer, you just want everyone on this thread to know how much smarter than them you are. Hey, congratulations on being allowed entry into bars!

 

[Ienjoygames]

...So, how am I killing the industry as you claimed before?

Hmm, maybe I was too hard on you before, but no. The way you look on the gaming industry, that old games are bad no matter what etc etc that's bad.

What would you then define as a gamer?

Read through spoonybardol post carefully.

So have a lot of my friends.

I don't give a rat's ass about them. They don't represent the whole gaming world (Looks like you think they are)

SMB Wii is just showing how a company can remake a game from over a decade ago, with next to no improvements and it'll still sell buy the truck load.

No improvements have been made? Well, pure bullshit, and you know it. Not going to write more here.

...how are old games fun when they generally look like sh*t, handle like sh*t, and if the could, they would smell of sh*t? Please find me an old game which is really good IN COMPARISON to modern games.

*sigh* Well you mean in comparison graphicwise? I'd say it depends on, from a critic view then yes, from a personal view WELL that depends on what types of graphics you like. Some like 3D gfx more than 2D others like 2D more. I like 'em both.

Like I've mentioned several times, good games are still good games no matter what.
Find you an old game? That's a piece of cake of course, there are tons of old games that are good. I can give you Super Mario Land, there you go. I'd play Super Mario Land over most new games that are released at this date, not Uncharted 2 perhaps, but definitely over Halo 3. If games would smell then Super Mario Land would smell like a plate of strawberries.

And again, there are tons of good games.

And with your logic you are saying that games have not evolved/improved since their first creation

I never said that.

if old good games are still good...You sir are full of sh*t. Take something like Driver. Was a great game, now it looks like crap, sounds like it, and handles like it. Why? Because the industry has improved since the days of the PS1.

Same with movies. Old movies are still good movies, even without special effects.

I've never played Driver, so I can't say anything about that game. Doubt you're right about that though.

What would you then define as a gamer? I define it as someone who has played a vast majority of games and can objectively

[Wall of text.]

Amen bro. Amen.

 

[Olpenmark]

Yahtzee (Most likely spelled wrong. But what the hell?) I considered buying L4D2 and I heard about the new zombies, but never really bother to go on Youtube to see what new ones had comes. So I think this review could´ve been better if you explained what new zombies that had been added.
Just a suggestion: Make a small one minute movie where you talk about the new zombies.

 

[confernal]

Bowser would because he breathes fire.

 

[Ienjoygames]

Spoony doesn't actually say what a gamer is.

Read his post again then.

Yes games should be fun, but I remain by the idea that a reason why people enjoy games like SMB Wii etc is because they haven't played many other games.

I see, keep that idea and people will laugh at you.
I've played tons of games and love NSMB Wii, and still enjoy other titles like Megaman I, Megaman II or Megaman III, Super Mario Land, Final Fantasy, Tetris, Legend of Zelda: A link to the past, Diablo, Starcraft (I can continue with that list but I won't, point proven). Or modern titles like Uncharted 2, Little Big Planet, God of War, Fallout 3, Gears of War, Halo and so on and so on. What do these games have in common? Simple, they're good games.

If you gave a 1980's metro to someone who has no idea about cars, and has never driven one before, they would think it's great. To someone who has driven many cars, they'd say it's dire.

Please don't put cars into this discussion.
Some ppl like older cars, others don't.

The improvements are tiny. Slightly changed physics? Wow, mindblast. Basically, is there 15 years worth of changes on screen? I don't think there is.

I think there is.

Good games from the past are not good games anymore. Sorry, that thought is nothing but absurd. They were good for the time, but as I said, look at games like Driver, GT1 etc. They now look abysmal and handle like crap.

Oh my god, what is it you don't understand?
Good games are still good. They don't, mysteriously, turn into bad games just because the time goes on.

If good games from the past are still good, then why did consoles become more powerful etc if they could just churn out the same games if the standard of what constitutes good has never risen?

Because of greater technology. But that doesn't change the fact that good old games are still good (I don't know how many times I have to mention that). If games are fun, they're good. That's why many people still play old games and, at the same time, play new modern titles.

Old movies are still good movies? Oh yeah because the standard of acting in Ben Hur is stunning....Again that's nonsense. From about the 80's onwards, the standards of films has been improving. Not to say all the old ones are bad, but games and films are very different, as one is based on people (Script, acting etc) and another is based on technology.

But still, movies are entertaining, the same as games are made for entertaining.
A good movie is enjoyable to watch, and a good/fun game is enjoyable to play.
All though it differ from person to person, an old movie is still good but clearly made for a different audience.

And go, play Driver. Go play MGS1, go play any old game and try and tell me they handle & look just fine compared to modern day games.

No, I will not go and play Driver. I even had Tetris on my calculator, still fun. No HDTV there.
I'm playing The Legend of Zelda: Ocrina of Time at the moment, and enjoy every second of it.
Why the heck should I compare them? You still don't get it do you? Why should I compare them? I already told you that I'd play Super Mario World a hundred times over, for example, Halo 3. Why? Because I enjoy Super Mario World more than Halo 3. Jesus Christ. And yes, The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time looks god awful in comparison to Uncharted 2, but it's still a fun game. I enjoy both Uncharted 2 and Zelda OOT.

I don't get your worship for Spoony.

"Worship" might be a little bit overkill, but he made a good, worth of reading post.

His reply is ambiguous at best. A "bridging" game? What the hell? "Countless reports"? It reads like War-time propaganda.

Why? Take that with him, not me.

I remain in the idea that games like this are killing the industry and people are worship it because they haven't played many modern games whatsoever and that seems to be the case.

Oh please...
Seems to be the case? How can you know that? No one can.
Don't overuse the word "worship" please. Just because people find a game fun and enjoyable to play doesn't mean they worship it.