Zero Punctuation: Left 4 Dead 2 & New Super Mario Bros Wii

[funguy2121]

snip snip troll flame and snip

1-When your argument failed, you then re-described your argument as a "loose" one (based upon nothing) and declared it a stupid comparison, only after, of course, you conveniently forgot that you went to that comparison in the first place and called me stupid for following you there. I never stated anything about comparing a movie to a game. I was talking about analogies and how, according to you, in both mediums old=shit, new=your wife is taking lapdance lessons. And while I'm very verbose, I cannot tell you how I "right" so much.
2-...ya know what, I'm ready to drop the format.

I do not have to explain to you why I like something that you lack a fundamental understanding of. For me to even effectively debate you, you have to explain why you think it sucks. I'm not the first person on here to point out that you don't seem to even have seen footage of the game, let alone played it. You're prejudging, and whether it's based on a dogged fanboy loyalty to certain brands or a high-and-mighty elitism borne of your identification with certain snooty critics (you did quote Yatzee verbatim without crediting the author a few minutes ago, after all - thief), the fact remains that you are passionately, emotionally arguing about the value of a certain video game. This is where I draw the distinction between geek and nerd. Geeks may like brainy stuff, but nerds will argue over which Pokemon game was truer to the canon. See the difference? I would never, ever tell anyone how friggin' worthless they were because of their opinion of a Mario game. I'm not sure why you've chosen to do exactly that a number of times, BUT I DIGRESS.

Your arguments are based upon loosely connected and constantly shifting points. There is no consistency, except that your tastes do not include Mario. Once again, this is subjective.

 

[funguy2121]

Actually I had the decency to say that my initial comparison of films and games may have looked okay on the outset, but after looking at it further, it was pretty retarded of myself.
Do you know who else uses the argument "I don't have to defend my beliefs, prove why they are wrong"? The Flat Earth Society, I sh*t you not. In otherwords, it's a weak excuse for someone who can't actually explain what they think. Like all this arguing and name calling could have been stopped if you had just said "Actually I like SMB Wii because of "X" & "Y", and I think it is definitely worth a purchase, and shows 15 years worth of industry improvements from one of the largest gaming companies because of "Z"". I cannot figure out "X", "Y" & "Z", hence why I think the game's a bad joke. Of course if someone could say what they were, then wonderful, I'd be happy to change my view of the game. But no, instead there comes the usual plethora of excuses such as "It's a bridging game", "It's good because it's like a good game" (Not in the least ambiguous) etc. For such an apparently great game, why are people finding it so hard to word/write logical reasons for why it's so great?
As for Geeks vs Nerds. The reason I do this is because I enjoy games. THOUGH I HAVE NOTICED IN THIS GENERATION A MASSIVE LACK OF QUALITY and it's down to you, joe average gamer, who doesn't insist on quality, but goes "It'll do" and then warps that to "BEST GAME EVAR!". I'm, calling it now but at the rate that gamers are swallowing up average at best games by the truck load, console gaming will be lucky to be alive in 2 generations. Plus, if I'm going to end up in a managerial position overlooking joe average, I'd like to try and think they can be talked into rational thinking, but alas, I don't think so.
Plus I base my opinion of you on the way you write, the content of what you write, and your avatar. Usually I get judgements of people spot on as it is, can't see why a nice, respectable person would write like a douche and vice-versa.

Okay puppet master, I will dance on your strings. Why do I think the new Mario was a good idea, once again? Because people have been starving for old school 2D Mario since the release of SMWorld over 15 years ago. There hasn't been a 2D side-scrolling platformer since then, and along comes a game that you haven't played that's very challenging and also a fun 4-player experience. This comes from a person who has all the previous Marios on his virtual console; it was a fun trip down memory lane but, with no surprises, it wasn't nearly as fun as the first time. So now I'm offered a brand new experience. The levels are not identical to any previous Mario game, as you have claimed, and since you love forcing me to repeat myself, this is a very challenging game. Now, as you have represented yourself as a heroic, noble sage I will take you up on your word and you must now magically begin to agree with me, as you have stated you would.

Freedom of speech goes both ways, btw. No one is forcing me to defend my beliefs to you and see, that's a damned good thing for you since you believe quality is a perishable commodity. You can compare me to the Flat Earth Society, I can compare you to the people who think Global Warming is a myth or the people who don't understand subjectivity or the art of filmmaking/game-making but in the end, it's a useless gesture. I feel no need whatsoever to prove that Mario shows 15 years worth of improvements (stop using Yatzee arguments and come up with your own please, thief). You obviously missed the point Nintendo was making although they've made it several times before. And no, I will not explain what that point is, so you better ready that argument that I lack the ability to explain it...

Oh, plethora. Plethora, cornucopia, peccadillo. I've hated these words since the first time I heard them. Who was the dumb blonde on The View before they brought in the arch-conservative, the one the SNL folks always made fun of for being a bimbo? She played herself in a sketch where she got to use a bunch of big words to make her appear as a smart, tough young woman, and plethora and peccadillo were amongst the words that made me wince. The end result? She looked stupid.

Y'know back there where I said that your arguments were constantly shifting? Thanks for proving my point. I don't know how to bold-face in HTML so I'll do the all-caps treatment for ya.

Finally, Mr. Herman, you yourself have still yet to qualify how you think that quality atrophies over time, or how the Wii or Nintendo or their mascots are "destroying" gaming. A point I was trying to make before you provided so much fun trying to compare me to a toddler was that the PSOne was a very inept system with an overall poor catalogue of games but a few gems that widened the overall audience of gaming, which made the industry more mainstream and brought in a lot of money, which brought in a lot more R&D and a lot more developers and publishers...end result: it vastly improved gaming. Sound familiar? It's called the Wii.
And one last question for you. How is it that you view Nintendo as this greedy corporation that needs to be stopped (I agree with the first part), when their one of their competitors makes the worst computer operating systems imaginable and fixes their problems with shit advertising, and the other competitor gave you and me and everyone else the finger with an initial $700 price tag?

 

[Jimbo1212]

Actually I had the decency to say that my initial comparison of films and games may have looked okay on the outset, but after looking at it further, it was pretty retarded of myself.
Do you know who else uses the argument "I don't have to defend my beliefs, prove why they are wrong"? The Flat Earth Society, I sh*t you not. In otherwords, it's a weak excuse for someone who can't actually explain what they think. Like all this arguing and name calling could have been stopped if you had just said "Actually I like SMB Wii because of "X" & "Y", and I think it is definitely worth a purchase, and shows 15 years worth of industry improvements from one of the largest gaming companies because of "Z"". I cannot figure out "X", "Y" & "Z", hence why I think the game's a bad joke. Of course if someone could say what they were, then wonderful, I'd be happy to change my view of the game. But no, instead there comes the usual plethora of excuses such as "It's a bridging game", "It's good because it's like a good game" (Not in the least ambiguous) etc. For such an apparently great game, why are people finding it so hard to word/write logical reasons for why it's so great?
As for Geeks vs Nerds. The reason I do this is because I enjoy games. THOUGH I HAVE NOTICED IN THIS GENERATION A MASSIVE LACK OF QUALITY and it's down to you, joe average gamer, who doesn't insist on quality, but goes "It'll do" and then warps that to "BEST GAME EVAR!". I'm, calling it now but at the rate that gamers are swallowing up average at best games by the truck load, console gaming will be lucky to be alive in 2 generations. Plus, if I'm going to end up in a managerial position overlooking joe average, I'd like to try and think they can be talked into rational thinking, but alas, I don't think so.
Plus I base my opinion of you on the way you write, the content of what you write, and your avatar. Usually I get judgements of people spot on as it is, can't see why a nice, respectable person would write like a douche and vice-versa.

Okay puppet master, I will dance on your strings. Why do I think the new Mario was a good idea, once again? Because people have been starving for old school 2D Mario since the release of SMWorld over 15 years ago. There hasn't been a 2D side-scrolling platformer since then, and along comes a game that you haven't played that's very challenging and also a fun 4-player experience. This comes from a person who has all the previous Marios on his virtual console; it was a fun trip down memory lane but, with no surprises, it wasn't nearly as fun as the first time. So now I'm offered a brand new experience. The levels are not identical to any previous Mario game, as you have claimed, and since you love forcing me to repeat myself, this is a very challenging game. Now, as you have represented yourself as a heroic, noble sage I will take you up on your word and you must now magically begin to agree with me, as you have stated you would.

Freedom of speech goes both ways, btw. No one is forcing me to defend my beliefs to you and see, that's a damned good thing for you since you believe quality is a perishable commodity. You can compare me to the Flat Earth Society, I can compare you to the people who think Global Warming is a myth or the people who don't understand subjectivity or the art of filmmaking/game-making but in the end, it's a useless gesture. I feel no need whatsoever to prove that Mario shows 15 years worth of improvements (stop using Yatzee arguments and come up with your own please, thief). You obviously missed the point Nintendo was making although they've made it several times before. And no, I will not explain what that point is, so you better ready that argument that I lack the ability to explain it...

Oh, plethora. Plethora, cornucopia, peccadillo. I've hated these words since the first time I heard them. Who was the dumb blonde on The View before they brought in the arch-conservative, the one the SNL folks always made fun of for being a bimbo? She played herself in a sketch where she got to use a bunch of big words to make her appear as a smart, tough young woman, and plethora and peccadillo were amongst the words that made me wince. The end result? She looked stupid.

Y'know back there where I said that your arguments were constantly shifting? Thanks for proving my point. I don't know how to bold-face in HTML so I'll do the all-caps treatment for ya.

Finally, Mr. Herman, you yourself have still yet to qualify how you think that quality atrophies over time, or how the Wii or Nintendo or their mascots are "destroying" gaming. A point I was trying to make before you provided so much fun trying to compare me to a toddler was that the PSOne was a very inept system with an overall poor catalogue of games but a few gems that widened the overall audience of gaming, which made the industry more mainstream and brought in a lot of money, which brought in a lot more R&D and a lot more developers and publishers...end result: it vastly improved gaming. Sound familiar? It's called the Wii.
And one last question for you. How is it that you view Nintendo as this greedy corporation that needs to be stopped (I agree with the first part), when their one of their competitors makes the worst computer operating systems imaginable and fixes their problems with shit advertising, and the other competitor gave you and me and everyone else the finger with an initial $700 price tag?

I can't really see any debate about this one as its so obvious.
Within the first paragraph you practically admitted your a fan boy who's revelling in a distant time when 2D was good, you were happy, and nieve - as we all are when we're young.

At the end of the day 2D Mario is dated.
Why?
Because it's bad.
That is why things date. If this was not the case then why is there not a cascade of 2D linear games for sale at £35? Because no other company can rely on its fan boys as much as Nintendo.

 

[funguy2121]

I can't really see any debate about this one as its so obvious.
Within the first paragraph you practically admitted your a fan boy who's revelling in a distant time when 2D was good, you were happy, and nieve - as we all are when we're young.

At the end of the day 2D Mario is dated.
Why?
Because it's bad.
That is why things date. If this was not the case then why is there not a cascade of 2D linear games for sale at £35? Because no other company can rely on its fan boys as much as Nintendo.

I don't think I would define fanboy the way that you do. A fanboy is, to me, a person who thinks that their favorite game company/director/anime company can do no wrong. I'm certainly disappointed with a lot of choices that Nintendo has made recently, but as a 29 year old man with a career, social life and literary and musical pursuits, the Wii with its precious few good releases suits me just fine. I do clearly define myself as a lover of retro gaming; the most recent thread I started was about remaking the 8-bit classic Master Blaster.

I can't stand when someone is not willing to see the flaws in the games they love. I, personally, love many games in spite of their imperfections. If you read several pages back, I was debating both extreme sides of this argument with two people on opposite ends of the spectrum. One had the same stance that you and Mazty share, that Mario games are somehow inherently bad simply because the concept is dated, and another took me to task for acknowledging that Nintendo's inclusion of 2 palette-swap Toads was lazy. If you believe that age has anything to do with the quality of a game, then read a few posts up.

This is Nintendo nostalgia b/c Nintendo is the only surviving company (aside from Sega) from the 2D period. Microsoft and Sony got into the game as pseudo-3D was transitioning into 3D, so they're not exactly overflowing with side-scrolling titles to remake.

I'll tell you exactly what I told Mazty: I like something that you don't. It is not incumbent upon me to defend it. If you think it's inherently bad, the burden falls upon you to explain what's wrong with it. Have you played the game?


Edit: Profile check. Did you really have to bring your buddy in here to back you up, Mazty? I was going to tell TBInfidel to read more than one post so he could see your contradictions. It also appears you edited your last post. Where are the barbs about my personality based on my avatar being a bigg'un? I guess you took back the fat hate when you realized Kevin Smith is obese.

 

[funguy2121]

Maz, B4 I reply to this, why did you use your alternate profile and pretend to be someone else? Or is TBInfidel your twin brother. You both were born on December 22, 1988.

snip

 

[funguy2121]

snipped for everyone's sake

You really don't listen, do ya? Did you read more than 20 words?

Reread the first paragraph of what you just posted and think about the inconsistency of your arguments.

You obviously have it in for Nintendo, which is cool; they're a greedy corporation and I don't begrudge you hating on them. They can handle it. Apparently, Sony and Microsoft can't. If I tell you that you win, will you press play on the youtube link and follow its instructions? I guess I have to spell it out for you, since my cavespeak translates poorly into your academic language: I am not aware of anyone who uses Linux on their home computer. I was referring to using a PC vs. using a Mac. Why don't you start a thread that says "vista rules," if it's so great? Also, I don't know if you know this but the average gamer (that's me!) doesn't buy a video game system to buy an overrated, overpriced DVD format that will possibly go the way of the beta max very soon. Aw, shit, now I'm gonna have to explain beta max!

You win!

But seriously, why did you bring an alterego in here with your exact same birthdate, location and join-date to chastise me? "Oh no, now fake people are attacking me too!" I've had fun with this little spat but as you can see, the thread is now torpedo'd. Congratulations. See, it stops being fun for everyone else after a while. I'm gonna tell you something that I don't just tell anyone.

I'm not always right.

Now, here comes the hard part, and make sure to tell your alter this as well:

Neither are you.

One day soon, you will realize this. You'll have the ability to look back on the you from a few years prior, as I do, as anyone of character does, and say "God, what was I thinking? I was such an idiot!" You will realize how pathetic it is to curse several people out on the internet because they like a game that predates your birth.

Flame on, both of you. I'm done talkin' to ya.

 

[Ienjoygames]

funguy2121 don't keep feeding him. It's pointless.

 

[Wrds]

I like L4D2. =D

 

[Jimbo1212]

I can't really see any debate about this one as its so obvious.
Within the first paragraph you practically admitted your a fan boy who's revelling in a distant time when 2D was good, you were happy, and nieve - as we all are when we're young.

At the end of the day 2D Mario is dated.
Why?
Because it's bad.
That is why things date. If this was not the case then why is there not a cascade of 2D linear games for sale at £35? Because no other company can rely on its fan boys as much as Nintendo.

I don't think I would define fanboy the way that you do. A fanboy is, to me, a person who thinks that their favorite game company/director/anime company can do no wrong. I'm certainly disappointed with a lot of choices that Nintendo has made recently, but as a 29 year old man with a career, social life and literary and musical pursuits, the Wii with its precious few good releases suits me just fine. I do clearly define myself as a lover of retro gaming; the most recent thread I started was about remaking the 8-bit classic Master Blaster.

I can't stand when someone is not willing to see the flaws in the games they love. I, personally, love many games in spite of their imperfections. If you read several pages back, I was debating both extreme sides of this argument with two people on opposite ends of the spectrum. One had the same stance that you and Mazty share, that Mario games are somehow inherently bad simply because the concept is dated, and another took me to task for acknowledging that Nintendo's inclusion of 2 palette-swap Toads was lazy. If you believe that age has anything to do with the quality of a game, then read a few posts up.

This is Nintendo nostalgia b/c Nintendo is the only surviving company (aside from Sega) from the 2D period. Microsoft and Sony got into the game as pseudo-3D was transitioning into 3D, so they're not exactly overflowing with side-scrolling titles to remake.

I'll tell you exactly what I told Mazty: I like something that you don't. It is not incumbent upon me to defend it. If you think it's inherently bad, the burden falls upon you to explain what's wrong with it. Have you played the game?


Edit: Profile check. Did you really have to bring your buddy in here to back you up, Mazty? I was going to tell TBInfidel to read more than one post so he could see your contradictions. It also appears you edited your last post. Where are the barbs about my personality based on my avatar being a bigg'un? I guess you took back the fat hate when you realized Kevin Smith is obese.

You make a fair point about retro gaming and that you are a retro gamer, hence why you like Mario and similar old generation style of games.

However, as I mentioned in my previous post, this style is dated. A dated style is a bad style. That's what progress is, otherwise why did 2D go away?
If you enjoy it fair enough, BUT you can't really defend it as being a retro gamer your opinion will be bias and your a very small minority of people, backing up my point that such a similar remake is aimed at the fan boys or retro gamers (Both enjoying games off nostalgia from the past or raging patriotism).
A good example of this is cars. A car from the 1960's is flat out bad. Its slow, unsafe, uncomfortable, and unreliable. The only reason a person would enjoy a car which is bad is not because of what the car IS, but what it WAS. This could be what it stood for, whether that's happy memories or engineering triumph back in that time. Regardless, the car is still bad.

So by all means go and enjoy the game. However do take into account that your opinion is quite possibly biased and that many people will not agree for good and possibly more valid reasons for why the game is bad.

N.B I have played the original Mario's and briefly the new one. Its very much the same and for some reason, what amused me as a 8 year old does not any more.
Also, Mazty linked me this thread as its an interesting discussion. If you feel insecure about my posts and my opinion, then ill remind you that its the internet and no one can hurt you from behind a keyboard.

 

[funguy2121]

funguy2121 don't keep feeding him. It's pointless.

But it's so damned tempting!

 

[DrDeath3191]

funguy2121 don't keep feeding him. It's pointless.

Wait. I asked you why you have the notion that good old games are always good, regardless of expectations from games increasing time due to innovation and technology, to which your reply was "Because of higher expectations". Surely then that means the overall quality of games is better. Then, logically, if quality is always improving, now that you have foresight, surely the "good old games" aren't good because they are buggy, look bad, and other games do their genre better? It's either that or modern games in your world are all "F**KING AMAZING!" For example you can't say any modern FPS sucks, becuase they all work as FPS' better than doom as they look better, handle better and do the job better (Up, down, left & right) But somehow I think you're part of the mindset whose views won't change regardless of the logic thrown your way, because the universe may implode or something.

I think he was talking about technical expectations, not necessarily enjoyment when he said that. The old games are still enjoyable.

 

[jalee]

Okay, how about this for a reason NSMB Wii is a good game: IT'S FUN

Forget innovation, forget challenge (even though it gets pretty damn challenging in the later stages), forget the nostalgia factor. It's just a damn fun game! Why do we need to judge on innovation alone? Can't we have room for both innovation AND the familiar?

And as for old games, yes it's true, some games age terribly (example: Driver, because that's the only game Mazty can seem to talk about), but some withstand the test of time very well (example: Super Metroid, Mega Man 2, Final Fantasy Tactics). They still control well and are very fun to play! It's foolish to make a blanket statement like "Good games from the past are not good games anymore". Not even Yahtzee would say something like that.

 

[DrDeath3191]

Okay, how about this for a reason NSMB Wii is a good game: IT'S FUN

Forget innovation, forget challenge (even though it gets pretty damn challenging in the later stages), forget the nostalgia factor. It's just a damn fun game! Why do we need to judge on innovation alone? Can't we have room for both innovation AND the familiar?

And as for old games, yes it's true, some games age terribly (example: Driver, because that's the only game Matzy can seem to talk about), but some withstand the test of time very well (example: Super Metroid, Mega Man 2, Final Fantasy Tactics). They still control well and are very fun to play! It's foolish to make a blanket statement like "Good games from the past are not good games anymore". Not even Yahtzee would say something like that.

Most have had superior sequels though, so to then jump back 15 years seems retarded considering all the changes made.

Some of those changes make it back. You can ground-pound, wall jump, and pretty much maneuver like 3D Mario in a 2D plane.

 

[jalee]

Most have had superior sequels though, so to then jump back 15 years seems retarded considering all the changes made.

But is the game still fun? In this case, my answer is an emphatic YES. Why should I care about anything else?

Besides, a lot has changed in 15 years with this game. There's new suits (Propeller, Penguin, Ice), new level gimmicks, new moves, new bosses, etc. Anyone who has played the game past the first two or three worlds can easily tell you that this is not the same game as Super Mario Bros 3 or Super Mario World. Yes, the premise and basic gameplay is the same, but saying SMW and NSMB Wii are exactly the same is like saying God of War and God of War 2 are exactly the same game. Improvements have been made, changes have been made, new level designs have been made.

Here, I'll even play devil's advocate: New Super Mario Bros for the DS was not innovative and not really that fun. That game really was going through the motions and felt like a bunch of recycled ideas. NSMB Wii is a much better thought out game and a lot more fun.

Also, as for "superior sequels", most gamers and gaming critics still consider Super Metroid and Mega Man 2 to be the best games in their series and among the best games of all time, even after all these years.

 

[Chrissyluky]

am i the only one who noticed the maps in this one are god awful compared to the first one? no immersion at all.