Zero Punctuation: Mailbag Showdown

[wowthisnamesucks]

Allow me to preface by saying that calling me a "zOmGz NINTENDRONE FANBOY" automatically makes you a Yahtzee fanboy. Please come up with a valid argument or don't reply.

The reason most people were angry at the SSBB review is that Yahtzee made no legitimate points. I'm not stupid, I know that not every game is for everyone. Some people don't like SSBB, some people don't like Halo, some people don't like the color orange, European literature, or cucumbers. If he had said Brawl sucked because of repetative gameplay, imbalanced items, bad online support, or even something as simple as "I didn't like it because I didn't like it," it would have only gotten nasty comments and emails from the stupidest of the viewers and the genuine fanboys.

But he didn't. He did nothing but make up crap and presented it as fact. There is a huge competitive following for SSBB, with indisputably massive gaps between the best and the worst players. Anyone who's played it for more than 10 minutes can say it isn't a "mindless button masher." There are no long button sequences that require memorization in order to play. Again, the problem with the review isn't that Yahtzee said he hated brawl, the problem is that he pulled the reasons for hating it out of his ass. I'd be angry if he said that Turok was a bad game because it didn't have guns, or No More Heroes was good because it had an interactive overworld. This is the kind of crap you'd expect to see on some stupid YouTube channel or private website, Yahtzee's getting PAID for this.

And then here, he just picks out the worst of the worst, with cut n' paste "arguments" that were so poorly written that they could have been taken out of ANY idiots angry letter, and then implies guilt by association- fanboys like Brawl, therefore, if you like Brawl, you must be a fanboy.

 

[ElArabDeMagnifico]

Darn.

That sucks. I'm sorry.

Although the spectacle of being able to fight in a crossover game is fun to watch, in my point of view. What's so bad about it being Nintendo characters? And what's it like to fuck while flying? I've never tried.

Bald Eagles do it, so it must be awesome.

 

[wiseass]

"Anyone who's played it for more than 10 minutes can say it isn't a "mindless button masher." There are no long button sequences that require memorization in order to play".

Precisely this makes it a MINDLESS button masher, instead of hitting stupid button combos, you only have to hit the A button and a direction, with the occasional B move thrown in! every fighter game in existence is a button masher, the SSB series just found a way to actually dumb down an already retarded genre.

"implies guilt by association- fanboys like Brawl, therefore, if you like Brawl, you must be a fanboy

No, fanboys like brawl enough to actually write in to a reviewer, therefor If you liked brawl enough to email the reviewer, then yes said person is most likely a fanboy.(and as for me being a yahtzee fanboy im not personally emailing every nintendo fanboy to argue, im not emailing the people at nintendo/hal studios/ whoever the hell else was involved, im just arguing in a forum, a common occurance

 

[g31st]

And as a side note, I'd like to say thanks to g31st for saving me thirty minutes of sifting through this thread (I strangely enjoy tedious things, like the sailing in the Wind Waker - it's weird, I know) to find out who the biggest imbecile in the thread is.

Quite welcome.

 

[Tyrannus Argumentum]

Allow me to preface by saying that calling me a "zOmGz NINTENDRONE FANBOY" automatically makes you a Yahtzee fanboy. Please come up with a valid argument or don't reply.

False dichotomy and ad hominem in one attack. I'm afraid that you've already invalidated your argument.

The reason most people were angry at the SSBB review is that Yahtzee made no legitimate points.

Okay, here's your claim. Now, what points were illegitimate? Were every single one illegitimate? And most people? I think it's been claimed that the "Yahtzee fanbois" outnumbered the SSBB fanbois on this forum. He played the game and said what he didn't like about it.

I'm not stupid,

Establishment of ethos. Got it.

I know that not every game is for everyone. Some people don't like SSBB, some people don't like Halo, some people don't like the color orange, European literature, or cucumbers. If he had said Brawl sucked because of repetative gameplay, imbalanced items, bad online support, or even something as simple as "I didn't like it because I didn't like it," it would have only gotten nasty comments and emails from the stupidest of the viewers and the genuine fanboys.

Ahh, I'm starting to see it now...

But he didn't. He did nothing but make up crap and presented it as fact.

Well, he did mention the repetitiveness of the single-player, something you said he didn't claim. And speaking of claims, here's another one. What did he "make up"? You're calling him out on that. So, point out what he made up. Address each point, and don't resort to ad hominems, false dichotomies, and other tactics of bad arguments. Such fallacies rank right up there with the "No it isn't!" aspect of the Argument Clinic from the Monty Python skit.

There is a huge competitive following for SSBB, with indisputably massive gaps between the best and the worst players. Anyone who's played it for more than 10 minutes can say it isn't a "mindless button masher."

I played the game for four hours at least. I beat plenty of my opponent by randomly mashing buttons. Maybe a poll to find out how long people have played the game, and their opinoin of whether or not it is just a "button masher" would be best needed to back up this claim. In my personal experience, the game is a "button master". This is the conclusion I came to after my 4+ hours of playing it on my nephew's Wii. If I came to that conclusion, I don't think I can fault others for coming to the same. I will state this as a personal opinion, and one that is shared by others who have played the game. Do I think this is a valid argument? Nope. And neither is the claim that "anyone who has played it more than ten minutes can say..." that you make.

There are no long button sequences that require memorization in order to play. Again, the problem with the review isn't that Yahtzee said he hated brawl, the problem is that he pulled the reasons for hating it out of his ass.

Again, details would be nicer. It would show that you did more than just give it a cursory glance. Take each one of Yahtzee's claims and back it up. Give us points that we can look out for when we go back and watch the video again. This is what fosters debate. It encourages the exchange of information.

I'd be angry if he said that Turok was a bad game because it didn't have guns, or No More Heroes was good because it had an interactive overworld. This is the kind of crap you'd expect to see on some stupid YouTube channel or private website, Yahtzee's getting PAID for this.

Yahtzee is getting paid to entertain people. Part of that entertainment is that he is at least required to play the game and give an opinion. It's what he likes and doesn't like. Now, let's take this a bit further.

He's being paid, which means he has an employer. His employer would be the one to review his work and make the decision on whether or not Yahtzee is "doing his job". If the deemed his work detrimental to their bottom line, would not Yahtzee be unemployed now? After all, he's providing a marketable entertainment. Let the market do its job. And while he may be paid, are we paying to view his stuff? Wait, no... we're not...

And then here, he just picks out the worst of the worst, with cut n' paste "arguments" that were so poorly written that they could have been taken out of ANY idiots angry letter, and then implies guilt by association- fanboys like Brawl, therefore, if you like Brawl, you must be a fanboy.

Going back, he says that he's "sampling a few of the hate mails", and even even offers to respond to some of the more valid arguments. Doesn't seem like he's making any kind of association there. That's within the first 27 seconds of the mailbag review. Nowhere does he say that people who like SSBB are fanboys. I've just gone back and watched it twice, looking for the points you make. He says he's only reviewing the hate-mail, and responding to them. He doesn't say "This is why people who like SSBB are fanboys." Hell, he never implies it. What he is saying that those who took the time to write hate mail over a review of a game they liked are fanboys. The fanboys are the ones who wrote those letters with atrocious spelling errors and insults and flawed logic.

Granted, he himself commits the logical fallacy of "two wrongs". He responds to the immature posts with biting insults. In a professional atmosphere, he'd be castigated. However, since he is in th entertainment industry, is he held to that standard?

Now, keep in mind that throughout this response, I've never claimed you were a fanboy, and I addressed your claims directly. I make a claim at the end, and I show a little more evidence that I watched the video. If you wish to further the discussion and prove you have a side, be more specific and clear without all the condescension.

 

[The Thief]

I love these forums

Nice...

I guess the moderator's opinion sure mattered, eh Patronizing?

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Darn.

That sucks. I'm sorry.

Although the spectacle of being able to fight in a crossover game is fun to watch, in my point of view. What's so bad about it being Nintendo characters? And what's it like to fuck while flying? I've never tried.

Bald Eagles do it, so it must be awesome.

"Did the air move for you darling?"

 

[MercurySteam]

I love all of Yahtzee's reviews for the simple reason that he can make any game look however he wants it to be. I mean, I love the Halo series and the reason I didn't personally (attempt to) crucify Yahtzee cause of his review on Halo 3 was because I know all that he said was true. The only thing more loyal then a person who worships a game, is someone who worships a game, but isnt afraid to say that it has its flaws. All those people who sent Yahtzee the hate mail were not these kind of people. Yahtzee reviews alot of the popular games and doesnt give them many compliments (kinda reminds me of my dad who is also British). But then again I myself never expected half these games to turn the universe around (ok well maybe Halo 3). As well as putting the funniest Zero Puctuation episodes on my PSP, I put on the ones that review games that i have, solely so i can say to myself, "Yes, i was there and i totally agree".

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

There's always Group A and always Group B.

Most of the people here are in Group C. A's and B's get banzored very quickly.

 

[wowthisnamesucks]

Okay, here's your claim. Now, what points were illegitimate? Were every single one illegitimate? And most people? I think it's been claimed that the "Yahtzee fanbois" outnumbered the SSBB fanbois on this forum. He played the game and said what he didn't like about it.

"The only so good you can get is by slapping your palm against it [the controller] like a circus seal."

Well, he did mention the repetitiveness of the single-player, something you said he didn't claim. And speaking of claims, here's another one. What did he "make up"? You're calling him out on that. So, point out what he made up. Address each point, and don't resort to ad hominems, false dichotomies, and other tactics of bad arguments. Such fallacies rank right up there with the "No it isn't!" aspect of the Argument Clinic from the Monty Python skit.

I didn't say he didn't mention a bad single player, but it was a minor aside, and the meat of his review was that it was a 0 depth button-mashing fighting game.

I played the game for four hours at least. I beat plenty of my opponent by randomly mashing buttons. Maybe a poll to find out how long people have played the game, and their opinoin of whether or not it is just a "button masher" would be best needed to back up this claim. In my personal experience, the game is a "button master". This is the conclusion I came to after my 4+ hours of playing it on my nephew's Wii. If I came to that conclusion, I don't think I can fault others for coming to the same. I will state this as a personal opinion, and one that is shared by others who have played the game. Do I think this is a valid argument? Nope. And neither is the claim that "anyone who has played it more than ten minutes can say..." that you make.

Consider this: if nothing else, when your opponent strikes you, would you be at advantage to be close to an edge, or near the center? Being close to an edge gives you a much higher chance of being KO'd. Ignoring all other aspects of the game, positioning is crucial, and can't be done by random button pressing. Again- there is a huge hardcore crowd with smash brothers, look up some videos on youtube or something.

Again, details would be nicer. It would show that you did more than just give it a cursory glance. Take each one of Yahtzee's claims and back it up. Give us points that we can look out for when we go back and watch the video again. This is what fosters debate. It encourages the exchange of information.

"Because I think there's something wrong with a game where you can spend 15 years learning every slightest nuance and still lose to someone randomly smashing buttons." People have tournaments for serious cash over this game, they play it like a job. Saying that it's a button masher just isn't true, no, it isn't opinion because an experienced and skilled player will always beat an inexperienced and unskilled player. Saying whether you think it's good or bad is an opinion.

He's being paid, which means he has an employer. His employer would be the one to review his work and make the decision on whether or not Yahtzee is "doing his job". If the deemed his work detrimental to their bottom line, would not Yahtzee be unemployed now? After all, he's providing a marketable entertainment. Let the market do its job. And while he may be paid, are we paying to view his stuff? Wait, no... we're not...

Fair enough, but how about we call it "ranting" instead of "reviewing" for the sake of accuracy.

Going back, he says that he's "sampling a few of the hate mails", and even even offers to respond to some of the more valid arguments. Doesn't seem like he's making any kind of association there. That's within the first 27 seconds of the mailbag review. Nowhere does he say that people who like SSBB are fanboys. I've just gone back and watched it twice, looking for the points you make. He says he's only reviewing the hate-mail, and responding to them. He doesn't say "This is why people who like SSBB are fanboys." Hell, he never implies it. What he is saying that those who took the time to write hate mail over a review of a game they liked are fanboys. The fanboys are the ones who wrote those letters with atrocious spelling errors and insults and flawed logic.

"A sampling of the few" implies that it's a representation of the whole.

 

[MercurySteam]

I love all of Yahtzee's reviews for the simple reason that he can make any game look however he wants it to be. I mean, I love the Halo series and the reason I didn't personally (attempt to) crucify Yahtzee cause of his review on Halo 3 was because I know all that he said was true. The only thing more loyal then a person who worships a game, is someone who worships a game, but isnt afraid to say that it has its flaws. All those people who sent Yahtzee the hate mail were not these kind of people. Yahtzee reviews alot of the popular games and doesnt give them many compliments (kinda reminds me of my dad who is also British). But then again I myself never expected half these games to turn the universe around (ok well maybe Halo 3). As well as putting the funniest Zero Puctuation episodes on my PSP, I put on the ones that review games that i have, solely so i can say to myself, "Yes, i was there and i totally agree".

Its really not all that simple to try and compare the Halo 3 review to the Brawl one. For one thing, he admitted that there would be a problem in his viewpoint, and didn't insult the games fans while saying this. He made sure to say that he wasn't calling the game completely awful, but just average for the current FPS market. Whereas he implied that Brawl was a bane upon humanity, and all the problems he took with it seemed entirely negligible, fairly hypocritical, largely to do with him or easily avoidable, and made certain to insult the games fans, as opposed to possibly admitting that he was not the ideal candidate to review this game. The two situations are only similar because of the subject material.

Ok you are right that the SSBB review and the Halo 3 review were different, but im just using them as an example. Lots of my friends are looking forward to SSBB coming out in Australia (some of them still play the original game on the Project64 emulator), hell one of them even has it, but I have never heard nor read anything saying that it is a game that could give all those who declare games like, Halo 3, GOW, CS, or GTA4 mediocore, a run for their money. It would be understandable if Yahtzee gave a really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, good game a bad review (this kind of game does not exist yet), but the fact is, SSBB isnt classified as a game that could shake the Earth. But then again, if people cant admit that their favourte game/s arent perfect then that's their problem and i recommend that that get the fuck away from Yahtzee and Zero Punctuation.

 

[Archon666]

Yahtzee you are the man!
hope those bastereds get the mesage

 

[Heroic One]

Wow, the Proclaimers. I didn't think anyone remembered they were alive.

 

[Doug]

Brawl Review

our death matches could probably have been faithfully recreated by hurdling the controllers down a flight of stairs

I believe he was making reference to him and his friends button mashing without a clue what they were doing - i.e. random mashs. So, not bad controls, they just didn't know what they were doing, heh

 

[MercurySteam]

I love all of Yahtzee's reviews for the simple reason that he can make any game look however he wants it to be. I mean, I love the Halo series and the reason I didn't personally (attempt to) crucify Yahtzee cause of his review on Halo 3 was because I know all that he said was true. The only thing more loyal then a person who worships a game, is someone who worships a game, but isnt afraid to say that it has its flaws. All those people who sent Yahtzee the hate mail were not these kind of people. Yahtzee reviews alot of the popular games and doesnt give them many compliments (kinda reminds me of my dad who is also British). But then again I myself never expected half these games to turn the universe around (ok well maybe Halo 3). As well as putting the funniest Zero Puctuation episodes on my PSP, I put on the ones that review games that i have, solely so i can say to myself, "Yes, i was there and i totally agree".

Its really not all that simple to try and compare the Halo 3 review to the Brawl one. For one thing, he admitted that there would be a problem in his viewpoint, and didn't insult the games fans while saying this. He made sure to say that he wasn't calling the game completely awful, but just average for the current FPS market. Whereas he implied that Brawl was a bane upon humanity, and all the problems he took with it seemed entirely negligible, fairly hypocritical, largely to do with him or easily avoidable, and made certain to insult the games fans, as opposed to possibly admitting that he was not the ideal candidate to review this game. The two situations are only similar because of the subject material.

Ok you are right that the SSBB review and the Halo 3 review were different, but im just using them as an example. Lots of my friends are looking forward to SSBB coming out in Australia (some of them still play the original game on the Project64 emulator), hell one of them even has it, but I have never heard nor read anything saying that it is a game that could give all those who declare games like, Halo 3, GOW, CS, or GTA4 mediocore, a run for their money. It would be understandable if Yahtzee gave a really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, good game a bad review (this kind of game does not exist yet), but the fact is, SSBB isnt classified as a game that could shake the Earth. But then again, if people cant admit that their favourte game/s arent perfect then that's their problem and i recommend that that get the fuck away from Yahtzee and Zero Punctuation.

...Sorry, just trying to get my head around this...who says that GTA IV and God of War are mediocre?

I doubt there are any of the Brawl fans who claim it to be heaven collected and compressed into a disc. The series is a progressive work, with each on building upon its previous. The game will still have flaws, as will any product of human endeavour. However, it is still deserving of praise and is quite a good game. If Yahtzee had taken the legitamite arguments, that many of the "Nintendo Fanboys" have brought up, such as their lazy use of clones and the shoehorning in of one of the latest generation of pokemon to try and stir up some interest in it, there wouldn't be as much of a full on war here.

OK first of all, when i said GOW i meant Gears of War, but whatever floats ya boat.

Second of all, when i said "I have never heard nor read anything saying that it is a game that could give all those who declare games like, Halo 3, GOW, CS, or GTA4 mediocore, a run for their money." i meant people that are stuck up pricks that are hard to impress, but then again aren't worth impressing (kinda like Yahtzee, but not Yahtzee cause Yahtzee is worth impressing). Yahtzee can't be classified as one of these people because he has never declared any of these games shitty, and because of his cool hat. (getting a bit off subject here...)

The lessons learned here are that Yahtzee isnt the worst of the worst, and that making two games that both can both be abbreviated as GOW is a mistake and should never happen again.

Hope this clears up all the confusion.

 

[MercurySteam]

Brawl Review

our death matches could probably have been faithfully recreated by hurdling the controllers down a flight of stairs

I believe he was making reference to him and his friends button mashing without a clue what they were doing - i.e. random mashs. So, not bad controls, they just didn't know what they were doing, heh

heh kinda like what i do in Dead or Alive 3