Zero Punctuation: Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes - $40 Demo
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
God, I already thought that whole messing about in her guts for the bomb scene was incredibly gratuitous (seriously, the fact that scene is rendered pointless immediately afterwards is the textbook definition of gratuitous) on its own. That is just downright sick and wrong.erttheking said:
Really? It's matched up with the reviews I've seen so far.randomthefox said:
Jim.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/reviews/11133-Metal-Gear-Solid-V-Ground-Zeroes-Review-Snake-Oil
and
To sum them up,
1. :/ Yeah, it's pretty short.
2.
The gameplay is pretty good, but there is very little there story wise. Can't wait for the actual game. ;pAnd 3. D: What the tap dancing Christ?!
As a long time lurker I've noticed ZP's comment pages usually have at least few posts like that. I just can't imagine why...randomthefox said:
I really hope they've fixed the sneaking like Yahtzee implied, MGS3 is one of my favourite games of all time but the gameplay in MGS4 and Peace Walker bored me to tears. Not going to find out myself until I can get Ground Zeroes for 10 euros and I have a PS4, since I've heard bad things about the PS3 release.
Oh Jesus Christ, it's this thread again. I've already written a small essay on this. Suppose I'll go again.
And you don't hear her being gang-raped. You hear the conversation up to that point, and then it doesn't happen. I wish people would play the damn game or at least watch the YouTube clip of it before going off on one. This is the whole "Mass Effect is porn" thing, where no one plays the damn game but are willing to give their opinion based off someone else's opinion based off a comedy review of it.
"It was uncomfortable". Yes. Yes it was. You remember how in The Last of Us how scary it is to be a little girl getting chased around by a man who plans to murder you in a restaurant with no way to escape? It is supposed to make you feel uncomfortable; that is the tone they want.
"Peadophilia" he says, despite the fact she is 25. And a Prisoner of War. In a war camp. You know, what actually happens in these places. Rape is a real threat if you get captured and you're a women.
"Torture"? We've had torture in EVERY single Metal Gear Solid. Is it because she is a girl? "Torture rape"? This is mentioned to happen to Cecile and Paz in Peace Walker, to EVA and Raiden in MGS3, to 3 of the Beauties in MGS4, and once again, it's what actually happens in these places.
Kojima has said about Phantom Pain from meeting 1 that he wanted to really discuss themes and he didn't want to shy away from them. He has always hinted at these themes of the pain of war, and what REALLY happens, and to take away all of the hero veneer and Hollywood polish and just put you in there. It's not nice or pleasant. Neither was Spec Ops: The Line. They're not there for happy fun times. The Phantom Pain isn't either.
And once again, you don't listen to the rape. You hear the prequel, and then silence. Much like the murder in Psycho, you hear and see nothing; your mind does the rest.
It's a decoy bomb. It's a real life tactic used. And it often works in real life. And it nearly worked in this game.
And does it make you feel uncomfortable? Well, that was the point. These places are not supposed to be holiday resorts. I would go into more detail, but I have to explain this EVERY time. Find either the other thread or earlier this comment.
But if you play Peace Walker or Ground Zero, and paid a lot of attention to the previous entries, then you'd know the Metal Gear Solid is VERY dark. It just doesn't show it. It's not like Gears of War which needs to shove it's grittiness and darkness into your face. It's dark in that brightly coloured room with the closet that no one wants to open because it screams at night when you're not looking kind of way.
Big Boss's journey is not a happy one. We are embarking on a man who goes from being the epitome of fairness, mercy and peace to becoming a man who plunges the entire world into war on the brink of destruction; the man who is eventually the ultimate bad guy who we, as Snake, must find and kill twice. We are going to watch the journey of a good man become evil through those small necessary steps across the line until he finds himself as bad as the people he is fighting. We are going to see war, proper war, and what war is really like through the eyes of a man who is, by his one admittance, only good and only happy with a gun in his hands and blood on his face.
We will see him lose everything, and we are going to watch him learn to deal with the guilt of leading his friends and followers to death, of surviving when everyone he knows and loves and is better than him dies, when his every action causes nothing but death and misery and the only option left is to hold a nuclear missile to the throat of the entire world.
And I like his writing. He has touched upon a lot of topics which are interesting, and he has an interesting point of view; all of his villains are memorable and there are some interesting philosophical debates to be had around a lot of his ideas. You may not like his writing, and there is a bit of a problem with dialogue "I have... Metal Gear." "METAL GEAR!?" "Yes, Metal Gear". But I like it well enough, it's always interesting.
Ego stroking? He gets death threats; for Raiden, for ending MGS4, for potentially killing Solid Snake. No, he is the end result of a game developer who has been told "You MUST make this game" and he's responded "Well, if I am going to make this game, then I can make whatever game I want. And I want to make a game which really challenges the player and the themes of war." This is precisely the kind of thing that people constantly complain about.
Spec Ops; So AMAZING because it deals with war REALISTICALLY! It makes you realise how bad war is.
The Last of Us; SO AMAZING because it deals with HORRIBLE PEOPLE and how good people can be SHITTY and KILL EACH OTHER and RAPE THREATS and SO DRAMATIC!
Bioshock Infinite: SO AMAZING because it talks about REALLY DEEP THEMES! OH MY GOD! And it's SO DARK while LOOKING BRIGHT!
Tomb Raider: ARGH, WHY CAN'T VIDEO GAMES DEAL WITH RAPE!? (Alternatively) ARGH, VIDEO GAMES AREN'T ALLOWED TO DEAL WITH RAPE! ONLY FILMS AND BOOKS CAN!
Ground Zeroes: UGH! THIS GAME MAKES REFERENCES TO RAPE, TORTURE, MULTILATION AND MURDER! THAT NEVER HAPPENS IN WAR!
Here it is. A game which deals with all those things people complain about Call of Duty for doing. The sort of game which takes what the Red Cross was complaining about when they said video games don't deal with war crimes.
This game is doing precisely that. You want video games to be taken seriously? Here one is. Phantom Pain is going to be similar to Full Metal Jacket and Apocalypse Now. It's not going to be fun. Or comfortable. It's not meant to be.
Okay, I'm done with these threads. I've written two essays on the damn thing, I'm just gonna paste a link to my blog post from now on.
They basically say it when you see him and his name flashes up underneath. And I think a few characters mention it once or twice as a derogatory nickname.UberGott said:
They never say it, they only imply it, and to be honest, this is equivalent to watching Apocalypse Now and saying "All I got from this is that Americans slaughtered innocent people for fun".Johnny Novgorod said:
Jesus Christ, did anyone actually play this game? It's not "Well, we had best leave that in her vagina for shits and giggles", it's "Sorry, Big Boss, but they once again outplayed you and you didn't manage to save me; they hid another one in a place you'd never look". Decoy bombs actually happen in warfare.geldonyetich said:
And you don't hear her being gang-raped. You hear the conversation up to that point, and then it doesn't happen. I wish people would play the damn game or at least watch the YouTube clip of it before going off on one. This is the whole "Mass Effect is porn" thing, where no one plays the damn game but are willing to give their opinion based off someone else's opinion based off a comedy review of it.
Well, at least you watched the ending.Jandau said:
"It was uncomfortable". Yes. Yes it was. You remember how in The Last of Us how scary it is to be a little girl getting chased around by a man who plans to murder you in a restaurant with no way to escape? It is supposed to make you feel uncomfortable; that is the tone they want.
"Peadophilia" he says, despite the fact she is 25. And a Prisoner of War. In a war camp. You know, what actually happens in these places. Rape is a real threat if you get captured and you're a women.
"Torture"? We've had torture in EVERY single Metal Gear Solid. Is it because she is a girl? "Torture rape"? This is mentioned to happen to Cecile and Paz in Peace Walker, to EVA and Raiden in MGS3, to 3 of the Beauties in MGS4, and once again, it's what actually happens in these places.
Kojima has said about Phantom Pain from meeting 1 that he wanted to really discuss themes and he didn't want to shy away from them. He has always hinted at these themes of the pain of war, and what REALLY happens, and to take away all of the hero veneer and Hollywood polish and just put you in there. It's not nice or pleasant. Neither was Spec Ops: The Line. They're not there for happy fun times. The Phantom Pain isn't either.
They have said it won't be part of the main game; but I imagine there will be a Game of the Year or whatever which has both or something.SNCommand said:
Sigh. It's not a reward. There's no fanfare. There isn't a level up song. It's a gruff veteran who discovers, to his and your horror, a tape of one of his old friends being raped and tortured and having to listen to it.04whim said:
And once again, you don't listen to the rape. You hear the prequel, and then silence. Much like the murder in Psycho, you hear and see nothing; your mind does the rest.
Once again, can you play the game or watch someone else play it? It won't take too long, the game is short.nima55 said:
It's a decoy bomb. It's a real life tactic used. And it often works in real life. And it nearly worked in this game.
And does it make you feel uncomfortable? Well, that was the point. These places are not supposed to be holiday resorts. I would go into more detail, but I have to explain this EVERY time. Find either the other thread or earlier this comment.
Well, at least SOMEONE gets it. High five, dude.thetenet said:
Yes. Because you don't like it, means no one should like it. Congratulations on being the stereotype of the Escapist community.Zachary Amaranth said:
So, we go from Solid Snake, who is all-things-considered a "good guy" who is fighting an "evil guy" where the lines are drawn and you know who the bad guys are and who the good guys are (kind of- there's a lot of betrayal in the series).
But if you play Peace Walker or Ground Zero, and paid a lot of attention to the previous entries, then you'd know the Metal Gear Solid is VERY dark. It just doesn't show it. It's not like Gears of War which needs to shove it's grittiness and darkness into your face. It's dark in that brightly coloured room with the closet that no one wants to open because it screams at night when you're not looking kind of way.
Big Boss's journey is not a happy one. We are embarking on a man who goes from being the epitome of fairness, mercy and peace to becoming a man who plunges the entire world into war on the brink of destruction; the man who is eventually the ultimate bad guy who we, as Snake, must find and kill twice. We are going to watch the journey of a good man become evil through those small necessary steps across the line until he finds himself as bad as the people he is fighting. We are going to see war, proper war, and what war is really like through the eyes of a man who is, by his one admittance, only good and only happy with a gun in his hands and blood on his face.
We will see him lose everything, and we are going to watch him learn to deal with the guilt of leading his friends and followers to death, of surviving when everyone he knows and loves and is better than him dies, when his every action causes nothing but death and misery and the only option left is to hold a nuclear missile to the throat of the entire world.
No fan here is defending the price; even I who spends a lot of time explaining my point of view to people doesn't bother defending the price. As far as I am concerned, I am happy I played it, and I love Metal Gear Solid, and I'm glad I played it earlier and it was (sorta) worth it to me, and I'm saying only to me, as a Metal Gear Solid fanatic, do I find the price (sorta) acceptable. I wouldn't, however, recommend it for that price.
And I like his writing. He has touched upon a lot of topics which are interesting, and he has an interesting point of view; all of his villains are memorable and there are some interesting philosophical debates to be had around a lot of his ideas. You may not like his writing, and there is a bit of a problem with dialogue "I have... Metal Gear." "METAL GEAR!?" "Yes, Metal Gear". But I like it well enough, it's always interesting.
Ego stroking? He gets death threats; for Raiden, for ending MGS4, for potentially killing Solid Snake. No, he is the end result of a game developer who has been told "You MUST make this game" and he's responded "Well, if I am going to make this game, then I can make whatever game I want. And I want to make a game which really challenges the player and the themes of war." This is precisely the kind of thing that people constantly complain about.
Spec Ops; So AMAZING because it deals with war REALISTICALLY! It makes you realise how bad war is.
The Last of Us; SO AMAZING because it deals with HORRIBLE PEOPLE and how good people can be SHITTY and KILL EACH OTHER and RAPE THREATS and SO DRAMATIC!
Bioshock Infinite: SO AMAZING because it talks about REALLY DEEP THEMES! OH MY GOD! And it's SO DARK while LOOKING BRIGHT!
Tomb Raider: ARGH, WHY CAN'T VIDEO GAMES DEAL WITH RAPE!? (Alternatively) ARGH, VIDEO GAMES AREN'T ALLOWED TO DEAL WITH RAPE! ONLY FILMS AND BOOKS CAN!
Ground Zeroes: UGH! THIS GAME MAKES REFERENCES TO RAPE, TORTURE, MULTILATION AND MURDER! THAT NEVER HAPPENS IN WAR!
Here it is. A game which deals with all those things people complain about Call of Duty for doing. The sort of game which takes what the Red Cross was complaining about when they said video games don't deal with war crimes.
This game is doing precisely that. You want video games to be taken seriously? Here one is. Phantom Pain is going to be similar to Full Metal Jacket and Apocalypse Now. It's not going to be fun. Or comfortable. It's not meant to be.
Once again, no one is defending the price. Stop making up extra things, we've got enough to discuss as it is (what with implied rape, torture, etc).
Which is the point. It's not supposed to be comfortable. None of it is.Knowing Kojima, I'm pretty sure the method by which it would be introduced would be worse than being opened up surgically.thaluikhain said:
As such....
Scars Unseen said:
In short, I'd really rather not.
Okay, I'm done with these threads. I've written two essays on the damn thing, I'm just gonna paste a link to my blog post from now on.
Not a big Metal Gear fan to begin with, but I think it being "not okay" was exactly the point. It was supposed to get a rise out of people, make them uncomfortable, and go "that is truly F@cked up". What's more it's kind of hard to do a really dark or gritty game when you confine yourself to bad guys that only act like that were being written in the most draconian days of the "Comics Code Authority". When you look at what really goes on with mercenaries, third world warlords, and unaligned soldiers, this seems like it's pretty much par for the course. Wiring kids up with bombs and such and then sending them on suicide missions against first world soldiers is something you've seen throughout Africa and The Middle East (as it young children being aducted and turned into hardened killers using the most cruel of tactics and sent out loaded on drugs and booze as young as 9). You start digging into how messed up the environment Snake is dealing with is, and yeah... I could see someone implanting a bomb in a hostage they know is going to be recognized, and truthfully the idea of a "secondary device" is one that you don't see show up in fiction more often. If your dealing with some guy who is supposed to be a jaded psychopath implanting these things in sex organs makes sense, and chances are it got him off like a seriel-killer too.nima55 said:
But then again I'm a jaded horror fan, so stuff like that doesn't particularly bug me when the bad guys are involved, the fact that it offends the normal person is pretty much the point. Sort of like the way Jack The Ripper cut open victims, or perhaps more recently and relevantly the way BTK took out his victims (BTK stands for: Bind, Torture, Kill).
Of course then again while it's a different style of game and was presented differently I just laughed my arse off at "South Park: Stick Of Truth" where:
they did pretty much the same thing. In that game the US government implants a nuke in Mr. Slave's ass to destroy the town and save the world from Nazi Zombies unleashed by a spaceship crash. Their first plan having already been thwarted so this is the failsafe. You need to shrink down, crawl up his butt (with his anal cavity and intestines forming the final dungeon) and disarm the device. Same basic idea, different style and outcome. The story was just more serious, the bad guys stuck it up the other end (on a girl instead of a guy) and Snake didn't have any gnome powder... (though come to think of it, that would have made the most absolutely F@cked up crossover ever).
But yeah, it's messed up and all kinds of wrong. Hopefully the guy that did it faced a truly unpleasant death at Snake's hands. In heroic fantasy (or even a lot of horror) half the point to that kind of garbage is to get you invested for the inevitable righteous beat down. It also sort of "sells" why a hero who is kind of a brutal jerk themselves can be an anti-hero as opposed to just being seen as another villain (which is kind of an issue with Snake/Big Boss on some levels... especially seeing as Big Boss *does* become a villain eventually as far as I know).
Fantastic! Yahtzee basically said that he liked the gameplay, and I would never in my wildest dreams expect him to enjoy the story or any of the dialogue of a MGS title, so this is about the best news I could have hoped for. As for it being overpriced, of course it is. But I feel like regular games priced at $60 are overpriced too, which is why the newest game in my library is The Last of Us, and even that was a gift. I'll pick up this game, and the actual MGS5, when they are both on sale at some point, and then I'll be perfectly happy and content.
It's not $40 in America, it's $30.Caramel Frappe said:
OT: Child rape is bad, I think we can all agree, but in the context of the game and the setting it uses and the tone Kojima is trying to set for TPP I think it's perfectly OK to use it as a story device seeing as it's not shown or even heard explicitly. The entire game is meant to make the player want only revenge for the sick, terrible acts Cipher and the gang did against BB, Paz, Chico and Mother Base. A lot of you are sounding like the "GAMES MAKE VIOLENT!" reactionaries, but since it's popular to be reactionary against violence against females I guess it's alright.
I... don't think that's correct. The "first" demo footage from GDC 2013 introduces Ishmael, not Skull Face.Caramel Frappe said:
I re-watched the opening of Ground Zeroes and listened to all of Chico's Tapes to be sure, and the name "Skull Face" doesn't come up once. The closest thing you get is in the 'Agent's Recording' tape, in which the man himself says the following:
"Yes, that's right. You see a skull face. You see me. This skull is who I am. My mark, my proof of humanity. I have no country, no language, I have no face, but I haven't lost my skull."
So unless I've missed something specific, Ground Zeroes is on par with The Dark Knight: The audience knows the villain's slightly stupid moniker, but the characters themselves never use it, or even directly reference it in the story.
Well, instead of quoting the whole thing, I rather just say that while games should explore dark themes (and some do indeed), there is a sense that there needs to be a consistent tone.
In Mass Effect, the character's sexuality was implemented to the game narrative rather compellingly by given the story depth while also giving personality depth to characters, note that this has been done since the first Mass Effect, instead of following nearly a decade of character development. In Spec Ops violence and atrocities of war are based on a consistent tone and a cohesion with the character arc, where all the components work to deliver the message.
I like MGS story, but is pretty full of BS in many many points and many moments, is badly written and ... inconsistent in many ways. ALL the games had goofy elements, gags and so on and so forth, problem is that MGS4 tried to be bolder and pretentious at the same time, but it never outweighs one with the other, is goofy but is never that dark, and it makes a point without going through the dark narrative while also showcasing it (see the stories given by Drebin, after you defeated the bosses, they carried the message without compromising the story quality and pacing).
Then you have MGS5's story, a continuation of MGSW story taking the dirtiest events in the last 50 years during the cold war from both the USA (see central america during the 80's), the USSR (with the Afghan war) and African Nations and conflicts, places that are well known for it's issues. Kojima's response for that era of the cold war is take an audiotape, making it a reward (which is kind of fucked up when you think about it), and showcase that part of the cold war by making a shocking inconsistent piece of character development out of place. It could have done better, the game tone is not accorded to that sort of theme (remind you that is a series with a full complete gag of itself, while also attempting to be witty).
To put it in context, imagine if a James Bond movie suddenly crosses with A Clockwork Orange, it cannot possibly work with a single tone, you either tgo Ian Fleming or Stanley Kubrick but you can't go both. It how it feels like for the game, a shocking moment just for shock sake and nothing more.
I simply borrow the game, I'm not stupid, dumping 40 bucks is in itself an insult.
In Mass Effect, the character's sexuality was implemented to the game narrative rather compellingly by given the story depth while also giving personality depth to characters, note that this has been done since the first Mass Effect, instead of following nearly a decade of character development. In Spec Ops violence and atrocities of war are based on a consistent tone and a cohesion with the character arc, where all the components work to deliver the message.
I like MGS story, but is pretty full of BS in many many points and many moments, is badly written and ... inconsistent in many ways. ALL the games had goofy elements, gags and so on and so forth, problem is that MGS4 tried to be bolder and pretentious at the same time, but it never outweighs one with the other, is goofy but is never that dark, and it makes a point without going through the dark narrative while also showcasing it (see the stories given by Drebin, after you defeated the bosses, they carried the message without compromising the story quality and pacing).
Then you have MGS5's story, a continuation of MGS
W story taking the dirtiest events in the last 50 years during the cold war from both the USA (see central america during the 80's), the USSR (with the Afghan war) and African Nations and conflicts, places that are well known for it's issues. Kojima's response for that era of the cold war is take an audiotape, making it a reward (which is kind of fucked up when you think about it), and showcase that part of the cold war by making a shocking inconsistent piece of character development out of place. It could have done better, the game tone is not accorded to that sort of theme (remind you that is a series with a full complete gag of itself, while also attempting to be witty).To put it in context, imagine if a James Bond movie suddenly crosses with A Clockwork Orange, it cannot possibly work with a single tone, you either tgo Ian Fleming or Stanley Kubrick but you can't go both. It how it feels like for the game, a shocking moment just for shock sake and nothing more.
I simply borrow the game, I'm not stupid, dumping 40 bucks is in itself an insult.
Ooh. Good video Yahtzee. My friends and I are currently swapping the "game" around after each paying for part of it. It's a stunning level, but shit man. 40 bucks? Total bullshit. Do what we did folks. Especially if you're fans of the series like we are think 40 bucks is too much. Split the cost among your friends and pass it around. Works well. We all paid about eight bucks each for it. As for the Webbys, I voted tfor you guys like I do every year, but you're up against Twitch in your category. That's gonna be a tough nut to crack y'all. Sorry!
I thought "Mr. Skullface" was Yahtzee making fun of the game, as is his usual wont. But then I looked into it more, and no, apparently that's the actual name of the character.
This in a nutshell is why all the other gruesome bits are offensive here. Context matters, and the context of the Metal Gear franchise has always been silliness. The bloody realism of the Battle of Normandy worked cinematic wonders in Saving Private Ryan, but if that same realism had been applied to, say, the climax of Stripes, we'd be horrified and call the movie an abomination. Likewise, once you've named your villain "Mr. Skullface", you've created a cartoon character. Thus, when you juxtapose that with the brutal torture and rape of multiple children, we will be horrified and angry at YOU, not just at your character.
Sheesh, the more I read about this game, the more it sounds like a parody of Metal Gear Solid. Maybe that's the point, or maybe Kojima wants to quit and the only way he knows how is to piss off everyone in the free world, or something, but that's not going to stop me from calling this appalling.
This in a nutshell is why all the other gruesome bits are offensive here. Context matters, and the context of the Metal Gear franchise has always been silliness. The bloody realism of the Battle of Normandy worked cinematic wonders in Saving Private Ryan, but if that same realism had been applied to, say, the climax of Stripes, we'd be horrified and call the movie an abomination. Likewise, once you've named your villain "Mr. Skullface", you've created a cartoon character. Thus, when you juxtapose that with the brutal torture and rape of multiple children, we will be horrified and angry at YOU, not just at your character.
Sheesh, the more I read about this game, the more it sounds like a parody of Metal Gear Solid. Maybe that's the point, or maybe Kojima wants to quit and the only way he knows how is to piss off everyone in the free world, or something, but that's not going to stop me from calling this appalling.
AND he's going to charge $40 for this? To hell with that. Excuse me while I go and play the free expansion to FTL, which I bought for $10 and have put 142 hours into.
Sande45 said:
Leon Declis said:
YES! People who get it! It always seems that a large percentage of people who are complaining about the content haven't even played it and are just reacting to what they hear about it. And as everyone I've quoted here says, it's SUPPOSED to be dark and disturbing. It's not supposed to be quirky or tongue in cheek. It's leading into a hero falling into the role of a villain, and you get to play the character as it happens. People don't fall from grace for no reason, they fall when so much bad shit is happening that it seems anything they do won't be as bad.Therumancer said:
Once you finish the main mission and the bomb is removed from Paz, you feel that everything is going to be okay. You finished the mission, right? You get rewarded with a happy or at least thought provoking ending for finishing a game, right? Wrong, not here. That's not how real life works, especially in warfare. Big Boss has everything taken away from him in just a few short minutes in a horrible, gruesome scene that completely invalidates everything he did from Peace Walker to Ground Zeroes. It's all there in order to tear him down. Phantom Pain will be him reassembling himself as best he can, but he is going to be very changed from the experience.
I am very eager to play it.
Ah, see this is where it was different for me. At private school we were far above you plebians. We simply made got our butlers to fight for us while we shouted encouragement in Latin. And then the headmaster would come and give us our canings. To finish, we'd have toffee pudding. Huzzah!Evonisia said:
I really think that Hideo Kojima is just trying to see how many sexist and disgusting things he can shove into a game before someone stops him.
No one has yet. I'm sure the array of Konami yes-men aren't able to even think about challenging him on anything.
No one has yet. I'm sure the array of Konami yes-men aren't able to even think about challenging him on anything.