Zero Punctuation: Tomodachi Life - Nintendo Life Simulator

[MowDownJoe]

I'll say the same thing I say in every Tomodachi Life thread: THIS?! This is what the LGBTOMGWTFBBQ community got so pissed off about?

Well, it was more the fact that Nintendo collectively shit itself over the internet. MovieBob went into a huge rant on Twitter that all Nintendo had to say to avoid controversy was "We only translated the game, and this wasn't in the original version." And they blew it. And then Jim did 2 episodes of the Jimquisition on it because of that.

 

[Erttheking]

This episode was much funnier than the more recent ones, my favorite bits being anything involving lady Hitler and Yahtzee burying the reindeer man.

 

[LaoJim]

This was interesting to watch because the points were made based on a incorrect initial premise, that excluding same sex relationships was less work than adding them (wrong as it is to actually exclude the option). Anyone who actually makes games would tell you this as there are more factors to consider so more if statements and testing to deal with, and its odd to have to point this out as the person making the point makes games himself!

Depends how its coded. However consider this sample:

boolean canCoupleMarry(Person a, Person b)
{
if (a == b)
{ return false; //can't marry yourself
}
if (a.age < 18 || b.age < 18)
{ return false; //no jailbait. alter according to local law
}
// if (a.gender == b.gender)
// { return false;
// }
// Allow same sex marriage
...
...
// Other conditions as required
return true;
}

Of course you are assuming that everyone is potentially bisexual. If you want to give the player the option of setting a sexuality when you create the character, then the code to add the button to the screen is going to be potenitally longer than the logic needed to handle the sexuality options.

 

[FFMaster]

This was interesting to watch because the points were made based on a incorrect initial premise, that excluding same sex relationships was less work than adding them (wrong as it is to actually exclude the option). Anyone who actually makes games would tell you this as there are more factors to consider so more if statements and testing to deal with, and its odd to have to point this out as the person making the point makes games himself!

Depends how its coded. However consider this sample:

boolean canCoupleMarry(Person a, Person b)
{
if (a == b)
{ return false; //can't marry yourself
}
if (a.age < 18 || b.age < 18)
{ return false; //no jailbait. alter according to local law
}
// if (a.gender == b.gender)
// { return false;
// }
// Allow same sex marriage
...
...
// Other conditions as required
return true;
}

Of course you are assuming that everyone is potentially bisexual. If you want to give the player the option of setting a sexuality when you create the character, then the code to add the button to the screen is going to be potenitally longer than the logic needed to handle the sexuality options.

still proving the point i made in the post if you actually read down into it that its a minor change (reading past the first paragraph is something im guessing noone is bothering to do). this is assuming that all objects are asexual etc, but this still influences the design process. Reason being more work to account for the increased amount of possible matches for each person, as this has an effect on computation time and memory requirements as these are limited resources.

 

[Wolf Hagen]

For a weird fanboyish reason, I'd like to see a let's drown out of this.

 

[LaoJim]

still proving the point i made in the post if you actually read down into it that its a minor change (reading past the first paragraph is something im guessing noone is bothering to do). this is assuming that all objects are asexual etc, but this still influences the design process. Reason being more work to account for the increased amount of possible matches for each person, as this has an effect on computation time and memory requirements as these are limited resources.

I've not played Tomodachi life, so I'm not sure how it handles relationships, but presumably every characters has some values regarding their opinion of everyone else in the game. If we assume love is just a strong version of like, you don't need to have any more values. (And even if you do it probably only need one byte more, assuming there's 100 characters in the game we talking 100*100 bytes = about 10k which shouldn't break the bank unless the hardware is already up against the limit) Whenever an event happens between these two characters the values move up or down. If the values pass a certain threshold then there's the chance for a relationship to start. Done this way I don't see that it needs any more memory or time than just doing hetrosexual relationships.

There are lots of arguments for the inclusion and why they should have done it, but the one here is stupid because "its less work to include than exclude" is just flat out wrong. baring in mind this is horse that was beaten to death months ago anyway

I don't see that its flat out wrong. I think the idea is that allowing homosexual relationships/marriage shouldn't be regarded as an additional feature. I think its better to say that if its in the design document from the start than it is pretty much exactly the same amount of work.

You also have to consider then that even if they did allow gay marriage people would still complain because they can't have kids so can't progress further through the game (cause by my understanding of it , sending out your kids is an important part of progression). So instead of no gay marriage complaints we would get something else, unless more work was don.

Again this is not a problem if its in the design document from the start. As it's a family friendly game you just have
a stork bring the new baby to the (same or different sex) couple, no questions asked.

And even then you have angry middle American mothers complaining that the game is teacher her kids "non christian values

If you're making a modern life simulation you have to take a stand on this issue. Not having gay marriage isn't being neutral these days (maybe twenty years ago it would have been), its taking a anti-gay stance. As a company you have to decide on one stance or the other, and either way you are going to upset some people. In this case, regardless of anything else, I think this angry middle American mothers kids are going to realize that gay people exist sooner or later whatever she does.

The easy way around this is to have a slider setting the ratio of homo/hetro/bisexual people in the game (Or let it be set on a character by character basis). This allows people to create a completely gay community, a more balanced community or a "traditional" community as they see fit. Will your hypothetical mother be happy with this solution? Probably not, but its now firmly her problem.

 

[sumanoskae]

I have long awaited the return of Senor Couqonfays. I almost want to buy the game just to see how far I can stretch "Family Friendly"

 

[superguin200]

Did anyone else completely fanboy/girl out when he mentioned his novels? I want to know what happened to the other characters...

 

[Clunks]

Granted, this probably isn't the most convincing defence you'll ever hear of Tomodachi Life as a game, but: I think the fact that you got some of your best gags ever simply by describing yo/the internet. Does that make it worth the asking price? I don't know, I guess that depends on how easily amused you are. I watched Jimothy's Freaky Constantina song every day for about a fortnight, so I guess if I had a 3DS I'd be exactly the target audience for it.

 

[Poetic Nova]

Comedy gold, then again I didn't expect anything less coming from him.

 

[Coolblue]

I honestly still find it kinda weird or whatever to bash on Nintendo for this. Because first, this was originally a Japan-only series until someone decided that it should come over here too, hence the non-existence of same-sex relationships and marriages because that kind of thing is pretty much non-existent in Japan, from what I hear. And I understand Nintendo of America could edit the code to allow that, but it's not like they're trying to deliberately shame anyone. If they were translating it to make it for the U.S., then I imagine they wouldn't have had the time to edit in that function before their release date mark was made. And plus, Nintendo's not blindly attacking anyone for it. If there was some kind of thing shaming homosexuals and other differently-oriented people in the game, then I wouldn't have gotten Tomodachi Life in the first place. But looking at the game and seeing only heterosexual relationships and blindly yelling "NINTENDO IS ANTI-GAY STOP BUYING THEIR GAMES WAAAAAAAAAAAAH" is like saying that one certain person at a party hates Kool-Aid and fruit-related things in general, simply because that person didn't think to bring fruit punch they bought at the fruit store. He wasn't immediately thinking about it at the time, and someone had already brought their own personal flavor that everyone else enjoyed, but when HE didn't consider everyone else, suddenly he's the bad guy.

Plus, and I know this may be a little bad of me to say, but is this also because people are just willing to bash on Nintendo lately that everyone's trying to hit them at every single fucking angle that they can get their grubby little mitts on? Oh hey, Nintendo forgot to put same-sex marriage in a game that came from a different continent and didn't usually have same-sex marriage and didn't have time to code in same-sex relations. NOBODY ELSE IS DOING IT EITHER BUT NINTENDO YOU ASSHOLES! PITCHFORK AND TORCHES! Oh hey, the Wii U is selling badly and so is the 3DS, THEY'RE CLEARLY SLIPPING ON THEIR GRADE A SALES! ROB THEM OF THEIR MONEY! Honestly, you fucking people need to get a grip. Nintendo's not doing this shit to deliberately get a rise out of everyone, and if they were, I think we'd all know when they were and we'd had all seen it by now. They're not doing anything fucking wrong, and there's no need to start throwing shit at them because they tripped up on one solitary stair on their company stairwell. Just give them a fucking break and let them make and sell their games in peace. They're about the only other thing in the current video gaming scene that's keeping it all a nice shade of bright colors, instead of the generic black, brown and grey colors we've all become relegated to nowadays.

TL;DR: Stop giving Nintendo garbage for things they're not even intending to say or do. They're not looking to hurt anyone, and they'd be better off with people like you jabbing at their backs and cutting them every time they walk out of rhythm.

 

[cptjack42]

You'd actually expect X to be able to keep something secret? She'd be accidentally spilling the beans the second someone asked "what's he like in bed." And then she'd pretend she said nothing.

 

[geier]

I fail to see a problem with excluding LGBTQAQ. I'm obese. Just like 50% of americans and mexicans or 30% of the germans. How many games are there that let me play as a fat guy?
Ask any fat person how they are treated from others. I don't think LGBTQAQ are treated worse then fat people. Am i supposed to protest now until all games include fat people?

captcha: milk was a bad choice
Realy? Only if it is the milk of mice.

 

[BehattedWanderer]

I kind of want Señor Koqueonfaes to be a recurring ZP character, in as far as those exist. Distant relative of Gareth Gobblecoque, perhaps? Something about the floppy features and source of humor just makes me want to see him stick around.

 

[Tomstonemale]

Leaving aside all the controversy that I'd never heard of, I'm a little confused as to why Yahtzee is review this game. Slow release period? Baiting fanboys? Just a sort of general "fuck you"?

He literally said why he did it in the video. The part when he said it was sad why he's doing the review.

 

[Madmanonfire]

I didn't expect this but really should I be surprised since the internet got into furore over the patch that removed same sex relationship and also was a gamebreaking glitch that nobody understood, forcing Nintendo to say something stupid. Any publicity is good publicity i guess.

Fixed that for you.

I can't help but think that Yahtzee made this video JUST so he could add "NINTY IS HOMOPHOBIC" to his list of why he hates Nintendo......

Even if this were the case, I'm glad he waited so long to do a video on Tomodachi Life. Now that the issue has passed, people can stop being complete idiots about it and we can have a thread about the game that won't devolve into a nonsensical argument.

Regarding the video, Yahtzee did a good job in showing what the game was about: inserting characters you want into the game and seeing what happens. Great ZP this week.

 

[gamegod25]

This game was certainly an odd curiosity to me. It looked like a clone of Animal Crossing which seemed needlessly redundant since anyone interested in AC isn't likely to jump ship just to play with Mii's instead of cute animals. Additionally its also a 3DS game which only added to the feelings of a fifth wheel to a wagon. This is all before getting to the gameplay that, well...it didn't seem to have any. The few short trailers and clips I had seen had stuff happening but non of it looked like what could be called a game. Even just from a cursory glance it seemed obvious that TL was mindless filler, nothingness trying to give the illusion of substance. If there is a reason for this game (and using that term generously) to exist it's not apparent to me, and I'm someone who does enjoy Animal Crossing...for a little while.

 

[Megazuurkool]

I ordered Jam the 16th of January through my local retailer and it still hasn't arrived! It better be really good now or i'll be pissed.

 

[Blachman201_v1legacy]

I fail to see a problem with excluding LGBTQAQ. I'm obese. Just like 50% of americans and mexicans or 30% of the germans. How many games are there that let me play as a fat guy?
Ask any fat person how they are treated from others. I don't think LGBTQAQ are treated worse then fat people. Am i supposed to protest now until all games include fat people?

And I fail to see how obesity (which is in many ways a lifestyle a person chooses, be it actively or passively) is comparable to sexuality (something a person just is/feels). You can get rid of body fat through changing habits, you can't do the same with sexuality (anyone who suggest otherwise are insane).

That said, yeah, I wish I had a wider variety of choice in player character bodytype, especially in RPGs.

 

[FFMaster]

I've not played Tomodachi life, so I'm not sure how it handles relationships, but presumably every characters has some values regarding their opinion of everyone else in the game. If we assume love is just a strong version of like, you don't need to have any more values. (And even if you do it probably only need one byte more, assuming there's 100 characters in the game we talking 100*100 bytes = about 10k which shouldn't break the bank unless the hardware is already up against the limit) Whenever an event happens between these two characters the values move up or down. If the values pass a certain threshold then there's the chance for a relationship to start. Done this way I don't see that it needs any more memory or time than just doing hetrosexual relationships.

If everyone can match up with everyone then there are more possibilities for relationships so more calculations to do , assuming a 50/50 split and a 10 person "town" before each person would have 5 possible partners, now there are 9. Assuming you do the calculation once from one side to save before you would have a possibility of 25 calculations to do, now you would have around 45 (assuming first person 9 calcs, second 8 cause ones already done etc). I assume this is sort of thing done with the 3 person i love you situations to find the highest 3 friend values.

Again this is all conjecture as we have no idea how it all works, if we were writing everything from scratch yes this would be no extra work, but its not from scratch hence work.

And this is not factoring in any flags set by the user about straight/gay/bi etc either cause if you allow same sex you would probably need a way to set preferred gender somewhere. (again, additional work on the design side)

I don't see that its flat out wrong. I think the idea is that allowing homosexual relationships/marriage shouldn't be regarded as an additional feature. I think its better to say that if its in the design document from the start than it is pretty much exactly the same amount of work.

It likely wasn't in from the start because this is actually about the 4th in the series so would have been built up from old code at a guess. This situation has literally never come up in japan. There were 2 or 3 other ones in the series in Japan before, this is the first one to make it to the west. Again if it was in from the start true, but then you have other design considerations to make (can they have kids, how is it refereed to in game, father and father etc, then need flags to display that in any stats, are there differences in treatment between genders and preference, transgendered individuals etc etc)

Again its more work, not much, but still more, its not as simple as removing a if statement (in my eyes anyway)

Again this is not a problem if its in the design document from the start. As it's a family friendly game you just have
a stork bring the new baby to the (same or different sex) couple, no questions asked.

Assuming this is how you do it fine, but as a external factor we have silly homophobes who don't want any sort of male/male relationships shown to little timmy cause he might actually expand his horizons outside of the values of the parents

This isn't really a coding one, but still one from a family friendly design that you have to consider. To be truly family friendly for the American and British crazies you can't show gay relationships at all or you get protested. Its stupid and its a shame that people are like it, but business considering this... at the design phase.

If you're making a modern life simulation you have to take a stand on this issue. Not having gay marriage isn't being neutral these days (maybe twenty years ago it would have been), its taking a anti-gay stance. As a company you have to decide on one stance or the other, and either way you are going to upset some people. In this case, regardless of anything else, I think this angry middle American mothers kids are going to realize that gay people exist sooner or later whatever she does.

The easy way around this is to have a slider setting the ratio of homo/hetro/bisexual people in the game (Or let it be set on a character by character basis). This allows people to create a completely gay community, a more balanced community or a "traditional" community as they see fit. Will your hypothetical mother be happy with this solution? Probably not, but its now firmly her problem.

Its not a modern life simulator, unless modern life includes people praising the virtual boy or 50 ft versions of friends emerging from the see, or impromptu rap battles. Its not like the Sims or anything like that from what I've seen. Its a toy and a game, not every game needs to make a social statement. This is what Nintendo said (that got them a lot of flak) but its kinda right in some sense, its a game it doesn't need to make any statement on life and how it works. If it does then i'm really missing out on the random signing competitions.

I agree that a slider should be a good idea, as i have said many times same sex relationships should be added.

You seem to be under the impression I've said it shouldn't be added, every single post I've said that it should, but at the same time I don't think they should HAVE to , but do if they choose to make the point.

I've also said it would be more work , and i think the thing that is the point of contention is this. The idea that its more work to exclude than to add, whereas in the whole picture (coding, design, marketing, blowback from press and idiots) its a lot more work to include because of all the extra features you need to include everything properly and not just have a token gesture which is a lot worse in my eyes (its why i dislike the ass cred thing when people said just reskin a man, as male and female physiology is different so re-skinning feels like tokenenization, if your gonna do it , do it properly)

Not going to discuss this any more cause I've basically said everything I can say about it, anyone reading this can see my thoughts on it and why I think Yahtzee is wrong, but maybe pointing this out in a thread about zero punctuation wasn't a good idea a sits not the best place to discuss it unfortunately due to internet based reasons.

[EDIT]

And I fail to see how obesity (which is in many ways a lifestyle a person chooses, be it actively or passively) is comparable to sexuality (something a person just is/feels). You can get rid of body fat through changing habits, you can't do the same with sexuality (anyone who suggest otherwise are insane).

That said, yeah, I wish I had a wider variety of choice in player character bodytype, especially in RPGs.

Obesity isn't always a lifestyle choice, it can be based on many things, sometimes genetics, sometimes illness, but yeah sometimes lifestyle, or a mix of the 3.

The level of comparision would depend on if you think people are born gay or if its a choice based on lifestyle later in life. Which is right, are you born gay or choose to be? I don't know although I think personally that its a mix of the two and its not 100% one or the other. Until we can 100% map the brain and genome and understand it we won't know (and even then the heart wants what the heart wants, in the case of people that fancy a single member of the same sex, but aren't "gay" in the traditional sense).