I didn't think Arkham Knight was that bad, but I do believe there is a special place in hell for those who make grand promises about their game and then proceed to code the amalgamation of shite that is Batman: Arkham Knight for PC. Not sure about slipping Undertale in at the last minute but this is Yahtzee we're talking about.
I kind of expected Splatoon to be on here, seeing that Yahtzee somewhat liked it. I imagined it would be no.5 but this is Yahtzee's show so who am I to argue with him. I do appreciate Rise of the Tomb Raider being on the bland list because it was just more of the same Tomb Raider reboot and not the amazing game Crystal Dynamics hyped it up to be......talk about a let down.
Great, this year I was able to readily distinguish between which ones were top and which ones were bottom. Last year you had to watch it twice to really get it.
For me, it was finally getting past Toriel without killing her. The very end of the demo.
The moment I decided I didn't like the game and wasn't going to play it was when the game called me out for reloading a save in order to leave Toriel alive.
That was the last nail in the coffin. A game is not supposed to remember that sort of thing. When all of the games I've played in my life all behave the exact same way, it's difficult to handle a game that takes perverse pleasure in subverting the most basic of your expectations.
That might not be so bad for your average gamer, but when you've played as many games as I have, it's hard to distance yourself enough to appreciate something like that.
Holy shit, am I turning into that old coot who screams at the kids on my lawn?
I find this comment rather sad, because half of the appeal of Undertale is exactly that: subverting your expectations as well as subverting or deconstructing the most rudimentary game tropes and pulling "what the hell, player" moments when. Seriously, you think the game calling you out for save-scumming to save a character you killed is difficult to handle?
Try reversing the order, by saving Toriel and then reloading to see what happens when you kill her. Flowey knows what you've done, and he knows why.
I really don't want to look like one of those "smug Undertale fans" (yes, I know you apologized for that statement, I'm not trying to pick a fight), but statements like "A game isn't supposed to do X" kind of sums up exactly why you won't like the game. I mean, don't get me wrong, if that's not your cup of tea then it's not your cup of tea and that's fine, but what made the game memorable for many people was that it's probably the finest deconstruction of the medium, even assuming that it's mediocre on all other fronts.
Though I suppose one could argue that that's just because there's very few contenders for that title in existence aside from Spec Ops anyway *shrugs*.
Edit: I just find this comment very... odd. You're not the first person to say that he doesn't understand why people like Undertale, but I've never seen someone go from that straight to "Nope nope nope, I don't want anything to do with a game that pulls that kind of crazy shit on me". At the very least you now have SOME idea of what the hype is all about, yeah?
They're also kinda annoying.
I don't believe anything is above review, and when people tell me that I immediately become suspicious of the thing in question.
I find this comment rather sad, because half of the appeal of Undertale is exactly that: subverting your expectations as well as subverting or deconstructing the most rudimentary game tropes and pulling "what the hell, player" moments when. Seriously, you think the game calling you out for save-scumming to save a character you killed is difficult to handle?
Try reversing the order, by saving Toriel and then reloading to see what happens when you kill her. Flowey knows what you've done, and he knows why.
I really don't want to look like one of those "smug Undertale fans" (yes, I know you apologized for that statement, I'm not trying to pick a fight), but statements like "A game isn't supposed to do X" kind of sums up exactly why you won't like the game. I mean, don't get me wrong, if that's not your cup of tea then it's not your cup of tea and that's fine, but what made the game memorable for many people was that it's probably the finest deconstruction of the medium, even assuming that it's mediocre on all other fronts.
Though I suppose one could argue that that's just because there's very few contenders for that title in existence aside from Spec Ops anyway *shrugs*.
Edit: I just find this comment very... odd. You're not the first person to say that he doesn't understand why people like Undertale, but I've never seen someone go from that straight to "Nope nope nope, I don't want anything to do with a game that pulls that kind of crazy shit on me". At the very least you now have SOME idea of what the hype is all about, yeah?
Perhaps. I'm still not sure. I'm just convinced that it can't be the only reason. Genre deconstructions don't typically get this rabid of a fanbase. For example, KotOR 2 was not only a deconstruction of the Star Wars universe, but also of RPGs in general. Your companions are aware that something is controlling them and (sometimes) forcing them to go against everything that they stand for. Mira is probably the most prominent example; she tells the PC point blank that the fact that she does what the PC does without thinking utterly terrifies her. The game even explains why you get stronger when you kill people.
But despite all of this, most of KotOR 2's praise came in hindsight, since the game itself was incomplete and buggy. Undertale's praise came almost immediately, and hasn't stopped since the game launched. Is it because the game is functional? Is it because people think that something is good simply because it is different? Is it just a case of something going viral? Do people just enjoy having the hobby that they love torn to shreds before their very eyes? Or do people just fawn over anything with 8-bit graphics and a quirky, LOL-so-randum sense of humor? I don't know.
But, again, it was less about having my expectations subverted and more about a) the things that were subverted, notably the inner workings that basically don't do what you tell them to, and b) the pure, childlike glee that the game takes in attacking video game tropes. When I reload a game, I have given the game a command to forget everything that I have done to that point, and Undertale doesn't do that. Call me a control freak, but one of the quickest ways to get me to quit playing a game is for the game to not do what I tell it to. I mean, I play games to have an environment where everything works the same way: saving games, loading games, and having them save and load the same way across the medium. If they don't save or load the same way, that environment is gone, and my reason for playing the game doesn't exist anymore.
More importantly, Undertale takes no small amount of pleasure in how it attacks how players play their games. It's as if someone who hated video games decided to make a game that explained why he hated games, but the creator had enough attention to detail, was a good enough writer, and had enough knowledge of game tropes to create Undertale. That's not what happened, but the sheer amount of joy that the game takes in subverting your expectations feels almost malicious.
Most genre deconstructions attack the weaknesses of their chosen genre or medium. Undertale attacks the strength of video games: player agency. The freedom to play a game however you want, and to experience everything a game has to offer. You can do that with Undertale, but the game will certainly take every opportunity to call you a monster for doing so.
Undertale is absolutely deserving of the best game of the year, and the lengths some people will go to in order to assure you *they* don't think Undertale is that good are just as impressive.
For me, it was finally getting past Toriel without killing her. The very end of the demo.
The moment I decided I didn't like the game and wasn't going to play it was when the game called me out for reloading a save in order to leave Toriel alive.
That was the last nail in the coffin. A game is not supposed to remember that sort of thing. When all of the games I've played in my life all behave the exact same way, it's difficult to handle a game that takes perverse pleasure in subverting the most basic of your expectations.
Yeah, that's the part when I knew Undertale was truly magical. It's like everything you said was bad are the things that make the game truly great. You act like the game was personally insulting you and got angry, when it seems the point it was making hit a little too close to home.
Undertale is absolutely deserving of the best game of the year, and the lengths some people will go to in order to assure you *they* don't think Undertale is that good are just as impressive.
It's really been fascinating watching people react to Undertale. Between blatantly false claims about how the fanbase is ruining their internet, and the way they'll jump at any opportunity to state, with gleeful pride, how much they don't care about it.
It's like if I was walking down the street with a friend, telling them how much I enjoy beer, and a random stranger jumped into our path and says "Well, I don't LIKE beer!" *folds arms with a smug smile*
I find this comment rather sad, because half of the appeal of Undertale is exactly that: subverting your expectations as well as subverting or deconstructing the most rudimentary game tropes and pulling "what the hell, player" moments when. Seriously, you think the game calling you out for save-scumming to save a character you killed is difficult to handle?
Try reversing the order, by saving Toriel and then reloading to see what happens when you kill her. Flowey knows what you've done, and he knows why.
I really don't want to look like one of those "smug Undertale fans" (yes, I know you apologized for that statement, I'm not trying to pick a fight), but statements like "A game isn't supposed to do X" kind of sums up exactly why you won't like the game. I mean, don't get me wrong, if that's not your cup of tea then it's not your cup of tea and that's fine, but what made the game memorable for many people was that it's probably the finest deconstruction of the medium, even assuming that it's mediocre on all other fronts.
Though I suppose one could argue that that's just because there's very few contenders for that title in existence aside from Spec Ops anyway *shrugs*.
Edit: I just find this comment very... odd. You're not the first person to say that he doesn't understand why people like Undertale, but I've never seen someone go from that straight to "Nope nope nope, I don't want anything to do with a game that pulls that kind of crazy shit on me". At the very least you now have SOME idea of what the hype is all about, yeah?
Perhaps. I'm still not sure. I'm just convinced that it can't be the only reason. Genre deconstructions don't typically get this rabid of a fanbase. For example, KotOR 2 was not only a deconstruction of the Star Wars universe, but also of RPGs in general. Your companions are aware that something is controlling them and (sometimes) forcing them to go against everything that they stand for. Mira is probably the most prominent example; she tells the PC point blank that the fact that she does what the PC does without thinking utterly terrifies her. The game even explains why you get stronger when you kill people.
But despite all of this, most of KotOR 2's praise came in hindsight, since the game itself was incomplete and buggy. Undertale's praise came almost immediately, and hasn't stopped since the game launched. Is it because the game is functional? Is it because people think that something is good simply because it is different? Is it just a case of something going viral? Do people just enjoy having the hobby that they love torn to shreds before their very eyes? Or do people just fawn over anything with 8-bit graphics and a quirky, LOL-so-randum sense of humor? I don't know.
But, again, it was less about having my expectations subverted and more about a) the things that were subverted, notably the inner workings that basically don't do what you tell them to, and b) the pure, childlike glee that the game takes in attacking video game tropes. When I reload a game, I have given the game a command to forget everything that I have done to that point, and Undertale doesn't do that. Call me a control freak, but one of the quickest ways to get me to quit playing a game is for the game to not do what I tell it to. I mean, I play games to have an environment where everything works the same way: saving games, loading games, and having them save and load the same way across the medium. If they don't save or load the same way, that environment is gone, and my reason for playing the game doesn't exist anymore.
More importantly, Undertale takes no small amount of pleasure in how it attacks how players play their games. It's as if someone who hated video games decided to make a game that explained why he hated games, but the creator had enough attention to detail, was a good enough writer, and had enough knowledge of game tropes to create Undertale. That's not what happened, but the sheer amount of joy that the game takes in subverting your expectations feels almost malicious.
Most genre deconstructions attack the weaknesses of their chosen genre or medium. Undertale attacks the strength of video games: player agency. The freedom to play a game however you want, and to experience everything a game has to offer. You can do that with Undertale, but the game will certainly take every opportunity to call you a monster for doing so.
Dude, don't take this personally, but I think you are letting what Flowey said to you get to you too much. I mean remember your first encounter with him(QM) The dude is a douche no matter how you spin it. He wants to miss with you and not to mention bring up a plot point in the very game
It's really been fascinating watching people react to Undertale. Between blatantly false claims about how the fanbase is ruining their internet, and the way they'll jump at any opportunity to state, with gleeful pride, how much they don't care about it.
It's like if I was walking down the street with a friend, telling them how much I enjoy beer, and a random stranger jumped into our path and says "Well, I don't LIKE beer!" *folds arms with a smug smile*
I think the Hatred controversy was more fascinating. Sure, we had countless overreactions against violent videogame trailers (in other words, practically for nothing) in the past. But this was the first one where I saw members from the gaming comunity being a large part of the outrage. Shame that the game wasn't even that good (or maybe how lucky; that way the outrage died along with the hype).
Undertale is absolutely deserving of the best game of the year, and the lengths some people will go to in order to assure you *they* don't think Undertale is that good are just as impressive.
Errr... No? I just said it's stupid to say that other people are wrong on a matter of opinion. Where did you get me saying I hate the game? Where did you see me say I'm angry people like it? No what is annoying is when people say that "X GAME IS THE BEST, IF YOU DON'T LIKE X GAME YOU'RE WRONG AND STUPID AND SMELL AND OBVIOUSLY ARE STUPID."
Undertale is absolutely deserving of the best game of the year, and the lengths some people will go to in order to assure you *they* don't think Undertale is that good are just as impressive.
It's really been fascinating watching people react to Undertale. Between blatantly false claims about how the fanbase is ruining their internet, and the way they'll jump at any opportunity to state, with gleeful pride, how much they don't care about it.
It's like if I was walking down the street with a friend, telling them how much I enjoy beer, and a random stranger jumped into our path and says "Well, I don't LIKE beer!" *folds arms with a smug smile*
Except what I did was the equivalent of being at a table with a group of people talking and one person says "I like beer" and then someone else says "I don't like beer, and anyone who does like beer is objectively wrong and is bending over backwards to find reasons to like it and they're stupid." and then I pipe up saying "Woah woah woah, people can like beer, people can hate it."
I've never seen someone go OUT of their way to say undertale sucks, but I have had plenty of people go out of their way saying it's awesome. Obviously there are people who in response to people saying it's awesome saying it sucks, but that's for literally everything. There is ALWAYS going to be a group who dislikes something other people like.
EDIT: For the record I don't care if you like Undertale, I don't care if you hate it. So long as you don't try and say YOU MUST HATE IT or YOU MUST LOVE IT. People trying to force others into their subjective opinions is the most annoying thing.
Yeah, that's the part when I knew Undertale was truly magical. It's like everything you said was bad are the things that make the game truly great. You act like the game was personally insulting you and got angry, when it seems the point it was making hit a little too close to home.
Just to clarify, I never said the game was bad (my comments about the fanbase notwithstanding). I just don't like it. 8-bit graphics don't appeal to me, and I'm not the sort of person who really listened to the music while playing Mario.
That being said...you're probably right.
It's hard to distance myself from my video games, since they truly are a central part of my life. It's the thing I do when I'm tired of being around other people and need to recharge my social batteries, and it's been this way for almost all of my life. When the most basic things I come to expect from every video game get manipulated, it tends to throw me for a loop. It's difficult to appreciate what this game does when it plays with the very foundation of my reason for playing video games.
Flowey berating me for save-scumming hit painfully close to home.
kenu12345 said:
Dude, don't take this personally, but I think you are letting what Flowey said to you get to you too much. I mean remember your first encounter with him(QM) The dude is a douche no matter how you spin it. He wants to miss with you and not to mention bring up a plot point in the very game
Ehhh...you may also be right, but that's not really the point I was trying to make. It was less about what Flowey was saying and more about me freaking out that the game was remembering something that it typically forgets when I go back and reload a save.
Is there a certain point where Undertale "clicks"? That "wow" moment where it becomes evident that this game is something special?
I decided to give it a shot after this amazing review and I'm not sure I get it. I'm about 2 hours in, around Snowdin, and I don't think I've ever been this bored and mizerable while playing a game before. Trying to decide whether to cut my losses or hang in there and hope something changes.
I find this comment rather sad, because half of the appeal of Undertale is exactly that: subverting your expectations as well as subverting or deconstructing the most rudimentary game tropes and pulling "what the hell, player" moments when. Seriously, you think the game calling you out for save-scumming to save a character you killed is difficult to handle?
Try reversing the order, by saving Toriel and then reloading to see what happens when you kill her. Flowey knows what you've done, and he knows why.
I really don't want to look like one of those "smug Undertale fans" (yes, I know you apologized for that statement, I'm not trying to pick a fight), but statements like "A game isn't supposed to do X" kind of sums up exactly why you won't like the game. I mean, don't get me wrong, if that's not your cup of tea then it's not your cup of tea and that's fine, but what made the game memorable for many people was that it's probably the finest deconstruction of the medium, even assuming that it's mediocre on all other fronts.
Though I suppose one could argue that that's just because there's very few contenders for that title in existence aside from Spec Ops anyway *shrugs*.
Edit: I just find this comment very... odd. You're not the first person to say that he doesn't understand why people like Undertale, but I've never seen someone go from that straight to "Nope nope nope, I don't want anything to do with a game that pulls that kind of crazy shit on me". At the very least you now have SOME idea of what the hype is all about, yeah?
Perhaps. I'm still not sure. I'm just convinced that it can't be the only reason. Genre deconstructions don't typically get this rabid of a fanbase. For example, KotOR 2 was not only a deconstruction of the Star Wars universe, but also of RPGs in general. Your companions are aware that something is controlling them and (sometimes) forcing them to go against everything that they stand for. Mira is probably the most prominent example; she tells the PC point blank that the fact that she does what the PC does without thinking utterly terrifies her. The game even explains why you get stronger when you kill people.
But despite all of this, most of KotOR 2's praise came in hindsight, since the game itself was incomplete and buggy. Undertale's praise came almost immediately, and hasn't stopped since the game launched. Is it because the game is functional? Is it because people think that something is good simply because it is different? Is it just a case of something going viral? Do people just enjoy having the hobby that they love torn to shreds before their very eyes? Or do people just fawn over anything with 8-bit graphics and a quirky, LOL-so-randum sense of humor? I don't know.
Well, I did say "half of the reason". It's probably a mix of the stuff you mentioned in the second half of your comment and then some.
But, again, it was less about having my expectations subverted and more about a) the things that were subverted, notably the inner workings that basically don't do what you tell them to, and b) the pure, childlike glee that the game takes in attacking video game tropes. When I reload a game, I have given the game a command to forget everything that I have done to that point, and Undertale doesn't do that. Call me a control freak, but one of the quickest ways to get me to quit playing a game is for the game to not do what I tell it to. I mean, I play games to have an environment where everything works the same way: saving games, loading games, and having them save and load the same way across the medium. If they don't save or load the same way, that environment is gone, and my reason for playing the game doesn't exist anymore.
More importantly, Undertale takes no small amount of pleasure in how it attacks how players play their games. It's as if someone who hated video games decided to make a game that explained why he hated games, but the creator had enough attention to detail, was a good enough writer, and had enough knowledge of game tropes to create Undertale. That's not what happened, but the sheer amount of joy that the game takes in subverting your expectations feels almost malicious.
Most genre deconstructions attack the weaknesses of their chosen genre or medium. Undertale attacks the strength of video games: player agency. The freedom to play a game however you want, and to experience everything a game has to offer. You can do that with Undertale, but the game will certainly take every opportunity to call you a monster for doing so.
I have mixed feelings about your "I want the game to do what I tell it to do" statement. In the technical and gameplay side I would completely agree: nothing makes me rage faster than whatever avatar I'm controlling doesn't perform as intended, especially when multi-button moves (the main reason I despise most fighter games aside from Smash Bros) or context-sensitive keys are involved (in shooters in particular, nothing's more infuriating than dying because the "hide behind cover" and "get the hell out of dodge" options are mapped to the same button). To a lesser extent, I don't like moments where I feel that I couldn't have possibly seen it coming: I'm much happier being knocked off a bridge by an angry troll if I was dumb enough to pick a fight with one sleeping in the middle in clear view, rather than because it suddenly vaulted over the side and punted me off. Dark Souls is an interesting example: there's a lot of ambushes, though they're usually telegraphed, or at least the incredibly cheap ones aren't also immediately fatal.
On the other hand, I took that moment of the game revealing that it knows what you do between manual saves as a meta-plot twist, where the game was intentionally screwing with you. Emphasis on "intentionally": I mean, it's obvious to see that the moment was completely planned, rather than because you or the game fucked something up.
I will say, though, that you pretty much hit the nail on the head when you said that Undertale (or at least that goddamn flower) is mainly a deconstruction of how people play games. And coming from someone who's probably more than a little obsessed with games in general, I do find it interesting for someone to say "I don't like this because games are a huge part of my life and this hit a little too close to home for me", since (as someone else said) it's exactly the reason why I like the game.
That all said, I will point out that Flowey was designed from the ground up (is that a pun?) to be a massive prick.
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