Zero Punctuation: Top 5 Games of 2015

[SlumlordThanatos]

I find this comment rather sad, because half of the appeal of Undertale is exactly that: subverting your expectations as well as subverting or deconstructing the most rudimentary game tropes and pulling "what the hell, player" moments when. Seriously, you think the game calling you out for save-scumming to save a character you killed is difficult to handle?

Spoiler: Technically a spoiler, but it's not something most players will find unless they go out of their way to experiment, especially not if they have the full game.

Try reversing the order, by saving Toriel and then reloading to see what happens when you kill her. Flowey knows what you've done, and he knows why.

I really don't want to look like one of those "smug Undertale fans" (yes, I know you apologized for that statement, I'm not trying to pick a fight), but statements like "A game isn't supposed to do X" kind of sums up exactly why you won't like the game. I mean, don't get me wrong, if that's not your cup of tea then it's not your cup of tea and that's fine, but what made the game memorable for many people was that it's probably the finest deconstruction of the medium, even assuming that it's mediocre on all other fronts.

Though I suppose one could argue that that's just because there's very few contenders for that title in existence aside from Spec Ops anyway *shrugs*.

Edit: I just find this comment very... odd. You're not the first person to say that he doesn't understand why people like Undertale, but I've never seen someone go from that straight to "Nope nope nope, I don't want anything to do with a game that pulls that kind of crazy shit on me". At the very least you now have SOME idea of what the hype is all about, yeah?

Perhaps. I'm still not sure. I'm just convinced that it can't be the only reason. Genre deconstructions don't typically get this rabid of a fanbase. For example, KotOR 2 was not only a deconstruction of the Star Wars universe, but also of RPGs in general. Your companions are aware that something is controlling them and (sometimes) forcing them to go against everything that they stand for. Mira is probably the most prominent example; she tells the PC point blank that the fact that she does what the PC does without thinking utterly terrifies her. The game even explains why you get stronger when you kill people.

But despite all of this, most of KotOR 2's praise came in hindsight, since the game itself was incomplete and buggy. Undertale's praise came almost immediately, and hasn't stopped since the game launched. Is it because the game is functional? Is it because people think that something is good simply because it is different? Is it just a case of something going viral? Do people just enjoy having the hobby that they love torn to shreds before their very eyes? Or do people just fawn over anything with 8-bit graphics and a quirky, LOL-so-randum sense of humor? I don't know.

But, again, it was less about having my expectations subverted and more about a) the things that were subverted, notably the inner workings that basically don't do what you tell them to, and b) the pure, childlike glee that the game takes in attacking video game tropes. When I reload a game, I have given the game a command to forget everything that I have done to that point, and Undertale doesn't do that. Call me a control freak, but one of the quickest ways to get me to quit playing a game is for the game to not do what I tell it to. I mean, I play games to have an environment where everything works the same way: saving games, loading games, and having them save and load the same way across the medium. If they don't save or load the same way, that environment is gone, and my reason for playing the game doesn't exist anymore.

More importantly, Undertale takes no small amount of pleasure in how it attacks how players play their games. It's as if someone who hated video games decided to make a game that explained why he hated games, but the creator had enough attention to detail, was a good enough writer, and had enough knowledge of game tropes to create Undertale. That's not what happened, but the sheer amount of joy that the game takes in subverting your expectations feels almost malicious.

Most genre deconstructions attack the weaknesses of their chosen genre or medium. Undertale attacks the strength of video games: player agency. The freedom to play a game however you want, and to experience everything a game has to offer. You can do that with Undertale, but the game will certainly take every opportunity to call you a monster for doing so.

 

[Thanatos2k]

Undertale is absolutely deserving of the best game of the year, and the lengths some people will go to in order to assure you *they* don't think Undertale is that good are just as impressive.

Yes heaven forbid people just don't like the game...

I haven't played undertale

As I said, the lengths they will go to are amazing. Look here, we have someone angry that others like a game that he hasn't even played!

 

[Thanatos2k]

And it has some big special moments I can't spoil.

For me, it was finally getting past Toriel without killing her. The very end of the demo.

The moment I decided I didn't like the game and wasn't going to play it was when the game called me out for reloading a save in order to leave Toriel alive.

That was the last nail in the coffin. A game is not supposed to remember that sort of thing. When all of the games I've played in my life all behave the exact same way, it's difficult to handle a game that takes perverse pleasure in subverting the most basic of your expectations.

Yeah, that's the part when I knew Undertale was truly magical. It's like everything you said was bad are the things that make the game truly great. You act like the game was personally insulting you and got angry, when it seems the point it was making hit a little too close to home.

 

[Maphysto]

Undertale is absolutely deserving of the best game of the year, and the lengths some people will go to in order to assure you *they* don't think Undertale is that good are just as impressive.

Yes heaven forbid people just don't like the game...

I haven't played undertale

As I said, the lengths they will go to are amazing. Look here, we have someone angry that others like a game that he hasn't even played!

It's really been fascinating watching people react to Undertale. Between blatantly false claims about how the fanbase is ruining their internet, and the way they'll jump at any opportunity to state, with gleeful pride, how much they don't care about it.

It's like if I was walking down the street with a friend, telling them how much I enjoy beer, and a random stranger jumped into our path and says "Well, I don't LIKE beer!" *folds arms with a smug smile*

 

[kenu12345]

I find this comment rather sad, because half of the appeal of Undertale is exactly that: subverting your expectations as well as subverting or deconstructing the most rudimentary game tropes and pulling "what the hell, player" moments when. Seriously, you think the game calling you out for save-scumming to save a character you killed is difficult to handle?

Spoiler: Technically a spoiler, but it's not something most players will find unless they go out of their way to experiment, especially not if they have the full game.

Try reversing the order, by saving Toriel and then reloading to see what happens when you kill her. Flowey knows what you've done, and he knows why.

I really don't want to look like one of those "smug Undertale fans" (yes, I know you apologized for that statement, I'm not trying to pick a fight), but statements like "A game isn't supposed to do X" kind of sums up exactly why you won't like the game. I mean, don't get me wrong, if that's not your cup of tea then it's not your cup of tea and that's fine, but what made the game memorable for many people was that it's probably the finest deconstruction of the medium, even assuming that it's mediocre on all other fronts.

Though I suppose one could argue that that's just because there's very few contenders for that title in existence aside from Spec Ops anyway *shrugs*.

Edit: I just find this comment very... odd. You're not the first person to say that he doesn't understand why people like Undertale, but I've never seen someone go from that straight to "Nope nope nope, I don't want anything to do with a game that pulls that kind of crazy shit on me". At the very least you now have SOME idea of what the hype is all about, yeah?

Perhaps. I'm still not sure. I'm just convinced that it can't be the only reason. Genre deconstructions don't typically get this rabid of a fanbase. For example, KotOR 2 was not only a deconstruction of the Star Wars universe, but also of RPGs in general. Your companions are aware that something is controlling them and (sometimes) forcing them to go against everything that they stand for. Mira is probably the most prominent example; she tells the PC point blank that the fact that she does what the PC does without thinking utterly terrifies her. The game even explains why you get stronger when you kill people.

But despite all of this, most of KotOR 2's praise came in hindsight, since the game itself was incomplete and buggy. Undertale's praise came almost immediately, and hasn't stopped since the game launched. Is it because the game is functional? Is it because people think that something is good simply because it is different? Is it just a case of something going viral? Do people just enjoy having the hobby that they love torn to shreds before their very eyes? Or do people just fawn over anything with 8-bit graphics and a quirky, LOL-so-randum sense of humor? I don't know.

But, again, it was less about having my expectations subverted and more about a) the things that were subverted, notably the inner workings that basically don't do what you tell them to, and b) the pure, childlike glee that the game takes in attacking video game tropes. When I reload a game, I have given the game a command to forget everything that I have done to that point, and Undertale doesn't do that. Call me a control freak, but one of the quickest ways to get me to quit playing a game is for the game to not do what I tell it to. I mean, I play games to have an environment where everything works the same way: saving games, loading games, and having them save and load the same way across the medium. If they don't save or load the same way, that environment is gone, and my reason for playing the game doesn't exist anymore.

More importantly, Undertale takes no small amount of pleasure in how it attacks how players play their games. It's as if someone who hated video games decided to make a game that explained why he hated games, but the creator had enough attention to detail, was a good enough writer, and had enough knowledge of game tropes to create Undertale. That's not what happened, but the sheer amount of joy that the game takes in subverting your expectations feels almost malicious.

Most genre deconstructions attack the weaknesses of their chosen genre or medium. Undertale attacks the strength of video games: player agency. The freedom to play a game however you want, and to experience everything a game has to offer. You can do that with Undertale, but the game will certainly take every opportunity to call you a monster for doing so.

Dude, don't take this personally, but I think you are letting what Flowey said to you get to you too much. I mean remember your first encounter with him(QM) The dude is a douche no matter how you spin it. He wants to miss with you and not to mention bring up a plot point in the very game

 

[CaitSeith]

It's really been fascinating watching people react to Undertale. Between blatantly false claims about how the fanbase is ruining their internet, and the way they'll jump at any opportunity to state, with gleeful pride, how much they don't care about it.

It's like if I was walking down the street with a friend, telling them how much I enjoy beer, and a random stranger jumped into our path and says "Well, I don't LIKE beer!" *folds arms with a smug smile*

I think the Hatred controversy was more fascinating. Sure, we had countless overreactions against violent videogame trailers (in other words, practically for nothing) in the past. But this was the first one where I saw members from the gaming comunity being a large part of the outrage. Shame that the game wasn't even that good (or maybe how lucky; that way the outrage died along with the hype).

 

[Qizx]

Undertale is absolutely deserving of the best game of the year, and the lengths some people will go to in order to assure you *they* don't think Undertale is that good are just as impressive.

Yes heaven forbid people just don't like the game...

I haven't played undertale

As I said, the lengths they will go to are amazing. Look here, we have someone angry that others like a game that he hasn't even played!

Errr... No? I just said it's stupid to say that other people are wrong on a matter of opinion. Where did you get me saying I hate the game? Where did you see me say I'm angry people like it? No what is annoying is when people say that "X GAME IS THE BEST, IF YOU DON'T LIKE X GAME YOU'RE WRONG AND STUPID AND SMELL AND OBVIOUSLY ARE STUPID."

 

[Qizx]

Undertale is absolutely deserving of the best game of the year, and the lengths some people will go to in order to assure you *they* don't think Undertale is that good are just as impressive.

Yes heaven forbid people just don't like the game...

I haven't played undertale

As I said, the lengths they will go to are amazing. Look here, we have someone angry that others like a game that he hasn't even played!

It's really been fascinating watching people react to Undertale. Between blatantly false claims about how the fanbase is ruining their internet, and the way they'll jump at any opportunity to state, with gleeful pride, how much they don't care about it.

It's like if I was walking down the street with a friend, telling them how much I enjoy beer, and a random stranger jumped into our path and says "Well, I don't LIKE beer!" *folds arms with a smug smile*

Except what I did was the equivalent of being at a table with a group of people talking and one person says "I like beer" and then someone else says "I don't like beer, and anyone who does like beer is objectively wrong and is bending over backwards to find reasons to like it and they're stupid." and then I pipe up saying "Woah woah woah, people can like beer, people can hate it."

I've never seen someone go OUT of their way to say undertale sucks, but I have had plenty of people go out of their way saying it's awesome. Obviously there are people who in response to people saying it's awesome saying it sucks, but that's for literally everything. There is ALWAYS going to be a group who dislikes something other people like.

EDIT: For the record I don't care if you like Undertale, I don't care if you hate it. So long as you don't try and say YOU MUST HATE IT or YOU MUST LOVE IT. People trying to force others into their subjective opinions is the most annoying thing.

 

[SlumlordThanatos]

Yeah, that's the part when I knew Undertale was truly magical. It's like everything you said was bad are the things that make the game truly great. You act like the game was personally insulting you and got angry, when it seems the point it was making hit a little too close to home.

Just to clarify, I never said the game was bad (my comments about the fanbase notwithstanding). I just don't like it. 8-bit graphics don't appeal to me, and I'm not the sort of person who really listened to the music while playing Mario.

That being said...you're probably right.

It's hard to distance myself from my video games, since they truly are a central part of my life. It's the thing I do when I'm tired of being around other people and need to recharge my social batteries, and it's been this way for almost all of my life. When the most basic things I come to expect from every video game get manipulated, it tends to throw me for a loop. It's difficult to appreciate what this game does when it plays with the very foundation of my reason for playing video games.

Flowey berating me for save-scumming hit painfully close to home.

Dude, don't take this personally, but I think you are letting what Flowey said to you get to you too much. I mean remember your first encounter with him(QM) The dude is a douche no matter how you spin it. He wants to miss with you and not to mention bring up a plot point in the very game

Ehhh...you may also be right, but that's not really the point I was trying to make. It was less about what Flowey was saying and more about me freaking out that the game was remembering something that it typically forgets when I go back and reload a save.

Though Flowey being abrasive contributed.

 

[Razzie.Putin]

Is there a certain point where Undertale "clicks"? That "wow" moment where it becomes evident that this game is something special?

I decided to give it a shot after this amazing review and I'm not sure I get it. I'm about 2 hours in, around Snowdin, and I don't think I've ever been this bored and mizerable while playing a game before. Trying to decide whether to cut my losses or hang in there and hope something changes.

 

[Infernal Lawyer]

I find this comment rather sad, because half of the appeal of Undertale is exactly that: subverting your expectations as well as subverting or deconstructing the most rudimentary game tropes and pulling "what the hell, player" moments when. Seriously, you think the game calling you out for save-scumming to save a character you killed is difficult to handle?

Spoiler: Technically a spoiler, but it's not something most players will find unless they go out of their way to experiment, especially not if they have the full game.

Try reversing the order, by saving Toriel and then reloading to see what happens when you kill her. Flowey knows what you've done, and he knows why.

I really don't want to look like one of those "smug Undertale fans" (yes, I know you apologized for that statement, I'm not trying to pick a fight), but statements like "A game isn't supposed to do X" kind of sums up exactly why you won't like the game. I mean, don't get me wrong, if that's not your cup of tea then it's not your cup of tea and that's fine, but what made the game memorable for many people was that it's probably the finest deconstruction of the medium, even assuming that it's mediocre on all other fronts.

Though I suppose one could argue that that's just because there's very few contenders for that title in existence aside from Spec Ops anyway *shrugs*.

Edit: I just find this comment very... odd. You're not the first person to say that he doesn't understand why people like Undertale, but I've never seen someone go from that straight to "Nope nope nope, I don't want anything to do with a game that pulls that kind of crazy shit on me". At the very least you now have SOME idea of what the hype is all about, yeah?

Perhaps. I'm still not sure. I'm just convinced that it can't be the only reason. Genre deconstructions don't typically get this rabid of a fanbase. For example, KotOR 2 was not only a deconstruction of the Star Wars universe, but also of RPGs in general. Your companions are aware that something is controlling them and (sometimes) forcing them to go against everything that they stand for. Mira is probably the most prominent example; she tells the PC point blank that the fact that she does what the PC does without thinking utterly terrifies her. The game even explains why you get stronger when you kill people.

But despite all of this, most of KotOR 2's praise came in hindsight, since the game itself was incomplete and buggy. Undertale's praise came almost immediately, and hasn't stopped since the game launched. Is it because the game is functional? Is it because people think that something is good simply because it is different? Is it just a case of something going viral? Do people just enjoy having the hobby that they love torn to shreds before their very eyes? Or do people just fawn over anything with 8-bit graphics and a quirky, LOL-so-randum sense of humor? I don't know.

Well, I did say "half of the reason". It's probably a mix of the stuff you mentioned in the second half of your comment and then some.

But, again, it was less about having my expectations subverted and more about a) the things that were subverted, notably the inner workings that basically don't do what you tell them to, and b) the pure, childlike glee that the game takes in attacking video game tropes. When I reload a game, I have given the game a command to forget everything that I have done to that point, and Undertale doesn't do that. Call me a control freak, but one of the quickest ways to get me to quit playing a game is for the game to not do what I tell it to. I mean, I play games to have an environment where everything works the same way: saving games, loading games, and having them save and load the same way across the medium. If they don't save or load the same way, that environment is gone, and my reason for playing the game doesn't exist anymore.

More importantly, Undertale takes no small amount of pleasure in how it attacks how players play their games. It's as if someone who hated video games decided to make a game that explained why he hated games, but the creator had enough attention to detail, was a good enough writer, and had enough knowledge of game tropes to create Undertale. That's not what happened, but the sheer amount of joy that the game takes in subverting your expectations feels almost malicious.

Most genre deconstructions attack the weaknesses of their chosen genre or medium. Undertale attacks the strength of video games: player agency. The freedom to play a game however you want, and to experience everything a game has to offer. You can do that with Undertale, but the game will certainly take every opportunity to call you a monster for doing so.

I have mixed feelings about your "I want the game to do what I tell it to do" statement. In the technical and gameplay side I would completely agree: nothing makes me rage faster than whatever avatar I'm controlling doesn't perform as intended, especially when multi-button moves (the main reason I despise most fighter games aside from Smash Bros) or context-sensitive keys are involved (in shooters in particular, nothing's more infuriating than dying because the "hide behind cover" and "get the hell out of dodge" options are mapped to the same button). To a lesser extent, I don't like moments where I feel that I couldn't have possibly seen it coming: I'm much happier being knocked off a bridge by an angry troll if I was dumb enough to pick a fight with one sleeping in the middle in clear view, rather than because it suddenly vaulted over the side and punted me off. Dark Souls is an interesting example: there's a lot of ambushes, though they're usually telegraphed, or at least the incredibly cheap ones aren't also immediately fatal.

On the other hand, I took that moment of the game revealing that it knows what you do between manual saves as a meta-plot twist, where the game was intentionally screwing with you. Emphasis on "intentionally": I mean, it's obvious to see that the moment was completely planned, rather than because you or the game fucked something up.

I will say, though, that you pretty much hit the nail on the head when you said that Undertale (or at least that goddamn flower) is mainly a deconstruction of how people play games. And coming from someone who's probably more than a little obsessed with games in general, I do find it interesting for someone to say "I don't like this because games are a huge part of my life and this hit a little too close to home for me", since (as someone else said) it's exactly the reason why I like the game.

That all said, I will point out that Flowey was designed from the ground up (is that a pun?) to be a massive prick.

 

[Infernal Lawyer]

Is there a certain point where Undertale "clicks"? That "wow" moment where it becomes evident that this game is something special?

I decided to give it a shot after this amazing review and I'm not sure I get it. I'm about 2 hours in, around Snowdin, and I don't think I've ever been this bored and mizerable while playing a game before. Trying to decide whether to cut my losses or hang in there and hope something changes.

Some say that the game clicks around the mid-end point, but if you're as miserable as you claim you are I wouldn't recommend sticking around just to see what the hype is about.

I would recommend watching a Let's Play, particularly from someone you know is good at making great videos on games you normally don't care for.

 

[gorfias]

I never played BF2 online myself, I spent all my time in single-player and had quite a bit of fun.

The third game just looks creatively bankrupt and lazy in the worst way.

I hope my buddy likes it. He got a Darth Vader PS4 (looks amazing) but refuses to play online. It looks like 2 has plenty to do off line. 3? Not so much. Reminds me a little of Star Wars Episode 3


You will smash robots till you can smash robots no more.

Dang, can't find the Gamespot Alex Navaro review which is hilarious.

Online though? Unbelievably pretty and good enough that my nephew played nonstop for a number of hours on his last visit. I play for maybe 15 min and then play something else.

 

[Barbas]

Damn, wasn't that a low year. Yahtzee had to make a second list for games he didn't like. Quite the rocky year for the worst list though, It's pathetic how the games with the largest funds and the most expensive talent (not necessarily the best talent) can turn into such boring or just poorly designed slop that overshadows all the games made with actual passion coming from human beings.

Damn this is depressing.

I imagine that since they have so many moving parts to worry about, the cost and the number of things that can go wrong both increase exponentially, so they carry the risk of turning out like something totally bland that feels like it was designed by a committee. With more money invested into something, the investors are probably closer behind the shoulder of the designers. That's my take on it, anyway.

Like films, charging people on their way in doesn't provide as accurate an indicator of audience approval as charging them on their way out. I think it says more about the success of the marketing campaign than it does the actual result.

 

[Weasker]

Is there a certain point where Undertale "clicks"? That "wow" moment where it becomes evident that this game is something special?

I decided to give it a shot after this amazing review and I'm not sure I get it. I'm about 2 hours in, around Snowdin, and I don't think I've ever been this bored and mizerable while playing a game before. Trying to decide whether to cut my losses or hang in there and hope something changes.

If the skeleton brothers didn't make you laugh then this game probably just isn't for you, man. You have a different sense of humor, and that's ok.

 

[Miral]

FWIW, Undertale is a game that I greatly enjoyed watching someone else play (especially when they show off all the routes and many of the easter eggs). It's particularly good when watching someone decent at bullet hell games, or at least good at editing out repeated failure. And I don't dispute it being deserving of its #1 slot. But it's not something that I'd want to actually play myself.

I also enjoyed Yahtzee's dodge around his top 5 rules to get it into this video.

 

[Xman490]

You know what? Martin O'Malley isn't bland. He just has an unfitting personality. If those three Democratic candidates were ice cream flavors in a Neapolitan triplet, O'Malley wouldn't be vanilla (that would be Clinton) but instead would be strawberry: the flavor that is too tart to fit in with the likes of chocolate, vanilla, pistachio, and coffee. As in, his allusions to his governance and particular experiences detract from the usual discussions so much that people want him to leave the debates.

Basically, O'Malley is like strawberry ice cream and the well-functioning "bad" games here.

 

[RedRockRun]

Oh look more Undertale love... wonderful.

 

[4Aces]

At third best I actually thought for a second he was going with Fallout 4. The go-bag was in hand, and the fastest route to the red district was being mentally plotted. Might as well have one last epic romp before the planet splits in two.

Glad to see The Order getting worst of class, it was painfull just watching a playthrough. At least I could hit the FF button, to go from 2X to 4X (or 16X).

 

[Gendorius]

Well Jim Sterling is a tosser, a wanker a jerk and even if you WERE ripping him off it would be more like taking a shitty game from a shitty publisher and doing it right!