Chauvin Found Guilty of All Charges

[Agema]

He was obviously traumatized. I'm not even kidding, Zimmerman's situation was far from easy. Woulda shoulda coulda applies of course; he should've left Martin alone that night.

Yeah, I agree, I have some sympathy as well. For all his misadventures leading up to the incident, I suspect the incident itself was extremely distressing for him, and potentially made him feel very guilty, plus the lengthy and ferocious aftereffects. That sort of emotional strain could easily lead people to erratic behaviour, aggression, and violence. When he finds he's public enemy #1 with half of America and lionised by the other, and it is obvious to see why someone in emotional turmoil and under attack would so enthusiastically embrace the Confederate flag waving gun nuts calling him a hero.

I suspect a similar situation with Kyle Rittenhouse. Shooting someone is quite a crossroads in one's life. The path where someone offers to absolve your guilt and call you a hero is arguably much more attractive than the path where you feel bad because you did a really shitty thing. So I figure chances are he'll go deep into the world of right wing poster boy, too.

 

[Hawki]

Look, when it comes to police shootings, a lot of the ones that we see are obviously an unnecessary Police escalation of a non-violent situation,

Debatable.

I can't remember the exact stats, but police in the US kill about 1000-1500 per year (compared to about 40,000 gun deaths in the civilian populace; 14,000 of which are homicides). When you look at the number of deaths at the hands of the police, then focus on the ones that involves the suspect being unarmed, the share absolutely plummets. Something like, the US police kill around 450 African Americans per year, but when it comes to unarmed ones, it comes to around 30. Like at white Americans (around 650 per year), and when you correct for suspects that were unarmed, there's a similar drop.

I actually agree that US police kill too many people - among MEDCs, it's insanely high compared to their counterparts. On the other hand, a lot of it is driven by living among an armed populace. I mean, compare the situation with...I dunno, the UK, where about 3-4 people are killed by police per year. Is it because UK police have better training? Or is it because they don't carry firearms, in part because the gun laws are much stricter?

I'd wager that the answer to both of those questions is yes. It's why the idea of abolishing the police is absolutely insane to me (this is in regards to any country - yes, people are calling to abolish the police here, even when the death rate is about 4/5 per year), because even if we assume that literally every single person the police kill is innocent, the police 'murder rate' is only a tenth of the homicide rate in the general populace.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

Well, Tucker's having A Time:

Tucker Carlson is one of those people who believes that police need to be able to murder "those people" with impunity, or criminals will take over and America will turn into an '80s vigilante movie minus the vigilante.

What is with you people and Trump? Dear God, the man isn't even president anymore and people still won't stop bringing him up in every conversation.

Like it or not, Trump and his followers are now our "high-water mark" for abject stupidity, insanity and aimless rage.

 

[BrawlMan]

What is with you people and Trump? Dear God, the man isn't even president anymore and people still won't stop bringing him up in every conversation.

Because Trump is an asshole and there are people who still follow his every word like he's God, Jesus, or much more fittingly, Adolf Hitler. Just because he's not in office anymore doesn't mean idiots still won't stop following him or he won't stop trying to make everyone miserable.

 

[ObsidianJones]

TDebatable.

I can't remember the exact stats, but police in the US kill about 1000-1500 per year (compared to about 40,000 gun deaths in the civilian populace; 14,000 of which are homicides). When you look at the number of deaths at the hands of the police, then focus on the ones that involves the suspect being unarmed, the share absolutely plummets. Something like, the US police kill around 450 African Americans per year, but when it comes to unarmed ones, it comes to around 30. Like at white Americans (around 650 per year), and when you correct for suspects that were unarmed, there's a similar drop.

I actually agree that US police kill too many people - among MEDCs, it's insanely high compared to their counterparts. On the other hand, a lot of it is driven by living among an armed populace. I mean, compare the situation with...I dunno, the UK, where about 3-4 people are killed by police per year. Is it because UK police have better training? Or is it because they don't carry firearms, in part because the gun laws are much stricter?

I'd wager that the answer to both of those questions is yes. It's why the idea of abolishing the police is absolutely insane to me (this is in regards to any country - yes, people are calling to abolish the police here, even when the death rate is about 4/5 per year), because even if we assume that literally every single person the police kill is innocent, the police 'murder rate' is only a tenth of the homicide rate in the general populace.

It isn't Debatable. And the very reason is the police themselves.

Did Minn. Police Initially Say George Floyd Died of ‘Medical Incident'? | Snopes.com

The Minneapolis Police Department’s May 2020 statement about George Floyd’s death obscured the full story.

www.snopes.com

This is how the police described the incident.

Two officers arrived and located the suspect, a male believed to be in his 40s, in his car. He was ordered to step from his car. After he got out, he physically resisted officers. Officers were able to get the suspect into handcuffs and noted he appeared to be suffering medical distress. Officers called for an ambulance. He was transported to Hennepin County Medical Center by ambulance where he died a short time later.

At no time were weapons of any type used by anyone involved in this incident.

No mention of their tactics. If you believe the report, which many people are wont to do, George Floyd had an medical incident and Officers called for an ambulance once they observed that. But from video and testimony, Chauvin forcibly blocked Floyd's airway for 9 minutes, ignoring cries for help, and a trained firefighter who realized what was going on was deadly.

Video: Off-duty FF pleads with Minneapolis police to assess George Floyd

A woman who identified herself as a Minneapolis firefighter told officers to check Floyd's vital signs

www.firerescue1.com

Why is this important? Your stats come from Police Officers reporting on themselves. And through the myriad of cases brought to these forums over the years, we've seen how often police get the fundamental facts wrong. Or more to the point, omit them.

Stats about how police conduct themselves submitted by police have as much weight as all these faulty reports of how incidents went out of their control while we see video of police officers dominating people from the jump, or escalating the situation beyond what is warranted.

To want to debate, you have to call videos, testimonials, and witnesses somehow questionable, but hold the police's reportings and stats as clearly factual. How can anyone do that after the invent of the cell phone camera, and we seen so many reports to be completely made up BS from the jump?

There are only two options.

1.) Somehow, in this world is instant media and access to every goings-on in the world, one has simply missed the monthly... hell, weekly outlandishly unncessary police response and then videos that debunk the offending officer's claim.

2.) One is biased. Either for Police Officers, against the segments of the population they victimize, or both.

There isn't a third option. Right now, in this very thread, people who think badly about cops (I've learned of the acronym ACAB here) have seen the video of the 15 year old girl who was shot holding a knife and declared it a valid discharge of a firearm. When irrefutable evidence is presented, you accept it. You don't go out of your way to refute it because of biases.

 

[BrawlMan]

It isn't Debatable. And the very reason is the police themselves.

Did Minn. Police Initially Say George Floyd Died of ‘Medical Incident'? | Snopes.com

The Minneapolis Police Department’s May 2020 statement about George Floyd’s death obscured the full story.

www.snopes.com

This is how the police described the incident.



No mention of their tactics. If you believe the report, which many people are wont to do, George Floyd had an medical incident and Officers called for an ambulance once they observed that. But from video and testimony, Chauvin forcibly blocked Floyd's airway for 9 minutes, ignoring cries for help, and a trained firefighter who realized what was going on was deadly.

Video: Off-duty FF pleads with Minneapolis police to assess George Floyd

A woman who identified herself as a Minneapolis firefighter told officers to check Floyd's vital signs

www.firerescue1.com

Why is this important? Your stats come from Police Officers reporting on themselves. And through the myriad of cases brought to these forums over the years, we've seen how often police get the fundamental facts wrong. Or more to the point, omit them.

Stats about how police conduct themselves submitted by police have as much weight as all these faulty reports of how incidents went out of their control while we see video of police officers dominating people from the jump, or escalating the situation beyond what is warranted.

To want to debate, you have to call videos, testimonials, and witnesses somehow questionable, but hold the police's reportings and stats as clearly factual. How can anyone do that after the invent of the cell phone camera, and we seen so many reports to be completely made up BS from the jump?

There are only two options.

1.) Somehow, in this world is instant media and access to every goings-on in the world, one has simply missed the monthly... hell, weekly outlandishly unncessary police response and then videos that debunk the offending officer's claim.

2.) One is biased. Either for Police Officers, against the segments of the population they victimize, or both.

There isn't a third option. Right now, in this very thread, people who think badly about cops (I've learned of the acronym ACAB here) have seen the video of the 15 year old girl who was shot holding a knife and declared it a valid discharge of a firearm. When irrefutable evidence is presented, you accept it. You don't go out of your way to refute it because of biases.

Thank you @ObsidianJones.

@Hawki, I like you, but don't act so oblivious and naive I know you're smart. Never ignore evil or wrong doing that's clear as day in front of you. Especially when we're black and people of different color or races have to deal with on a day-to-day basis. Some of us are more lucky than others, but that pain still hurts. And like I said before we should not just stop it there or feel like everything is over. There is more fun to be done. Either you're part of the solution or part of the problem. If you don't want to help then just say so. But don't make excuses for people who use their power. Especially when a lot of them got away with it or their actions get downplayed.

 

[Majestic_Manatee]

What is with you people and Trump? Dear God, the man isn't even president anymore and people still won't stop bringing him up in every conversation.

It is far from over. Billionaire and millionaire libertarians and republicans are funneling huge sums of money on riding the same emotions Trump took advantage of, and pushing the voter fraud narrative even harder. For one, a summarized look at Mike Lindell's 48 hour stream for his new "free speech" platform 'Frank' brought on a cacophany of prominent wealthy conservative voices to maintain these falsehoods: https://www.businessinsider.com/mike-lindell-frank-a-thon-highlights-2021-4

For two, the directly connected April 2021 "Health and Freedom" conference presents further deliberately misinformed anger over election fraud and every other falsehood born of the Trump psychosis:
It is so unimaginably far from over, friend. Rest easy.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

It isn't Debatable. And the very reason is the police themselves.

Did Minn. Police Initially Say George Floyd Died of ‘Medical Incident'? | Snopes.com

The Minneapolis Police Department’s May 2020 statement about George Floyd’s death obscured the full story.

www.snopes.com

This is how the police described the incident.



No mention of their tactics. If you believe the report, which many people are wont to do, George Floyd had an medical incident and Officers called for an ambulance once they observed that. But from video and testimony, Chauvin forcibly blocked Floyd's airway for 9 minutes, ignoring cries for help, and a trained firefighter who realized what was going on was deadly.

Video: Off-duty FF pleads with Minneapolis police to assess George Floyd

A woman who identified herself as a Minneapolis firefighter told officers to check Floyd's vital signs

www.firerescue1.com

Why is this important? Your stats come from Police Officers reporting on themselves. And through the myriad of cases brought to these forums over the years, we've seen how often police get the fundamental facts wrong. Or more to the point, omit them.

Stats about how police conduct themselves submitted by police have as much weight as all these faulty reports of how incidents went out of their control while we see video of police officers dominating people from the jump, or escalating the situation beyond what is warranted.

To want to debate, you have to call videos, testimonials, and witnesses somehow questionable, but hold the police's reportings and stats as clearly factual. How can anyone do that after the invent of the cell phone camera, and we seen so many reports to be completely made up BS from the jump?

There are only two options.

1.) Somehow, in this world is instant media and access to every goings-on in the world, one has simply missed the monthly... hell, weekly outlandishly unncessary police response and then videos that debunk the offending officer's claim.

2.) One is biased. Either for Police Officers, against the segments of the population they victimize, or both.

There isn't a third option. Right now, in this very thread, people who think badly about cops (I've learned of the acronym ACAB here) have seen the video of the 15 year old girl who was shot holding a knife and declared it a valid discharge of a firearm. When irrefutable evidence is presented, you accept it. You don't go out of your way to refute it because of biases.

What would you suggest as a solution then? If police reform has continued to fall short of what people want and people feel that the organization is corrupt and only works to further the ends of the elite then should we return to community self-policing?

 

[ObsidianJones]

What is with you people and Trump? Dear God, the man isn't even president anymore and people still won't stop bringing him up in every conversation.

Allow me to answer your question with a question:

What is it with certain segments of the Republican Population that must constantly invent ideas, alternative realities, and concepts to cope with reality?

Why listen and give credence to an idea as a false trial, voter fraud, "We didn't see the beginning of the conflict", etc? If the tables were turned and certain events went more towards how you or said population wanted them to be, would they do the same?

"Of course they found him Chauvin not guilty. Because he was obviously wrong, but they can't admit that police are human and either willfully make mistakes or break the law. If they show that, what will happen to authority or respect?! So what they are going to do is find him not guilty despite the evidence and knowing he actually went beyond his scope of pacification and killed that man, let him work and go about his life during the morning, but at night take him to super secret jail so they can truly punish him because we all know he did a bad thing"

A secret trial makes just as much sense as that.

For many, Trump is the embodiment of that willful denial of reality. Willfully denying that minorities are being abused by the system (from cops to government) despite the overwhelming evidence that has cross corroboration. Willfully denying that climate change is a thing. That Trickle Down Economies work and we need to give breaks to people who just happen to be friendly with Trump will benefit from that while the average tax payer really didn't see that much of a positive gain[/url]. That only the media we consume is valid, and any other media that doesn't glow with our truth is corrupt lies trying to eat our babies. That somehow privatizing National Land is actually benefit to Americans. That making it harder to secure housing through HUD will benefit those it once helped.

Trump has become the Persona/Stand of the fringe part of the Republican Party. And why do we still talk about him? Well, he's still shoved in our face. Just on my day yesterday, I've seen one "Trump WON" bumper sticker, at least a dozen Trump 2020 flag decals from cars to shirts to face masks, I can't count how many MAGA hats or Keep America Great. And had one person actually take time out of my day to tell me that Covid isn't real, Trump did the best he could with something that isn't real, and it was just something to slander his name.

To the person that lost ten family members in a year due to this, including my mother.

Are you asking them "God, Trump isn't even President Any more. Let it go"?

 

[tippy2k2]

Yeah, this one seems justified

View attachment 3638

Look, when it comes to police shootings, a lot of the ones that we see are obviously an unnecessary Police escalation of a non-violent situation, but this one looks like the girl in pink was literally just about to be gutted.

I still have no idea why tazers aren't the default, but I think anyone would have a hard time saying that this shooting wasn't preventing an attack.

Obviously there is the ultimate hypocrisy of "you stopped one person getting injured/killed by killing someone else - a child, no less", but from what I can see at the moment, I would definitely err on the side of this being legal.

I certainly don't see myself as a cop bootlicker (I think the entire system basically has to be torn down and rebuilt but I do think it does need to be rebuilt and not just abolished completely so maybe that means I'm not Lefty Enough to get out of boot licking ) but I do agree with everything you've got above.

I've also been of the mind that the best way to tell if lethal force was actually required, it's "Did the shooter have time to decide if lethal force was required". If someone has time to think about "Can I aim for the arm/legs" (never mind how ridiculous that concept is to anyone who has ever actually fired a gun but for funsy, I'll put that in) or time to think "should I pull out my taser or pepper spray instead", they had time to not use lethal force. Not to mention how often THE COP is the aggressor who escalated the situation and then put themselves into a spot where they "have to" use lethal force, which this doesn't look to be the case at all (though to be fair, all we see is the shooting itself, not what started the situation but based on what we see here, this cop basically shows up and is already in the fire as he gets out of the car; the cop didn't pick this fight or antagonize the suspect into charging).

In this case, had they waited even another two seconds, it's likely they've now got a dead civilian and a super pissed off lady with a knife still.

It's not a position I'd envy a cop to be in but unless we see something drastically different from another angle somehow, this is about as "legit" of a shooting as you can have as a cop. It's unfortunate for everyone involved but I do believe there are times when a cop is actually needed to use lethal force and this looks to be one of them.

Although the later stupidity of them antagonizing the crowd with their "BlUe LiVeS mAtTeR" shit isn't a good look...

 

[Sora383]

What would you suggest as a solution then? If police reform has continued to fall short of what people want and people feel that the organization is corrupt and only works to further the ends of the elite then should we return to community self-policing?

Now I’m not located in the USA but in Canada and only been to a few areas in the USA so take what I say with a grain of salt l, but instead of looking at all police departments as one large entity wouldn’t it work better have maybe local city council or the mayor of each city to develop some sort of department/area to look into stations in their jurisdiction? For example let’s say Station A has certain issues and Station B has corrected those issues then a trainer/training process could be taught to station A. Then once all the stations in that city are at the right standards the Mayor could report the results to their....council member (not sure if that is the next one up the ladder sorry).

Again take what I say as someone who is more of an outsider who does not interact with police members (Just an ever day office assistant here)

 

[Dalisclock]

What is with you people and Trump? Dear God, the man isn't even president anymore and people still won't stop bringing him up in every conversation.

Tell his followers that. The people who think he won and the election was stolen through massive, yet suspiciously unprovable voter fraud.

Tell Qanon that, who seem to think him a savior whose REALLY gonna be inuagrated on....whatever fucking day it is this time around....July 4? Dec 32? Decemberween?

Believe me, I'd be happy to forgot the fucker ever existed, but I don't have that privilege. Neither do 500k+ people in this nation who died in the past year because of his sheer ineptitude/dismissal of the Covid Pandemic and who continue to die.

 

[happyninja42]

Tell his followers that. The people who think he won and the election was stolen through massive, yet suspiciously unprovable voter fraud.

Tell Qanon that, who seem to think him a savior whose REALLY gonna be inuagrated on....whatever fucking day it is this time around....July 4? Dec 32? Decemberween?

Believe me, I'd be happy to forgot the fucker ever existed, but I don't have that privilege. Neither do 500k+ people in this nation who died in the past year because of his sheer ineptitude/dismissal of the Covid Pandemic and who continue to die.

Yeah, his followers have zero connection to reality, and they are proud of it. It really does amaze me, who anti-democratic/american their position actually is. They are honestly, and seriously pushing the belief, that trump was chosen by god, that's divine rule to anyone paying attention. The very...fucking....thing, that the founding fathers that they so sexually worship and praise, fought against. They want to put us under a religious theocratic system, with the people THEY decide should rule, as literal kings of america. The sheer insanity of this, and just how delusional they are about what it means, is staggering.

 

[BrawlMan]

Yeah, his followers have zero connection to reality, and they are proud of it. It really does amaze me, who anti-democratic/american their position actually is. They are honestly, and seriously pushing the belief, that trump was chosen by god, that's divine rule to anyone paying attention. The very...fucking....thing, that the founding fathers that they so sexually worship and praise, fought against. They want to put us under a religious theocratic system, with the people THEY decide should rule, as literal kings of america. The sheer insanity of this, and just how delusional they are about what it means, is staggering.

To add further irony, they're violating their own religious beliefs for the sake of convenience. The praising/praying of false gods or idols. As for their precious "king". There's only one crownless king, and it sure as hell doesn't belong to Trump. The true crownless king has a beam katana packing, ready to go. And he's got way more standards than all of those jackasses.

 

[happyninja42]

To add further irony, they're violating their own religious beliefs for the sake of convenience. The praising/praying of false gods or idols. As for their precious"king". There's only one crownless king, and it sure as hell doesn't belong to Trump. The true crownless king has a beam katana and packing ready to go. And he's got way more standards than all of those jackasses.

Not sure who the beam katana guy is, but yeah I suspect he's probably a better candidate.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Allow me to answer your question with a question:

What is it with certain segments of the Republican Population that must constantly invent ideas, alternative realities, and concepts to cope with reality?

Why listen and give credence to an idea as a false trial, voter fraud, "We didn't see the beginning of the conflict", etc? If the tables were turned and certain events went more towards how you or said population wanted them to be, would they do the same?

"Of course they found him Chauvin not guilty. Because he was obviously wrong, but they can't admit that police are human and either willfully make mistakes or break the law. If they show that, what will happen to authority or respect?! So what they are going to do is find him not guilty despite the evidence and knowing he actually went beyond his scope of pacification and killed that man, let him work and go about his life during the morning, but at night take him to super secret jail so they can truly punish him because we all know he did a bad thing"

A secret trial makes just as much sense as that.

For many, Trump is the embodiment of that willful denial of reality. Willfully denying that minorities are being abused by the system (from cops to government) despite the overwhelming evidence that has cross corroboration. Willfully denying that climate change is a thing. That Trickle Down Economies work and we need to give breaks to people who just happen to be friendly with Trump will benefit from that while the average tax payer really didn't see that much of a positive gain[/url]. That only the media we consume is valid, and any other media that doesn't glow with our truth is corrupt lies trying to eat our babies. That somehow privatizing National Land is actually benefit to Americans. That making it harder to secure housing through HUD will benefit those it once helped.

Trump has become the Persona/Stand of the fringe part of the Republican Party. And why do we still talk about him? Well, he's still shoved in our face. Just on my day yesterday, I've seen one "Trump WON" bumper sticker, at least a dozen Trump 2020 flag decals from cars to shirts to face masks, I can't count how many MAGA hats or Keep America Great. And had one person actually take time out of my day to tell me that Covid isn't real, Trump did the best he could with something that isn't real, and it was just something to slander his name.

To the person that lost ten family members in a year due to this, including my mother.

Are you asking them "God, Trump isn't even President Any more. Let it go"?

Ok, so there seems to have been a misunderstanding of what I was trying to say. When I said this isn't meant to be the trial, I meant that because people decided to assemble a mob of people, much like they used to assemble to lynch black people 100 years ago, that they'd scuffed this whole trial. This conclusion, if things go how the court process is supposed to, will be thrown out due to the influences of outside forces.

That is the theory I saw being talked about elsewhere. Not some stupid fucking conspiracy theory of "deep state" card shuffling. So if my point is now understood I would like to actually discuss that aspect of the trial if everyone is ok with that.

 

[BrawlMan]

Not sure who the beam katana guy is, but yeah I suspect he's probably a better candidate.

Travis Touchdown.

 

[SilentPony]

So apparently the Judge thinks there may be grounds to have the entire verdict overturned:

"I'll give you that Congresswoman Waters may have given you something on appeal that may result in this whole trial being overturned," Judge Peter Cahill told defense attorney Eric Nelson on Monday.

If what politicians say can now overturn verdicts, there are a LOT of cases and juries I want to re-convene from the Trump years.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Yeah, his followers have zero connection to reality, and they are proud of it. It really does amaze me, who anti-democratic/american their position actually is. They are honestly, and seriously pushing the belief, that trump was chosen by god, that's divine rule to anyone paying attention. The very...fucking....thing, that the founding fathers that they so sexually worship and praise, fought against. They want to put us under a religious theocratic system, with the people THEY decide should rule, as literal kings of america. The sheer insanity of this, and just how delusional they are about what it means, is staggering.

Eh, same people generally blather on about small government and being able to do what they want and don't want gay marriage allowed.

But yeah, mostly it's the same old, but every so often it seems really weird.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

So apparently the Judge thinks there may be grounds to have the entire verdict overturned:

"I'll give you that Congresswoman Waters may have given you something on appeal that may result in this whole trial being overturned," Judge Peter Cahill told defense attorney Eric Nelson on Monday.

If what politicians say can now overturn verdicts, there are a LOT of cases and juries I want to re-convene from the Trump years.

I would wager that there's a better case for the mob outside threatening to burn the place down influencing the decisions.