Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

Hawki

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No, Hamas rule would mean the disenfranchisement of post-1947 Jewish immigrants to Israel into becoming non-citizens. What happens after that might be hard to say.
I'm not sure how you could say this when a few lines down you acknowledge that persecution would probably occur, but seriously, what do you think would happen?

Based on everything we've read/seen, it would mean the expulsion of every Jew (nice case of history repeating itself). All the other ME and North African countries have expelled their Jews, and there's no reason to think they'd take them back.

So, basically, another dispersal of the Jews, only this time there's only one region they can go to.

The Hamas charter definitely does not explicitly support de-Christianisation: quite the opposite, in fact. Although I suspect in practice, Hamas would not be terribly concerned about persecution of Christians beyond the PR damage in the international community.
The Hamas Charter explicitly labels Palestine an Islamic state, and Jerusalem an Islamic city. There's no ambiguity there. Even the 1947 plan expected Jerusalem to be a separately administered zone for the three faiths, and even under Israel, there's various levels of access allowed (e.g. Al Asqua Mosque allows Jews and Christians to come around it, but not pray on it, despite being built on a former Jewish site).

Hamas claims it respects religious pluralism, but it hasn't happened. Not in Gaza. And while not responsible, it hasn't occurred anywhere in the ME apart from Lebanon's power sharing agreement, and we know what Jordan did to East Jerusalem when it occupied the West Bank.

Well, sure. de-Christianisation has been going on since the 7th century, if you want to look at it that way, but it's not necessarily very useful to go back that far.
Well, how far do you want to go back?

I mean, rhetorical question, but on the subject at hand, I usually go as far back as the 19th century. It's true that de-Christianisation began as soon as Islam emerged, but the process accelerated from the 20th century.

There has clearly been a rapid decline in the last few decades, attributable in large part to emigration. But that emigration has more been driven by war, disorder and economic hardship than anything else. In many cases, where persecution has occurred, it has been enabled by this war and disorder. Much war and disorder has been inflicted by Western and Israeli actions. Al-Qaida and ISIS were born of resentment of Western interference, and ISIS flourished in Iraq where the West destroyed the local authority. At a significant step down in Islamism, being much more pragmatic / nationalist, Hezbollah was founded in response to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, and Hamas in response to the First Intifada. Hezbollah was subsequently vastly empowered by the 2006 Israeli attack on Lebanon, and Hamas by the persistent failure of Israel and Fatah to secure a future for the Palesinians.
To the above:

-Al Quaida was formed out of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

-The origins of ISIS are murky, but while it's absolutely true that the invasion of Iraq created a power vacuum that allowed it to take power, not only does its founding pre-date Iraq, but its ideology is rooted in the writings of the Muslim Brotherhood and other Islamist texts. ISIS, or some variant of it, would likely exist without any kind of interferance, at least if we assume that ideology = outcome.

-As for the reduction of Christianity as a whole...maybe. I say "maybe," because everything I've read on the subject doesn't disprove the economic thesis, but I haven't seen much that backs it up. Ask why Christianity isn't a thing, and "persecution" is the main result. Even if we buy the idea that the de-Christianization is due to Western interferance (which isn't unreasonable, there's likely truth to that), the persecution has gone on in countries regardless - see Saudi Arabia and Egypt for example. The closest I've seen to the economic thesis is the basis of economic times being tough, ergo, use Christians as scapegoats. If it was simply "bad economy, emmigrate," you'd expect to see similar percentages leave.

Key here of course is the fact that the West is viewed as Christian. Every time the West interferes politically or militarily, it can be perceived by some Middle Easterners as an attack by Christians on Muslims, and increases the risk that the native Christian populations become viewed as an enemy within. The upswing in Islamic fundamentalism such as Wahhabism makes this even more likely.

This is the tragic truth. The West and Israel have probably done more to de-Christianise the Middle East than centuries of preceding Muslim rule. Although of course, Israel couldn't give a shit about de-Christianisation and in terms of Israel/Palestine, effectively supports it.
To the first point, maybe. I mean, the region has many legitimate gripes with Western interferance, but while I've read of some Islamists framing such things as "the return of crusading Christians" (or similar phrases), just as often, it's a case of Islam vs. secularism/godlessnes - certainly that's the case in Europe right now.

To the latter point, debatable. At the start of the 20th century, the ME was about 20% Christian. As of 2016, it was 3-4%, and went into overdrive in the last 15 years. Some of that last 15 could be down to stuff like Afghanistan and Iraq, but there's also the Arab Spring, which didn't turn out well for Christians, as sectarian conflict sprung up. You're right about Israel, yes, but the de-Christianization (and de-Jewification) process has gone on all around it. If the de-Christianization was entirely due to Western intervention, you'd have expected to see Christian populations remain in place in the countries unaffected by it, but that hasn't been the case.

Also, Christians don't do well in Muslim countries, period, and that's outside the ME. In contrast, 90% of all religious terrorist groups are Islamic. Doesn't take much to find out why.

Hezbollah was founded in 1982. The Christian population of Lebanon has been in relative decline (much through emigration) significantly longer. See also above about the drivers for Hezbollah's growth. Iran can supply arms and funds, but it is anger against Israel that drives recruitment
Relative as in percentage, or absolute? Because in absolute terms, the Christian population in Lebanon has gone up (in part due to refugees).

by that logic Israel's commitment to a Jewish state necessarily means expelling or murdering everyone who is not Jewish.
Um, yes? Israel's expelled non-Jewish people, and declared itself a Jewish state.

I mean, sure, unless Hamas succeeds in its goals, we can never be 100% sure of what it would do, but we can look at what has happened under Hamas (de-Christianization within Gaza), and in surrounding Islamic states (near complete de-Jewification and significant de-Christianization), and in Jerusalem and the East Bank under Jordan (further de-Jewification). The region's hand a taste of what Islamic states mean for non-Muslims, whereas in contrast, Israel's done better in protecting minorities within its borders than other countries, which includes access to holy sites in Jerusalem (something the Jordanians flat-out refused when they controlled East Jerusalem).

I fully agree that Israel has done shit things, and continues to do shit things, and I'd like it to stop doing shitty things (it could start by freezing settlements and evictions) but by any measure, living under Hamas would be worse. Both of their charters, their history, and the history of Islamic states in the region demonstrates this.
 
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Hawki

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Also, tired, but going to list this here:


I don't want Harris to make my argument for me, but it basically sums up my thoughts on why there isn't moral equivalance between Israel and Hamas, despite the actions of the former still worthy of earning condemnation.
 

Revnak

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Also, tired, but going to list this here:


I don't want Harris to make my argument for me, but it basically sums up my thoughts on why there isn't moral equivalance between Israel and Hamas, despite the actions of the former still worthy of earning condemnation.
I too would desire that anyone other than Sam Harris make my arguments for me, given he’s an over-educated idiot who thinks a narrow expertise in one area makes him an authority on everything.
 

Seanchaidh

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I too would desire that anyone other than Sam Harris make my arguments for me, given he’s an over-educated idiot who thinks a narrow expertise in one area makes him an authority on everything.
What even is Sam Harris's area of expertise? I probably knew at one point. I'm certain it's not moral philosophy, because he's pretty dogshit at that. Anyway, I'm not watching a Sam Harris video of all things about this issue. I would advise Hawki to find better arguments from better people.

Um, yes? Israel's expelled non-Jewish people, and declared itself a Jewish state.
A Jewish state would not necessarily expel anyone. That this regime of Jewish supremacy has and is carries no implication about what an Islamic state would do.
 
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Hawki

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A Jewish state would not necessarily expel anyone. That this regime of Jewish supremacy has and is carries no implication about what an Islamic state would do.
You're getting into hypotheticals.

First, if any state declares it to be an (insert religion here), you're running into trouble, because ipso facto, the religion is going to get special status.

Second, we already know what Islamic states have done, what they continue to do, and what many aim to do. None of these states in the region exist in separate bubbles. Facts on the ground is that a Jewish state expelled non-Jews, and Islamic states expelled Jews after failing to erradicate Israel, the results being that Judaism is extinct in the ME outside Israel.

What even is Sam Harris's area of expertise? I probably knew at one point. I'm certain it's not moral philosophy, because he's pretty dogshit at that. Anyway, I'm not watching a Sam Harris video of all things about this issue. I would advise Hawki to find better arguments from better people.
And yet, you're quoting a talking skull.
 

Seanchaidh

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First, if any state declares it to be an (insert religion here), you're running into trouble, because ipso facto, the religion is going to get special status.
Yeah, that doesn't automatically make it as bad as Israel.

Second, we already know what Islamic states have done
Yeah. Are you under the impression that Islam begain in 1900 CE or something?

And yet, you're quoting a talking skull.
And..?
 

Hawki

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Yeah, that doesn't automatically make it as bad as Israel.
Most are worse.

Yeah. Are you under the impression that Islam begain in 1900 CE or something?
I'm not sure what your point is. Islam was founded in the 7th century. What does its founding date have to do with the sordid state of Islam today?

If you want to give me 1300 years of shit to deal with (sans a few centuries of a golden age), I'm happy to have that ammo.

 

Seanchaidh

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If you want to give me 1300 years of shit to deal with (sans a few centuries of a golden age), I'm happy to have that ammo.
None of it will justify the theft of Palestinian land or make it unreasonable or immoral for Palestinians to resist it.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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Right? I'd imagine that a large part of Hamas's recruitment is driven by Israel doing this every other week:
085AD63C-8D29-4376-AD7A-CDE18B6EBAFD.png
"I don't know why you're mad at *us*, we gave you an hour to grab all your stuff before we blew up your house and your job and killed those people Hamas was using as a shield after Hamas left because they got the warning too"
 

Revnak

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What even is Sam Harris's area of expertise? I probably knew at one point. I'm certain it's not moral philosophy, because he's pretty dogshit at that. Anyway, I'm not watching a Sam Harris video of all things about this issue. I would advise Hawki to find better arguments from better people.
Neurology. It should be noted, his explanation of why a conservative Jew is less bad than most Muslims is that they don’t believe in a god who listens to prayers, which I don’t think most Muslims believe either (at least not in the way that Harris thinks it’s important). He just thinks religions are bad based on how much they resemble a parody of Protestant Christianity.
 

Seanchaidh

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Neurology. It should be noted, his explanation of why a conservative Jew is less bad than most Muslims is that they don’t believe in a god who listens to prayers, which I don’t think most Muslims believe either (at least not in the way that Harris thinks it’s important). He just thinks religions are bad based on how much they resemble a parody of Protestant Christianity.
He also has a very strange idea of what 'objective morality' means.
 
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Buyetyen

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Neurology. It should be noted, his explanation of why a conservative Jew is less bad than most Muslims is that they don’t believe in a god who listens to prayers, which I don’t think most Muslims believe either (at least not in the way that Harris thinks it’s important). He just thinks religions are bad based on how much they resemble a parody of Protestant Christianity.
I mean, writing a study on the benefits of meditation is totally the same thing as having advanced degrees in poli-sci and world religions, right?
/s
 

Agema

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Neurology.
Cognitive neuroscience / psychology (the boundary is fairly thin). Neurology is a branch of medicine.

Cognitive neuroscience is his highest qualification, but it's not what he does as a day job. Doing some fMRI experiments and watching bits of the brain show activity in response to various stimuli or thoughts doesn't really grant that much insight into anything other than that bits of the brain are associated with certain types of cognitive activity, and that's not what he keeps opining on.
 

Hawki

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None of it will justify the theft of Palestinian land or make it unreasonable or immoral for Palestinians to resist it.
Of course not.

He just thinks religions are bad based on how much they resemble a parody of Protestant Christianity.
There's a 1001 reasons as to why religion is bad. I don't need Harris (or anyone) else to tell me why religions are bad, even if they can put it more eloquently than I could.
 

Revnak

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There's a 1001 reasons as to why religion is bad. I don't need Harris (or anyone) else to tell me why religions are bad, even if they can put it more eloquently than I could.
Damn, good for you dude. Glad you found your own justification for anglo-imperialism that is rooted in the un-scientific barbarism of the natives and their inability to be reasoned with due to their total inferiority.
 

Hawki

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Damn, good for you dude. Glad you found your own justification for anglo-imperialism that is rooted in the un-scientific barbarism of the natives and their inability to be reasoned with due to their total inferiority.
...what the fuck are you talking about?

"Religion is bad, therefore, imperialism is good."

FFS, religion's been used (and is used) to support imperialism you fuckwit.
 
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Revnak

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...what the fuck are you talking about?

"Religion is bad, therefore, imperialism is good."

FFS, religion's been used (and is used) to support imperialism you fuckwit.
“I do not believe in god, and the god I do not believe in is Jesus Christ”