Ukraine

[Seanchaidh]

Did you? Because you seem to have missed Russian invasions, illegal annexation, interference in European politics, murder of European citizens and outright invasion and slaughter against a country that did nothing to deserve it.

Please don't insult our intelligence with the idea that Ukraine was or is entirely innocent. It was in breach of agreements (to ceasefire and granting autonomy) in a civil war against rebels that appeared as a result of a coup that was backed and in at least some measure instigated by the United States, and employs neo-Nazi regiments in its armed forces-- neo-Nazis that helped achieve that coup.

Putin was never seen as Europe's enemy before he himself declared Europe to be his enemy.

Yes, that's why NATO was expanding towards it since the dissolution of the Soviet Union, and why Russia was also not allowed to join NATO. Because everyone is just so concerned about protecting themselves that they need a gigantic alliance against... someone! Who can say who? But no, Russia can never join or have its concerns about encroachment and threats addressed. Concerns which are entirely unwarranted, of course, because NATO would never engage in a war of afghanistan. I mean a war of aggression. That's just not in NATO's nature. Ask a Libyan; you can probably find one for sale.

No, you can't. Ukraine never threatened to destroy European countries for not dancing to their tune, they never interfered in European trade deals, never poisoned people on European soil or disputed the sovereignty of European nations.

You can easily say everything I actually said you can say, rather than the stuff I purposely left out because it's mostly the sort of stuff its patron the United States does rather than Ukraine itself. Is your particular concern with poisoning people the fact that it happened in Europe? Unless you're a white supremacist, that's a mole hill compared to the mountain of civilians dead to US drones. How does trapping people in a building in Odessa and then burning them alive for having the audacity to protest the overthrow of their government rate? No biggie?

 

[Agema]

The liberal was you.

Funny, because that makes no sense whatsoever in the context of the discussion, so it's your reading comprehension that's screwy as well. Although I'd say a bigger problem with liberals is attending anti-war protests without backing that up with more concrete action. Slacktivism, they call it. But even then, I'd take slacktivism over actively excusing even worse regimes and behaviour.

If your goal is to stop atrocities, you don't cheer on the most prolific perpetrator of them when it enacts sanctions designed to hurt the working class of other countries, an atrocity in its own right, in order to maintain its grip on power. Nor do you treat the target of those sanctions as if their alleged crimes are unique or take the propaganda of the most prolific perpetrator of atrocities at face value.

And here we go. Putin sends its working classes out to die for the purpose of killing Ukraine's working classes, looting and destroying their homes and workplaces, but the real atrocity against the working classes is US sanctions.

Although, frankly, Russia screws its working classes spectacularly already by pissing its wealth away in corruption and billionaire superyachts even more than the USA does.

 

[Silvanus]

employs neo-Nazi regiments in its armed forces-- neo-Nazis that helped achieve that coup.

Customary reminder that Russia employs neo-Nazi militia on a scale approximately 8 times larger than Ukraine ever has, as well as covertly sponsoring fascist groups throughout Europe, but you're absolutely fine with that.

Because all of these arguments exist solely as a cudgel to swing at geopolitical targets, and are not matters of principle for you at all.

 

[Hades]

Please don't insult our intelligence with the idea that Ukraine was or is entirely innocent. It was in breach of agreements (to ceasefire and granting autonomy) in a civil war against rebels that appeared as a result of a coup that was backed and in at least some measure instigated by the United States, and employs neo-Nazi regiments in its armed forces-- neo-Nazis that helped achieve that coup.

Ukraine is the defendant in this conflict with every step initiated and escalated by Russia. This all started because Russia tried to force Ukraine to be its puppet state, this failing led to the Russian puppet getting overthrown and Russia's response to this was to invade. Had Russia accepted that both Ukraine and Europe were sovereign entities with the right to trade with each other nothing would have happened. Had Russia accepted that they overplayed their hand and took the loss of their puppet with grace then nothing would have happened.

Given the fact that the Russian puppet tried to betray Ukraine in favor of Russia I'm not going to blame Ukrainians for kicking him out.

Yes, that's why NATO was expanding towards it since the dissolution of the Soviet Union, and why Russia was also not allowed to join NATO. Because everyone is just so concerned about protecting themselves that they need a gigantic alliance against... someone! Who can say who? But no, Russia can never join or have its concerns about encroachment and threats addressed. Concerns which are entirely unwarranted, of course, because NATO would never engage in a war of afghanistan. I mean a war of aggression. That's just not in NATO's nature. Ask a Libyan; you can probably find one for sale.

You do realize that Europe became so dependent on Russian gass because they didn't think Russia was their enemy anymore right? Germany especially had a whole political stream devoted to closer ties with Russia, culminating with its former chancellor becoming a Putin crony. Before Putin declared himself our enemy he was mostly seen as a welcome guest in Western Europe. Given the strong economic ties that Europe was willing to take on with Russia Putin's idea that Europe was this giant threat that had to stay out of Ukraine was nonsensical.

You can easily say everything I actually said you can say, rather than the stuff I purposely left out because it's mostly the sort of stuff its patron the United States does rather than Ukraine itself. Is your particular concern with poisoning people the fact that it happened in Europe? Unless you're a white supremacist, that's a mole hill compared to the mountain of civilians dead to US drones.

We're not talking about the US though. We're talking about Ukraine. And as it stands Ukraine never presented itself as a hostile entity towards Europe while Russia's whole foreign policy is devoted to the idea of Europe being an enemy, as well as nostalgia about the times they terrorized eastern Europe. And as far as Europe goes the US doesn't act like a hostile entity to us either. For of America's many flaws the desire to attack Europe isn't one of them.

 

[Seanchaidh]

They weren't under any realistic threat whatsoever and they invaded anyway.

They have thousands of nuclear missiles pointed at them by the United States and a hostile country on their border that is being continually armed and trained by the United States and other countries more and more (after its government was overthrown because it was not sufficiently anti-Russian). In what universe is that no realistic threat whatsoever? You can say that it was not yet an imminent attack, but your characterization is inaccurate to the point of being silly. They were obviously being maneuvered against diplomatically in order to secure ever-increasing military advantages for NATO and it is beyond pathetic not to acknowledge that.

I... never said they particularly cared about Ukraine. I never said they're "chiefly concerned with human rights". I never said anything that even approximated those sentiments, and I disagree with both sentiments.

Then why do you pretend that I think these things about Russia? That's not at all (logically) consistent of you.

Are you truly incapable of conceiving that someone could condemn a murderous invasion/annexation without simultaneously loving the US? Its such a bizarre, moronic equation.

You justified Ukraine's murderous treatment of the Donbas and downplayed US involvement in the Maidan coup while defending the honor and democratic pedigree of Ukraine's oligarchic comprador government that has incorporated neo-Nazi organizations into its police and armed forces. You... stretched to characterize the Wagner group as the same sort of thing as Azov/C14/Right Sector/Aidar. You went on to support sanctions by the United States designed to hurt the working class and poor of Russia (not to mention other Europeans who rely on Russian natural gas). You've also hallucinated an annexation that is, at the very most, yet to be (assuming it will ever come at all). Yours is a set of positions that so perfectly mirror those of US propaganda that it is weird that you don't like the United States, frankly; you've been nothing but deliberately over-cynical towards Russia in a way that you are simply not toward the United States because in your mind the United States is still apparently capable of doing good things; the United States is something real to you whereas Russia is a caricature disallowed from doing or being anything but evil. You've bought into the demonization of a target of US aggression; and that's all the US imperialists want from you. They don't care about your approval: they have your consent.

 

[Terminal Blue]

The liberal was you.

If you had any decency, that word would stick in your throat at this point.

You have done everything you would accuse liberals of doing, you have done it far more blatantly, far more overtly and with far less self-awareness. You accuse liberals of cowardice while bootlicking for neo-Nazis and neo-Imperialists (both overt and covert) from a position of safety halfway around the world. You accuse liberals of falling victim to propaganda while making claims that go beyond bias and into outright fabrication. You accuse liberals of hypocrisy while doing the above. You accuse others of supporting Imperialism while sitting in the US determining the morality of redrawing maps of places you've never been.

You are so far beneath the liberals, at this point, that your mere existence imbues them with undeserved integrity. I suspect the liberal bias towards compromise and consensus is the only reason anyone is willing to place any meaning in what you say at all, given how absolutely liquid your principles and basic view of reality have turned out to be.

 

[Seanchaidh]

You accuse others of Imperialism while sitting in the US determining the morality of redrawing maps of places you've never been.

What do you think condemning Russia for intervening in defense of South Ossetia and Abkhazia is if not "determining the morality of redrawing maps of places you've never been"? Sit down.

 

[Satinavian]

You justified Ukraine's murderous treatment of the Donbas

Which didn't happen

and downplayed US involvement in the Maidan coup

which was nearly irrelevant

while defending the honor and democratic pedigree of Ukraine's oligarchic comprador government

in which the oligarch lost the democratic election

You... stretched to characterize the Wagner group as the same sort of thing as Azov/C14/Right Sector/Aidar.

Wagner are probably worse. At least they have far more warcrimes and other atrocities to their name.

You went on to support sanctions by the United States designed to hurt the working class and poor of Russia (not to mention other Europeans who rely on Russian natural gas).

Which is pretty much the only way to pressure Russia without joining the war and thus rightfully commendable

You've also hallucinated an annexation that is, at the very most, yet to be (assuming it will ever come at all).

If Russia didn't want territory they could make peace at every moment.

Yours is a set of positions that so perfectly mirror those of US propaganda that it is weird that you don't like the United States, frankly; you've been nothing but deliberately over-cynical towards Russia in a way that you are simply not toward the United States because in your mind the United States is still apparently capable of doing good things; the United States is something real to you whereas Russia is a caricature disallowed from doing or being anything but evil.

Not an admirer of the US at all, but at least it is not a fascist dictatorship like Russia.

Honestly, i can hardly believe anyone can be as deluded concerning Russia as you appear. I mean yes, sunk-cost-fallacy is quite powerful in distorting opinions but even that only goes so far.

 

[Silvanus]

They have thousands of nuclear missiles pointed at them by the United States and a hostile country on their border that is being continually armed and trained by the United States and other countries more and more (after its government was overthrown because it was not sufficiently anti-Russian). In what universe is that no realistic threat whatsoever? You can say that it was not yet an imminent attack, but your characterization is inaccurate to the point of being silly. They were obviously being maneuvered against diplomatically in order to secure ever-increasing military advantages for NATO and it is beyond pathetic not to acknowledge that.

None of those nuclear weapons were in Ukraine or controlled by Ukraine. Ukraine also hosted no external military bases... except Russian ones. You're arguing that Ukrainian civilians deserved to be slaughtered because other countries angered Russia.

Ukraine was only "hostile" in the sense that they overthrew a tyrant bankrolled and controlled by a hostile foreign state.

Ukraine never attacked Russia and posed no realistic threat of doing so. Russia attacked Ukraine again and again and again and again.

Then why do you pretend that I think these things about Russia? That's not at all (logically) consistent of you.

Because you respond to every incident of Russian atrocity with 1) denial or accusation of lying; 2) downplaying; 3) Immediate deflection onto something else; 4) Arguing that the victims deserved it.

You justified Ukraine's murderous treatment of the Donbas and downplayed US involvement in the Maidan coup while defending the honor and democratic pedigree of Ukraine's oligarchic comprador government that has incorporated neo-Nazi organizations into its police and armed forces. You... stretched to characterize the Wagner group as the same sort of thing as Azov/C14/Right Sector/Aidar. You went on to support sanctions by the United States designed to hurt the working class and poor of Russia (not to mention other Europeans who rely on Russian natural gas). You've also hallucinated an annexation that is, at the very most, yet to be (assuming it will ever come at all). Yours is a set of positions that so perfectly mirror those of US propaganda that it is weird that you don't like the United States, frankly; you've been nothing but deliberately over-cynical towards Russia in a way that you are simply not toward the United States because in your mind the United States is still apparently capable of doing good things; the United States is something real to you whereas Russia is a caricature disallowed from doing or being anything but evil. You've bought into the demonization of a target of US aggression; and that's all the US imperialists want from you. They don't care about your approval: they have your consent.

US involvement in Maidan stretches to a few hundred thousand dollars, as has already been covered; it's utterly dwarfed by the finance, weaponry, and illegally disguised troops that Russia used for years and years to coerce the outcome they wanted. Its not downplaying when the influence was, frankly, pretty damn relatively tiny.

And it's not a stretch to characterise Wagner as neo-Nazi. They fucking are, and I find it unsurprising that you'd try to launder the reputation of a neo-Nazi militia if it suited you.

The annexation has already happened elsewhere. It happened in Crimea. Land was also seized in Abkhazia and South Ossetia. And now the Russian military invades yet again; throws the same lies about drills, and cooks up the same easily-disproven false flags; and then proclaims that Ukraine cannot be allowed to exist.

It's not "hallucination" to believe they aimed to do.... what they already did twice, and then explicitly stated they would do again. What it is is mind-numbing gullibility to view all of that and steadfastly insist nothing is happening.

 

[Hades]

and a hostile country on their border that is being continually armed and trained by the United States and other countries more and more (after its government was overthrown because it was not sufficiently anti-Russian)

You have it backwards though. Its Russian which is primarily anti Ukrainian rather than the other way around. The antipathy Ukrainians have towards Russians is a reaction to continued Russian attempts to undermine if not outright abolish Ukrainian sovereignty. If Russia didn't constantly meddle in Ukrainian politics, if it didn't invade or annex their lands then Ukraine wouldn't be hostile to Russia in the first place.

Its also not the case that the previous Russian puppet was removed for not being sufficiently anti-Russian. He got removed because he wasn't sufficiently pro Ukrainian, by the Ukrainians themselves because he was busy selling out their country to a hostile entity.

 

[thebobmaster]

Guys, why are you bothering? It seems Seanchaidh thinks that this is a documentary on NATO.



He also is convinced that nothing Russia does is bad, and everything the US does is. You're trying to argue with someone who is never, ever, ever, ever wrong. All you will do is make yourself frustrated trying to point out anything that he hasn't already decided on.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

Guys, why are you bothering? It seems Seanchaidh thinks that this is a documentary on NATO.

He just wants USSR 2.0 and doesn't care if Ukrainians have to die by the thousands to give him that.

 

[Silvanus]

He just wants USSR 2.0 and doesn't care if Ukrainians have to die by the thousands to give him that.

Ironic, then, to be cheering for an ultra-capitalist who has said he'd increase the "decommunisation" of Ukraine.

 

[Agema]

What do you think condemning Russia for intervening in defense of South Ossetia and Abkhazia is if not "determining the morality of redrawing maps of places you've never been"? Sit down.

Again, a reminder here that prior to the Abkhaz conflict, Georgians were just shy of 50% of the population of Abkhazia, and the Abkhaz under 20%.

So yes, we certainly can condemn Russia for allowing a group to ethnically cleanse a population nearly three times larger and which almost certainly held democratic pre-eminence, just so Russia could restore some of its imperial influence over its neighbours.

 

[Elijin]

He cheers on Russia because they're the opponent of the US. He'd love a USSR 2.0 because of the anti-US sentiments. He would cheer them on from his cushy life in the US, because he's empty air. Not a single fuck was given about any lives, Russian, Ukrainian or otherwise, that suffer for his chance to spit at the US.

 

[tstorm823]

He also is convinced that nothing Russia does is bad, and everything the US does is.

He doesn't think that, he just genuinely doesn't care. The morality of actions is not what stands in the way of his communist utopia, it's the power behind them that does, so Seanchaidh will always take the side of whoever opposes the most powerful actor independent of morality. I wish Sean would just say these things instead of pretending for 100 pages of argument that he's taking a reasonable moral stance.

 

[Silvanus]

Sweden and Finland agree to submit Nato applications, say reports

Two countries could apply for membership simultaneously as soon as mid-May, according to reports

www.theguardian.com

Sweden and Finland have both agreed to submit NATO applications, following Putin's decision to threaten the two countries.

Moldova holds security meeting as tensions rise over breakaway region

Senior Russian diplomat says Moscow is ‘concerned’ over string of explosions in Transnistria

www.theguardian.com

And Moldova is holding a security meeting concerning Transnistria (which is currently governed by Russian-sponsored separatists and occupied by Russian troops, much like the eastern half of the Donbas was for the past 8 years).

Denis Pushilin, the puppet-president of the DPR, has stated that Russia should plan the next stage of its war in Ukraine around Transnistria, presumably on the basis that if Russia controls Donbas and southern Ukraine, it could create a contiguous land corridor with Transnistria. As such the Moldovan government fears that that area could be next to be targeted for annexation by Russia.

===

Numerous European countries have held back from joining NATO, believing that membership is not necessary for self-defence. Putin's actions in Ukraine have demonstrated two things to the governments of Sweden, Finland, and Moldova: 1) That security agreements with Russia do not provide any guarantees of security, because Russia will freely break them; and 2) That countries outside of NATO will be directly threatened for territorial invasion by Russia.

NATO is a deeply flawed and militaristic institution. But from the POV of a European nation, it is currently the only potential guarantor of protection from invasion, slaughter, and annexation.

 

[Agema]

And Moldova is holding a security meeting concerning Transnistria (which is currently governed by Russian-sponsored separatists and occupied by Russian troops, much like the eastern half of the Donbas was for the past 8 years)... As such the Moldovan government fears that that area could be next to be targeted for annexation by Russia.

And Russia will annex it: that much is plain. That or Moldova will be required to promise to bend the knee to Moscow.

Transnistria's autonomy is effectively all down to the decision of a Russian military unit to enforce it against Moldova - although we could perhaps forgive it to some degree given the collapse of centralised Russian authority when the USSR disintegrated, as i may have been the general exerting his own authority. Nevertheless, the continued presence of Russian troops there is almost certainly part of Russia's desire to maintain regional hegemony.

 

[Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)]

Russia Promises They Don't Want to Invade Moldova

The Russian foreign ministry has responded to concerns the Kremlin had its sights on the breakaway republic.

www.newsweek.com

It's all good guys, they said they're not going to invade the country. We don't have to worry...
: )
They're going to invade aren't they?

 

[CM156]

Russia Promises They Don't Want to Invade Moldova

The Russian foreign ministry has responded to concerns the Kremlin had its sights on the breakaway republic.

www.newsweek.com

It's all good guys, they said they're not going to invade the country. We don't have to worry...
: )
They're going to invade aren't they?

If I shook hands with a Russian government official, I'd count my fingers afterwards.