Utah creates 5 person commission to regulate one trans girl playing sports

[Gordon_4]

Had no idea blood type was collected but it makes sense

Well it might not be recorded for everyone, but I was a blood donor and I still keep my donor card which does have it. But since Medicare has its fingers in nearly all parts of public health, they could find out due to that or the many blood tests I’ve had over the years.

*looks at thread title*

Wait, how the hell did we get here?

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

Wait, how the hell did we get here?

The usual suspects using every available avenue to rehash arguments they've already lost a hundred times before. Y'know, standard operating procedure.

 

[Trunkage]

Well it might not be recorded for everyone, but I was a blood donor and I still keep my donor card which does have it. But since Medicare has its fingers in nearly all parts of public health, they could find out due to that or the many blood tests I’ve had over the years.

*looks at thread title*

Wait, how the hell did we get here?

They banned people from sport based on their birth certificate.

Some people are trying to pretend why only using your sex on your birth certificate and never changing it is important. Like, having your assigned sex is important on your driver's licences for doctors...

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Yet another way to be awed by how other countries do things, fucking hell. Just straight up clownshoes over here

 

[Gordon_4]

Yet another way to be awed by how other countries do things, fucking hell. Just straight up clownshoes over here

How is it awe inspiring for a drivers licence to not contain irrelevant data pertaining to its purpose?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

How is it awe inspiring for a drivers licence to not contain irrelevant data pertaining to its purpose?

I'm easily impressed these days.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

You don't think trans men are men and you think that all trans people have "clues" to their assigned sex.

You can stop with all the sophistry and pretense. You're a transphobe.

Edit: also, you're letting your transphobia get in the way if your own arguments. You say that someone's births sex should be on their ID so doctors can know if they are unconscious. But also cops can tell a trans person without checking their ID because there are "clues". You're just willing to make every single argument to discredit trans people even if the arguments you use are mutually exclusive. And the reason is that you are a transphobe.

I use actual definitions of words for their meaning, it's not some fringe stance on anything. Sex and gender are 2 different things. Can you not tell someone is trans when interacting with them? It's not like I'm claiming I have some super power in figuring out if people are trans. I'm not transphobic, I don't have anything against trans people.

Interacting with someone is different than someone just laying there unconscious.

Or maybe always aligning 100% with it is the only way to not be one. AFAIK, postmodern transphobia starts at when someone says 'woman' or 'man' they always mean a cis-[wo]man unless specified further. Very little left to care about if there is no space between woke and transphobic.

Then, everyone is a transphobe because in the future, there will be new things added that make you a transphobe then that nobody is complying with today. I simply just treat everyone like a person, I don't care what you are or what you identify as, nor do I care what you think I am either.

So once again, it was an empty bit of sophistry with no actual point.



Something, yes. And it has to do with the fact that you constantly defend conservative policies but getting you to do the same for a progressive one is trying to get blood from a stone.

No, it was simply if the government never recognized marriage and it was like baptism or bar mitzvah, then there wouldn't have been any issue with gay marriage. That was literally all. That didn't imply that I was for removing marriages but a "what if" scenario if they were never recognized.

All you guys do is whine about conservative policies that in actuality do very little or do something you don't understand (and didn't actually read it) or do nothing. I'll defend any policy that is either good or inoffensive, don't care how conservative or progressive it is. If the forum was more conservative and bitching about people wanting public health care, I'd be defending that just the same. All this fighting about very little things that hardly matter when both parties are both for the big things that aren't good for people.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

And this mostly fake probably never happened scenario justifys not being able to use an ID to buy a thing without people, at best, thinking it's a fake ID and having to out yourself to basically everybody who has to check an ID for any number of incredibly mundane circumstances? Because "people get harassed for tons of things" and I guess you want it to happen more?

"Men are taller than women on average" does not mean "every man has a height advantage on women" and it's breathtaking how you continue to insist otherwise

Men can drug screen without anybody getting banned for natural testosterone. Cis women aren't allowed to have a purely natural level of testosterone that's too high. The idea that you just have to ban them because "tests" is bullshit that you are making up whole cloth

Yes. Trans gal I know is down several shoe sizes too. Shit dude, cis women regularly get shorter after pregnancy. This stuff isn't nearly as immutable as you think

My argument is that states have never banned a single gay dude from getting married in the same way that states aren't banning trans girls from playing sports. Because that was your argument: "states aren't banning trans girls from playing sports", which is technically correct in the same way as "states never banned gay people from getting married".

If you'd done literally any research whatsoever, "social transition", the treatment state agencies are being instructed to never use, is kids going by a different name, different pronouns, getting a different haircut, or wearing different clothes. The governor is instructing state healthcare, and anybody accepting state dollars, to not suggest any sort of gender non-conforming behavior as treatment if a kid is possibly trans. That's banning trans kids from existing.

The only allowed surgeries are going to be on completely unconsenting intersex infants to force them into conventional, socially accepted sexes and, naturally, circumcision.

You should really stop guessing about things and start looking stuff up

Then you can put it on the back of the ID then. Problem solved?

I said look up the theories because they imply men just grow more years of their life than women, thus if you were a man for 20 years, and then transitioned, then you almost certainly are taller than if you were a woman your whole life.

I searched for women getting shorter after pregnancy and literally nothing on that. In fact, 2 results ask if women can get taller after pregnancy. I don't see how bones can get smaller. Outside of gravity pushing down on us all and losing some height eventually, people don't get shorter because of hormones. Same with shoe size, how are your feet bones getting smaller? Sure, foot swelling can cause differences in shoe size.

Looks like they just have to figure out the right baseline for women. Pat McAfee talks about the same thing with HGH for men.
Pat McAfee & AJ Hawk On If HGH Is Commonly Used In The NFL - YouTube

Yes, but in one thing, people are separated by sex and in the other thing, they aren't (or there's no reason to). You can't apply the same logic to 2 different things. It's like applying "separate but equal" to women's sports and saying that women's sports are bad. It's a disingenuous argument.

I'd like to see the text of whatever law/bill/policy that says that. There's a huge track record here of not reading what things actually say like, you know, the "don't say gay" bill.

Until there's confirmation of something, no reason to assume or speculate on things that isn't the most likely reason. The one video Trunkage IIRC posted was nothing but unsubstantiated claims.

Yes. There are some books that were banned on Common Core. And there were some that were banned for social and emotional well-being and others for CRT

This segment is talking about the specific books that were banned on social and emotional grounds. I.e. they were not banned based on Common Core.

Florida's DoE has told the publishers the overall reason why each book is banned but not which specific parts were bad. So (maybe) we will find out whats so offensive. Until then, the piblishers are trying to find the 'social and emotional learning' in their book to fix them and maybe resubmit them. Because DeSantis has just fucked them financially so they gotta bend the knee and suck up to get back in good graces of the FL GOP

So, to say again, the examples were NOT to do with Common Core. Maybe you could use Occam's Razor to figure out that, if they are talking about social and emotional well-being that they are only looking at those books that were banned for those reasons

No, they asked the publisher as to why the books were banned and the publisher speculated on why.

What IDs do you guys have that contain that information?

My Illinois driver license has weight and height on it.

 

[Buyetyen]

No, it was simply if the government never recognized marriage and it was like baptism or bar mitzvah, then there wouldn't have been any issue with gay marriage. That was literally all. That didn't imply that I was for removing marriages but a "what if" scenario if they were never recognized.

And it was a stupid what-if.

All you guys do is whine about conservative policies that in actuality do very little or do something you don't understand (and didn't actually read it) or do nothing. I'll defend any policy that is either good or inoffensive, don't care how conservative or progressive it is. If the forum was more conservative and bitching about people wanting public health care, I'd be defending that just the same. All this fighting about very little things that hardly matter when both parties are both for the big things that aren't good for people.

Then why are you defending the SC decision to overturn Roe v Wade based on Constitutional originalism? Oh that's right, because you're full of shit. Also, wanting universal healthcare is hardly progressive since every developed nation minus the US has it. Those of us advocating for single-payer healthcare just want our country to catch up and join the rest of the big boy nations.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Then you can put it on the back of the ID then. Problem solved?

Yeah, fantastic, absolutely out every trans person to anybody checking ID. Incredible ability to not solve the problem in any way.

I said look up the theories because they imply men just grow more years of their life than women, thus if you were a man for 20 years, and then transitioned, then you almost certainly are taller than if you were a woman your whole life.

Somebody's theoretical alternate reality height has no bearing on anything and shouldn't be used for the basis of rules for sports based in a single reality plane

I searched for women getting shorter after pregnancy and literally nothing on that. In fact, 2 results ask if women can get taller after pregnancy. I don't see how bones can get smaller. Outside of gravity pushing down on us all and losing some height eventually, people don't get shorter because of hormones. Same with shoe size, how are your feet bones getting smaller? Sure, foot swelling can cause differences in shoe size.

You are actively bad at Google

Information on Estrogen Hormone Therapy | Gender Affirming Health Program

Overview of Feminizing Hormone Therapy UCSF Transgender Care UCSF Health System University of California - San Francisco July, 2020 Hi, I'm Dr. Maddie Deutsch, Associate Professor of Clinical Family & Community Medicine at the University of California – San Francisco (UCSF), and Medical Director...

transcare.ucsf.edu

Bones stay the same size, ligaments and muscles around them change, causing different sizes and heights

Can an MTF trans actually lose height/shoe sizes during HRT? Are there any studies, surveys, or credible explanations?

Answer (1 of 9): I’m not aware of any studies showing these effects, but anecdotal reports are widespread and credible medical sources accept them as correct. (This is unfortunately quite common for transgender health care—researchers compare psychiatric outcomes and occasionally long-term health...

www.quora.com

Yes, but in one thing, people are separated by sex and in the other thing, they aren't (or there's no reason to). You can't apply the same logic to 2 different things. It's like applying "separate but equal" to women's sports and saying that women's sports are bad. It's a disingenuous argument.

The why is irrelevant to your stupid semantic argument that states aren't banning trans children from playing sports

I'd like to see the text of whatever law/bill/policy that says that. There's a huge track record here of not reading what things actually say like, you know, the "don't say gay" bill.
Until there's confirmation of something, no reason to assume or speculate on things that isn't the most likely reason. The one video Trunkage IIRC posted was nothing but unsubstantiated claims.

I'd say "Google it", but you're flat out incompetent at that. Not that you'd believe me: a law would have to say "fuck trans people, we hate them specifically and are maliciously hurting them" for you to think they might be up to something shady. I know this because I FUCKING LINKED TO IT

 

[Gordon_4]

Then you can put it on the back of the ID then. Problem solved?

I said look up the theories because they imply men just grow more years of their life than women, thus if you were a man for 20 years, and then transitioned, then you almost certainly are taller than if you were a woman your whole life.

I searched for women getting shorter after pregnancy and literally nothing on that. In fact, 2 results ask if women can get taller after pregnancy. I don't see how bones can get smaller. Outside of gravity pushing down on us all and losing some height eventually, people don't get shorter because of hormones. Same with shoe size, how are your feet bones getting smaller? Sure, foot swelling can cause differences in shoe size.

Looks like they just have to figure out the right baseline for women. Pat McAfee talks about the same thing with HGH for men.
Pat McAfee & AJ Hawk On If HGH Is Commonly Used In The NFL - YouTube

Yes, but in one thing, people are separated by sex and in the other thing, they aren't (or there's no reason to). You can't apply the same logic to 2 different things. It's like applying "separate but equal" to women's sports and saying that women's sports are bad. It's a disingenuous argument.

I'd like to see the text of whatever law/bill/policy that says that. There's a huge track record here of not reading what things actually say like, you know, the "don't say gay" bill.

Until there's confirmation of something, no reason to assume or speculate on things that isn't the most likely reason. The one video Trunkage IIRC posted was nothing but unsubstantiated claims.


No, they asked the publisher as to why the books were banned and the publisher speculated on why.



My Illinois driver license has weight and height on it.

What the fuck for? None of that information is relevant to a driver’s licence.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

And it was a stupid what-if.



Then why are you defending the SC decision to overturn Roe v Wade based on Constitutional originalism? Oh that's right, because you're full of shit. Also, wanting universal healthcare is hardly progressive since every developed nation minus the US has it. Those of us advocating for single-payer healthcare just want our country to catch up and join the rest of the big boy nations.

Why? Marriage mainly gives tax benefits that don't really need to be a thing anyway.

Roe v Wade was poorly argued, it's just bad law and bad law gets overturned like say the Cosby case. I'm not for Cosby being free but for the application of the law because his case was very unconstitutional. The SC's decision isn't based on how they feel about abortion but the actual law. If you want abortion to be federal law, add an amendment or argue it better with the current amendments. America is different than most countries as states are sorta their own country so if it's not in the constitution, it's the state to dictate the law (which have pros and cons but that is the law of the land). It's a law debate, not a policy debate.

Yeah, fantastic, absolutely out every trans person to anybody checking ID. Incredible ability to not solve the problem in any way.

Somebody's theoretical alternate reality height has no bearing on anything and shouldn't be used for the basis of rules for sports based in a single reality plane

You are actively bad at Google

Information on Estrogen Hormone Therapy | Gender Affirming Health Program

Overview of Feminizing Hormone Therapy UCSF Transgender Care UCSF Health System University of California - San Francisco July, 2020 Hi, I'm Dr. Maddie Deutsch, Associate Professor of Clinical Family & Community Medicine at the University of California – San Francisco (UCSF), and Medical Director...

transcare.ucsf.edu

Bones stay the same size, ligaments and muscles around them change, causing different sizes and heights

Can an MTF trans actually lose height/shoe sizes during HRT? Are there any studies, surveys, or credible explanations?

Answer (1 of 9): I’m not aware of any studies showing these effects, but anecdotal reports are widespread and credible medical sources accept them as correct. (This is unfortunately quite common for transgender health care—researchers compare psychiatric outcomes and occasionally long-term health...

www.quora.com

The why is irrelevant to your stupid semantic argument that states aren't banning trans children from playing sports

I'd say "Google it", but you're flat out incompetent at that. Not that you'd believe me: a law would have to say "fuck trans people, we hate them specifically and are maliciously hurting them" for you to think they might be up to something shady. I know this because I FUCKING LINKED TO IT

The whole outing trans people to cops because it's on an ID is ridiculous to begin with, where has this police harassment that you claim happens happened?

It's not theoretical, it's biology. Men grower far more after puberty than women.

Your linked research comes back with "Some people may notice minor changes in shoe size or height" and "Height and shoe size changes are always small" and one of them is a Quora page, might as well use Yahoo Answers at this point. And you claimed women regularly get shorter after pregnancy and I saw nothing that even speculated that.

Conflating the argument that "gay men can still get married" with "trans can still play sports" is complete bullshit logic.

So, I went back and read these HORRIBLE GUIDELINES that say FUCK YOU to trans people. You're mad that Florida used science to come up with medical GUIDELINES? The studies linked to show family and peer support provide better mental health than social gender transition, thus the former is preferable. The studies also showed brain development is at risk by blocking puberty. You're all over say brain mass dropping like 0.01% from covid but this you're all for? Florida's GUIDELINES are in line with the federal Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services age requirement for surgical and non-surgical treatment. These guidelines are also in line with the guidance, reviews, and recommendations from Sweden, Finland, the United Kingdom, and France. Why are these GUIDELINES so horrible? And, again, they are GUIDELINES. It's like complaining that the CDC is saying FUCK YOU to medium-rare steak lovers because it's the GUIDELINE, yet go to any steakhouse and you can order it. Again, you're complaining about something that effectively does nothing. This is why I have to ask for proof.

What the fuck for? None of that information is relevant to a driver’s licence.

I don't know, it's on there and I really don't care. I doubt my weight is accurate (I don't even know the last time I weighed myself), I just say "yes" that the weight is still the same on renewals.

 

[Buyetyen]

Why? Marriage mainly gives tax benefits that don't really need to be a thing anyway.

Oh look! Phoenix ignoring previous arguments that are inconvenient to his narrative. Who's surprised?

The SC's decision isn't based on how they feel about abortion but the actual law.

Then you are as naive as you are arrogant.

If you want abortion to be federal law, add an amendment or argue it better with the current amendments. America is different than most countries as states are sorta their own country so if it's not in the constitution, it's the state to dictate the law (which have pros and cons but that is the law of the land). It's a law debate, not a policy debate.

No, the anti-abortion crusade has always been about race. About class. About power. Alito's arguments would not pass muster in law school, he just doesn't give a shit. There are a lot of rights that aren't specifically codified in the Constitution but are still considered rights because of the 9th Amendment. To quote:

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

This is what Alito's "originalist" take is really worth. He completely ignores the 9th Amendment in order to achieve a political agenda.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

The whole outing trans people to cops because it's on an ID is ridiculous to begin with, where has this police harassment that you claim happens happened?

Basic Google search

Why police often single out trans people for violence

The deaths of Layleen Polanco and Tony McDade highlight how Black trans Americans are treated and criminalized.

www.vox.com

It's not theoretical, it's biology. Men grower far more after puberty than women.

Mugsy Bogues does not have a height advantage due to being a man

Your linked research comes back with "Some people may notice minor changes in shoe size or height" and "Height and shoe size changes are always small" and one of them is a Quora page, might as well use Yahoo Answers at this point. And you claimed women regularly get shorter after pregnancy and I saw nothing that even speculated that.

Minor changes are still changes

Conflating the argument that "gay men can still get married" with "trans can still play sports" is complete bullshit logic.

And yet, it's the logic you chose

So, I went back and read these HORRIBLE GUIDELINES that say FUCK YOU to trans people. You're mad that Florida used science to come up with medical GUIDELINES? The studies linked to show family and peer support provide better mental health than social gender transition, thus the former is preferable. The studies also showed brain development is at risk by blocking puberty. You're all over say brain mass dropping like 0.01% from covid but this you're all for? Florida's GUIDELINES are in line with the federal Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services age requirement for surgical and non-surgical treatment. These guidelines are also in line with the guidance, reviews, and recommendations from Sweden, Finland, the United Kingdom, and France. Why are these GUIDELINES so horrible? And, again, they are GUIDELINES. It's like complaining that the CDC is saying FUCK YOU to medium-rare steak lovers because it's the GUIDELINE, yet go to any steakhouse and you can order it. Again, you're complaining about something that effectively does nothing. This is why I have to ask for proof.

No dude, Florida is lying about that research to have state health agencies ban social transitioning. And you're falling for it because you're dramatically incurious.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/04/20/florida-gender-dysphoria-memo/

The blue text in that article are called "hyperlinks". If you click on it, it will redirect your webpage to more information

EDIT:

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

*sigh*

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

*sigh*

Is anyone surprised? Showing killing in media is A-OK, but depictions of sex or sexuality will "corrupt our children".

 

[Cheetodust]

Basic Google search

Why police often single out trans people for violence

The deaths of Layleen Polanco and Tony McDade highlight how Black trans Americans are treated and criminalized.

www.vox.com

Mugsy Bogues does not have a height advantage due to being a man
Minor changes are still changes
And yet, it's the logic you chose
No dude, Florida is lying about that research to have state health agencies ban social transitioning. And you're falling for it because you're dramatically incurious.

Nah he just doesn't like trans people so this suits his worldview.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Oh look! Phoenix ignoring previous arguments that are inconvenient to his narrative. Who's surprised?



Then you are as naive as you are arrogant.



No, the anti-abortion crusade has always been about race. About class. About power. Alito's arguments would not pass muster in law school, he just doesn't give a shit. There are a lot of rights that aren't specifically codified in the Constitution but are still considered rights because of the 9th Amendment. To quote:



This is what Alito's "originalist" take is really worth. He completely ignores the 9th Amendment in order to achieve a political agenda.

What arguments? Like say a wife being able to see her husband in the hospital, which can be done via some other paperwork in place of marriage, it's the same amount of paperwork either way.

It is bad law regardless of if you think the judges are biased and don't like abortion. RBG said as much too and she was very pro abortion.

You'll all completely ignoring how unique abortion is to law and there's really nothing in the constitution that directly guarantees the right. You might be able to argue it with equal protection vs privacy like RBG said herself.

Basic Google search

Why police often single out trans people for violence

The deaths of Layleen Polanco and Tony McDade highlight how Black trans Americans are treated and criminalized.

www.vox.com

Mugsy Bogues does not have a height advantage due to being a man

Minor changes are still changes

And yet, it's the logic you chose

No dude, Florida is lying about that research to have state health agencies ban social transitioning. And you're falling for it because you're dramatically incurious.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/04/20/florida-gender-dysphoria-memo/

The blue text in that article are called "hyperlinks". If you click on it, it will redirect your webpage to more information

EDIT:

And those trans people had bad things happen because they are trans? The article said the one cop used a racial slur and shot, that sounds like racism, not transphobia. One other story is about them not checking up on someone because they thought they were sleeping, which I'd venture happens a lot of the time to anyone. You think if you get footage of them checking solitary of non trans people, you think they actually checking every 15mins?

He does if he grew after puberty.

A 5-inch height growth after puberty and a 1-inch reduction in transitioning is still a 4-inch advantage.

You chose that.

I guess Sweden fucking hates trans people too? Here's their guidelines and evidence. Florida just hates trans people but comes to the same conclusions as a far more progressive country than the US did...?

Summary of Key Recommendations from the Swedish National Board of Health and Welfare (Socialstyrelsen/NBHW)

Background In February 2022, the Swedish National Board of Health and Welfare (NBHW) issued an update to its health care service guidelines for children and youth

segm.org

 

[Buyetyen]

It is bad law regardless of if you think the judges are biased and don't like abortion. RBG said as much too and she was very pro abortion.

Dude, stop. You're just using her as a shield to justify being pro-forced birth.

You'll all completely ignoring how unique abortion is to law and there's really nothing in the constitution that directly guarantees the right.

So, again, you agree with Alito, not RBG.

And those trans people had bad things happen because they are trans? The article said the one cop used a racial slur and shot, that sounds like racism, not transphobia.

Because different types of bigotry are mutually exclusive. No bigot targets multiple marginalized groups. /s

I guess Sweden fucking hates trans people too? Here's their guidelines and evidence. Florida just hates trans people but comes to the same conclusions as a far more progressive country than the US did...?

Summary of Key Recommendations from the Swedish National Board of Health and Welfare (Socialstyrelsen/NBHW)

Background In February 2022, the Swedish National Board of Health and Welfare (NBHW) issued an update to its health care service guidelines for children and youth

segm.org

Yeah, Sweden fucked up. Shock and awe, progressives are not a hivemind and can be fallible!

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Dude, stop. You're just using her as a shield to justify being pro-forced birth.



So, again, you agree with Alito, not RBG.



Because different types of bigotry are mutually exclusive. No bigot targets multiple marginalized groups. /s



Yeah, Sweden fucked up. Shock and awe, progressives are not a hivemind and can be fallible!

I'm not pro-forced birth...

I don't really agree with either, I don't know that law well enough. I don't honestly know if the constitution the way it is allows for abortion to be dictated on a federal level. I do know the current argument does not. The right is not directly in the constitution as in it's not mentioned directly, that's not to say you can't argue it is indirectly by using current amendments.

I asked for evidence cops will harass trans people by seeing sex on a drivers license and still have no evidence that they do. You know the same things you use to prove other police harassment like pulling over more blacks at higher rates.

Why did Sweden fuck up? Just because they didn't agree with you? What actual bad science have they used that is wrong vs you just not liking their conclusions?