Ukraine
- Thread starter Silvanus
- Start date
Should have started that years ago. I'd have thought that Trump turning the US into a wild-card would have pointed that out to everyone, but no.
Conspiracy theories can, and frequently do, tangentially involve events that are true.
It's not really a secret.
The secret bit is all the anti-semitism and Nazbol shit, but even that's not very secret.
Sure, and?
There are two readings of the point you're trying to make here. A charitable reading would be that US intelligence agencies have a proven history of ignoring the supposed ethical and ideological convictions of the government of which they are part. A less charitable but unfortunately more plausible reading is that US intelligence agencies just have a massive, raging boner for right-wing death squads.
When your understanding of the world ceases to be rooted in the incentives and dynamics that motivate people and becomes rooted in beliefs about the intrinsic moral worth of groups to which those people belong, that's where you've crossed the line into conspiracy theory, even if some of the events you're describing are real. Because once you think in those terms it doesn't actually matter whether they're real any more.
Again, what is the point being made here?
A charitable reading would be that soldiers on UN peacekeeping missions have sometimes abused their positions for personal gain or to exploit populations they are supposedly defending (in fact, the incident you are describing is the absolute tip of the iceberg in terms of that, although it is somewhat exceptional in involving peacekeepers from NATO countries). However, once again the more plausible reading is that NATO as an organization just loves sex trafficking.
Moreover, why are these events connected?
Who exactly are these people supposedly calling the shots and orchestrating this whole event? What are their incentives? What are the mechanisms by which they exercise this control? What counterveiling forces oppose them, and how do they overcome those forces?
You know, imagine for one second that this huge and tragic event is the product of human action, rather than the Manichean clash of moral forces.
At what point did I evoke the Nuremberg defence?
Ah. Whilst of course Russia and its own Nazi PMCs may do whatever it wishes: the same does not apply there. One side must withdraw, because there are some Nazis in their ranks; the other side may continue unabated, and must be unopposed, regardless of Nazis in their ranks.
An utterly discredited narrative spun wholly from Russian state propaganda, bearing almost no relation to what occurred.
The Yanukovych government was elected freely and fairly (though notably after he had already attempted to commit mass fraud and intimidation at an earlier election, but failed). He then utterly betrayed everything it had stood for in the election: the population widely supported broader EU integration, and Yanukovych had run on a platform to continue this, before he about-turned into a pro-Russia platform nobody had voted for, and which was extraordinarily unpopular.
He was bought and paid for by a hostile foreign state. Do you remember Yanukovych's own advisor staying that the nation of Ukraine should be destroyed? Do you recall that the Euromaidan protest involved greater involvement from Nazis on the anti-Maidan side?
"Orientalist", of course-- here we have the equation of any criticism of despicable state policy with racism towards the people, directly from the Likud playbook. Very classy.
Moscow is bankrolling Ukraine rebels: ex-separatist official
A former senior official from breakaway eastern Ukraine said Russia directly finances pensions and public sector salaries in the two pro-Russian regions there.
www.reuters.com
It's no fucking secret that Russia sponsored the Donetsk and Luhansk separatists for 8 years: supplied arms and armour, snuck disguised troops over the border. And we have indication that public expenditure was provided by Moscow as well. And its paramilitaries were extensively involved in anti-Maidan movements in '14, as well; the greatest foreign involvement by a country mile.
And you're here trying to argue that American expenditure, numbering in the... hundreds of thousands, essentially a drop on the ocean, has overwhelmingly dictated the direction of Ukrainian policy. Don't make me laugh. Russia has been shovelling money into coercing Ukrainian national policy for decades.
I was referring to 2019, internationally accepted as free and fair. The 2010 election, of course, was also free and fair... and then followed by a complete about-turn by the victor, into a policy direction nobody had voted for, prompting widespread unrest.
You also seem to be forgetting that in 2014, the Russian-backed insurgents prevented the election from taking place within the borders of their self-proclaimed territory. While Russia prevented it from taking place in Crimea. Sorry, you're here blaming Ukraine for being unable to run an election in territory that had been taken from it by force by Russia? Clownery.
Except, of course, that the outrage is present in these cases also. Russia's coercion and totalitarian expansionism in these other areas is sickening as well-- and I've personally commented on Chechnya and Armenia on these forums. I've been consistent. It's true that Ukraine has garnered the highest attention recently.... because, you know, the ongoing death toll is stratospherically higher at the moment. Funny how that works!
And one could indeed add Syria to that list-- where Russia maintains a presence in the form of its neo-Nazi paramilitary, still committing atrocities against the native population after almost all American troops have headed home. Did your "outrage" there evaporate the moment the evil West withdrew?
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Russian soldiers murdered a musical conductor because he wouldn't play music for their event.
www.theguardian.com
Russian troops kill Ukrainian musician for refusing role in Kherson concert
International condemnation swift after conductor Yuriy Kerpatenko shot dead in his home
www.theguardian.com
Is the United States or any of its NATO partners providing weapons, funding, or material assistance to Russian forces or pro-Russian paramilitaries?
Once again, an attempt to DARVO and change the subject away from my argument neither the US nor its partners should be arming, training, or funding Nazis. We have, we are, and you have not countered that point but rather tried to continually deny or shift blame because you know damn well it's true and can't honestly defend it.
"Everything I don't like is Russian propaganda". The latest well-known, infamous, Russian propaganda outlet being, let me check my notes here...oh, the National Endowment for Democracy.
A Conversation with NED Partners on the Situation in Ukraine - NATIONAL ENDOWMENT FOR DEMOCRACY
On March 4, 2022, the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) heard compelling messages about the crisis in Ukraine from four leading civil society activists: Oleh Rybachuk…
www.ned.org
Of course if that's not enough, here's its (archived) grant results for "NGO's" and "civic activists" in Ukraine starting from Euromaidan.
Congratulations for having discovered freely and fairly elected politicians lie. He was still freely and fairly elected, the US still didn't like that, and the US still astroturfed a protest movement and attempted coup against a regime they didn't like. Just like, let me check my notes again...Korea, Vietnam, Philippines, Cambodia, Indonesia, Myanmar, Laos, Greece, France, Honduras, Cuba, Nicaragua, Haiti, the Dominican Republic, Costa Rica, Guatemala, Chile, Bolivia, Brazil, Argentina, Paraguay, Brazil, Iran, Iraq, Syria...oh, fuck it.
Yeah, how dare I remind folks the exceptionalization of Russians among Slavic peoples is directly linked to anti-Asian racism, founded in the concept of racial hierarchies and scientific racism, and existed long before and after the existence of the Soviet Union.
"The idea we supported those people is purely Russian propaganda!"Moscow is bankrolling Ukraine rebels: ex-separatist official
A former senior official from breakaway eastern Ukraine said Russia directly finances pensions and public sector salaries in the two pro-Russian regions there.
It's no fucking secret that Russia sponsored the Donetsk and Luhansk separatists for 8 years: supplied arms and armour, snuck disguised troops over the border. And we have indication that public expenditure was provided by Moscow as well. And its paramilitaries were extensively involved in anti-Maidan movements in '14, as well; the greatest foreign involvement by a country mile.
And you're here trying to argue that American expenditure, numbering in the... hundreds of thousands, essentially a drop on the ocean, has overwhelmingly dictated the direction of Ukrainian policy. Don't make me laugh. Russia has been shovelling money into coercing Ukrainian national policy for decades.
Thirty seconds later...
"Russia spent more money influencing pro-Russian Ukrainians than we did those people!"
I mean, just as long as we ignore the fact we've been spending since the collapse of the Soviet Union to influence Ukraine away from Russia and for it to join the Eurozone and NATO, and we admit this. And as long as we only look at asspull numbers about what the Russians spent, and make zero attempt to follow any money from the West whatsoever, and ignore the expenditures to which we admit. And as long as we ignore that every step of this process followed the established Cold War containment playbook to the letter. And we ignore how you're still playing relative privation games.
Pick a lane, dude.
Of course you are, it's the only fucking Ukrainian election in the past twenty years that incidentally supports your argument and it's the only one you can cherry pick.
Is Crimea the same location as Donbas?
Where's the 150-page thread about those countries? Because, this is what I found,
Civil Unrest in Kazakhstan plus Russia sending Troops.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-59880166 https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/troops-protesters-clash-almaty-main-square-kazakhstan-shots-heard-2022-01-06/ So there's a country in Central Asia called Kazakhstan where there have been protests over the price of energy, and there are...
forums.escapistmagazine.com
A six-page thread, the first half of which was reminding you that resource wars are, in fact, resource wars, and under what circumstances the US and Russia would have vested interest to interfere and/or start them. While you continued with the boilerplate Red Scare 3.0 nonsense.
It did when the US stopped funding, arming, and training two disparate radical Islamist groups -- one of which being the party responsible for 9/11 -- too busy fighting each other than to unite against the forces they were supposed to be fighting. Who, by the way, just happened to be pro-Russian. Amazing coincidence, that. It's almost as if my grievance here is Western interference with foreign governments with interests contrary to our imperial ambition, support for violent political extremism when it suits our strategic interest, and exploiting violent political extremists as proxies against geopolitical rivals.
Because just like Syria, if the US hadn't been fucking around in the first place, there wouldn't have been a fucking war to begin with.
And that retroactively makes those events not true?
Call the argument the US and NATO does heinous shit a conspiracy theory, expect examples of the US and NATO doing heinous shit.
Well it's good to know we're on the same page.
The irony of this is I'm the one calling it simple realpolitik and arguing others shouldn't be moralizing the conflict into demonstrably false, dichotomous, "Russia bad!"/"West good!" nonsense. If anything, I'd argue realpolitik is neither moral nor immoral; it is amoral.
But insofar as who is waging the conflict and for what reasons, I didn't think there'd be a day where we'd be arguing whether Nazis exist or are evil...on this forum, of all places. I'd think "Nazis are bad" is an supposition upon which we should all be able to agree.
The position in opposition to mine is the US isn't doing -- and hasn't done -- heinous shit in Ukraine. And by extension, the US didn't start this shit by doing heinous shit in Ukraine. Because apparently, the last 233 years (but more importantly, the last 88 of that) of the US doing heinous shit and starting regional conflicts across the globe by doing heinous shit, isn't track record enough to demonstrate doing heinous shit is absolutely in-character for the US.
You're the one calling this a conspiracy theory in direct face of the entire history of the United States of America.
...Moving on.
Ah yes, "reverse victim and offender", he says as he asserts that the invaded country is entirely to blame, and the invader is blameless.
Your argument is predicated on the idea that arming, training + funding Ukrainian armed forces = always arming, training + funding Nazis. In truth the Nazis make up a small fraction of the Ukrainian armed forces; a few thousand at most, disregarding your armchair speculation from earlier. But you don't want them withdrawing support merely from the neo-Fascist battalions. You want all foreign involvement withdrawn... but only from one side, so that a foreign invasion on the other side-- with its own Nazi paramilitaries-- can steamroll unopposed and carve out their chunk of lebensraum.
Firstly, putting aside the fact that these sources still don't actually support the utterly discredited idea that Western involvement outweighs Russian involvement: we're just equating any and all orgs with Western governments now, are we?"Everything I don't like is Russian propaganda". The latest well-known, infamous, Russian propaganda outlet being, let me check my notes here...oh, the National Endowment for Democracy.
A Conversation with NED Partners on the Situation in Ukraine - NATIONAL ENDOWMENT FOR DEMOCRACY
On March 4, 2022, the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) heard compelling messages about the crisis in Ukraine from four leading civil society activists: Oleh Rybachuk…
Of course if that's not enough, here's its (archived) grant results for "NGO's" and "civic activists" in Ukraine starting from Euromaidan.
"Astroturfing" meaning that they provided a minuscule amount of money, while Russia pumped exorbitantly higher amounts in (as well as getting surreptitiously directly involved via those hired far-right groups they usually favour, of course). Yet again: foreign involvement on one side is unacceptable, completely delegitimises any claim they have, and completely explains that side's success; foreign involvement on the other side, to a far greater degree, can just be handily ignored.
Blah blah blah. I didn't invoke any of that. I'm talking about Russia because they're the ones who chose to forcibly annex more territory than any other world power for the last 80 years, and are currently indulging in genocidal practices such as forced deportation and mass execution in the streets.
You're equating criticism of policy with racism. You're pulling exactly the same fucking rank far-right tactics that the Likud hypocrites do.
I didn't even deny that we supported those people...? Fucking hell, pay attention. I've literally not said that, you're hallucinating.
Russia did it far more. Russian foreign intervention vastly outweighs Western foreign intervention in Ukraine, even during Maidan. But you don't give a shit: you actively malign any opposition to it, even from the natives, as unjust and invalid. You don't oppose foreign intervention at all: you want complete foreign domination from a specific side.
"Cherry picking", ok. It's not at all relevant that it brought to power the government that Russia is now trying to overthrow. You know, so the validity of that election directly informs the mandate of the current government we're actually talking about.
? No, why? But Russian and Russian-sponsored forces prevented the election from taking place in both Crimea and large swathes of the Donbas, so both are relevant to the point.
"Reminding me" of more excuses for Russian coercion of native populations in other countries. Right. So to put it another way: I was consistent in condemnation of Russian aggression whether the targets were European or central-Asian, then, and your cynical invocations of racism can fuck right off back to the far-right playbook.Where's the 150-page thread about those countries? Because, this is what I found,
Civil Unrest in Kazakhstan plus Russia sending Troops.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-59880166 https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/troops-protesters-clash-almaty-main-square-kazakhstan-shots-heard-2022-01-06/ So there's a country in Central Asia called Kazakhstan where there have been protests over the price of energy, and there are...
A six-page thread, the first half of which was reminding you that resource wars are, in fact, resource wars, and under what circumstances the US and Russia would have vested interest to interfere and/or start them. While you continued with the boilerplate Red Scare 3.0 nonsense.
Cool. Yes. The thing is, we both agree American involvement there was wrong. You know, because America was involved in invading.
It's just that my condemnation extends to the other imperial powers, who still have their blood-stained, Nazi PMC hands in the pie. Whereas you've stopped giving a shit now that the West is out of the picture.
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Something can form a foundational part of one's worldview (or be important in a variety of other ways) without being directly invoked, Silvanus.
No one doubts that you are consistently anti-Russian, Silvanus. You've made that quite clear.
There is no inconsistency in focusing on the problems of one's own government (and associates) which is founded on the principle that theoretically that is who we have influence over.
There is no inconsistency in focusing on the problems posed by the global hegemony, which is founded on the principle that a global hegemony is a serious issue for the entire globe-- and theoretically, we should all have influence over that issue if not that government.
There is no inconsistency in not seeing fit to comment on other countries in ways that help that government and that global hegemony (which is more or less the same thing in this historical reality) achieve its ambitions of global domination.
There is no inconsistency in demanding that the United States not fund, train, or elsewise support Nazis and leaving aside questions of whether or not Russia arguably does the same in some capacity; "but Russia does it too" is not an answer and is not particularly relevant to the behavior of the United States in this regard.
Then why is Nazi symbology all over their war propaganda? Are those few thousand all the Ukrainian armed forces have?
In related news, why do Nazis outside of Ukraine like Ukraine('s current power structure) so damned much?
Oh, sorry, he's not a Nazi-- he only said those things as a youngster in September 2020. Ancient history, really. He was only trying to fit in! Never mind who with.
What did they say that was demonstrably false, or more importantly demonstrably false at the time it was said? Was it actually demonstrably false or just in disagreement with whatever you'd rather believe instead? Does whatever example you'll bring up make them any less credible than the BBC, New York Times, CNN, or whatever other mainstream propaganda permeates The Discourse™?
In any case, please develop some self-awareness and apply this skepticism consistently.
False dichotomy, you can have neither genital warts nor explosive diarrhea, too.
You really, really want that to be the case, don't you. Nah.
I'm saying you're doing it to cape for Nazis.
So here's the tiny, inconsequential, ultra-minority with no influence having a normal one.
Of course, by "normal one" I mean celebrating the foundation of the UPA, the Nazi collaborationist guerilla army that committed genocides of the Poles, Roma, and Jews (among others) in Ukraine and abroad. That was made into a national holiday by act of Verkhovna Rada in 2015.
"But it's Intercession Day, and that was important to the original Cossacks!" I can hear you already attempt to claim. Which is, of course, why they're chanting Stepan Bandera's and Roman Shukhevych's names, calling them Ukrainian heroes, and waving OUN/UPA flags. As one typically does to celebrate Orthodox Christianity or the Cossacks. "But it's their Veteran's Day" I can hear you also attempt to claim, and yeah, it is their Veteran's Day. It's just sheer fucking coincidence the only "veterans" celebrated are Nazis.
And even then, remember the earlier conversation about how Nazis culturally appropriate shit to legitimize themselves? Of course you won't.
You have literally no idea what the National Endowment for Democracy is, do you.
Again, citation ************.
We can add false dichotomy to relative privation, now.
As opposed to funding coups and ousting governments in favor of puppet regimes that are only nominally independent, such that one gets the benefits of annexation without the costs associated with it, right?
And (attempted) guilt by association.
Actually that would have been the 2014 election, unless of course you're arguing once again Ukraine didn't actually exist before 2019 at the same time you want to lay stake to the claim this started with Euromaidan and the annexation of Crimea.
The Russian government wasn't the one that refused to accept returns from Donbas, was it?
The only thing you condemned in the Kazakhstan thread was the idea the US would have interfered in another country's internal affairs, and that civil unrest over gas prices was indicative of a resource conflict.
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So you're also pulling from the Likud playbook now, then, equating criticism of state policy with racism. Incredible how quickly and easily you'll stoop to using exactly the same tactics and tropes you've personally derided in the past.
There is great inconsistency in simultaneously arguing that because of "global hegemony", the actions of one state are the concerns of us all, and simultaneously arguing that the actions of another state-- even if they also have a gigantic global impact, and are directly impacting millions upon millions of people outside of that state-- cannot be condemned or opposed by anyone else.
There's an easy answer there: it isn't "all over". But you haven't actually been looking at most of it; you've been looking at whatever a small number of conspiracy theorists and Twitter charlatans point to.
D'you think it's related to the overwhelming admiration for Putin and the Russian government that the global far-right and neo-Nazis have been showing?
Uhrm, yes, easily less credible. Every one of those outlets is deeply flawed, and yet has far greater credibility than the complete dross you dredge up.
In any case, I literally already gave you an example of one of them lying through their teeth. The genocide denial, the MH-17 rubbish. And another is a far-right party leader, but I'm assuming you don't want to leap to their defence (just repost 'em when it's convenient).
XD
Yes: and I'm saying that accusing someone else of doing it, as you flag wave for an invader to crush an invaded nation, is ridiculous.
Pick any country and I'll provide a video of far-right twats chanting in the street. Will you then extrapolate that none of them have the right to self-determination as countries? That all civilian lives are forfeit because they had the misfortune to share a country-of-birth?
Of course I do: that was the one where you insinuated a bunch of unrelated socialists were Nazis, and then pretended you hadn't meant that, that then insisted anyone who disagreed was also a Nazi, because that's your go-to deflection.
Yep. The fact that you think it's influence on Ukraine is greater than Russia's is completely hilarious.
That's odd, you didn't seem to need a source to claim that American money was so overwhelmingly dominant that it has essentially controlled the direction of Ukraine for over a decade. Despite that claim requiring a far higher barrier to cross.
Uhrm, not "as opposed to". "In addition to". Because Russia also did exactly what you just described. In Ukraine. Twice more than the US.
You literally equated criticism of state policy with racism. That's a tactic Likud pioneered. I'm sorry if you don't like it when it's pointed out how often, and how deeply, you rely on far-right tropes and tactics.
Nope. The victor of 2014 was defeated in 2019. This narrative is predicated on the ludicrous reductionist assumption that all governments that aren't aligned with your own sympathies are the same.
Yes: the DPR and LPR were set up and puppeted by Russia, and it was they that refused to allow the election to take place. Meanwhile, Russia did it directly in Crimea as well.
You're a liar. I'm in the very first page criticising Russia. While tankies continued to deflect and excuse Kazakh and Russian state brutality against the Kazakh people.
I have to bring this up because it's dumb.
Russophobia does have a long history, but it's a history stemming from three main sources. The first is the status of the Russian Empire as an expansionist Imperial power and its consequent rivalry with Great Britain for geopolitical dominance. The second is the unusually long persistance of autocracy in Russia and the consequent perception of the Russian state as barbaric and socially regressed. The third is the tendency of Russian romantics towards self-orientalization and attraction to "noble-savage" images of Russian history.
But in general, the Russian Empire was a vast and multicultural (albeit really, really racist) empire with significant military contact with the Islamic world. Describing Russians as "orientalized", particularly in regards to other slavic minorities is a fucking joke. Russians loved Orientalism. They produced huge ammounts of it, both depicting other ethnic minorities within Russia and the "decadent" Islamic world.
Like this early example of a blacked.com meme which is going to have to stand in for all the harem pictures because a lot of them would get me banned.
Don Cossacks calmly destroying the Siberian Khanate with facts and logic.
Just Cossack bros being noble savages together.
The forum doesn't like too many images in long posts, so I'll get to the rest later. Just doing this one because it bugs me.
Which is a false accusation to poison the well, of course. The only argument I've made is the US and NATO should not be funding, arming, and training Nazis. If you've equated that to cheering for Russia -- which by the way, the necessary premise there is supporting Nazism is necessary and proper to support Ukraine -- that's a "you" problem.
On a national holiday, created by legislative act, that specifically celebrates Nazis. Two of whom were given the Hero of Ukraine award, the highest honor Ukraine can confer, which were only annulled by technicality and with court battles pending to restore them.
I mean, it may just be me, but if the Reichstag officially made Remembrance Day a national holiday on November 8th (saying it was the day the German Revolution started, but just happened to be the day of the beer hall putsch); the only "veterans" that ended up celebrated on Remembrance Day were Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, Rudolf Hess, Hermann Goring, and Martin Bormann; statues of those five fellows were being erected across the country; the courts were hearing cases to restore their military decorations; and the parades held on Remembrance Day were full of people carrying swastikas and reichsadlers; I'd be a little skeptical of that, too.
We still have the Klan marching around in some parts of the US, too. We don't have a Klan Appreciation Day, and we don't officially recognize Nathan Bedford Forrest as a national hero.
You're still gonna try to hold onto that bullshit take with everything you got, instead of just admit Nazis culturally appropriate shit to legitimize themselves, aren't you. I'm not the one whose struggles with cognitive dissonance over supporting Nazis are the showcase of the thread, here.
Considering of the two of us, I'm the only one that's produced actual receipts, that's pretty rich.
If you had the first fucking clue what the NED was -- an organization created by the Reagan administration, chartered by act of Congress and administered by the State Department, and funded by Congress through USAID -- I very strongly doubt you would have said, and I quote, "...we're just equating any and all orgs with Western governments now, are we". As that is exactly the definition of what the NED is.
Really doubling down on that guilt by association rather than admit Russophobia is a product of racism, huh?
Well, I'll just cut to the chase then.
Uh-huh, please elaborate on what precisely that perception entailed.
"It can't be racist if they liked it".
It entailed the (largely accurate) perception that Russia was an aristocratic society with an underdeveloped economy and whose population remained divided between a bloated, excessively powerful nobility and a peasantry who still lived in and worked in conditions essentially unchanged since medieval times.
Spare a thought for Germans. The most oppressed race ever.
When will we admit the terrible harm done to Germans and recognize their perfectly valid struggle for racial pride and autonomy against the crippling effects of internalized racism, because nothing bad ever comes of the desire to tie your national character to a (largely imaginary) group of proud, savage warriors who shun the decadence of civilization and multiculturalism in favor of pure-living and martial ethos..
See, so oppressed..
Also, we literally called them huns. Who are the real racists here? I am very smart and have definitely read Orientalism past the first chapter.
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Nope, I've merely taken your words at their intended meaning. "Asking for it", i believe was your characterisation, as civilians across the country were obliterated by indiscriminate war-crimes.
They put up a statue of Nancy Astor quite recently here in the UK. There are statues of slavers and colonialists. I'm a British civilian. Is my life forfeit, too? Want to see how far the bankruptcy of logic goes.
You literally didn't say that, of course: you arrived at that obvious rewrite quite a long while later. Just before you started screaming that anybody disagreeing must themselves be a Nazi, because that's how utterly bankrupt your discourse has become.
I'm well aware. You haven't provided receipts. You've provided a few numberless sources, and a vague insinuation that all NGOs and activists are secretly working for the State Dept.
Do you actually need receipts for Russia funding the insurgency over the last 8 years, by-the-by...? Are we asking for proof water is wet?
Really doubling down on insisting any criticism of Russian state policy is "Russophobia", huh? The Likud tactic. Is there any more bottom-of-the-barrel right-wing deflection than this?
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Are you marching in the street celebrating that heritage on an official national holiday dedicated to it, hailing its perpetrators as national heroes?
Yeah, of course you're sticking to that line based on your deliberate, bad faith, misconstruction of what I said in the first place -- which I clarified in my very next post, for those slow on the uptake.
A line-item list of NED grants to Ukrainian "activist" organizations, on an archive of the NED's own website, is a "numberless source" now, huh?
And no, just the NED for now. What I said was provide sources that didn't come from the State Dept. or neocon/neolib think tanks.
Not any criticism. Just your stubborn, unreasonable, myopic, Western chauvinist doublethink, the only thing about which is truly consistent is its strict adherence to the Russophobic "Red Scare" playbook that's existed for, bare minimum, the past hundred years.
Nope-- but of course, neither are 99.?% of the Ukrainian civilians being slaughtered by the Russian army.
Yes, you clarified that when you said "connected", you actually meant they weren't connected. I already apologise for failing to follow that totally-clear logic. I'm very sorry.
Ah, right-- that source directly from the horse's mouth didn't cut it for you? The problem is, the second that any source says something you don't like, you immediately attribute it to state dept. propaganda.
Empty, nebulous blather-- nothing of substance. There's still the fact that I've not done anything except criticise the actions of the government. The state. Isn't it strange that the largest annexation in 80 years should attract particular criticism! Racism is the only explanation!
You attributing that to racism is directly from the far-right Likud playbook. A right-wing tactic that you yourself rightly derided... until, of course, it was convenient, and you needed to scrape that barrel for more cheap deflections.
Equating criticism of state policy with racism is a right-wing deflection tactic they've popularised more than anybody else in recent years.
I've criticised the actions of a government. Not once attributed those to the people, or characterised the people in any generalised or denigrating way. But you've cynically insinuated it must be racism to do so.
Yeah, that's the rank right-wing deflection shite that Likud employ. That you yourself condemned in the past, riiiight up until it was convenient to drag it out and dust it off when you needed a cheap slur.
Just a friendly reminder that Russia's history of doing heinous shit in the name of its imperial ambitions is far longer than the US. Russia was terrorizing its neighbors centuries before the US was even a thing. And in contrast it has often been far more extreme, and far less justified then whatever the US was doing at the time.