Baldur's Gate 3

sXeth

Elite Member
Legacy
Nov 15, 2012
3,301
676
118
After the hype dies down, maybe people will look at the bigger picture a bit closer. But the game itself seems to be impressive enough that these bugs are a minor caveat. I posted a DF tech review earlier here that I haven’t had time to watch yet, but perhaps they touch on that.



Check out the last investor. If accurate they own about 30% of Larian Group’s shares. Pretty significant chunk.

Found from this discussion on the topic -
Apparently the resorted to equity funding after they nearly went bankrupt.
I mean, you'd be hard pressed to find a videogame (or media in general) company that Tencent doesn't own 5-49% of (including all of the big AAAs and Epic). Unless its literally not an option (or they're absolute garbage). Tencent doesn't really throw money at them though, they buy into whats profitable (unless you're way off on the conspiracy ledge that thinks they're somehow implanting china propaganda into the games)

Larian first pitched BG3 to WOTC in 2014. Right after DOS 1 was released. WOTC thought back then that Larian wasn't experienced enough to handle a project like that. Then few years later WOTC saw DOS2 and contacted Larian asking if they still were interested.
1: Sources, especially considering WotC is happy to let D&D be shovelware historically, propped only by the occasional fleeting semi-quality product (not limited to videogames, 98% of the novels are harlequin romance level).

Anyhow, yeah, funny how that would've been around the time they found out Pathfinder was getting into games too, they suddenly need new flagship prominent D&D game for some reason.

Biggest thing here, is not-actually-a-sequel Baldurs Gate 3 is not an organic idea. Whatever Larian came up with (unless they literally didnt play the original games) can't have been BG3, and even what they put out under that name (an essentially unrelated story, minus one irrelevant cameo) doesn't support it either. Somewhere along the lines WotC decided to try and yank out that brand and their purpose therein implies they would have sunk more notable effort (which boils down to funding) in it then other projects
 

Gordon_4

The Big Engine
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
6,488
5,751
118
Australia
I feel like I'm in a weird space with this game. In so much that I have zero interest in it even though in theory it should be everything I want in a party based fantasy RPG. Very strange feeling to have.
 

Lykosia

Senior Member
May 26, 2020
65
33
23
Country
Finland
I mean, you'd be hard pressed to find a videogame (or media in general) company that Tencent doesn't own 5-49% of (including all of the big AAAs and Epic). Unless its literally not an option (or they're absolute garbage). Tencent doesn't really throw money at them though, they buy into whats profitable (unless you're way off on the conspiracy ledge that thinks they're somehow implanting china propaganda into the games)



1: Sources, especially considering WotC is happy to let D&D be shovelware historically, propped only by the occasional fleeting semi-quality product (not limited to videogames, 98% of the novels are harlequin romance level).

Anyhow, yeah, funny how that would've been around the time they found out Pathfinder was getting into games too, they suddenly need new flagship prominent D&D game for some reason.

Biggest thing here, is not-actually-a-sequel Baldurs Gate 3 is not an organic idea. Whatever Larian came up with (unless they literally didnt play the original games) can't have been BG3, and even what they put out under that name (an essentially unrelated story, minus one irrelevant cameo) doesn't support it either. Somewhere along the lines WotC decided to try and yank out that brand and their purpose therein implies they would have sunk more notable effort (which boils down to funding) in it then other projects

EDIT: BG3 > BG1 and BG2. I have never finished BG2. BG1 I did finish back in the day. The old D&D rules were just so bad. Current 5e are much better, but still not my preferred RPG system. I always take skill based games over class/level based. RuneQuest, Call of Cthulhu, Traveller etc.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

09philj

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 31, 2015
2,154
948
118
I feel like I'm in a weird space with this game. In so much that I have zero interest in it even though in theory it should be everything I want in a party based fantasy RPG. Very strange feeling to have.
Is it that it's in the Forgotten Realms?
 

Gordon_4

The Big Engine
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
6,488
5,751
118
Australia
Is it that it's in the Forgotten Realms?
Not really, all I know about Forgotten Realms is what I've picked up at my neighbour's AD&D 2Ed campaign, which is not a lot.

But I just look at Baldur's Gate 3 in all its glory and......nothing. No response on any level.
 

Old_Hunter_77

Elite Member
Dec 29, 2021
2,191
2,028
118
Country
United States
I feel like I'm in a weird space with this game. In so much that I have zero interest in it even though in theory it should be everything I want in a party based fantasy RPG. Very strange feeling to have.
I keep thinking that too but then I count the ways it turns me off:
- turn-based combat
- save-scumming
- early difficulty + huge game = probable mass frustration

So I'm interested in it as a piece of art more than something I actually want to play right now.
If I do ever play it, it'll be when I've kind of run out of games AND TV shows. The former isn't happening till after Thanksgiving probably? and the latter likely sooner
 

sXeth

Elite Member
Legacy
Nov 15, 2012
3,301
676
118

EDIT: BG3 > BG1 and BG2. I have never finished BG2. BG1 I did finish back in the day. The old D&D rules were just so bad. Current 5e are much better, but still not my preferred RPG system. I always take skill based games over class/level based. RuneQuest, Call of Cthulhu, Traveller etc.
OH BG3 is almost definitely better then the clunky first two.

Anyhow that article (the first one anyways, the second basically says nothing) basically just confirms what I said if anything. WotC came up with "Baldurs Gate 3", Larian was "oh we'll do it" and presumably turned down originally. Its not really countering any idea that this wasn't WotC's pony (and their cashflow) that Larian happened to end up being the ones to execute.

The article also mentions specifically that they could never do the "triple A level married to this style" before either.

WotC has their metaphorical pony for this decade now though, so expect the shovelware to fly out to capitilize, just like it did in the mid 2000s, just like it did in the mid 90s, just like the books did off the back of The Legacy or the original Dragonlance sage. The odds that they'll help foot another bill are, based on historical precedence, kind of low. Larian might want to have another go, but whether they can pull it off solo remains a question.
 

Phoenixmgs

The Muse of Fate
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
9,704
832
118
w/ M'Kraan Crystal
Gender
Male
Divinity Original Sin II has almost certainly outsold everything Obsidian has made since New Vegas and the financial rough ride precipitated by Deadfire selling poorly definitely helped push them towards being acquired by Microsoft. Larian have managed to remain independent and continuously make bigger and better games since Divinity: Original Sin. Their consistent profitability makes them an outlier in the modern CRPG scene, a big one. However much like their contemporaries they're probably only one failed title away from needing a corporate bailout. You can lose a *lot* of money as a midsize developer.
I feel like Pillars type games aren't very viable nowadays. The writing is really really dense and I don't think people like real-time and pause combat from the old-school days, I never have. Even Nick mentioned how he doesn't care for that style of combat either in one of the Escapist podcasts/streams on BG3. Divinity OS1 would've bankrupted Larian if it wasn't successful.

You can make like a 20 hour RPG if you don't have the funding or capital, you don't need to make something as big as BG3. You can make a Disco Elysium.


Check out the last investor. If accurate they own about 30% of Larian Group’s shares. Pretty significant chunk.

Found from this discussion on the topic -
Apparently the resorted to equity funding after they nearly went bankrupt.
Tencent owns shares in tons of video game companies.


And here's a fun Polygon article gleefully hurling herself into BG3 discourse

Personally, the idea of save scumming as part of playing a video game sounds miserable. How is this fun for anybody?!
But if the "right" way to play is to not save scum and accept consequences, why do so many people play it "wrong?" But then conventional gamer wisdom is "there is no wrong way to play, play how you like etc."

I'm having fun with this game I'm not playing lol
I totally accept any decisions unless it's a misclick or it was something I quite didn't understand fully.

Also there are no social restrictions on the rest of the table's time, so if you want to get really tedious by stealing everything not nailed down or investigate pointless corners you can do that. As a result the pacing of the actual game itself can be hurt if you have no self control in that regard. Which leads me to the other point of having too much to poke and pick at. Too many little pointless baubles of bullshit to look at and fuck with mean that trying to be through in an area is annoying but also can lead to burn out in later areas of the game.

Does anybody else do this? Where you start a game being super explorative, or hype focused on trying to do every quest and loot every chest, but then by the mid to late game you're like, "OMG just be over already!?" It's happened to me on a lot of games I've tried to 100% and i fear that over potential to poke at a bunch of nothing can lead to that later in BG3 especially when you're 150 hours deep and ready to see the credits.

There are also come issues with spells especially cantrips that don't let you cast them outside of combat when you should be able to. Things like Mage Hand can only be cast once outside of combat per long rest, when that isn't how cantrips work. So I don't really understand why that's an issue. Mostly though the issues are simply limited to being a video game and unlike D&D IRL where the imagination is the limit, there are only so many things the game can have in them. Luckily those limits are quite wide for being a video game for sure.
I'm exploring every section of the map but not really caring about looting since it's DnD and loot doesn't matter too much. We started our Pathfinder 2E campaign at like level 1 or 2 and I've only switched my weapon ONCE and we're level 17 now and I still have the same armor on since level 1, just added some runes to it. I'm still pretty low level in my DnD 5E campaign, started level 2 and we're level 5 now IIRC, and only got one thing to up my AC a bit so far. Video game RPGs with their loot systems are just adding pointless busy work for really no reason, I played with a mod for Divinity OS2 so I didn't have to partake in the loot system in that game either.

Quick question with magic and concentration. I'm really early still and I have no clue how concentration works (even though I know how it does work in DnD). I tried casting witch bolt which is supposed to last 10 rounds and it hits the first round and it's still active the 2nd round. I'm playing with a controller and when I cursor over the enemy that has witch bolt on him on that 2nd turn, it's says press A to activate witch bolt, which I do but nothing happens (I assume the trigger is maybe at the end of my turn then but no damage is done). Then, I'll go to cast a basic cantrip like ray of frost (that doesn't require or break concentration) and then Gale ends concentration of witch bolt right after his turn as shown in the combat log (and he didn't get hit or anything).

I keep thinking that too but then I count the ways it turns me off:
- turn-based combat
- save-scumming
- early difficulty + huge game = probable mass frustration

So I'm interested in it as a piece of art more than something I actually want to play right now.
If I do ever play it, it'll be when I've kind of run out of games AND TV shows. The former isn't happening till after Thanksgiving probably? and the latter likely sooner
-Few video game RPGs do good turn-based combat. You should think of it more like XCOM style combat (which is basically DnD combat with guns) vs standard RPG turn-based combat (if that is what you're thinking of)
-You really don't need to save scum
-I haven't had any issues with early difficulty (playing on the balanced/default difficulty) and don't really know the ins and outs of the game (like I don't even get how concentration completely works in-game vs DnD and I have 2 full spellcasters in my party) and no party wipes or anything.
 

CriticalGaming

Elite Member
Legacy
Dec 28, 2017
11,276
5,701
118
Quick question with magic and concentration. I'm really early still and I have no clue how concentration works (even though I know how it does work in DnD). I tried casting witch bolt which is supposed to last 10 rounds and it hits the first round and it's still active the 2nd round. I'm playing with a controller and when I cursor over the enemy that has witch bolt on him on that 2nd turn, it's says press A to activate witch bolt, which I do but nothing happens (I assume the trigger is maybe at the end of my turn then but no damage is done). Then, I'll go to cast a basic cantrip like ray of frost (that doesn't require or break concentration) and then Gale ends concentration of witch bolt right after his turn as shown in the combat log (and he didn't get hit or anything).
Im not quite sure, that's not how it's supposed to work. But there might have been some environmental thing that caused a Concentration check that Gale failed and you missed it. Perhaps splash damage or something on the ground. Not really sure what happen though without seeing the gameplay. The combat log is actually pretty shitty as it only covers major things and missed a lot of stuff, so just because it's not in the log doesn't mean it didn't happen.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Phoenixmgs

09philj

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 31, 2015
2,154
948
118
I feel like Pillars type games aren't very viable nowadays. The writing is really really dense and I don't think people like real-time and pause combat from the old-school days, I never have. Even Nick mentioned how he doesn't care for that style of combat either in one of the Escapist podcasts/streams on BG3. Divinity OS1 would've bankrupted Larian if it wasn't successful.

You can make like a 20 hour RPG if you don't have the funding or capital, you don't need to make something as big as BG3. You can make a Disco Elysium.
ZA/UM had to get a big investment from a dodgy Estonian businessman to make DE which directly led to the acrimonious ongoing legal battle between the studios founders and it's current CEO.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

sXeth

Elite Member
Legacy
Nov 15, 2012
3,301
676
118
And here's a fun Polygon article gleefully hurling herself into BG3 discourse

Personally, the idea of save scumming as part of playing a video game sounds miserable. How is this fun for anybody?!
But if the "right" way to play is to not save scum and accept consequences, why do so many people play it "wrong?" But then conventional gamer wisdom is "there is no wrong way to play, play how you like etc."

I'm having fun with this game I'm not playing lol
Well the problem is thusly.

In D&D actual, you fail a roll. Usually "Things happen" and <whatever> ensues as a result. If your DM is vaguely competent it will not so much be a "Failure" as an alteration of events and opportunity for improvisation.

In D&D videogame, none of that applies. Everything is very binary and its one of the main reasons that the baseline premise of "lets make actual D&D" (as opposed to adapting some of the lore and concepts) is still a poor imitation at best, even if you do the best one ever made. With the bulk of games that use these systems have been gradually abandoning them for a staight "do you have X skill" check, or at he very least having invisible mechanics adjusting the rolls to offset it (or visible, BG3 actually has its "karmic dice" to try and do so)

Its a not a criqiue wholly unique to D&D either, of course. "Xcom odds" is basically a meme for how an allegedly strategy game cause just be completely undone by the whims of RNG even if the tactics and preparation are effectively perfect (and has its own trouble with save scumming).
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

Phoenixmgs

The Muse of Fate
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
9,704
832
118
w/ M'Kraan Crystal
Gender
Male
Im not quite sure, that's not how it's supposed to work. But there might have been some environmental thing that caused a Concentration check that Gale failed and you missed it. Perhaps splash damage or something on the ground. Not really sure what happen though without seeing the gameplay. The combat log is actually pretty shitty as it only covers major things and missed a lot of stuff, so just because it's not in the log doesn't mean it didn't happen.
I'm going load the autosave that's right before the fight and try to figure out how to use these concentration spells properly, maybe it's a controller issue.

ZA/UM had to get a big investment from a dodgy Estonian businessman to make DE which directly led to the acrimonious ongoing legal battle between the studios founders and it's current CEO.
So are you trying to say Disco Elysium is too expensive a game for most studios to make?

The point is you were adamant that they totally self-funded their game, but it’s doubtful especially seeing as they nearly went bankrupt beforehand.
Selling shares is how companies normally get money. Larian doesn't have like EA or Ubisoft or Bethesda infusing them with money to make a game. Nor did they have WOTC infusing them with money because of the DnD license (as some dev said and Larian said "what funding?"), Larian had to pay for the license.
 

Lykosia

Senior Member
May 26, 2020
65
33
23
Country
Finland
OH BG3 is almost definitely better then the clunky first two.

Anyhow that article (the first one anyways, the second basically says nothing) basically just confirms what I said if anything. WotC came up with "Baldurs Gate 3", Larian was "oh we'll do it" and presumably turned down originally. Its not really countering any idea that this wasn't WotC's pony (and their cashflow) that Larian happened to end up being the ones to execute.

The article also mentions specifically that they could never do the "triple A level married to this style" before either.

WotC has their metaphorical pony for this decade now though, so expect the shovelware to fly out to capitilize, just like it did in the mid 2000s, just like it did in the mid 90s, just like the books did off the back of The Legacy or the original Dragonlance sage. The odds that they'll help foot another bill are, based on historical precedence, kind of low. Larian might want to have another go, but whether they can pull it off solo remains a question.
From the second article:
Larian actually originally pitched for Baldur's Gate 3 back when Divinity: Original Sin 1 was in development, but Dungeons & Dragons owner Wizards of the Coast thought the Belgium studio too green, too inexperienced, Vincke said. Funny to hear that now, given the enormous success of the Original Sin series - and evidently Wizards soon cottoned on to what Larian could do. "During DOS2, they reached out to us and said, 'Do you still want to do it?'" Vincke said, to which the obvious answer was: "Yes - of course."
From the first:

Now, you told me once, a few years ago, that you actually pitched Baldur's Gate 3 to Wizards of the Coast in 2014, around the time DOS1 finished. We talked a bit about this before but what kind of pitch was it - was it an informal conversation, was it a formal email?
It was an informal conversation. It was literally, "Hey guys, we should be doing this. This is DOS1. What do you think?"

[And they said:] "Oh, ah, nice to meet you."

But they remembered. They remembered because when they then pitched it back to me, several years later, it was a carbon copy of what we had talked about.
Larian pitched BG3 to WOTC and then later WOTC came back with the same pitch.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

Ag3ma

Elite Member
Jan 4, 2023
2,574
2,209
118
You can make like a 20 hour RPG if you don't have the funding or capital, you don't need to make something as big as BG3. You can make a Disco Elysium.
No, you can't just make a Disco Elysium, otherwise everyone would do it. It's incredibly hard to make a game that good.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

Ag3ma

Elite Member
Jan 4, 2023
2,574
2,209
118
I feel like I'm in a weird space with this game. In so much that I have zero interest in it even though in theory it should be everything I want in a party based fantasy RPG. Very strange feeling to have.
It's not weird.

In certain key ways it's sort of ordinary, even dull. In terms of mechanics - the ways you can interact with things, etc. - it's pretty much the peak of computer gaming in that genre. But even in mechanics, it's mostly the same old sorts of fights, the same old sorts of puzzles, the same old "be good / neutral / evil" dialogue choices, etc. Mostly, in narrative and characterisation it's a very average and unsophisticated fantasy adventure. I don't get much joy from experiencing the story, and in my view it only gets worse the further in you get.

I've just encountered a giant brain. It is, seriously, a giant human-shaped brain that's crucial to the plot, plus some cosmetic magical flash. A little part of me died inside.
 
Jun 11, 2023
3,040
2,227
118
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Selling shares is how companies normally get money. Larian doesn't have like EA or Ubisoft or Bethesda infusing them with money to make a game. Nor did they have WOTC infusing them with money because of the DnD license (as some dev said and Larian said "what funding?"), Larian had to pay for the license.
Yes, Larian or whoever sells shares to investors like Tencent for a stake of ownership in exchange for their capital that helps fund them. That’s how investing works. It’s why CDPR went public, but as we are all aware it has its potential drawbacks. You don’t need to have a big third party publisher in your corner, but it does provide more stability.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

Phoenixmgs

The Muse of Fate
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
9,704
832
118
w/ M'Kraan Crystal
Gender
Male
No, you can't just make a Disco Elysium, otherwise everyone would do it. It's incredibly hard to make a game that good.
Yes, hard but not costly to make. Good art isn't easy. How many studios are actually interested in making an RPG without combat?


Yes, Larian or whoever sells shares to investors like Tencent for a stake of ownership in exchange for their capital that helps fund them. That’s how investing works. It’s why CDPR went public, but as we are all aware it has its potential drawbacks. You don’t need to have a big third party publisher in your corner, but it does provide more stability.
Yeah, Larian didn't get funding outside the normal means of a company. CDPR got funding from the government.
 

Dreiko

Elite Member
Legacy
May 1, 2020
2,956
1,011
118
CT
Country
usa
Gender
male, pronouns: your majesty/my lord/daddy
Kinda late here but I was busy yesterday.


Anyways, I find this article confused or disingenuous. They totally forget to mention that the initiating tweet went on to gasslight people by pretending that the raised standard would be applied to indie games. It wouldn't. To imply that it would is a lie and manipulative. It bakes in an excuse for lazy devs. Instead of treating the game as an ideal to strive for to whatever capacity you are equipped, it paints it as an impossibility straight out of the gate.


The things people want are the long dev times, the lack of microtransactions and the love and care being put in over profit. Not the 400 person team, popular IP and tons of funding letting them voice 2 tv series worth of dialogue.

But the tweet treats this fact as if it is not there and goes on to dispute something nobody was saying to generate a climate of gamers being unreasonable. Is it that absurd to ask exactly why one would do that if not on the behest of AAA studios who by all accounts should be putting out similar content? Or are we to believe the tweeter is so delusional as to believe a good segment of the community would expect his 5 man team to put out BG-tier content?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Phoenixmgs