Ukraine

[PsychedelicDiamond]

Alexei Navalny, the most prominent opposition figure in Russia, has been imprisoned in a forced-labour camp in Russia since 2021 (after a failed assassination attempt by the FSB in 2020).

Now, he has gone missing during transfer to another forced-labour camp, and authorities refuse to identify his location. His lawyers have been refused access to him since 6th December.

This is the atmosphere in which elections are shortly to be run, and expected to be taken seriously. Are we likely to ever hear of him again?

If you look into Navalny he's just another nationalist psycho anyway, just one who happens to be competing with Putin. Putin's one evil ************ but even if he died, his succesor would just be some other butcher. Whether he'd be named Medwedew or Navalny or something else.

 

[Silvanus]

If you look into Navalny he's just another nationalist psycho anyway, just one who happens to be competing with Putin. Putin's one evil ************ but even if he died, his succesor would just be some other butcher. Whether he'd be named Medwedew or Navalny or something else.

He's got a lot of rancid nationalist shit in his past, but he remains firmly far from Putin and Medvedev in that regard. He opposed aggressive expansionism into Crimea and Donbas; he has apologised for anti-immigrant statements and hostility to Georgia. Obviously an apology doesn't make this right. But it's unthinkable that Putin would even conceive of apologising or changing tune.

He's a supporter of BLM, Same-sex marriage etc, at a time Putin is carrying out ethnic cleansing and violent repression of LGBT people. He's quite some distance from the utter christofascism of United Russia. There's not much comparison.

 

[Silvanus]

Potentially the largest-scale missile attack on Ukraine from Russia since the start of the war occurred overnight: approximately 110 missiles (+ Iranian kamikaze drones). Striking civilian areas (including a maternity ward) in cities including Kyiv, Dnipro and Odessa.

Two probable reasons for the Russian escalation: a symbolic response to Ukraine shifting the celebration of Christmas to 25 December (from the Orthodox date in January), and a perception that Western support is waning, with right-wing parties in Hungary, the US and elsewhere wanting to halt assistance.

Alexei Navalny has been located in a remote Arctic forced-labour camp. So he's not dead, at least.

 

[Hades]

If you look into Navalny he's just another nationalist psycho anyway, just one who happens to be competing with Putin. Putin's one evil ************ but even if he died, his succesor would just be some other butcher. Whether he'd be named Medwedew or Navalny or something else.

Statements like this or about Navalny's alleged lack of popular support are revealing. Because those would imply Putin tried to murder him not because he's a threat or doesn't agree with him, but because the very concept of an opposition member is enough to justify the murder or kidnapping of a person in Putin's eyes.

 

[hanselthecaretaker2]

 

[Silvanus]

Statements like this or about Navalny's alleged lack of popular support are revealing. Because those would imply Putin tried to murder him not because he's a threat or doesn't agree with him, but because the very concept of an opposition member is enough to justify the murder or kidnapping of a person in Putin's eyes.

Well, popular support is a difficult thing to gauge. But Navalny had sparked protests before, and is a veteran of anti-corruption campaigning, so there's reason enough for the incarceration/attempted murder.

Plus, even if someone isn't personally a (current) threat, there's the reasoning that stamping them out will deter others or prevent that threat from growing in future.

 

[Gergar12]

The problem with this war isn't with the Americans. It's with the Europeans, and in particular the countries of Poland, France, Germany, Spain, the UK, and Italy. They have systemically defunded their militaries, and in particular, the Germans have destroyed their military capabilities compared to the Cold War. You guys let Putin run roughshod over you. Where is EU armor in western, and eastern Ukraine, where are the Eurofighter Typhoons, EU F-35s, and French Rafales protecting Ukrainian airspace? Oh yeah in War Thunder forums you guys love to talk about the greatness of the Leopard 2 Tank, the Leclerc Tank, and all mightily Challenger 2. Well, the one time you are needed it's well you see Russia has nukes. France has nukes too you idiots, and so does the British despite Corbyn's meekness. I doubt most Russian ICBMS and half of their bombs even work due to bad maintenance.



Guyana, Kuwait, and Armenia aren't in NATO either, and the US told the dictators wanting to invade to piss off or face a counterbalancing force. Or they just bombed the invaders. If Venezuela invaded Mexico on China's orders, the Mexican army asked for help. Every single combat aircraft in the US would be headed towards Carcas. Americans aren't warmongers we are serious about protecting our national security, unlike the EU, and over half of NATO. Poland literally couldn't even protect Ukrainian truckers despite having the second-biggest military in Europe. The French still have delusions about having to have an empire in Africa for fuck sake when their backyard is being attacked. The Germans have black and white thinking believing every single military action they do is bad.



I would respect a Europe that didn’t fight with the US in Afghanistan based on reasonable analysis that it won’t work, and wouldn’t fight for the US in Iraq based on analysis about the Shia-Sunni divide. Then formed an EU army and crushed the Russian forces with US supplies. Why? Because it's your fucking continent. Why don’t you fight for your people in Europe, aren’t you all Europeans? The Americans would fight for America, the Chinese would fight for China, and the Russians for Russians, The Europeans are arguing about regulating tech companies, and there are actual academics that will argue that Europe rules the world based on their obnoxious regulations.



There are illegal migrants in the US being split on by the US-born natives who would die for this country (U.S.) if China or Russia invaded Seattle not because they are brainwashed, but because they want to protect their home. Protect your fucking home Europeans. Stop letting the left-wing rabble-rousers on the internet funded by Wagner, and Chinese trolls tell you what to do. You are better than that.



And I know what’s going to happen next. Some guy or girl from the UK, or Ireland, or Europe in general. Will go point by fucking point on how I am a Neo-Con (I am not), how I suffer from US propaganda (I don’t watch TV news), how empires are bad(Self-defense is not bad), how Europeans suffer from colonial guilt(As if the US doesn’t), etc. And come up with pure cope and excuses on why they shouldn’t boot Russian tanks from Ukraine.



I mean you guys call me a chicken hawk. Which may or may not be true. But if China invaded San Francisco or Canada or someplace in Mexico. I will grab an AR-15, a car full of medical supplies, and head to my nearest recruiting center, if they are full, I google the surrounding area, and I do insider attacks on the PLA. You guys are cowards of the highest order. Blatant cowardice that will not be rewarded in the future. If we survive climate change and we will, future generations will see the current EU + UK and its self-indulged citizens as the softest, most cowardly, and blatant. They will be the example to AVOID.



Ignore Putin's threats and fight for the Ukrainians for fuck sake.



So why can’t/didn’t the US defend Ukraine? The answer is simple, we are stretched too long. Ukraine is not in the US backyards but it’s YOUR backyard. The US has to divide its attention between Russia, North Korea China, Iran, and Venezuela. If the US sends half, its troops to Ukraine and half its air force China will invade Taiwan. If the EU builds up its forces from 2014 to 2022. And helped Ukraine fend off Russian aggression no one would care.



And it’s funny. What did Europe gain from dropping Ukraine to the wolves? Did it gain an enormous GDP, a vibrant tech sector, and a large economy? No. They stayed the same in tech, and let the Americans pounce by beating everyone including the EU with ChatGPT 4, Google Bard, and others.



You people ought to be ashamed of your selfish governments, and yourselves.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Well, the one time you are needed it's well you see Russia has nukes. France has nukes too you idiots, and so does the British despite Corbyn's meekness. I doubt most Russian ICBMS and half of their bombs even work due to bad maintenance.

So? If even half of their nuclear weapons work, that means they have nuclear weapons.

You do not, categorically do not, want one nuclear armed nation going to war with another. For all the US's warmongering it never did that. Why didn't the US invade China over Tibet, or Russia over Afghanistan? Or, for that matter, why didn't Russia or China attack the US during one of it's many wars? Because that would be unbelievably stupid. Ukraine is a nice, safe (from the PoV of not being in Ukraine) proxy war.

Also, in particular, this point:

Why don’t you fight for your people in Europe, aren’t you all Europeans?

Europeans live on the same continent as other Europeans, yes. Beyond that...the UK had a referendum on not being European.

For that matter, why aren't you going to Mexico to fight the drug cartels there? Aren't you all North American? Extend that to the Americas in general and there's loads of places in South America that you aren't fighting over, in much the same way as Europeans aren't fighting over Ukraine.

Hell, the US is a lot closer to Russia than the UK is. Why aren't you, both you personally and your nation, fighting against Russia? (EDIT: Not to the extent of sending half it's ground forces, if worried about China invading Taiwan, but to some extent)

(Oh, and the US, or at least its government or industry are warmongers, and you certainly do appear to be suffering from American propaganda. Not watching TV doesn't make you immune to that.)

 

[Gergar12]

So? If even half of their nuclear weapons work, that means they have nuclear weapons.

You do not, categorically do not, want one nuclear armed nation going to war with another. For all the US's warmongering it never did that. Why didn't the US invade China over Tibet, or Russia over Afghanistan? Or, for that matter, why didn't Russia or China attack the US during one of it's many wars? Because that would be unbelievably stupid. Ukraine is a nice, safe (from the PoV of not being in Ukraine) proxy war.

Also, in particular, this point:



Europeans live on the same continent as other Europeans, yes. Beyond that...the UK had a referendum on not being European.

For that matter, why aren't you going to Mexico to fight the drug cartels there? Aren't you all North American? Extend that to the Americas in general and there's loads of places in South America that you aren't fighting over, in much the same way as Europeans aren't fighting over Ukraine.

Hell, the US is a lot closer to Russia than the UK is. Why aren't you, both you personally and your nation, fighting against Russia? (EDIT: Not to the extent of sending half it's ground forces, if worried about China invading Taiwan, but to some extent)

(Oh, and the US, or at least its government or industry are warmongers, and you certainly do appear to be suffering from American propaganda. Not watching TV doesn't make you immune to that.)

Well, one the US, UK, French Nuclear warheads, ABM and etc. > Russian ones, and China.

"For that matter, why aren't you going to Mexico to fight the drug cartels there? Aren't you all North American? Extend that to the Americas in general and there's loads of places in South America that you aren't fighting over, in much the same way as Europeans aren't fighting over Ukraine."

Because the Cartels are an internal matter of Mexico, and Mexico doesn't want us to fight them even if Half of America wants drone strikes, and a third of Mexico wants an intervention. Ukraine wants the EU there. I also can't name a single South American country invading a country right now.

Why didn't the US invade China over Tibet? Ask Truman and Ike. And besides that, the US won the Cold War, and It's investing weapons in India to fight China for Tibet which is in it's backyard and where they get their water. Again Cope.

(Oh, and the US, or at least its government or industry are warmongers, and you certainly do appear to be suffering from American propaganda. Not watching TV doesn't make you immune to that.)

-Freedom isn't free. If the US disarmed, and the US populace did the same there wouldn't be world peace, there would be tinpot dictators fighting it out... with free countries.

 

[Bedinsis]

I mean you guys call me a chicken hawk. Which may or may not be true. But if China invaded San Francisco or Canada or someplace in Mexico. I will grab an AR-15, a car full of medical supplies, and head to my nearest recruiting center, if they are full, I google the surrounding area, and I do insider attacks on the PLA. You guys are cowards of the highest order. Blatant cowardice that will not be rewarded in the future.

When I was called for conscription a medical condition prevented me from serving.

 

[Gergar12]

When I was called for conscription a medical condition prevented me from serving.

Same for me but most European armies are sitting idle while Ukrainians die. If Columbians start dying from Chinese and or Russians do you think the US joint chiefs would do nothing.

As for that obviously having a debilitating conditions is not your fault. I am perfectly fit for example but because I take some medication for a disability they won’t let me join the military unless the US has a general draft and gets it medical logistics in order.

Merkel, Macron and the EU political leaders are cowards. With their EU Air Forces plus us supplies plus their tanks plus the Ukrainian military this conflict could have ended months ago.

Plus I can’t do anything I don’t speak Ukrainian and the FBI would hate me if I joined because they think all adventurers type people are rabble rousers. They hate people for joining with the Kurds and discourage US Ukrainian volunteers.

I generally don’t fault the EU populace that want to help Ukraine more forcefully but their leaders are cowards. They have blood on their hands.

 

[bluegate]

The problem with this war isn't with the Americans. It's with the Europeans, and in particular the countries of Poland, France, Germany, Spain, the UK, and Italy. They have systemically defunded their militaries, and in particular, the Germans have destroyed their military capabilities compared to the Cold War. You guys let Putin run roughshod over you. Where is EU armor in western, and eastern Ukraine, where are the Eurofighter Typhoons, EU F-35s, and French Rafales protecting Ukrainian airspace? Oh yeah in War Thunder forums you guys love to talk about the greatness of the Leopard 2 Tank, the Leclerc Tank, and all mightily Challenger 2. Well, the one time you are needed it's well you see Russia has nukes. France has nukes too you idiots, and so does the British despite Corbyn's meekness. I doubt most Russian ICBMS and half of their bombs even work due to bad maintenance.



Guyana, Kuwait, and Armenia aren't in NATO either, and the US told the dictators wanting to invade to piss off or face a counterbalancing force. Or they just bombed the invaders. If Venezuela invaded Mexico on China's orders, the Mexican army asked for help. Every single combat aircraft in the US would be headed towards Carcas. Americans aren't warmongers we are serious about protecting our national security, unlike the EU, and over half of NATO. Poland literally couldn't even protect Ukrainian truckers despite having the second-biggest military in Europe. The French still have delusions about having to have an empire in Africa for fuck sake when their backyard is being attacked. The Germans have black and white thinking believing every single military action they do is bad.



I would respect a Europe that didn’t fight with the US in Afghanistan based on reasonable analysis that it won’t work, and wouldn’t fight for the US in Iraq based on analysis about the Shia-Sunni divide. Then formed an EU army and crushed the Russian forces with US supplies. Why? Because it's your fucking continent. Why don’t you fight for your people in Europe, aren’t you all Europeans? The Americans would fight for America, the Chinese would fight for China, and the Russians for Russians, The Europeans are arguing about regulating tech companies, and there are actual academics that will argue that Europe rules the world based on their obnoxious regulations.



There are illegal migrants in the US being split on by the US-born natives who would die for this country (U.S.) if China or Russia invaded Seattle not because they are brainwashed, but because they want to protect their home. Protect your fucking home Europeans. Stop letting the left-wing rabble-rousers on the internet funded by Wagner, and Chinese trolls tell you what to do. You are better than that.



And I know what’s going to happen next. Some guy or girl from the UK, or Ireland, or Europe in general. Will go point by fucking point on how I am a Neo-Con (I am not), how I suffer from US propaganda (I don’t watch TV news), how empires are bad(Self-defense is not bad), how Europeans suffer from colonial guilt(As if the US doesn’t), etc. And come up with pure cope and excuses on why they shouldn’t boot Russian tanks from Ukraine.



I mean you guys call me a chicken hawk. Which may or may not be true. But if China invaded San Francisco or Canada or someplace in Mexico. I will grab an AR-15, a car full of medical supplies, and head to my nearest recruiting center, if they are full, I google the surrounding area, and I do insider attacks on the PLA. You guys are cowards of the highest order. Blatant cowardice that will not be rewarded in the future. If we survive climate change and we will, future generations will see the current EU + UK and its self-indulged citizens as the softest, most cowardly, and blatant. They will be the example to AVOID.



Ignore Putin's threats and fight for the Ukrainians for fuck sake.



So why can’t/didn’t the US defend Ukraine? The answer is simple, we are stretched too long. Ukraine is not in the US backyards but it’s YOUR backyard. The US has to divide its attention between Russia, North Korea China, Iran, and Venezuela. If the US sends half, its troops to Ukraine and half its air force China will invade Taiwan. If the EU builds up its forces from 2014 to 2022. And helped Ukraine fend off Russian aggression no one would care.



And it’s funny. What did Europe gain from dropping Ukraine to the wolves? Did it gain an enormous GDP, a vibrant tech sector, and a large economy? No. They stayed the same in tech, and let the Americans pounce by beating everyone including the EU with ChatGPT 4, Google Bard, and others.



You people ought to be ashamed of your selfish governments, and yourselves.

What suddenly prompted this post then?

 

[Gergar12]

What suddenly prompted this post then?

The fact an M2 Bradley piloted by Ukraine made decades ago can disable a modern T-90M tank and then destroyed it with a drone means if Europe wanted to they could have ended this with THEIR advanced military and lowered the death count. The fact a MiG-29 can fight Russian Su-35 means Euro fighters, Rafale, Gripens, and F-35s could do it even more. They could have been supplied by the US.

 

[Ag3ma]

You people ought to be ashamed of your selfish governments, and yourselves.

There is no difference between Europe and the USA here. It is facile for Europeans to blame the US or vice versa: they are all in exactly the same boat.

From a legal/political standpoint, Ukraine is not a formal ally of any. They are not bound by treaty or other formal obligation to defend it. For the USA, UK or any EU country to enter the war openly is thus for them to declare war on Russia and decisively escalate the conflict. None of these countries want to go to war with Russia and escalate, because the ultimate and unbroachable principle is not to trigger a catastrophic nuclear exchange.

America takes much of the load in military support because the USA has funded its military more heavily, and so has vastly more military stock to donate; it has an economy ~4 times larger than the largest European economy so is the largest single donor by dollar value. You need to be aware, however, that in total aid commitments to Ukraine by % GDP, the USA isn't even in the top 10. Europe is pulling its weight.

So the back the fuck down. If you do support Ukraine, you would do well to consider the issue more calmly and with better information rather than fling inflammatory accusations at your own country's allies.

 

[Terminal Blue]

The problem with this war isn't with the Americans. It's with the Europeans, and in particular the countries of Poland, France, Germany, Spain, the UK, and Italy. They have systemically defunded their militaries, and in particular, the Germans have destroyed their military capabilities compared to the Cold War.

That's wildly simplistic.

France has one of the most powerful and efficiently funded military forces on the planet, and because France's relationship to NATO is kind of nebulous it's entirely capable of operating independently. France has permanent military bases in Africa and has involved itself in numerous African conflicts without any need for NATO support. France also has a permanent at-sea nuclear deterrent, which is incredibly expensive.

The US has systematically defunded its military since the cold war too. You know why, because noone wants to ruin their economy preparing for a world war that isn't going to happen.

Oh yeah in War Thunder forums you guys love to talk about the greatness of the Leopard 2 Tank, the Leclerc Tank, and all mightily Challenger 2.

There are vastly, vastly more German tanks in Ukraine (Leopard 1s and Leopard 2s) than any other western-made tank including those supplied by the US. Both have significantly over-performed relative to the Soviet models they are replacing.

I don't think anyone thinks the Challenger 2 is a particularly good machine, particularly on the War Thunder forums (a game made by a Russian company that funds Russian insurgents in Ukraine and is infamous for Russian bias). It's a relatively old tank that can't fire modern ammunition because of its rifled gun, hence why it's due to be retired and given an upgrade package.

The thing is, Challenger 2 is fine. It's good enough that it hasn't needed to be replaced so far because Russia can't actually produce anything that is better outside of video games. In fact, some reports from Ukraine (where Challenger 2s are serving) have suggested that the rifled gun is actually advantageous against older Russian tank models, which are now very common in Ukraine.

Well, the one time you are needed it's well you see Russia has nukes. France has nukes too you idiots, and so does the British despite Corbyn's meekness. I doubt most Russian ICBMS and half of their bombs even work due to bad maintenance.

Do you feel like taking a chance on that?

The UK and France have a strategic nuclear deterrent. Do you understand that word?

Because it's your fucking continent.

No, it's not.

"We" don't own the continent. "We" are a bunch of independent countries with distinct political and geopolitical aims but some overarching mutual interests. That is what Ukraine is fighting to remain. Noone gives a shit about what would best suit US interests because European countries are not extensions of US foreign policy.

Your country only exists because of an Anglo-French rivalry that goes back to the hundred years war. Sweden and Denmark have fought more wars against each other than any other extant nation on Earth. Our histories and national identities are long, complex and hard-won. That's part of what being European means, and noone is going to give that up because it would be more convenient for someone hundreds of miles away who wants to play nuclear Russian roulette with other people's lives.

 

[Gergar12]

There is no difference between Europe and the USA here. It is facile for Europeans to blame the US or vice versa: they are all in exactly the same boat.

From a legal/political standpoint, Ukraine is not a formal ally of any. They are not bound by treaty or other formal obligation to defend it. For the USA, UK or any EU country to enter the war openly is thus for them to declare war on Russia and decisively escalate the conflict. None of these countries want to go to war with Russia and escalate, because the ultimate and unbroachable principle is not to trigger a catastrophic nuclear exchange.

America takes much of the load in military support because the USA has funded its military more heavily, and so has vastly more military stock to donate; it has an economy ~4 times larger than the largest European economy so is the largest single donor by dollar value. You need to be aware, however, that in total aid commitments to Ukraine by % GDP, the USA isn't even in the top 10. Europe is pulling its weight.

So the back the fuck down. If you do support Ukraine, you would do well to consider the issue more calmly and with better information rather than fling inflammatory accusations at your own country's allies.

Kuwait was not an ally, and neither was Albania or Bosnia. As for a nuclear exchange, Putin is bluffing, his nukes don't work, and his submarines and many of his tanks are rusting. Some of his Su-57s are sitting out in the cold. the EU total economy is comparable to both the Chinese and the American economy individually. As for Europe, their financial aid is useful for morale but where are they going to buy the bullets, shells, bombs, missiles, and drones needed to end the war? China and Russia won't sell to them, Turkey may sell but their hardware other than some drones is subpar, South Africa has a crime problem, and the US is at full capability and is funneling as many arms to Taiwan and itself as possible.

Meanwhile, EU armies and EU air forces are sitting there idle because many of their citizens are self-indulgent cowards, and their leaders are short-sighted and selfish, letting much of their militaries rot, and letting the far left and far right dominate their political process. Stop being cowards, grab your armies, get your G36 or HK-416 or other bullpup rifles, and beat back the fascist Russians.

The Americans have their hands full with multiple crises around the world. They have the Houthis, the two Hezbollah, Iran, Syria, China, North Korea, Ethiopia, and Venezuela to deal with. There is a reason Blinken and Jake Sullivan are running around across the world starting to put out fires started by tinpot dictatorships and their yesmen armies.

If an M2 Bradley can disable a T-90 tank by blocking up its optics a CV-90, EBRC Jaguar, FV 510 Warrior, etc. with their much bigger cannons should have little to no problem doing the same. Their air forces which are sitting in hangers doing nothing could be put to much better use destroying the Russian VDV, and VVS. Yet they sit there and complain endlessly about American tech companies doing X, Y, and Z. My advice is to ignore it and focus on the threat at hand.

And stop coping.

 

[Gordon_4]

Kuwait was not an ally, and neither was Albania or Bosnia. As for a nuclear exchange, Putin is bluffing, his nukes don't work, and his submarines and many of his tanks are rusting. Some of his Su-57s are sitting out in the cold. the EU total economy is comparable to both the Chinese and the American economy individually. As for Europe, their financial aid is useful for morale but where are they going to buy the bullets, shells, bombs, missiles, and drones needed to end the war? China and Russia won't sell to them, Turkey may sell but their hardware other than some drones is subpar, South Africa has a crime problem, and the US is at full capability and is funneling as many arms to Taiwan and itself as possible.

Meanwhile, EU armies and EU air forces are sitting there idle because many of their citizens are self-indulgent cowards, and their leaders are short-sighted and selfish, letting much of their militaries rot, and letting the far left and far right dominate their political process. Stop being cowards, grab your armies, get your G36 or HK-416 or other bullpup rifles, and beat back the fascist Russians.

The Americans have their hands full with multiple crises around the world. They have the Houthis, the two Hezbollah, Iran, Syria, China, North Korea, Ethiopia, and Venezuela to deal with. There is a reason Blinken and Jake Sullivan are running around across the world starting to put out fires started by tinpot dictatorships and their yesmen armies.

If an M2 Bradley can disable a T-90 tank by blocking up its optics a CV-90, EBRC Jaguar, FV 510 Warrior, etc. with their much bigger cannons should have little to no problem doing the same. Their air forces which are sitting in hangers doing nothing could be put to much better use destroying the Russian VDV, and VVS. Yet they sit there and complain endlessly about American tech companies doing X, Y, and Z. My advice is to ignore it and focus on the threat at hand.

And stop coping.

For someone who seems to favour Realpolitik, you know fuck all about it.

 

[Gergar12]

For someone who seems to favour Realpolitik, you know fuck all about it.

Actually, I stopped being that when the teacher to my teacher mear-shimmer shilled for the Russians.

 

[Bedinsis]

What's mear-shimmer?

 

[Gergar12]

What's mear-shimmer?

Home - John Mearsheimer

I am the R. Wendell Harrison Distinguished Service Professor in the Political Science Department at the University of Chicago, where I have taught since 1982.

www.mearsheimer.com