Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

[Thaluikhain]

On the one hand, deliberately targeting civilians, essentially at random, is obviously horrific. I'm less certain on the practice of capturing civilians in order to do prisoner exchanges with your civilians the other side has captured.

But the other realistic option seems to be them sitting around waiting for the international community to maybe consider thinking about possibly doing something about them being starved and murdered to massively greater amounts for decades. I can hardly demand of the Palestinians that they do that.

 

[ralfy]

Also, the same Israel has been funded by the war machine for decades, with the latter seeing things very differently:

 

[Seanchaidh]

Tell me. How exactly did I overstate their responsibility? I didn't deny they targeted combatants as well. I didn't deny that IDF 'friendly fire' racked up the civilian body count. I said they primarily targeted civilians-- who were the majority of mortalities by a wide margin, something absolutely nobody denies.

Nobody, huh?

The Palestinian group Hamas has said there were “faults” in the October 7 attack it led on southern Israel, but claimed its fighters only targeted Israeli soldiers and people carrying weapons.

 

[tstorm823]

You know, in the fog of war, it's very hard to tell exactly what is true and was is propaganda. Maybe there were Palestinians unrelated to Hamas that took this opportunity to hurt civilians outside of the planned attack. Or maybe they really were focused specifically on military targets, and the reports of attacks against civilians are misleading. It is really hard to pin down what is a deliberate war crime and who is to blame with so much incentive for disinformation.

As long as Hamas didn't do anything ridiculous like paraglide troops into a music festival to murder and kidnap unarmed civilians from around the world and then post videos of themselves paragliding and take full credit for the attack... So long as they didn't do anything like that, who's to say?

 

[Silvanus]

Nobody, huh?

The Palestinian group Hamas has said there were “faults” in the October 7 attack it led on southern Israel, but claimed its fighters only targeted Israeli soldiers and people carrying weapons.

Honestly, i didn't expect even them to take a line so blatantly lacking credibility. So I was indeed wrong; substitute "absolutely nobody" for "nobody outside of a press release from the perpetrator".

 

[Seanchaidh]

Honestly, i didn't expect even them to take a line so blatantly lacking credibility. So I was indeed wrong; substitute "absolutely nobody" for "nobody outside of a press release from the perpetrator".

based on what are you deciding the 'credibility'?

 

[Seanchaidh]

 

[Silvanus]

based on what are you deciding the 'credibility'?

If claims find zero corroboration (and outright contradiction) from anyone except the perpetrator, they tend to fail to make the grade. Especially if the claimant is a theocratic far-right org funded by their own supposed enemies, with a long history of lying and religious ultraviolence.

You know, just how we don't tend to accept the IDF's untenable claims that they only focus on military targets. We know that's bullshit because we have piles of independent reports.

 

[Seanchaidh]

If claims find zero corroboration (and outright contradiction) from anyone except the perpetrator, they tend to fail to make the grade. Especially if the claimant is a theocratic far-right org funded by their own supposed enemies, with a long history of lying and religious ultraviolence.

You know, just how we don't tend to accept the IDF's untenable claims that they only focus on military targets. We know that's bullshit because we have piles of independent reports.

ok, what claim, exactly, are you speaking of?

I said they primarily targeted civilians-- who were the majority of mortalities by a wide margin, something absolutely nobody denies.

is it the first of those? the second? both together?

 

[Silvanus]

ok, what claim, exactly, are you speaking of?

is it the first of those? the second? both together?

The first-- it's very difficult to claim military justification for paradropping into a music festival, but I suppose that's what they're going with.

The second-- the fact that the death toll overwhelmingly leans civilian-- was a supporting circumstance for that. And it's not under serious dispute-- more partygoers died at that festival alone than members of the security forces in the entirety of the attack, IIRC.

 

[Seanchaidh]

The first-- it's very difficult to claim military justification for paradropping into a music festival, but I suppose that's what they're going with.

a music festival that was right next to a concentration camp.

 

[Silvanus]

a music festival that was right next to a concentration camp.

Proximity makes something/someone a valid military target regardless of who/what they are? Its strange-- you keep employing lines of reasoning you've previously (rightly) condemned amongst other forces.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Proximity makes something/someone a valid military target regardless of who/what they are?

I don't think Hamas knew there was going to be anything happening there. But it was right on the other side of the big wall that keeps Gazans caged.

 

[XsjadoBlayde]

 

[crimson5pheonix]

ZiOnIsM iSn'T a ThInG iN bRiTiSh PoLiTiCs

 

[Seanchaidh]

ZiOnIsM iSn'T a ThInG iN bRiTiSh PoLiTiCs

no, you see, they're just doing this because the British public likes genocide so much

 

[Silvanus]

I don't think Hamas knew there was going to be anything happening there. But it was right on the other side of the big wall that keeps Gazans caged.

Yeah, it's so easy to accidentally kill 360 civilians. I'm always accidentally strapping myself into a paraglider and firing into crowded fields, accidentally. Bound to happen. By accident.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Yeah, it's so easy to accidentally kill 360 civilians. I'm always accidentally strapping myself into a paraglider and firing into crowded fields, accidentally. Bound to happen. By accident.

it's pretty easy to accidentally kill 360 civilians if you are credited for the other side's friendly fire, yes

Israel admits to "immense" amount of "friendly fire" on 7 October

Army's rejection of an investigation appears to be a cover up.

electronicintifada.net

How Israeli forces trapped and killed ravers at the Nova Festival

New evidence points to Israeli security forces, not Hamas, for causing the most fatalities at the music festival - civilian deaths that were then utilized to justify Tel Aviv's Gaza genocide.

thecradle.co

 

[Seanchaidh]

 

[Seanchaidh]

This doesn't seem like it is in the spirit of abiding by the ICJ ruling.