Trump assassination attempt

[Silvanus]

Politics created this monster, you can't have any experience with you that came before the politics. Trans theory is trying to catagorize people into different tribes based on otherwise normal human feelings. It is the invention of interest groups. The politics is inherent regardless of which party is saying what.

No, that's just your effort to reduce people with whom you have zero interaction or understanding to nonexistence. The feelings and senses of identity came first-- often long before the individuals had any concept of politics. Frameworks of understanding, descriptive terms, practitioners of care, and the surrounding social politics arose in response to them.

You simply can't comprehend that people have different life experiences to you.

There's no such thing as "trans people", there's no such thing as "queer people", there's no such thing as "gay people", gender and sexuality are descriptions of things people do [...]

"I can't understand something, so it doesn't exist". There's nothing here but arrogance and denial-- no substance. I'll continue to believe my own life experience over your prejudiced insistence that my identity doesn't exist, thanks.

 

[Silvanus]

OK so the last trans person I knew personally went the following.

Straight girl (dated my best friend for years before breaking up)
Went to University
2nd year of university after a failed relationship there decided she was a lesbian
End of university they'd decided they were actually a a guy trapped in a girls body and were Trans
2 years on fully transitioned to being a man, complete with doing some stereotypical "I'm a man" things like growing a moustache and riding and buying a motorbike.
1 year later stopped identifying as a man and shaved off the moustache now identifying as a non binary individual.
1 year later apparently they're very messed up and now wish they never went away from being a woman.

And this was some-one who wasn't the most feminine but wasn't full on tomboy either. If I had to take a guess it's the crowd she fell in with at Uni and her own insecurities mixing as funnily enough 5 of her friends group (of7 including her at uni) all came out as lesbian in the same year then all decided the year after they were actually trans.

OK, cool story. Statistical fact remains that the vast majority do not regret transitioning.

Nah dudes got a point Dr Kenneth J. Zucker research supported the idea of a cautious approach and part of his downfall (he was a former leading researcher who helped pioneer much of gender affirming care) was suggesting people were rushing to conclusions and medicating first rather than asking questions and was worried people were trying to act under the belief of their actions were good and right and rushing straight ahead based on those beliefs rather than stopping and doing the actually good thing for the patient in the long run and taking a little more time to check over things.

Uhrm, no, Kenneth Zucker did not merely encourage "caution". Caution is good. Kenneth Zucker approached all instances from a starting point of preventing the child being trans.

Oh and before we get the "No-one has been jumping the gun" reply.

Of course some medical practitioners "jump the gun", as they do with literally any procedure or care process. This is why gender affirmation is best done with safeguards, check-ins, potentially counselling or therapist involvement. Something that people like Zucker (and tstorm) oppose, as they pursue straightforward denial.

Oh and didn't Labour recently block the use of puberty blockers for the foreseeable future?

Uhrm, yes, so? Labour's position on this is shite. And puberty blockers are largely reversible-- more so than, for example, puberty itself. Forcing someone unsure to go through puberty (by denying access to blockers) is the less cautious approach, because it forces the kid to undergo the more permanent physical change of puberty.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

You're delusional. You just don't live in reality.

The reality you want us to live in is the reality that wanted to put Alan Turing in prison for being gay. You know, the guy primarily responsible for breaking the Enigma code and helping us win World War II? Yeah, because he was gay, England wanted to put him in jail. Instead he accepted chemical castration.

FUCK YOUR REALITY. It's ruled by a God you made in your image, cruel and hateful.

OK so the last trans person I knew personally went the following.

Straight girl (dated my best friend for years before breaking up)
Went to University
2nd year of university after a failed relationship there decided she was a lesbian
End of university they'd decided they were actually a a guy trapped in a girls body and were Trans
2 years on fully transitioned to being a man, complete with doing some stereotypical "I'm a man" things like growing a moustache and riding and buying a motorbike.
1 year later stopped identifying as a man and shaved off the moustache now identifying as a non binary individual.
1 year later apparently they're very messed up and now wish they never went away from being a woman.

And this was some-one who wasn't the most feminine but wasn't full on tomboy either. If I had to take a guess it's the crowd she fell in with at Uni and her own insecurities mixing as funnily enough 5 of her friends group (of7 including her at uni) all came out as lesbian in the same year then all decided the year after they were actually trans.

I know a person who regretted getting married, so people should be prevented from getting married.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

OK, cool story. Statistical fact remains that the vast majority do not regret transitioning.

So why is the suicide rate so damn high then?

Uhrm, no, Kenneth Zucker did not merely encourage "caution". Caution is good. Kenneth Zucker approached all instances from a starting point of preventing the child being trans.

No that's what his critics claim. He said to approach each case as the patient non necessarily being Trans and to explore other potential options first.

More a case of



until it proves to be Lupus.

Of course some medical practitioners "jump the gun", as they do with literally any procedure or care process. This is why gender affirmation is best done with safeguards, check-ins, potentially counselling or therapist involvement. Something that people like Zucker (and tstorm) oppose, as they pursue straightforward denial.

And it's also why people are concerned because as was seen with Zucker a media narrative was spun up that because he wouldn't diagnose some-one as trans immediately or very quickly then he was anti-trans. There's a push to speed up diagnosis of something that by it's nature takes longer to diagnose and a push to go after those who aren't quick enough doing so as being bigots.

Dr Zucker was literally a leading researcher who helped pioneer a lot of Gender Affirming care methods and surgical techniques. It's hilarious the idea he was in denial, he just pushed for surgery only when sure, not as a precautionary measure or because you felt it the best course to reduce delay etc.

Uhrm, yes, so? Labour's position on this is shite. And puberty blockers are largely reversible-- more so than, for example, puberty itself. Forcing someone unsure to go through puberty (by denying access to blockers) is the less cautious approach, because it forces the kid to undergo the more permanent physical change of puberty.

We also don't know the long term impact of blockers or other such potential issues arising from their use. Also isn't Gender affirming surgery also a pretty permanent physical change?

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

I know a person who regretted getting married, so people should be prevented from getting married.

So what permanent damage was done to them?

 

[thebobmaster]

So why is the suicide rate so damn high then?

Oh, gee, I dunno. Maybe because the fact that coming out as trans results in people like you saying they aren't real, or don't really feel that way, at best, and at worst end up with them getting disowned by family, shunned by former friends, or even worse by homophobes? Or maybe constantly hearing that they don't deserve the same treatment as cisgender people. Nah, that can't possibly affect someone's mental health.

 

[Hades]

The reality you want us to live in is the reality that wanted to put Alan Turing in prison for being gay. You know, the guy primarily responsible for breaking the Enigma code and helping us win World War II? Yeah, because he was gay, England wanted to put him in jail. Instead he accepted chemical castration.

Didn’t they also bully him into suicideafterwards?

 

[gorfias]

 

[Piscian]

View attachment 11516

 

[tippy2k2]

I picked up his book Commander in Cheat. Really good book that goes into detail on how basically everything from his play to his deals to his courses are essentially all complete bullshit and/or scummy.

But it's the kind of book where the people who need to read it are the people who won't and the people who do read it already start with the "Trump is a scumbag" mindset so it's just preaching to the choir.

I'd recommend it if you're curious but it's likely not saying anything people don't already know but it's nice to see the receipts he brings to the table

 

[Silvanus]

So why is the suicide rate so damn high then?

Why is the suicide rate higher for a minority that experiences high levels of discrimination, both personal and legal (and often violent)? Think about it.

FYI, the suicide rate significantly decreases for those who go through gender affirming care, including transition.

No that's what his critics claim. He said to approach each case as the patient non necessarily being Trans and to explore other potential options first.

Uhrm, its what he said about his own approach: that kids should be actively discouraged from identifying other than their birth sex.

((NB, supporting Zucker should also put you at odds with tstorm; tstorm has reiterated numerous times that individual behaviours shouldn't be considered "for boys" or "for girls", I.e. certain jobs and toys and colours, and that kids/people should feel free to interact with whatever, regardless of sex. Zucker did the opposite, insisting children must play with the things most closely associated with their birth sex)).

We also don't know the long term impact of blockers or other such potential issues arising from their use. Also isn't Gender affirming surgery also a pretty permanent physical change?

And do you actually have evidence for these issues? Is it your stance that all new or new-ish medicines should simply not be prescribed, because we can't know about long-term effects until... they're in use for a long time? That's not how the medical field operates. If it was, we'd have no drugs.

Surgery is pretty permanent, yes. But you brought up puberty blockers. That's what we were talking about.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Why is the suicide rate higher for a minority that experiences high levels of discrimination, both personal and legal (and often violent)? Think about it.

I thought that was black people according to progressives, both the personal and legal violence hell also historical and societal too?

FYI, the suicide rate significantly decreases for those who go through gender affirming care, including transition.

Source?

Uhrm, its what he said about his own approach: that kids should be actively discouraged from identifying other than their birth sex.

((NB, supporting Zucker should also put you at odds with tstorm; tstorm has reiterated numerous times that individual behaviours shouldn't be considered "for boys" or "for girls", I.e. certain jobs and toys and colours, and that kids/people should feel free to interact with whatever, regardless of sex. Zucker did the opposite, insisting children must play with the things most closely associated with their birth sex)).

No no, Tstorm is doing a very good job echoing currently progressive rhetoric back at you. I'm guessing if you asked him his actual view it wouldn't match this lol.

Also in Dr Zuckers own research he determines not playing with the toys etc normally associated with ones own birth gender to be non gender association not Trans and a sign of a number of things. Generally in his own research he tried to look at if there were any aspects of said Gender the individual did actually identify with too not just insist they identify with all of it.

And do you actually have evidence for these issues? Is it your stance that all new or new-ish medicines should simply not be prescribed, because we can't know about long-term effects until... they're in use for a long time? That's not how the medical field operates. If it was, we'd have no drugs.

Surgery is pretty permanent, yes. But you brought up puberty blockers. That's what we were talking about.

well the published in 2021 paper shows generally no change or deterioration of the mental health of those on blockers

Children on puberty blockers saw mental health change - new analysis

New analysis finds most children had a significant change in their mental health while on the drugs.

www.bbc.co.uk

.

Also evidence that there is a push down a certain pathway

Tavistock puberty blocker study published after nine years

The study by the Tavistock gender clinic shows all but one child was also later given cross-sex hormones.

www.bbc.co.uk

"The evidence shows that the vast majority of children who take [puberty blockers] move on to take cross-sex hormones," and that these are part of "one clinical pathway"

 

[thebobmaster]

I thought that was black people according to progressives, both the personal and legal violence hell also historical and societal too?

I've broken my arm, but it didn't hurt. After all, there are paraplegics, so a broken arm doesn't compare.

 

[Kwak]

I thought it was Kyle Gass that made the comments. I saw a headline that Kyle had been kicked from the label that their band was under as well. Black cancelled the rest of the tour dates.

I think anyone celebrating this, AND/OR, lamenting that the shooter missed should be ashamed of themselves. Like Trump, hate him, whatever, he doesn't deserve death by anything outside of a KFC related incident. Your politics should no longer come into play here, because this was attempted murder period and everyone should condemn that regardless.

People really need to stop treating political belief's like a battleground, in which people who dont share your views are therefore enemies and should be put down. It's disgusting. And a bunch of you in here going "Ahh too bad" "Dang he missed", You should be fucking disgusted with yourselves. Trump is a stupid asshole but he's doesn't deserve death. Fucking sick.

Destiny's comments are also bullshit and shows how far left or right ideologies completely shatter your basic human empathies. He is the perfect example of someone who goes so far to one side that they can't image their side doing anything wrong and will happily condone fucking murder so long as it's against someone who disagrees with him. How fucked of a mindset do you need to have?

A politician who runs on the the platform of releasing murder machines against certain sections of the population that the other sections are in a frenzied bloodlust against absolutely should be taken out. "But it's just politics!" Yeah., get fucked.

 

[Silvanus]

I thought that was black people according to progressives, both the personal and legal violence hell also historical and societal too?

What? Do you believe only one persecuted minority can exist, or that all persecuted minorities must experience exactly the same effects? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

Source?

Two have already been provided in this thread, one of which includes a meta-analysis referring to numerous others.

View attachment 11519

For starters, have a look here.

"Zucker, who has worked with this population for close to 30 years, has a very specific method for treating these children. Whenever Zucker encounters a child younger than 10 with gender identity disorder, he tries to make the child comfortable with the sex he or she was born with.

So, to treat Bradley, Zucker explained to Carol that she and her husband would have to radically change their parenting. Bradley would no longer be allowed to spend time with girls. He would no longer be allowed to play with girlish toys or pretend that he was a female character."

There's also his commentary here. And his initial response to CAMH provides further comments.

No no, Tstorm is doing a very good job echoing currently progressive rhetoric back at you. I'm guessing if you asked him his actual view it wouldn't match this lol.

I have. He's discussed it at length.

Well the published in 2021 paper shows generally no change or deterioration of the mental health of those on blockers

Children on puberty blockers saw mental health change - new analysis

New analysis finds most children had a significant change in their mental health while on the drugs.

www.bbc.co.uk

.

Also evidence that there is a push down a certain pathway

Tavistock puberty blocker study published after nine years

The study by the Tavistock gender clinic shows all but one child was also later given cross-sex hormones.

www.bbc.co.uk

That's not evidence of a "push". That just says people first took blockers, then later took hormones. If anything, that just shows the blockers were generally taken by the people for whom they would be beneficial.

 

[tstorm823]

The feelings and senses of identity came first--... my identity doesn't exist, thanks.

You don't understand the word identity, we've been through this multiple times. Identity is not internal, it is a measure of comparison to others. Anything that exists solely as feelings inside, that cannot be tied to others, isn't an identity. It's only an identity when you start thinking "this is what makes me different from other people", and that's where you are wrong about everything you think you know.

The reality you want us to live in is the reality that wanted to put Alan Turing in prison for being gay.

Your sentence is wrong in so many ways, I feel like you're trying to be wrong on purpose.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Actual acceptance would drive both things to zero. If you could just accept people as people, there is no such thing as gender identity.

I doubt that, it's just not how the human brain works. Our brains like patterns and placing things into categories. Gender is one of those categories. That's part of why people get so enraged about gender issues that don't actually affect them, because it's challenging the categories their brains have created.

So I don't think that acceptance would bring around an end to gender identity, it would just make it more common for people to move between different gender identities without it being a huge deal.

 

[Silvanus]

You don't understand the word identity, we've been through this multiple times. Identity is not internal, it is a measure of comparison to others. Anything that exists solely as feelings inside, that cannot be tied to others, isn't an identity. It's only an identity when you start thinking "this is what makes me different from other people", and that's where you are wrong about everything you think you know.

We have indeed been over it many times, and you have yet to make a convincing argument. All we end up with is blind insistence that billions of people are thinking about their sense of self wrong.

But regardless, this doesn't even address the core point of the sentence to which you responded. The feelings came first, often before the individual has any concept of politics. Care procedures, descriptive frameworks, terminology etc arose in response to them. If you want to argue that the 6 year old telling their parents they're a boy/girl is only doing so because of politics, then that'd be moronic.

 

[tstorm823]

So I don't think that acceptance would bring around an end to gender identity, it would just make it more common for people to move between different gender identities without it being a huge deal.

If it wasn't a huge deal, nobody would do it. Most people would see something as small as a name change as too much effort for a distinction without a difference. People put in the very real effort they do only because it is a huge deal socially.

I doubt that, it's just not how the human brain works. Our brains like patterns and placing things into categories.

And this trick of human nature is responsible for either every or nearly every genocide ever to occur. It would be quite excellent to stop trying to categorize people this way.

"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."- Galatians 3:28

But regardless, this doesn't even address the core point of the sentence to which you responded. The feelings came first, often before the individual has any concept of politics. Care procedures, descriptive frameworks, terminology etc arose in response to them. If you want to argue that the 6 year old telling their parents they're a boy/girl is only doing so because of politics, then that'd be moronic.

The 6 year old saying that has a concept of what boy and girl mean. Those concepts are not magically conjured from nowhere, they are learned from society. That child is trying to match their internal feelings to the concepts being presented to them by society. No internal feelings spontaneously generate the words boy and girl in a child's mind. If a 6-year-old boy says they are a girl, it is because they've been presented a wrong conception of what a girl is. There are no internal feelings that make a person a girl, there are billions of girls on the planet and they all have their own internal feelings, there is no universal commonality among them with which to distinguish from boys. A boy who thinks they feel like a girl has been taught that girls feel a certain way, and that's just garbage in-garbage out coming from the adults who try to categorize people into interest groups like mentioned above.

 

[Silvanus]

The 6 year old saying that has a concept of what boy and girl mean. Those concepts are not magically conjured from nowhere, they are learned from society. That child is trying to match their internal feelings to the concepts being presented to them by society. No internal feelings spontaneously generate the words boy and girl in a child's mind. If a 6-year-old boy says they are a girl, it is because they've been presented a wrong conception of what a girl is. There are no internal feelings that make a person a girl, there are billions of girls on the planet and they all have their own internal feelings, there is no universal commonality among them with which to distinguish from boys. A boy who thinks they feel like a girl has been taught that girls feel a certain way, and that's just garbage in-garbage out coming from the adults who try to categorize people into interest groups like mentioned above.

In short: so it's not politics that this all comes from, as you claimed before. It's society's conception of gender.

Which just leaves us with a simple "gender-critical" premise, combined with your arrogant and baseless assumptions about what those kids have been taught.

Odd, then, that those who tend to believe boys & girls can act however they want, and that behaviours/jobs/colours/etc aren't gendered... are also more likely to identify differently to their birth sex, and more likely to be affirmational, etc. The queer community generally roundly rejects stereotypical gender roles. And those who believe boys must fit into traditionally boyish roles, and girls into traditionally girlish roles-- tend to be the conservative & religious sectors that oppose transition.