Funny events in anti-woke world

Trunkage

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Italian woman who competes in Olympic boxing competition complains that her Algerian opponent hit her the hardest she's ever been hit in her entire life. Which seems to me to be one of the likelier outcomes of competing at boxing at the Olympics. Anyway, now a bunch of blowhards are falsely calling the Algerian woman a man.
Unfortunately for these blowhards said a woman is deinfed by what biological sex is, and that very definition makes this boxer a woman. Its funnier as Algeria does not belief that people can transition, so she can't have been born a man

Of course, this doesn't matter because it's always about shifting goal posts so they can pretened they won rather than dealing with science

They never once tried to understand anatomy. It would be funny if this wasn't now the norm. This is not the first assigned at birth woman who had been blamed for being a man in this Olympics. It won't be the last
 

Trunkage

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It's kind of bizarre.

Basically, the report is that she has male chromosmes, but one of various abnormalitues that reduces sensitivity to male hormones. Such individuals therefore physically develop as females although usually with some reduced female characteristics (e.g. breast size, ovarian development), although it can vary a lot by individual. What is the case for nearly all of them is that they produce more testosterone than the average woman. Obviously, testosterone as a drug is a banned substance due to unfair advantage in muscle development. Women's sport has therefore got a massive problem it's not managed to resolve about what to do with women who naturally produce a lot more testosterone than usual.

I'm not terribly impressed with the way it's been handled. The Algerian is mid-career, having been boxing for over five years. I can't believe it's only now someone decided she punches "too hard", as her Italian opponent who retired did. The fact this is being conflated with transgenderism is even worse. This woman has not changed gender. She was defined as female at birth, has lived as a girl/woman, has the outward physical characteristics of a woman.
I would point out that the Italian opponent immediately paraphrased what she said once the right wing media crapped their pants but the damage was already done. She, at least, as responded much better than the media in general

It also shows everyone how recent this nonsense is because she won events at the last Olympics. It's all fake drama

I hope this actually informs people about DNA. But I doubt it
 

dreng3

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Basically, the report is that she has male chromosmes, but one of various abnormalitues that reduces sensitivity to male hormones.
And even that should be considered dubious as the only source is a newspaper claiming that someone said it without that very same someone corroborating it.
 

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Italian woman who competes in Olympic boxing competition complains that her Algerian opponent hit her the hardest she's ever been hit in her entire life. Which seems to me to be one of the likelier outcomes of competing at boxing at the Olympics. Anyway, now a bunch of blowhards are falsely calling the Algerian woman a man.
This is what happens when trans hate spreads; it spreads to ALL women. Just as when hate gay spread, it spread to ALL men.
 

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It's kind of bizarre.

Basically, the report is that she has male chromosmes, but one of various abnormalitues that reduces sensitivity to male hormones. Such individuals therefore physically develop as females although usually with some reduced female characteristics (e.g. breast size, ovarian development), although it can vary a lot by individual. What is the case for nearly all of them is that they produce more testosterone than the average woman. Obviously, testosterone as a drug is a banned substance due to unfair advantage in muscle development. Women's sport has therefore got a massive problem it's not managed to resolve about what to do with women who naturally produce a lot more testosterone than usual.
I'm not sure why the "testosterone problem" is actually a problem. Pretty much all Olympic athletes are genetically freaks in some way that makes them especially good at a particular skill. No one shit their pants and said that Usain Bolt was cheating by being born with a predisposition to build more fast twitch muscle fibers. Michael Phelps has abnormally long arms compared to his height, and he's double jointed, both of which help with swimming, but neither of these are considered an issue. As long as the testosterone is produced in the body naturally why is this advantage considered an issue when other natural advantages aren't? The Olympics aren't about what's normal, otherwise they would be competitions between the most average people a country has to offer rather than the most extraordinary.

I'm not terribly impressed with the way it's been handled. The Algerian is mid-career, having been boxing for over five years. I can't believe it's only now someone decided she punches "too hard", as her Italian opponent who retired did. The fact this is being conflated with transgenderism is even worse. This woman has not changed gender. She was defined as female at birth, has lived as a girl/woman, has the outward physical characteristics of a woman.
It's also not like Khelif is undefeated or anything. Other women have been able to beat her. In 2020 she only made it to the quarter-finals of the Olympics and was beaten by Kellie Harrington. Obviously Khelif is very good, which is why she's an Olympic athlete in the first place, but it's not like she's in some class above other female Olympic boxers.
 
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Satinavian

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Unfortunately for these blowhards said a woman is deinfed by what biological sex is, and that very definition makes this boxer a woman.
No, that would be called intersex.

And whenever you sort people according to sex into two categories, you get problems with intersex people. And as there are so many different kinds of intersex, you can't even find a good solution tha fits for everyone and need to look for individual answers based on the reasons of why you group people into categories per sex.

Nothing particularly new here.


And it has nothing to do with trans or gender.
 

Chimpzy

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I'm sure this will prove an effective deterrent and solve the problem forever.
 
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Seanchaidh

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fwiw, Carini has since said she wishes to apologize to Khelif for igniting the controversy.

No, that would be called intersex.
that is something that has been said of Khelif but I don't think is confirmed with any reliability.
 

Eacaraxe

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No, that would be called intersex.

[...]

And it has nothing to do with trans or gender.
This is why I believe the one solution that would fix the "non-binary spectrum people in sports" problem is precisely the one no involved party will implement for entirely political reasons: eliminate gendered classification altogether, and limit classification to height, weight, and other relevant, quantifiable, physiological markers that exist irrespective of gender. While eliminating some of the favoritism towards extreme ends of those classes within the same sport.

Neither side of this ridiculous bullshit culture war front wants to expose the shortcomings of their own positions. The "pro" side doesn't want to concede ultimately differences in bone, muscle, and fat structure/distribution that develop in puberty -- leading coincidentally to correlations in weight and height between genders -- do impact athletic performance in sports. The "anti" side doesn't want to concede those differences aren't a decisive factor in athletic performance.

I want to see both put their money where their mouths are.
 

Satinavian

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This is why I believe the one solution that would fix the "non-binary spectrum people in sports" problem is precisely the one no involved party will implement for entirely political reasons: eliminate gendered classification altogether, and limit classification to height, weight, and other relevant, quantifiable, physiological markers that exist irrespective of gender. While eliminating some of the favoritism towards extreme ends of those classes within the same sport.
But height and weight isn't all. Even at the same height and similar weight women tend to have less muscle and a harder time to build it up. So if you only do height and weight, women would generally pushed out of many professional sports (not all of them, in some cases it is less relevant). Which in turn would demotivate girls when they know they will never be competitive.

Sure, we can measure muscle mass as well for classification but then we again run into the trouble that women have a harder time to get the same numbers as similarly sized men. Which means women would only compete with men of significant less training/expericnce, not with any top athletes who are not also women.

It is not really solvable. You can only replace one problem with another. The current method does have its problems with intersex people, but those are kinda rare. You will continue to have the occasional intersex person competing extremely successfull in women sports ( because she is physically more woman than man ) but no sport will ever be dominated by intersex people on the professional level.


The only reason intersex people in sports currently get attention is because some idiots want to conflate it with trans issues. Some ask "When women witth naturally unusual hormon levels are allowed to compete, why not let women with artificially unusual hormon levels compete ?" But that basically opens the door to free for all doping and to athletes ruining their health to get titles in their youth. I mean, we still have state sponsored doping of whole athlete cadres. But we should avoid anything that might drive us back to the 70s and 80s.
 

Eacaraxe

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But height and weight isn't all. Even at the same height and similar weight women tend to have less muscle and a harder time to build it up. So if you only do height and weight, women would generally pushed out of many professional sports (not all of them, in some cases it is less relevant). Which in turn would demotivate girls when they know they will never be competitive.
What you're saying is kind of what I'm getting at.

It's not just a matter of muscle mass, either; it's bone density and skeletal structure, elasticity of connective tissue leading to flexibility, fat distribution, balance and kinesthetic sense, et cetera. It's the same reason women's gymnastics and skating get more attention than men's: women are more flexible with better balance due to lower centres of gravity and (statistically insignificant in other sports) greater kinesthetic perception, leading to those sports being more competitive and impressive to spectate for women than men.

Hence why I say both sides of the debate ought to put their money where their mouths are. If distinctions between biological sexes don't impact performance as much as the "pro" camp asserts, there won't be gendered difference in outcome. If those distinctions are the only ones that matter as the "anti" camp asserts, men should dominate nearly every sport. This is why I call this ridiculous culture war bullshit: both sides know they're completely full of shit, lack the conviction in their own arguments to put their beliefs to the test, and are weaponizing trans athletes (to their detriment) to push partisan narrative.

The issue isn't reconcilable, because those physical traits develop during adolescence as a consequence of androgens/estrogens and are largely non-mutable after through gender-affirming hormone therapy. Some may correct, leading to a normalization in performance for some sports after an arbitrary time on HRT, but in sports in which height and bodily structure influence performance that normalizing effect only goes so far.

But honestly, I do believe classifying sports by those markers would lead to a fairer landscape than we now have, without bringing gender politics into the equation. And, it would force a certain degree of evolution among those sports as athletes and coaches explore, discover, and learn to counter strategies for circumventing differences in biological sex.

The only reason intersex people in sports currently get attention is because some idiots want to conflate it with trans issues.
We don't even have to bring non-binary and trans athletes into the question to make that point. Remember when the French threw a shitfit over Lance Armstrong's "doping" which led to the man being publicly humiliated, and practically his entire career stripped from record...then it turned out other than the HRT he had to have due to cancer, all that "doping" he did was actually universal, and the French were the world's leading authority and by far the guiltiest?

We don't even have to discuss those who had testicular cancer, to make the point either. Remember when Michael Phelps was accused of this shit, particularly over the cryotherapy, hyperbaric oxygen therapy, and oxygenated blood injections, near-exclusively by parties who engaged in not just the same practices, but to far higher degrees?

Right now, it's just that trans and intersex athletes are stuck in the middle of an international shit-slinging contest over whose "performance enhancement" methods are legit and whose aren't. I'll believe it's actually about trans and intersex athletes when the French bring a full team of 'em to the Olympics, and complain about other countries' trans and intersex athletes.
 

Silvanus

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What you're saying is kind of what I'm getting at.

It's not just a matter of muscle mass, either; it's bone density and skeletal structure, elasticity of connective tissue leading to flexibility, fat distribution, balance and kinesthetic sense, et cetera. It's the same reason women's gymnastics and skating get more attention than men's: women are more flexible with better balance due to lower centres of gravity and (statistically insignificant in other sports) greater kinesthetic perception, leading to those sports being more competitive and impressive to spectate for women than men.

Hence why I say both sides of the debate ought to put their money where their mouths are. If distinctions between biological sexes don't impact performance as much as the "pro" camp asserts, there won't be gendered difference in outcome. If those distinctions are the only ones that matter as the "anti" camp asserts, men should dominate nearly every sport. This is why I call this ridiculous culture war bullshit: both sides know they're completely full of shit, lack the conviction in their own arguments to put their beliefs to the test, and are weaponizing trans athletes (to their detriment) to push partisan narrative.
You could create a stratified 'class' system based on all those disparate physical characteristics. It would be fiendishly complicated, involving lots of different weighting for the different characteristics and would differ for almost every sport, but it would probably end up being fairer than the simplistic sex system.

But i absolutely guarantee that exactly the same people complaining about the presence of transwomen (or in this case, non-trans women with possible other conditions) would be complaining exactly as loudly. Those that predicate it on the idea that a "man" fighting a woman is inherently cruel (I.e., Logan Paul) would have the same complaint. Those that are simply prejudiced towards trans people would still be so, and would find their outlet.

You can try to "both sides" this if you want, but that's not gonna work when one camp is motivated primarily by their intense personal dislike for a specific group of people, and the rest is window-dressing.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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The issue isn't reconcilable, because those physical traits develop during adolescence as a consequence of androgens/estrogens and are largely non-mutable after through gender-affirming hormone therapy. Some may correct, leading to a normalization in performance for some sports after an arbitrary time on HRT, but in sports in which height and bodily structure influence performance that normalizing effect only goes so far.

But honestly, I do believe classifying sports by those markers would lead to a fairer landscape than we now have, without bringing gender politics into the equation. And, it would force a certain degree of evolution among those sports as athletes and coaches explore, discover, and learn to counter strategies for circumventing differences in biological sex.
Until we get super-future sci-fi body scanners, the amount of radiation we'd be subjecting athletes to to get these numbers would be impractical and dangerous, especially for kids and young adults
 

Schadrach

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No, that would be called intersex.

And whenever you sort people according to sex into two categories, you get problems with intersex people. And as there are so many different kinds of intersex, you can't even find a good solution tha fits for everyone and need to look for individual answers based on the reasons of why you group people into categories per sex.

Nothing particularly new here.


And it has nothing to do with trans or gender.
I mean if you desperately wanted to, you could just create a "trans and intersex" division of events/sports/competitions for basically the same reason there's a women's division - to create a protected space where they can compete within their own group without whatever problems are seen as coming with having to compete with the "other".

I'm sure this will prove an effective deterrent and solve the problem forever.
It would probably reduce reoffending at least in combination with therapy. Chemical castration has been found to do so with sex offenders in general, dunno about specifically with pedophiles. Amazed it doesn't count as cruel and unusual punishment.