TLOU2 Review Thread

[Casual Shinji]

Which is fucking weird considering this is one of the main playable characters in Yakuza 4:

Spoiler: An ugly middle aged dude

View attachment 497

And he's one of the most popular characters and appears in 4 games.

There's not a lot of games like Yakuza in Japan though, apart from all its sequels and spin-offs ofcourse. Very few games from Japan show middle-aged people playing prominent hero roles. Even when they do they're told to be much younger than they actually look, like Auron from FF10 who's 35 eventhough he looks 50. And few games that really deal with the underbelly of society. Even Yakuza itself, or the spin-off Judge Eyes felt forced to remove an actor who in real life was caught with drugs from their crime game. By the way, where was the gamer outcry over that? Weird.

There's nothing warped about beauty being desirable. There's nothing warped about middle age gruff dudes being harder to market. That's why when you have a race there's hot chicks in tight leather waving the flag and not middle aged office workers. The only warped thing here is pretending it's abnormal to have a healthy appreciation for beauty and to prefer things which contain some measure of it. The Yakuza guy's point basically is that the game is good enough to not even need any marketing to do well, which is just a normal observation and only ignorance as to the workings of marketing (especially in Japan where you get varying degrees of lewd shop-based preorder fanart for a bunch of games) would see it as something noteworthy.

It's warped when something not traditionally beautiful is seen as less worthy. That's not a healthy appriciation.

Nagoshi also said "At your typical (Japanese) company, if you showed concept art for a character like him, I don't think it would be approved." Which is probably in reference to his quote "To be honest, we (Japan) were beaten". Which means beauty standards dictate what games get made, which is warped.

But yeah either way, a thing existing, and it being the core thing a group does, are vastly different things. Nothing of what you mention is censorship either, so that's irrelevant to what I was responding to. It's more like authenticity and wanting the characters to remain original. I completely understand where the people who complained about Tifa are coming from (no idea about the Aeris bit) since her theme has always been having a huge chest, and that actually has nothing to do with my preferences, as I tend to be a flat is justice connoisseur myself. You can understand and agree with something even if it isn't your personal taste, simply because it's right or what it's supposed to be. The people complaining about Tifa aren't the caricature you are making them out to be, they just want final fantasy to be final fantasy as much as possible. There's no shortage of big chested girls in other games and shows and what have you. Clearly we won't have a shortage if Tifa is shrunk some.

Then why aren't Aerith's bangs ridiculously large and sharp enough to stab a boar? That's not authentic to the original design.

 

[Dreiko]

There's not a lot of games like Yakuza in Japan though, apart from all its sequels and spin-offs ofcourse. Very few games from Japan show middle-aged people playing prominent hero roles. Even when they do they're told to be much younger than they actually look, like Auron from FF10 who's 35 eventhough he looks 50. And few games that really deal with the underbelly of society. Even Yakuza itself, or the spin-off Judge Eyes felt forced to remove an actor who in real life was caught with drugs from their crime game. By the way, where was the gamer outcry over that? Weird.
It's warped when something not traditionally beautiful is seen as less worthy. That's not a healthy appriciation.

Nagoshi also said "At your typical (Japanese) company, if you showed concept art for a character like him, I don't think it would be approved." Which is probably in reference to his quote "To be honest, we (Japan) were beaten". Which means beauty standards dictate what games get made, which is warped.

Then why aren't Aerith's bangs ridiculously large and sharp enough to stab a boar? That's not authentic to the original design.

You're conflating two different issues, how you treat the unconventional thing isn't to do with whether or not appreciating the conventional thing is warped. You can both appreciate beauty and at the same time be open-minded to variety. Their issue is that they're too traditionalist with what flies and what doesn't, which is a long-known issue at larger Japanese companies, not that they value beauty too much. "If it ain't broke don't fix it" is a very, very real philosophy with a lot of companies that have been around a while.

And I dunno what about Aeris' bangs is supposed to be sharp. They look like classic anime hairstyle art from the 90s, the pointy ends are there to draw your eye to the hair and make the character's outline easily recognizable.



Looks normal to me lol.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Nice sarcasm, but gamers were having a fit over Tifa's boobs not being as large as they were on the more chibi and cartoonish representation of her. Also, Aerth's face which apparently looked too adult and not cute enough till they changed it. This type of shit totally exists and don't pretend it doesn't.

And it's good you mentioned Ghost of Tsushima, because the creator of Yakuza commented on its succes in Japan and how it surprised him since the main protagonist was middle-aged and ugly. Which shows how warped some of the parameters among gamers are. A little bit more warped in Japan, but there you go.
Which female designs look androgynous though, apart maybe from Abby? Unless we're equating what the majority of men find bangable with femininity, which would be a mistake.

And yeah, the game looks drab, but the women weren't specifically targeted to look especially drab. They just look like women in a drab setting, just like the men do.

And unless Druckmann said women in games should ONLY be presented in a non-sexual way I'd disagree, but if he meant the sexualization of women in games (and media in general) should really be dailed down, then yeah, he's totally right.

They toned down their physical assets. Take Dina for example, or Tess from the first game.


Here’s the speech


On one hand I get what he means, but for whatever reasons (perhaps a bit of guilt or shame on his own part for thinking misogynistically?) he’s wanting the pendulum to swing to the opposite extreme. There should be no shame in representing women as they are or thinking they’re somehow “sanitized” by downplaying what physically makes them female and feminine.

 

[Iron]

Girlfriend reviews had the best review imho

 

[Casual Shinji]

They toned down their physical assets. Take Dina for example, or Tess from the first game.

They didn't tone down anything. Dina's face model was a face model, not a full body scan, and with Tess that's her voice actor. The face model for Dina actually has wider shoulders in comparison to the rest of her body when compared to Dina's character model; something typically viewed as more masculine. You'd think if Naughty Dog was so set on making their female characters look not femine they'd pick up that trait for Dina as well. Or maybe this whole thing is just really silly.

On one hand I get what he means, but for whatever reasons (perhaps a bit of guilt or shame on his own part for thinking misogynistically?) he’s wanting the pendulum to swing to the opposite extreme. There should be no shame in representing women as they are or thinking they’re somehow “sanitized” by downplaying what physically makes them female and feminine.

And what makes any of the women from any Naughty Dog game feel physically downplayed in terms of them being female? Dina looks like a woman, Tess looks like a woman. I'm still not seeing what makes them in particular so drab and less feminine when compared to the male characters looking masculine. I didn't see Joel or Tommy showing off their hairy chests and biceps. I guess their physical traits were downplayed as well?

I mean, did people get this nitpicky over Angela and Heather in Silent Hill 2 and 3 ? One of the dudes at Team Silent even talked about how he wanted Maria to look realistic, so he gave her some stomach flab; I can't remember people getting this bent out of shape over this back then. I can only imagine how much shit a character like Vasquez from Aliens would get in current times.

 

[Gyrobot]

They toned down their physical assets. Take Dina for example, or Tess from the first game.


Here’s the speech


On one hand I get what he means, but for whatever reasons (perhaps a bit of guilt or shame on his own part for thinking misogynistically?) he’s wanting the pendulum to swing to the opposite extreme. There should be no shame in representing women as they are or thinking they’re somehow “sanitized” by downplaying what physically makes them female and feminine.

I love you linked to a chud gathering spot just to show how bitter and angry they are.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

They didn't tone down anything. Dina's face model was a face model, not a full body scan, and with Tess that's her voice actor. The face model for Dina actually has wider shoulders in comparison to the rest of her body when compared to Dina's character model; something typically viewed as more masculine. You'd think if Naughty Dog was so set on making their female characters look not femine they'd pick up that trait for Dina as well. Or maybe this whole thing is just really silly.
And what makes any of the women from any Naughty Dog game feel physically downplayed in terms of them being female? Dina looks like a woman, Tess looks like a woman. I'm still not seeing what makes them in particular so drab and less feminine when compared to the male characters looking masculine. I didn't see Joel or Tommy showing off their hairy chests and biceps. I guess their physical traits were downplayed as well?

I mean, did people get this nitpicky over Angela and Heather in Silent Hill 2 and 3 ? One of the dudes at Team Silent even talked about how he wanted Maria to look realistic, so he gave her some stomach flab; I can't remember people getting this bent out of shape over this back then. I can only imagine how much shit a character like Vasquez from Aliens would get in current times.

They never said anything about downplaying male character sex appeal, only the females. Not sure why that’s being compared, because with ND at least it was always about not accentuating or wanting to draw attention to female characters’ feminine attributes. Well, maybe except for Chloe. She’s probably still the sexiest female character in gaming imo. Probably taking major cues from Lara Croft even down to the accent, but still adds a flavor all her own.

 

[Casual Shinji]

They never said anything about downplaying male character sex appeal, only the females. Not sure why that’s being compared, because with ND at least it was always about not accentuating or wanting to draw attention to female characters’ feminine attributes. Well, maybe except for Chloe. She’s probably still the sexiest female character in gaming imo. Probably taking major cues from Lara Croft even down to the accent, but still adds a flavor all her own.

Probably because dudes' sex appeal in games isn't as rampant as that of girls. And in most Naughty Dog games the girls and the guys are pretty much given equel sex appeal. Striking a balance. I remember playing Uncharted 1 for the first time way back in 2007 and being slightly taken a back by how "not hot" Elena looked, because I was used to games making damn sure I knew how crazy hot women were. And all of a sudden here was just a regular attractive woman, not a drop dead, stone cold super model.

What Naughty Dog is toning down is the lurid quality in which the female form is presented in their games as compared to other games, bringing it to a similar level as the men. Although they're not unique in that area anymore, since thankfully a lot of games lately have been toning it down, like Horizon: Zero Dawn and Ghost of Tsushima.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Probably because dudes' sex appeal in games isn't as rampant as that of girls. And in most Naughty Dog games the girls and the guys are pretty much given equel sex appeal. Striking a balance. I remember playing Uncharted 1 for the first time way back in 2007 and being slightly taken a back by how "not hot" Elena looked, because I was used to games making damn sure I knew how crazy hot women were. And all of a sudden here was just a regular attractive woman, not a drop dead, stone cold super model.

What Naughty Dog is toning down is the lurid quality in which the female form is presented in their games as compared to other games, bringing it to a similar level as the men. Although they're not unique in that area anymore, since thankfully a lot of games lately have been toning it down, like Horizon: Zero Dawn and Ghost of Tsushima.

So every male character built like a super hero isnt highlighting the sexiness of the male form? What about the shirtless version of Ryu dubbed "Hot Ryu"?

There are countless shirtless men built like Greek Gods. All to highlight what a perfect man looks like.

You know why people dont bring it up?

Because most hardcore gamers are straight men. And there fore we dont give a fuck about seeing hot dudes. We like to see hot girls.

Sex fucking sells no matter how much some people wish it wouldnt. Sex will always sell and it will never stop.

I like how people dub the hot women in media is a bad body image for women because it hold them to impossible standards. Yet nobody says that superman give a bad body image for boys.

You see the fat dude about as often as you see the fat woman in games and in both cases those characters are usually evil or comic relief.

Fact of the matter is that the vast majority of people would rather watch hot characters do things then ugly people. Plain and simple.

However there are exceptions. If the story telling or the gameplay is good enough, you dont need your characters to be "hot" like the examples you made above.

But people dont like TLoU2. So they will complain about everything up to and including character design. It isnt a hard concept to understand.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

So every male character built like a super hero isnt highlighting the sexiness of the male form? What about the shirtless version of Ryu dubbed "Hot Ryu"?

There are countless shirtless men built like Greek Gods. All to highlight what a perfect man looks like.

You know why people dont bring it up?

Because most hardcore gamers are straight men. And there fore we dont give a fuck about seeing hot dudes. We like to see hot girls.

Sex fucking sells no matter how much some people wish it wouldnt. Sex will always sell and it will never stop.

I like how people dub the hot women in media is a bad body image for women because it hold them to impossible standards. Yet nobody says that superman give a bad body image for boys.

You see the fat dude about as often as you see the fat woman in games and in both cases those characters are usually evil or comic relief.

Fact of the matter is that the vast majority of people would rather watch hot characters do things then ugly people. Plain and simple.

However there are exceptions. If the story telling or the gameplay is good enough, you dont need your characters to be "hot" like the examples you made above.

But people dont like TLoU2. So they will complain about everything up to and including character design. It isnt a hard concept to understand.

I think a lot of people still like the game. Hell, on the whole I was more entertained by it on nearly all fronts (barring some horrid pacing issues and narrative structure) than the original for its time.

The issue is the vocal minority will always ***** the loudest like anything, and Metacritic is the primary soapbox for that. This is evident by the fact that actual user reviews are about as good as the original.

I’m trying to think about another actual good game from the past that has ever caused nearly as much of a stir...and I’m drawing a blank. The ironic thing is it’s over mostly dumb shit. It’s really not because of how Abby looks or that it doesn’t have hot chics with bangin bods either, since no one complained about the lack of them in the original.

 

[Casual Shinji]

So every male character built like a super hero isnt highlighting the sexiness of the male form? What about the shirtless version of Ryu dubbed "Hot Ryu"?

There are countless shirtless men built like Greek Gods. All to highlight what a perfect man looks like.

And in which videogames are these men presented as a sexual fantasy as opposed to a power fantasy? Very few probably as that would scare off the straight men. Point me to any chucky bulges and hot man asses.

You know why people dont bring it up?

Because most hardcore gamers are straight men. And there fore we dont give a fuck about seeing hot dudes. We like to see hot girls.

Sex fucking sells no matter how much some people wish it wouldnt. Sex will always sell and it will never stop.

Yeah, and that's kinda shitty. Something that bears addressing. Maybe even something that requires some change. You know, so that money doesn't dictate how women are viewed. And so that "hardcore gaming" can be a place that isn't just a boys club.

I like how people dub the hot women in media is a bad body image for women because it hold them to impossible standards. Yet nobody says that superman give a bad body image for boys.

That's because boys aren't raised to think looking hot/pretty/sexy will make them seem more worthy in the eyes of our society. Sex selling and all that, with hot women typically being used for that.

However there are exceptions. If the story telling or the gameplay is good enough, you dont need your characters to be "hot" like the examples you made above.

But people dont like TLoU2. So they will complain about everything up to and including character design. It isnt a hard concept to understand.

People were complaining about this shit before TLoU2 was even out, even before the leaks. Just like how people are bending over backward regarding Abby's physique, they were doing the same as to why Nadine shouldn't have been able to beat Nathan Drake in Uncharted 4. And people loved that game, but still though... that woman beat muh Drake. BOOOOOO!

And seriously, where are all the complaints about the male character designs in TLoU2?

 

[CriticalGaming]

And in which videogames are these men presented as a sexual fantasy as opposed to a power fantasy? Very few probably as that would scare off the straight men. Point me to any chucky bulges and hot man asses.

people view men's sexiness differently than the view women. The human body is the human body. Women have tits, men don't. But that doesn't stop people from admiring a muscly chest, and tight strong asses.

And if a hot muscly man is a power fantasy for boys, why isn't a hot feminine from a power fantasy for women? Why isn't Samus, Lara Croft, Bayonetta, power fantasy for women? Your argument is flimsy here.

Yeah, and that's kinda shitty. Something that bears addressing. Maybe even something that requires some change. You know, so that money doesn't dictate how women are viewed. And so that "hardcore gaming" can be a place that isn't just a boys club.

Why does it need to be addressed? SExuality is human. Sexual desire is human. What needs to be addressing? You are asking to address human nature.

How is gaming still a "boys club" as well? There are more women in gaming than ever before. More women playing, more women covering it in the media, hell more women MAKING them, how the fuck is it a boy's club? This is just another label that people throw around to making gaming demonized and that's fucked up.

If you wanna claim harassment, that's also unfair. People are shitty everywhere on the internet not just gaming. But no woman has EVER EEEEEEVVVVEEERRRRR been denied the right to buy and play a video game because she was a woman. There is no barrier to entry into gaming.

Studies have shown that men get just as much shit in online gaming as women do. It's called trash talk, don't like it, don't play online. Online games are live service shit anyway so this is no big loss. But the point is, being female doesn't automatically mean you get more targeted harassment than anyone else online.

That's because boys aren't raised to think looking hot/pretty/sexy will make them seem more worthy in the eyes of our society. Sex selling and all that, with hot women typically being used for that.

I mean no. Boys grow up being called weak, wimpy, nerdy, whatever else, if they aren't strong muscly sports stars. Men are woreshipped for their physical abilities all through out middle school and high school years. Men are taught that if youaren't strong you aren't shit. Explain to me how that's any better.

The struggle might be slightly different, but both genders have their struggles. It's part of the human condition and it's part of growing up. The problem is these radicalized people don't wanna grow up, they don't wanna deal with it, they want the world to change around them so they don't have to change themselves.

And seriously, where are all the complaints about the male character designs in TLoU2?

Well the simply answer is, what male characters? Name be one male character in the game that gets more then 5-10 minutes of screen time? The men are all shoved to the side and they aren't a focus. So there isn't anything to complain about really.

The focus is on women and only women in the game. The game is the struggles of women and only women. The men only serve as motivators for the women to do things. Which ironically is the treatment that feminists like Anita complain about for the typical female characters. Which to me only highlights the problems with the whole agrument.

You need drama for storytelling. Someone or something has to be the source of that drama, someone or something always has to be the motivation for the main characters to do things. Otherwise why would they push on? Owen is the reason Abby starts to break away from the WLF, Levi then becomes her reason to find the Fireflies and move on with her life. Joel is the reason Ellie does everything in the game that she does. Every character has to have motivations, and a family member or partner is the best motivation storytelling can use because that is the most relatable thing to real people.

We all have friends, family, and lovers, so by our very nature we can relate to the heroes call when they are responding to the need of one of those three things.

It's basic storytelling, and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[stroopwafel]

A guy lusting after attractive women is a sign you're healthy and normal but to me, since I'm no longer 12, it doesn't necessarily needs to be included in every piece of media. It needs to be context appropriate. I think TLOU2's female designs worked perfectly for the kind of story they wanted to tell. It's also clear the developers wanted to attract a larger female audience with this game, though I don't know if it's necessarily true that female players are repelled by attractive designs. More women are stabbing eachother's eyes out on instagram than playing videogames so jealousy about looks is a typical female thing that guys don't really have. But reality is women are looking more at attractive women than guys. Always comparing. Fact is, even for heterosexual women men just aren't that aesthetically pleasing. But still it would make absolutely no sense if Abby's female hulk design was swapped with some instagram hottie. But give it some ridiculous costume, saucer eyes and gravity defying boobs and it would totally work for a Final Fantasy. Different productions, different creative choices.

 

[CaitSeith]

Yes, women can be muscular, but to get as muscular as Abby pretty much requires steroids or a pretty extreme hormone imbalance.

 

[stroopwafel]

That's because boys aren't raised to think looking hot/pretty/sexy will make them seem more worthy in the eyes of our society. Sex selling and all that, with hot women typically being used for that.

Used? Bro, they make more in a day than you in an entire year. Some instagram hotties make tons of money just pouting their lips and advertising some garbage product. You really don't have to feel sorry for them.

''That's because boys aren't raised to think looking hot/pretty/sexy will make them seem more worthy in the eyes of our society.''

Nah, it has nothing do with that. What is the first thing that comes to mind with a guy who considers himself ''sensual''? And then picture a woman who says the same thing? The guy is probably a bit of a fairy.

edit: disregard my first sentence. I probably misread what you wrote there.

 

[Casual Shinji]

people view men's sexiness differently than the view women. The human body is the human body. Women have tits, men don't. But that doesn't stop people from admiring a muscly chest, and tight strong asses.

And if a hot muscly man is a power fantasy for boys, why isn't a hot feminine from a power fantasy for women? Why isn't Samus, Lara Croft, Bayonetta, power fantasy for women? Your argument is flimsy here.

Because one is specifically meant to look strong and imposing and the other is specifically meant to look sexy. Neither of which is bad on its own. But if it's default that men are always the strong, impossing characters, and women the sexy ones, then it is.

Why does it need to be addressed? SExuality is human. Sexual desire is human. What needs to be addressing? You are asking to address human nature.

No, I'm addressing the 'sex sells' argument. Sex is part of human nature, sex selling isn't, that's industry. And putting a dollar value on sex and primarily using women to get that money... that needs to be addressed, and that needs to change.

How is gaming still a "boys club" as well? There are more women in gaming than ever before. More women playing, more women covering it in the media, hell more women MAKING them, how the fuck is it a boy's club? This is just another label that people throw around to making gaming demonized and that's fucked up.

You're the one claiming "hardcore gaming" is mainly straight men, therefor sexy ladies are important in "hardcore gaming". That's how you create the image of a boys club. Gaming isn't as much a boys club as it used to be, and the focus on games not having sexy woman as a mandate is part of why.

Studies have shown that men get just as much shit in online gaming as women do. It's called trash talk, don't like it, don't play online. Online games are live service shit anyway so this is no big loss. But the point is, being female doesn't automatically mean you get more targeted harassment than anyone else online.

Yet I doubt those harressments are geared toward the gender of those men.

I mean no. Boys grow up being called weak, wimpy, nerdy, whatever else, if they aren't strong muscly sports stars. Men are woreshipped for their physical abilities all through out middle school and high school years. Men are taught that if youaren't strong you aren't shit. Explain to me how that's any better.

The struggle might be slightly different, but both genders have their struggles. It's part of the human condition and it's part of growing up. The problem is these radicalized people don't wanna grow up, they don't wanna deal with it, they want the world to change around them so they don't have to change themselves.

I never said it was better. It's bad. And it equally needs to be fought against.

Well the simply answer is, what male characters? Name be one male character in the game that gets more then 5-10 minutes of screen time? The men are all shoved to the side and they aren't a focus. So there isn't anything to complain about really.

The focus is on women and only women in the game. The game is the struggles of women and only women. The men only serve as motivators for the women to do things. Which ironically is the treatment that feminists like Anita complain about for the typical female characters. Which to me only highlights the problems with the whole agrument.

You need drama for storytelling. Someone or something has to be the source of that drama, someone or something always has to be the motivation for the main characters to do things. Otherwise why would they push on? Owen is the reason Abby starts to break away from the WLF, Levi then becomes her reason to find the Fireflies and move on with her life. Joel is the reason Ellie does everything in the game that she does. Every character has to have motivations, and a family member or partner is the best motivation storytelling can use because that is the most relatable thing to real people.

We all have friends, family, and lovers, so by our very nature we can relate to the heroes call when they are responding to the need of one of those three things.

It's basic storytelling, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Yeah, nice try, but no. The male characters aren't criticized for their looks, because they look like traditional men - gruff and hairy - NOT because of lack of screen time. And because the women don't look like traditional women (in games) they do get criticized, and labeled as 'deliberately made to look ugly'.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Because one is specifically meant to look strong and imposing and the other is specifically meant to look sexy

Again no. Women and some men alike, think that the strong looking man is sexy. Just like the attractive woman is sexy. You are demonizing the female form for being what it is. Just because a character is attractive doesn't make them deliberately sexy by proxy. Instead people simply find attractive characters...well attractive. Just because a character is good looking, doesn't mean they are deliberately designed to be sexy. The new Lara Croft is an attractive character, but not for the purpose of being sexy.

No, I'm addressing the 'sex sells' argument. Sex is part of human nature, sex selling isn't, that's industry. And putting a dollar value on sex and primarily using women to get that money... that needs to be addressed, and that needs to change.

Again you are asking companies to deny the easiest and most successful form on advertisement. You will never EVER convince any business to deliberately ignore the most money making form of advertisement. It aint going to happen to there is nothing to address.

You're the one claiming "hardcore gaming" is mainly straight men, therefor sexy ladies are important in "hardcore gaming". That's how you create the image of a boys club. Gaming isn't as much a boys club as it used to be, and the focus on games not having sexy woman as a mandate is part of why.

Attractiveness does not automatically equal sexy. You are unable to see the difference here and I don't understand why. You have a very set view on things and I don't think anything I can say will change your mind. EVERYONE likes attractive characters, it is YOUR bias towards the feminine from that equates attractive with sexy. This isn't always the case. Sure some female characters are designed to use sex as a weapon, Catwoman, BlackCat, Bayonetta, etc. However for every deliberate sexy female character there are attractive characters that aren't used for any sort of sexualization. Lilith from Borderlands, Samus Arran, reboot Lara Croft, Aloy, that chick from Gears of War, Zelda, princess Peach, All the Overwatch Girls, on and on.

(Note I'm not counting fan made content because Rule34 exists for every character and isn't part of the original intention or design of the character)

Yet I doubt those harressments are geared toward the gender of those men.

Which simply shows the lack of creativity or true intent of the "harrassment" Because shit talk is shit talk and it is designed to enrage and upset in order to generate a competitive edge. Thus people attack whatever they can. Men are typically just called the n-word or Fa**ot or whatever in order to upset them. Trash talk is a part of competitive gaming and this "harrassment" is specifically generated in competitive games the majority of the time.

People often attack the lowest hanging fruit. If someone is fat they make fun of their weight, if they are girls they attack the gender, if they know race they attack that. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that there isn't a bias intent. Everybody gets shit equally.

Yeah, nice try, but no. The male characters aren't criticized for their looks, because they look like traditional men - gruff and hairy - NOT because of lack of screen time. And because the women don't look like traditional women (in games) they do get criticized, and labeled as 'deliberately made to look ugly'.

Now you are projecting intent. you have no evidence or reasoning behind this other than your own bias for why people are attacking specifically the girls in TLOU2.


The women are given the spot light in a game that a lot of people were very mad at. This is literally the only reason why these coments are being made. Nothing more.


Have you ever seen to people talking shit to each other, and one person runs out of shit to say so they end up just saying something like, "Oh yeah.....well.....well....you've got a fucked up nose."

This is basically what's happening with the critique of Abby. but because it is the internet we have to blame it on toxic masculinity because people don't know how to take criticism nor rationalize ideas.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Again no. Women and some men alike, think that the strong looking man is sexy. Just like the attractive woman is sexy. You are demonizing the female form for being what it is. Just because a character is attractive doesn't make them deliberately sexy by proxy. Instead people simply find attractive characters...well attractive. Just because a character is good looking, doesn't mean they are deliberately designed to be sexy. The new Lara Croft is an attractive character, but not for the purpose of being sexy.

No, I'm criticizing people who demonize the female form that isn't traditionally feminine. Like the people who got so uppity about Abby's muscles, because she's a woman and, wait... she's NOT trans?! IMPOSSIBLE, only men can have such muscles!

The female form is varying, and a woman who has a traditional hourglass figure isn't anymore a woman than one who is muscular, or skinny, or large. And only showing one form, excluding others, for the sake of 'sex sells' demonizes those that don't adhire to that standard. Which is why it's good to have variety.

Again you are asking companies to deny the easiest and most successful form on advertisement. You will never EVER convince any business to deliberately ignore the most money making form of advertisement. It aint going to happen to there is nothing to address.

So because the companies in charge don't want to change we should just let them do whatever makes them the most money? Yeah, that's totally not worth addressing or fixing.

Attractiveness does not automatically equal sexy. You are unable to see the difference here and I don't understand why. You have a very set view on things and I don't think anything I can say will change your mind. EVERYONE likes attractive characters, it is YOUR bias towards the feminine from that equates attractive with sexy. This isn't always the case. Sure some female characters are designed to use sex as a weapon, Catwoman, BlackCat, Bayonetta, etc. However for every deliberate sexy female character there are attractive characters that aren't used for any sort of sexualization. Lilith from Borderlands, Samus Arran, reboot Lara Croft, Aloy, that chick from Gears of War, Zelda, princess Peach, All the Overwatch Girls, on and on.

(Note I'm not counting fan made content because Rule34 exists for every character and isn't part of the original intention or design of the character)

Yeah, none of the Overwatch girls are sexualized? Eh...

And no, I equate attractiveness to attractiveness, seeing as just a few posts ago I said the women in TLoU2 are clearly attractive, but not sexualized. And I said this in response to claims that Naughty Dog deliberately made their female characters ugly. Because apparently not being sexy means being ugly. Or that making their female characters look "drab" somehow proves Naughty Dog is guilty of... something.

Which simply shows the lack of creativity or true intent of the "harrassment" Because shit talk is shit talk and it is designed to enrage and upset in order to generate a competitive edge. Thus people attack whatever they can. Men are typically just called the n-word or Fa**ot or whatever in order to upset them. Trash talk is a part of competitive gaming and this "harrassment" is specifically generated in competitive games the majority of the time.

People often attack the lowest hanging fruit. If someone is fat they make fun of their weight, if they are girls they attack the gender, if they know race they attack that. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that there isn't a bias intent. Everybody gets shit equally.

No, it shows a bias against people who aren't straight white guys. If there wasn't a bias, those race, gender, and sexual orientation focused insults wouldn't exist.

Now you are projecting intent. you have no evidence or reasoning behind this other than your own bias for why people are attacking specifically the girls in TLOU2.


The women are given the spot light in a game that a lot of people were very mad at. This is literally the only reason why these coments are being made. Nothing more.


Have you ever seen to people talking shit to each other, and one person runs out of shit to say so they end up just saying something like, "Oh yeah.....well.....well....you've got a fucked up nose."

This is basically what's happening with the critique of Abby. but because it is the internet we have to blame it on toxic masculinity because people don't know how to take criticism nor rationalize ideas.

Dude, way earlier in this thread you yourself posted that picture of Dina and her face model to show how much more masculine Dina apparently was. Did you only do that because you didn't like the game? What would be the point of that? Because you seemed pretty sure of your case there, not just to talk shit, but to prove a point. Eventhough that picture was the oddest way to try and prove that particular point.

And we can blame it on toxic masculinity, because most the critique about Abby's appearance is centered around her gender and how it's impossible for a woman, no scratch that, impossible for a woman who isn't trans, no scratch that, impossible for a woman in the post-apocalypse. This isn't people running out of things to say, it's people deliberately focussing on one specific aspect. That aspect being 'A woman... WITH MUSCLES?!'

 

[CriticalGaming]

No, it shows a bias against people who aren't straight white guys. If there wasn't a bias, those race, gender, and sexual orientation focused insults wouldn't exist.

You didn't read what I said about this. "People often attack the lowest hanging fruit. If someone is fat they make fun of their weight, if they are girls they attack the gender, if they know race they attack that. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that there isn't a bias intent. Everybody gets shit equally."

Dude, way earlier in this thread you yourself posted that picture of Dina and her face model to show how much more masculine Dina apparently was. Did you only do that because you didn't like the game? What would be the point of that? Because you seemed pretty sure of your case there, not just to talk shit, but to prove a point.

That post to to highlight the example of Naughty Dog clearly downplaying the real versions of the women they are portraying within the game itself. That part of the thread was talking about ND downplaying the females in the game.

And we can blame it on toxic masculinity, because most the critique about Abby's appearance is centered around her gender and how it's impossible for a woman, no scratch that, impossible for a woman who isn't trans, no scratch that, impossible for a woman in the post-apocalypse. This isn't people running out of things to say, it's people deliberately focussing on one specific aspect. That aspect being 'A woman... WITH MUSCLES?!'

Ok so let's keep ignoring the psychology around why that's happening, which I've already explained in this thread several times.

So let me pose a different question to the class.

So what? Who the fuck cares if people have a problem with her design? It's like not liking a piece of art. People have a right to not like things. And they have the right to not like something for whatever reason they want. Sometimes it is something as simple as Abby's case in that her muscles unsettle people and therefore they do not like Abby because of it. So what? Why is that wrong?

You see that's kind of the problem that the left has tried to lay on people. "If you don't like X-thing then you are a biggot, homophobe, transphobe, racist, facist, etc etc etc."


Hating Abby's muscles is wrong and makes you a misogynist, or whatever the case is. If people have problem with her muscles, why can't that be a valid reason?

Remember this is a fictional person. It's not real. It's art and nothing more than a 3D rendering. Her personality is fake, her actions are fake, and she doesn't exist outside of a fictional world. So why does not liking her for her artistic design make someone a bad person?

 

[Casual Shinji]

You didn't read what I said about this. "People often attack the lowest hanging fruit. If someone is fat they make fun of their weight, if they are girls they attack the gender, if they know race they attack that. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that there isn't a bias intent. Everybody gets shit equally."

And you don't think races, genders, and orientations different from being male, white, and straight being considered "low-hanging fruit" is an issue? Because that's an issue.

That post to to highlight the example of Naughty Dog clearly downplaying the real versions of the women they are portraying within the game itself. That part of the thread was talking about ND downplaying the females in the game.

Which itself makes no sense, since nothing is being downplayed. But even then, so? How is this a gotcha? 'Naughty Dog designed their character to look the way they wanted her to look, see.' She doesn't look physically one-to one with the face model - preference on 'face' btw - so they clearly downplayed her being a woman? She doesn't have the same voice as the face model either; does that count too? Or doesn't it because the face model actually has a slightly deeper voice than Shannon Woodward? Or again, is this just a really dumb point to prove?

Ok so let's keep ignoring the psychology around why that's happening, which I've already explained in this thread several times.

So let me pose a different question to the class.

So what? Who the fuck cares if people have a problem with her design? It's like not liking a piece of art. People have a right to not like things. And they have the right to not like something for whatever reason they want. Sometimes it is something as simple as Abby's case in that her muscles unsettle people and therefore they do not like Abby because of it. So what? Why is that wrong?

You see that's kind of the problem that the left has tried to lay on people. "If you don't like X-thing then you are a biggot, homophobe, transphobe, racist, facist, etc etc etc."


Hating Abby's muscles is wrong and makes you a misogynist, or whatever the case is. If people have problem with her muscles, why can't that be a valid reason?

Remember this is a fictional person. It's not real. It's art and nothing more than a 3D rendering. Her personality is fake, her actions are fake, and she doesn't exist outside of a fictional world. So why does not liking her for her artistic design make someone a bad person?

If you don't like something specifically because of the presence of a particular race, gender, or sexual orientation then that's a problem. And if the problem people have with Abby's design is that she can't be muscular because she's a woman it shows a clear issue with how women are being viewed. And let me makes myself clear, NOT people who just don't go for muscular girls and that's that, but people who make a case against a female character having muscles, because she's a woman and that's just not possible. That's not having a valid point, that's being sexist. Fictional character or not.