Democrats already proposing austerity before DNC even ends

[Eacaraxe]

Often the progressive votes are in regions democrats will win regardless, but not entirely.

Well that's really the problem, and that goes back to general Democratic tone-deafness and coastal, bougie, hegemony over intra-party thought and the distinction between aesthetics and policy. It's not the safe-blue state progressives and "progressives" Democrats need to worry about, it's the pissed-off, pro-labor, populists in the rust belt and coal belt Democrats need to reach out to. And it's them that are going to look at proposals like increasing COPS funding and say, "exactly how stupid do you think we are? fuck you too".

Progressives ARE liberals.

No, no they're not. I'm a socialist, to me "liberal" is an insult.

 

[lil devils x]

Well that's really the problem, and that goes back to general Democratic tone-deafness and coastal, bougie, hegemony over intra-party thought and the distinction between aesthetics and policy. It's not the safe-blue state progressives and "progressives" Democrats need to worry about, it's the pissed-off, pro-labor, populists in the rust belt and coal belt Democrats need to reach out to. And it's them that are going to look at proposals like increasing COPS funding and say, "exactly how stupid do you think we are? fuck you too".


No, no they're not. I'm a socialist, to me "liberal" is an insult.

Liberal is a synonym for progressive for a reason. Mixed economies are great when they work in favor, not against the workers or small business. For example, supporting people to design and make stuff to sell on Etsy, but ALSO think workers should have part ownership of businesses they work for. It is a matter of what, where and how it is done.

You also have to consider that much of the rust belt is moderate and conservative as well now.

 

[Revnak]

Liberal is a synonym for progressive for a reason. Mixed economies are great when they work in favor, not against the workers or small business. For example, supporting people to design and make stuff to sell on Etsy, but ALSO think workers should have part ownership of businesses they work for. It is a matter of what, where and how it is done.

You also have to consider that much of the rust belt is moderate and conservative as well now.

Liberal doesn’t mean that.

 

[lil devils x]

No, no they're not. I'm a socialist, to me "liberal" is an insult.

This really isn't an insult:

If by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people—their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties—someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal", then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal".~JFK

"The modern liberal philosophy strongly endorses public spending on programs such as education, health care and welfare. Important social issues during the first part of the 21st century include economic inequality (wealth and income),[5] voting rights for minorities,[6] affirmative action,[7] reproductive and other women's rights,[8] support for LGBT rights[9][10] and immigration reform.[11][12] "

Economically, modern liberalism opposes cuts to the social safety net and supports a role for government in reducing inequality, providing education, ensuring access to healthcare, regulating economic activity and protecting the natural environment.[2] This form of liberalism took shape in the 20th century United States as the franchise and other civil rights were extended to a larger class of citizens. Major examples include Theodore Roosevelt's Square Deal and New Nationalism, Woodrow Wilson's New Freedom, Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal, Harry S. Truman's Fair Deal, John F. Kennedy's New Frontier and Lyndon B. Johnson's Great Society.

Modern liberalism in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[lil devils x]

Liberal doesn’t mean that.

Yes, yes it actually does. I posted the definition above. Don't confuse liberalism and corporatism, they are not one in the same.

 

[Revnak]

Yes, yes it actually does. I posted the definition above. Don't confuse liberalism and corporatism, they are not one in the same.

Then your definition is terrifyingly ahistorical.

 

[Agema]

Liberal is a synonym for progressive for a reason.

It might be in the USA, but it's not in my country and many others.

I would say that there is currently substantial overlap between people we call liberals and people we would call progressives, but they're not the same thing: many progressives would be termed socialists, not liberals.

 

[deleted20220709]

DELETED

 

[Satinavian]

I think i have occasionally seen what most of the world calles "liberal" referred to as "libertarian" in the US.


Personally i don't like using the word "liberal" because it means very different things to different people. Not that "progressive" is that much better.

 

[tstorm823]

Not that "progressive" is that much better.

I mean, if all of you would like to take on a new banner that's more specific, I'll gladly take this title back to where it belongs.

 

[Buyetyen]

Let's look at Bill Clinton

Bill Clinton is not on the ballot. Biden and Trump are.

Let me state my personal case plainly. If Trump succeeds in killing the ACA, I lose my medical coverage and can no longer get prescriptions or therapy. There is guaranteed to be no new round stimulus checks or extended unemployment, so I'll end up penniless long before the pandemic is over. Speaking of which, it's pretty clear at this point that Trump's approach to the virus is to do nothing and take all the credit when medical science finally offers us a way out of this nightmare. If he succeeds in killing Social Security, and he appears to be making that a priority, my grandparents lose their house, which is really bad considering my grandfather is in advanced stages of dementia. Several of my relations will be in a similar situation and probably end up homeless. If Trump and DeJoy succeed in killing the post office, that will have a knock-on effect on our economy and infrastructure that even you won't be able to dodge the consequences of. Simply put, you have the luxury of waiting 4 more years to get your way. I don't. The lives of myself and my loved ones are literally riding on this election. You say I'm overstating the damage Trump is causing. I say you don't recognize it because you're not the one being hurt. It's real easy to spit on desperate people. It takes courage to listen to their stories. I hope someday you find that courage.

Would you pushback against a accusation of beating your wife if people said it everyday? Would there be any answer to that would make being a non-voter okay in your eyes?

No. I consider it a civic responsibility. And I find using the choice to grandstand and make it all about you (in the general sense) to be distasteful. I know what despair feels like. I also know it doesn't change unless you do something about it.

I'm not so sure we can get those canidate up and running by then.

Depends. Are you focusing exclusively on the big ticket races like the Oval Office? Or are you also seeding the state and local levels with better candidates? This is going to way more than one election cycle to fix and focusing exclusively on the federal government is a strategy that has ultimately not worked out for us.

A left having stronger voice disrupting media narratives would make me better about our hypothetical candidate or is the chosen.

And that won't happen until progressives, you and I included, pound the pavement harder and more ourselves impossible to ignore. I take no joy in saying this, but for years progressives got complacent and allowed the GOP and the establishment to control the narrative. We need to get angry. Angry gets shit done.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

WTF?! A nap and a sleep and suddenly the number of pages has doubled?

 

[Buyetyen]

WTF?! A nap and a sleep and suddenly the number of pages has doubled?

I blame myself. I was insomniac and in pain and indulged in some sniping matches more than I should have. Which is to say, at all. I'll make a note to avoid that in the future.

 

[Agema]

I think i have occasionally seen what most of the world calles "liberal" referred to as "libertarian" in the US.

Personally i don't like using the word "liberal" because it means very different things to different people. Not that "progressive" is that much better.

Liberalism spans a very wide spread from libertarianism to social liberalism, where the latter can be effectively indistinguishable from social democrats in terms of practical policy (although they have different ideological roots).

The main fundamental concept of liberalism is individual freedom, but how that is interpreted causes a lot of difference. The main split is over the idea of negative and positive liberties, where the libertarian/right end focuses on negative liberty and the social liberal / left end on positive liberty. Many countries have also their own different traditions of liberalism: Continental European liberals tend to centre-right, Anglophone countries tend to centre-left.

 

[lil devils x]

It might be in the USA, but it's not in my country and many others.

I would say that there is currently substantial overlap between people we call liberals and people we would call progressives, but they're not the same thing: many progressives would be termed socialists, not liberals.

When you read the link I provided above, it was pretty clear that American and European liberalism are two different things:

Today, liberalism is used differently in different countries. One of the greatest contrasts is between the usage in the United States and usage in Europe. According to Arthur M. Schlesinger Jr. (writing in 1956), "[l]iberalism in the American usage has little in common with the word as used in the politics of any European country, save possibly Britain".[30] In Europe, liberalism usually means what is sometimes called classical liberalism, a commitment to limited government, laissez-faire economics and unalienable individual rights. This classical liberalism sometimes more closely corresponds to the American definition of libertarianism, although some distinguish between classical liberalism and libertarianism.[31]

In the United States, the general term liberalism almost always refer to modern liberalism, a more social variant of classical liberalism. In Europe, this social liberalism is closer to European social democracy, although the original form is advocated by some liberal parties in Europe as well as with the Beveridge Group faction within the Liberal Democrats, the Liberals, the Danish Social Liberal Party, the Democratic Movement and the Italian Republican Party.

Just as the words democrats and republicans mean different things depending on the country, so does Liberalism. When the American right attempts to call you a liberal as an insult, it is actually a compliment. XD

 

[Eacaraxe]

You also have to consider that much of the rust belt is moderate and conservative as well now.

This is not not necessarily true, but you are not going to understand the mechanism behind this and the socioeconomic cleavages in rust belt, coal belt, and heartland states, and neither are Democrats who are doomed to lose there in perpetuity, until y'all stop and do some active listening instead of just repeat disproven talking points.

We're almost 99 years to the day since the Battle of Blair Mountain, and people who were unionists to the point of literally staging an armed rebellion against the US Army for the right to organize for better wages, did not go from that to die-hard Trump country in less than a century for no reason or by accident. And no, unlike what liberals are so fond of saying, that is not "racism".

 

[Thaluikhain]

"Liberal" in Australia usually refers to "Liberal Party of Australia" our slightly rightmost of our viable parties.

Also:
That always seemed funny and silly when I was young, later it seemed funny and reallt depressing.

 

[lil devils x]

This is not not necessarily true, but you are not going to understand the mechanism behind this and the socioeconomic cleavages in rust belt, coal belt, and heartland states, and neither are Democrats who are doomed to lose there in perpetuity, until y'all stop and do some active listening instead of just repeat disproven talking points.

Why would I not understand the socioeconomic cleavages in the rust belt? I have plenty of friends and family there and they are telling me the same thing I have seen with my own eyes. We now have the KKK from Michigan coming down to Texas to recruit at the courthouse in my hometown... Yes, the far right has made a good amount of progress in Ohio and Michigan right now. High unemployment has led led to a pretty hellish landscape in much of the region tbh.

 

[Eacaraxe]

Why would I not understand the socioeconomic cleavages in the rust belt? I have plenty of friends and family there and they are telling me the same thing I have seen with my own eyes. We now have the KKK from Michigan coming down to Texas to recruit at the courthouse in my hometown... Yes, the far right has made a good amount of progress in Ohio and Michigan right now.

Okay then explain to me how we got where we are from the Battle of Blair Mountain.

 

[lil devils x]

Okay then explain to me how we got where we are from the Battle of Blair Mountain.

1) West Virginia isn't even in the rust belt, and this is no longer the 1920's.
2) Widespread unemployment after the factories closed along with right to work states drawing the business away pretty well undermines the union's strength.
3) Many people are still delusional in believing bringing back factory jobs will solve the problem, it won't because factories nolonger provide the jobs, The new ones being opened are mostly 100% automated now, so factories only bring more pollution, like the rust belt needs more of that.
4) it would be more useful to discuss what is happening NOW in the Rustbelt than pretend like what happened prior to the great depression is somehow more relevant.