Current Systemic Issues in the Anime Industry and Community

[Specter Von Baren]

It's funny that everyone here thinks that I hate anime. In truth, I probably like anime more then anyone here. What I don't like is fetishistic anime that tells weebs and otaku that it's okay not to grow, and improve, and live. That they should live in darkness, given over to their basist instincts, their one source of serotonin. Until even that dries up, and ceases to make them happy. I'll stand with the people who are, or were, masters in their industry. Who elevated the entire medium to a higher art form.

I actually wasn't even referring to you here but I can see why you came to the conclusion. I'm also reminded of how ME!ME!ME! was apparently supposed to be mocking that kind of lifestyle but unfortunately (For them) anime fans loved it.

You know, being called "woke" because they would rather focus on positive forms of marketing rather than relying on cheap pandering that has consumed the industry in a nihilistic approach to marketing.

I find it laughable that you think Hollywood is somehow not relying on cheap pandering and marketing now.

 

[Dreiko]

I actually wasn't even referring to you here but I can see why you came to the conclusion. I'm also reminded of how ME!ME!ME! was apparently supposed to be mocking that kind of lifestyle but unfortunately (For them) anime fans loved it.

Mememe and Girl-Daoko, its sequel about the girl who is tempting the dude (that people forget exists but is way more compelling imo) are both interesting critiques coming from within the community. Do not besmirch them by likening them to vapid moral panic and snobbery XD.


And no there's no contradiction about anime fans loving it. Anime fans can look at themselves, they know all this stuff, it's part of being happy to accept yourself. It works in Persona too. You don't kill your shadow, you just accept it existing and stop denying it.

 

[Trunkage]

I actually wasn't even referring to you here but I can see why you came to the conclusion. I'm also reminded of how ME!ME!ME! was apparently supposed to be mocking that kind of lifestyle but unfortunately (For them) anime fans loved it.

You are mistaking you as an anime fan for everyone as an anime fan. I like my anime with substance, not just worried about tits. Tits don't make for a great story or character

You know there’s porn right? They usually have better stories and character in those too. Sorry, they don't do the underage thing so it might be a no go

I find it laughable that you think Hollywood is somehow not relying on cheap pandering and marketing now.

Compared to anime, Hollywood is saintly with it marketing.
It's not a compliment.
.

 

[lil devils x]

That's an overbroad generalization. I've read and watched tons of shows/manga drawn and animated and aimed at a primarily female audience (I adore Clamp), they're just as raunchy too. Also a lot more of their raunchy themes revolve around incest or age gaps (with the girl being the young party, and this is something by women for women).

The more serious female fans are called Fujoshi and even have their own genres that are mainly catering to them, they revolve around gay dudes and stuff. They call it BL or boylove. They most certainly have no general issues like the ones you're describing. Individual women may feel a certain way but that's just that one person's opinion and not a broad issue.

Anime is Japanese animation, "cartoon" has this americann-ish nuance to it. In Japan anime just means anything animated, outside of Japan anime means Japanese animation. You just think of everything animated as a cartoon because of american-bias. As someone who comes from a third country into this equation it's easier to differentiate the two because neither was made where I grew up yet I was VERY capable of telling anime and cartoons apart ever since I was a very young child. Around age 5.

It is my friend in Japan that calls them " cartoons" regardless of what "western" nuance to it you think it has. I think she really likes calling them cartoons intentionally though to get under the skin of non Japanese anime fans though because she thinks it's funny. Anime fans in Japan don't even care. You couldn't be more off in your assessment of that one. That was why I said it at all.

What specifically is an overbroad generalization? I am not talking about all Anime here, I am specifically referencing the ones that promote sexualizing child like qualities in females. Putting 19 yr old boobs on an otherwise 4 year old character does exactly that. The existence of some women who say they don't have a problem doesn't somehow cancel out what women who like and the ones who dislike Anime are telling us as well. It isn't addressing the actual issue being brought up. Women can like Anime but not like how women are being portrayed in some types of anime, especially the ones who make them stupid, naive or child like. Women, even Japanese women like to be seen as strong and intelligent women as well, this isn't just limited to women of any one culture. The primary issue with fetishizing childlike attributes is that actually becomes the attributes that those boys growing up watching this start to look for in females and then there becomes a serious problem when we have men now telling us that Anime was responsible for making them feel this way towards children. It is messed up really. That and the impact it has on how young girls view themselves. When we have young girls watching these thing and think that is acceptable or okay for them to do, we run into it actually being a grooming product.

Specifically scenes in the Anime we were discussing before, The way that " Sempai" unknowingly doing sexual activities to her like feeling her breasts under her clothes is somehow " acceptable" because he " didn't know that was what he was doing". That right there is a HUGE issue because THAT is EXACTLY what child rapists do. They touch you and then pretend like it was an accident. They put their hands under children's clothes and act like they had no idea so that the kids just think it was an accident to excuse their behavior. That is the exact thing that sexual predators do to their victims. How that can be somehow " excusable' is messed up on another scale.

 

[lil devils x]

Just in case you don't actually think that is happening here are some references:

'Pedophile molested girl, 3, then tried to blame perverted Japanese comics'

Uber driver Justin Hughes reportedly told police: ''Do you have children? If you do, keep them away from Anime and Manga'

metro.co.uk

Man Pleads Guilty to Coercing Girl He Met at Anime Con

33-year-old man allegedly met 13-year-old girl at Maryland event in 2010

www.animenewsnetwork.com

Victims Speak Out After Canada's Anime Revolution Con Allows Serial Harasser, Convicted Sex Offender to Attend

Victim: "I don't know what I get more PTSD from, the legal system or Bram."

www.animenewsnetwork.com

 

[Dreiko]

It is my friend in Japan that calls them " cartoons" regardless of what "western" nuance to it you think it has. I think she really likes calling them cartoons intentionally though to get under the skin of non Japanese anime fans though because she thinks it's funny. You couldn't be more off in your assessment of that one. That was why I said it at all.

What specifically is an overbroad generalization? I am not talking about all Anime here, I am specifically referencing the ones that promote sexualizing child like qualities in females. Putting 19 yr old boobs on an otherwise 4 year old character does exactly that. The existence of some women who say they don't have a problem doesn't somehow cancel out what women who like and the ones who dislike Anime are telling us as well. It isn't addressing the actual issue being brought up. Women can like Anime but not like how women are being portrayed in some types of anime, especially the ones who make them stupid, naive or child like. Women, even Japanese women like to be seen as strong and intelligent women as well, this isn't just limited to women of any one culture. The primary issue with fetishizing childlike attributes is that actually becomes the attributes that those boys growing up watching this start to look for in females and then there becomes a serious problem when we have men now telling us that Anime was responsible for making them feel this way towards children. It is messed up really. That and the impact it has on how young girls view themselves. When we have young girls watching these thing and think that is acceptable or okay for them to do, we run into it actually being a grooming product.

Specifically scenes in the Anime we were discussing before, The way that " Sempai" unknowingly doing sexual activities to her like feeling her breasts under her clothes is somehow " acceptable" because he " didn't know that was what he was doing". That right there is a HUGE issue because THAT is EXACTLY what child rapists do. They touch you and then pretend like it was an accident. They put their hands under children's clothes and act like they had no idea so that the kids just think it was an accident to excuse their behavior. That is the exact thing that sexual predators do to their victims. How that can be somehow " excusable' is messed up on another scale.

You're conflating unrelated things here. This thing you're describing is called "lucky sukebe" which is that situation where through some divine coincidence the guy ends up falling into the boobs of someone or gropes them or sees their underwear, something like that. To jump from that to people who PRETEND to accidentally touch you when they're doing it intentionally is to completely change the situation.

One is a male fantasy, the other is predators exploiting that male fantasy to abuse kids. It's not the fantasy's fault. It's not the fans' fault, it's the molester's fault, their and their alone.

If we altered everything a molester or pedo ever utilized to abuse a kid we'd not have pools or vans or uncles/stepdads any more. No, what we do is just punish those individuals. This is how society works.

 

[lil devils x]

You're conflating unrelated things here. This thing you're describing is called "lucky sukebe" which is that situation where through some divine coincidence the guy ends up falling into the boobs of someone or gropes them or sees their underwear, something like that. To jump from that to people who PRETEND to accidentally touch you when they're doing it intentionally is to completely change the situation.

One is a male fantasy, the other is predators exploiting that male fantasy to abuse kids. It's not the fantasy's fault. It's not the fans' fault, it's the molester's fault, their and their alone.

If we altered everything a molester or pedo ever utilized to abuse a kid we'd not have pools or vans or uncles/stepdads any more. No, what we do is just punish those individuals. This is how society works.

That is the same thing that is happening though. Being blindfolded and putting your hands under a bikini top for an extended amount of time to make sure you get a lot of groping footage in and somehow not know that is what is happening? GIVE ME A BREAK. No one is buying it. You're not even buying it so you can't convince others when you don't even believe that yourself. That is just a BS excuse at this point. It stops being a " lucky sukebe" when they are INSIDE her clothes. Bumping into someone once is one thing, and th person you are bumping into sexually better not be portrayed as childlike or that is still not okay either.

It is utter nonsense to claim "we wouldn't have anything if we can't sexualize kids or rape or sexual assault in anime" Do you really think anyone is going to believe that argument?

EDIT: If they want to fetishize rape and sexual assault, put it in the category with rape porn, sexualize kids : put it in child porn and deal with whatever legal repercussions you have to deal with because of it. Not just let it stay on Youtube without even logging in... Not just make excuses for the ramifications of it because it is " fantasy". If it can be used as a grooming product, and predators are telling us it is what made them sexualize children then it should be treated accordingly. We outlaw child porn for a reason. This just " flirting with the idea" doesn't somehow make it better. Expecting them to just leave the kiddies out of it isn't really asking too much I don't think. Porn is great, they can make as much of that as they want, they just classify it as such and treat it accordingly.

 

[Houseman]

Women, even Japanese women like to be seen as strong and intelligent women as well, this isn't just limited to women of any one culture.

Ding Ding Ding!

You've just stumbled upon the Galbrush Paradox

Like I said on page 1, how is it that guys can be seen as weak, unintelligent, ineffective, awkward, cowardly, and childish, and it becomes a fun source of comedy for everyone to laugh at and nobody has a problem with it.

But oh no, it's a big problem to have a girl have any of these qualities. Women must always be presented in the best possible positive light and can't be depicted with any flaws, because then gets taken as some sort of an attack on all women by certain people.

If you can't handle a depiction of women being weak or unintelligent in media, maybe you should learn to laugh at yourself the same way you laugh at all these male losers in works of fiction. Somehow, men aren't frothing at the mouth over the Homer Simpsons in media. Maybe you could take a page from their book.

Being blindfolded and putting your hands under a bikini top for an extended amount of time to make sure you get a lot of groping footage in and somehow not know that is what is happening? GIVE ME A BREAK. No one is buying it.

Oh, you're not buying this FICTIONAL situation? Well congratulations! You know the difference between FICTION and REALITY!
If you want realistic scenarios in anime, maybe anime isn't for you.

That is just a BS excuse at this point.

Yes, most fiction is just a bunch of made-up BS scenarios in order to tell a story, or as a justification for a specific scene. What's next, are you going to complain that it's BS that a magical girl could come crashing through someone's window in order to whisk them off on an adventure?

 

[Kae]

Things started to shift a bit with the newest isekai craze, a lot of the more trashier works that isn't outright hentai have more carnal male leads with implied or outright sex as far as the publisher would allow it.

Well, that kind of stuff never really ceased to exist but I do get what you mean, I did watch a bit of Goblin Slayer and thought it was gross, same with Shield Hero, and I'll admit that I haven't really been watching any Anime this year though I've heard of a few that might interest me, that being said thrashy works will never cease to exist and I personally decide to ignore them for the most part, pretty much the only time I pay attention to them is when my friends ask me to watch them, in which case I do give them a thrashing which has earned me the reputation of being very pretentious among my circle of friends.
Regardless my point was that even some negative aspects of Otaku culture can be genuinely postive, also by the way even though I'm asexual I'm not really opposed to sexual themes in stories, they just have to be tackled well, like there's this anime called Kuzu no Honkai which is very much about sex that's very fascinating, since it deals with themes of sexual exploration, depression and so on it's interesting, though I'll admit that I don't like it when it's just sex for sex's sake but I've always assumed that's more of a me problem.

-Snip-

Wow, that was a fantastic post, but yes I think a main problem with the Otaku lifestyle is that they have based so much of their identity and personality on liking Anime, that rather than criticise the industry and it's works and hoping it'll do better they just get defensive and assume that all criticisms are a form of attack towards their lifestyle, like you can't legitimately have a good intelligent discussion criticising any anime, even ones you like without some weeb getting their jimmies rustled, which to me personally shows a lack of real love and appreciation for the craft.
Of course like good Anime fans do exist and you can have a discussion with them but there's always that guy no matter what you're talking about.

 

[Dreiko]

That is the same thing that is happening though. Being blindfolded and putting your hands under a bikini top for an extended amount of time to make sure you get a lot of groping footage in and somehow not know that is what is happening? GIVE ME A BREAK. No one is buying it. You're not even buying it so you can't convince others when you don't even believe that yourself. That is just a BS excuse at this point. It stops being a " lucky sukebe" when they are INSIDE her clothes. Bumping into someone once is one thing, and th person you are bumping into sexually better not be portrayed as childlike or that is still not okay either.

It is utter nonsense to claim "we wouldn't have anything if we can't sexualize kids or rape or sexual assault in anime" Do you really think anyone is going to believe that argument?

EDIT: If they want to fetishize rape and sexual assault, put it in the category with rape porn, sexualize kids : put it in child porn and deal with whatever legal repercussions you have to deal with because of it. Not just let it stay on Youtube without even logging in... Not just make excuses for the ramifications of it because it is " fantasy". If it can be used as a grooming product, and predators are telling us it is what made them sexualize children then it should be treated accordingly. We outlaw child porn for a reason. This just " flirting with the idea" doesn't somehow make it better. Expecting them to just leave the kiddies out of it isn't really asking too much I don't think. Porn is great, they can make as much of that as they want, they just classify it as such and treat it accordingly.

Actually, this fits in with a world where Uzaki is unaware of her sex appeal, both of em are dumb and complete eachother. Suspension of disbelief is very useful, give it a try, it helps with enjoying stuff. It's honestly kinda amusing that such a mellow thing is what is eliciting this reaction. Also I like how I end up being some kinda huge boob advocate when I tend to be more on the flat is justice side of things, alas.


There's no sexual assault or rape or porn, there's just lewd comedy. Also there's no child porn either, because there's no child. I'm sorry but I don't care what a pedo has to say to excuse himself. Anyone who watches something on tv and then goes on to assault someone is either lying to shift blame or already had other issues that were the real problem. Normal well-adjusted individuals don't just get corrupted like little dainty flowers by some random unspecified show.

 

[Gordon_4]

Actually, this fits in with a world where Uzaki is unaware of her sex appeal, both of em are dumb and complete eachother. Suspension of disbelief is very useful, give it a try, it helps with enjoying stuff. It's honestly kinda amusing that such a mellow thing is what is eliciting this reaction. Also I like how I end up being some kinda huge boob advocate when I tend to be more on the flat is justice side of things, alas.


There's no sexual assault or rape or porn, there's just lewd comedy. Also there's no child porn either, because there's no child. I'm sorry but I don't care what a pedo has to say to excuse himself. Anyone who watches something on tv and then goes on to assault someone is either lying to shift blame or already had other issues that were the real problem. Normal well-adjusted individuals don't just get corrupted like little dainty flowers by some random unspecified show.

Disbelief can only be suspended so far. And honestly the cosmic chew toy bullshit is just getting old and trite by this point in the medium’s history. It’s creators need to grow up a little.

 

[lil devils x]

Actually, this fits in with a world where Uzaki is unaware of her sex appeal, both of em are dumb and complete eachother. Suspension of disbelief is very useful, give it a try, it helps with enjoying stuff. It's honestly kinda amusing that such a mellow thing is what is eliciting this reaction. Also I like how I end up being some kinda huge boob advocate when I tend to be more on the flat is justice side of things, alas.


There's no sexual assault or rape or porn, there's just lewd comedy. Also there's no child porn either, because there's no child. I'm sorry but I don't care what a pedo has to say to excuse himself. Anyone who watches something on tv and then goes on to assault someone is either lying to shift blame or already had other issues that were the real problem. Normal well-adjusted individuals don't just get corrupted like little dainty flowers by some random unspecified show.

You want people to stop thinking about sexual assault so we can enjoy it?? She was not unaware of being sexually assaulted, they made it clear that she was abundantly aware that was happening, but it was somehow okay because he " didn't know he was doing it".. For one to be able to give legal consent to sexual activity :
" The individual must have knowledge, rationality, and voluntariness with respect to the decision to engage in specific sexual activity." Saying she is not aware of her own body means she lacks the ability to consent.

Telling people they have to shut down their logic and critical thinking in order to enjoy something isn't really helping your argument here. I enjoy LOTS of things and do not have to shut down my brain to do so. Actually enjoying something is what makes it more enjoyable, not shutting off my brain. According to US law, a person of legal adult age is not a consenting adult if they have a childlike mind, and other considerations are made other than their physical age in these cases.

 

[Houseman]

okay because he " didn't know he was doing it"..

Yes. That's how accidents work. They're unintentional. You're confusing (perhaps deliberately) a genuine accident with malicious intent.

 

[Drathnoxis]

Tails are a thing that regenerates only during a saiyan's youth, so if he loses it past a certain age then his body forgets how to regrow it so at that point they can't get a tail any more. Also you can't be an SSJ with a tail and after becoming one it also won't grow back, so Trunks and Goten who were born SSJ never had one. Though presumably future Trunks did.

And scars are just cosmetic, the tissue underneath it would be repaired.

The brain damage would definitely be scar tissue by the time that Goku first eats Senzu. Sudden personality change is definitely a symptom of brain damage (as are learning disabilities), however, I don't believe head injuries are an accepted method of "undoing programing."

Also, Vegeta is confident that his tail will grow back when coming out of the treatment pod after his fight with Goku, so that puts a hole in the theory that it's only a childhood thing. It just doesn't because Toriyama hates tails and how they complicate the story.

 

[Gordon_4]

Yes. That's how accidents work. They're unintentional. You're confusing (perhaps deliberately) a genuine accident with malicious intent.

Once is an accident, twice is happenstance, three times is enemy action.

 

[Drathnoxis]

Ding Ding Ding!

You've just stumbled upon the Galbrush Paradox

Like I said on page 1, how is it that guys can be seen as weak, unintelligent, ineffective, awkward, cowardly, and childish, and it becomes a fun source of comedy for everyone to laugh at and nobody has a problem with it.

But oh no, it's a big problem to have a girl have any of these qualities. Women must always be presented in the best possible positive light and can't be depicted with any flaws, because then gets taken as some sort of an attack on all women by certain people.

If you can't handle a depiction of women being weak or unintelligent in media, maybe you should learn to laugh at yourself the same way you laugh at all these male losers in works of fiction. Somehow, men aren't frothing at the mouth over the Homer Simpsons in media. Maybe you could take a page from their book.

That's the reason that Terry Pratchett's female protagonists are all stiff and boring, compared to his male protagonists. I think things are loosening up a bit though these days, though.

 

[lil devils x]

Once is an accident, twice is happenstance, three times is enemy action.

There is no accident about putting your hand inside a woman's clothing and groping her boob for an extended amount of time. There is no confusion about the possibility of that ever being an accident. You don't even need it to be 3 times in that scenario.

 

[Gordon_4]

There is no accident about putting your hand inside a woman's clothing and groping her boob for an extended amount of time. There is no confusion about the possibility of that ever being an accident. You don't even need it to be 3 times in that scenario.

I could believe a comedic contrivance once. You know in the same way I can believe the whole chaos theory thing about a butterfly flapping its wings in Africa causes a hurricane in Australia or something equally implausible yet observable. But when it happens every three seconds its not only just gross its trite and stupid. It truly is a trope that I'd like them to retire for a million years.

 

[Dreiko]

You want people to stop thinking about sexual assault so we can enjoy it?? She was not unaware of being sexually assaulted, they made it clear that she was abundantly aware that was happening, but it was somehow okay because he " didn't know he was doing it".. For one to be able to give legal consent to sexual activity :
" The individual must have knowledge, rationality, and voluntariness with respect to the decision to engage in specific sexual activity." Saying she is not aware of her own body means she lacks the ability to consent.

Telling people they have to shut down their logic and critical thinking in order to enjoy something isn't really helping your argument here. I enjoy LOTS of things and do not have to shut down my brain to do so. Actually enjoying something is what makes it more enjoyable, not shutting off my brain. According to US law, a person of legal adult age is not a consenting adult if they have a childlike mind, and other considerations are made other than their physical age in these cases.

I could believe a comedic contrivance once. You know in the same way I can believe the whole chaos theory thing about a butterfly flapping its wings in Africa causes a hurricane in Australia or something equally implausible yet observable. But when it happens every three seconds its not only just gross its trite and stupid. It truly is a trope that I'd like them to retire for a million years.

Haha, you sound like the kind of reader that made To Love Ru need to come up with an over-complicated explanation for Rito's lucky sukebe being his subconscious sex-fiend that is suppressed by his conscious kind and gentle demeanor which results in him subconsciously slipping in such a divinely-calculated way where he ends up in provocative situations dozens of times. Half of them while literally asleep and completely unaware of what he is doing!

Sometimes, and try to stay with me on this one, a thing can just be silly fun without having to have big important meanings and ramifications.

A doom game is not the venue to examine the virtue of life and the horrors of death, it's just a game where you have fun and death is the vehicle. Fanservice shows are very much like that, only add sex comedy and remove gore. A venue about serious sex-related issues, rape, porn, what have you, it is not. Trying to make it be about those things in order to score points in some sort of crusade against fans of anime or what have you is just to fundamentally miss the point.


At this point, you sound like someone who can't have fun with an fps because PTSD is a real problem and because millions of people die in wars and you are so busy being a downer about these problems to allow yourself to have fun. You're being a buzzkill in an inappropriate setting for such considerations.



(also I'm very confused about the assertion that Uzaki being comically unaware of other people finding her hot somehow equals being unaware of her capacity for sexuality in its totality to the point of rendering her unable to consent, there's an insane jump in logic here that makes absolutely no sense, but focusing too much on this issue is also being overly serious about something which isn't supposed to be tackled as seriously, oh and let us not mention the part where she hypnotizes her senpai to make him call her Hana, talk about not respecting consent! )

 

[Trunkage]

Ding Ding Ding!

You've just stumbled upon the Galbrush Paradox

Like I said on page 1, how is it that guys can be seen as weak, unintelligent, ineffective, awkward, cowardly, and childish, and it becomes a fun source of comedy for everyone to laugh at and nobody has a problem with it.

But oh no, it's a big problem to have a girl have any of these qualities. Women must always be presented in the best possible positive light and can't be depicted with any flaws, because then gets taken as some sort of an attack on all women by certain people.

If you can't handle a depiction of women being weak or unintelligent in media, maybe you should learn to laugh at yourself the same way you laugh at all these male losers in works of fiction. Somehow, men aren't frothing at the mouth over the Homer Simpsons in media. Maybe you could take a page from their book.

1. How many Protags can you name that are like Guybrush (male or female). This, maybe?

watch this movie, it may surprise you
2. Females always perfect?

Females not being nice

I mean how many season was Arya pretty incompetent? 5? She cant do anything, is pretty weak, gets dragged around.

Comedic relief!

This was the other person I thought of as similar to guybrush but she is no where near a main character

I also wanted to add this but her father cops it worse.
Women are so perfect, aren't they