New Call of Duty game let's players be Non-binary

[Kae]

I'm glad you brought up Mr. Page here because I want to ask you a straight up question about that.

Did Ellen wake up one day with the feelings of maybe they're a boy? Or has Elliot always been Elliot? Because I've seen arguments made when a trans person says they are male/female that in their heart they've always been that gender. So in theory Mr. Page has always been Mr. Page, always wanted to be Mr. Page. And only now has brought forth the courage to live his truth.

I don't know I'm not him, I don't know him personally either and the experience can vary wildly from person to person so I can't speak for him at all, I can relate to you my experience if you want, but mine isn't conventional as it manifested mostly as depersonalization, which statistically speaking isn't super common though depersonalization is statistically more common among trans people than any other demographic.

The reason I ask is does this mean that we have to protect Elliot continuing the role he plays on Umbrella Acadamy because that would mean a man is taking the role from a woman right? I mean people were very upset about Scarlett Johansen playing a transgender character, and we live in an age in which people are very determined to make sure that minority characters are portrayed by actors of that same minority. Therefore I guess Elliot will have to look for work elsewhere instead of taking a female role, after all we don't need more men taking more jobs from women right?

I don't know, the character was a straight woman in season one and a lesbian or bisexual in season two, I think season three has already been recorded so I wouldn't expect changes for that, but the show has been really queer positive so I wouldn't be surprised if they make the character trans too, but I don't know I don't care either to be honest.

Also does that mean that every acting credit featuring Ellen Page is now effectively Deadnaming him? I guess they'll have to go back in retroactively patch the credits to feature the correct actor's name, as I understand that deadnaming is incredibly harmful and hateful.

I mean technically, but they weren't doing that when they were made and one can't really change the past so it's little use worrying about it, about all I would suggest in that in re-releases if possible to edit the credits to read Elliot Page and that's about it, out of courtesy I would suggest referring to him as Elliot when talking about these films, but I don't know I don't think there has been a case of a high profile actor coming out as trans at such a late stage in their career before.

Now I don't actually expect you to genuinely answer that stuff. It's probably too hard to explain and we can't have my cis-brain exploding. But you do see the general confusion this causes right? You have all these principals that the LBGTQ community rigidly demand to be followed and yet the degree in which this principals are applied in any given situation will vary. Elliot Page is the latest member of the community in which the rest of the congregation can lift up as yet another victory and yet another voice for the people.

Yet another?
There aren't many, specially non-binary, but anyways, all that's being demanded is common courtesy, it's not like we don't understand the confusion but this isn't like really all that different than when you get to know a person and start referring to them as their preferred nickname instead of their name, I can understand taking a little time to adjust but people act as if it's the hardest thing in the world when it's in fact common among people of all identities.

 

[Kae]

So Elliot was a girl, played girls, exhibited girlish behavior, for the vast majority of the time that he's been in the public spotlight. In watching bloopers you can see this where in those moments of dropping character where you see the true person there you don't see any changes in posture, any signs of the man in that woman's body being trapped within.

I saw that clip, I don't understand you're point none of his behaviour seemed particularly masculine or feminine during those clips, don't know how that proves there are no signs he does say he's non-binary, don't really get why we should scrutinise it, but if you want a sign here's one.

Get it? A sign!

Which begs the question of the gender identity being something that scientifically always a truth. In that Page was a man this whole time, just in the wrong body. Or if this is a physiological thing that manifests over years, through social influence, media, and peer pressure? The reason why I ask that, is Page's behavior dramatically changes if you watch his interviews over the course of time. In 2007 when Juno press was going on you see a talented girl in interviews. Later on you get interviews like this in he seems passionate, sure. But there has been a clear change in his view of the world, the way he holds himself.

And if someone who is an full grown adult can change themselves like this, how can anyone justify encouraging children to take such a leap when kids change their interests on a literal daily basis.

It's probably because after all I don't subscribe to the gender binary but I'm not seeing what you're seeing, he doesn't seem particularly girly to me in the Juno bloopers to be honest and the slight change in attitudes and posture don't seem very big to me either, I honestly don't get what you're trying to point out here.

-Documentary stuff, snipped to be able to post response

I'd argue that the main problem with this is the gender binary, if people didn't put so much stock in it would be fine, any case isn't it better that he explored this when he was a child and got his conclusion when he was a child?
That way he didn't have to go through the difficulties and anxieties that come from being an adult and trying these things out when it can destroy your social circles and alienate their family.

Like maybe we shouldn't give a crap about what people wear or how they choose to present themselves, wouldn't that be a better solution?

That way there would be little confusion between a person that is trans and has legitimate discomfort with their body and someone that just wants to try the clothes they maybe like maybe don't.

And again I'm advocating to for extensive psychological treatment before any medical procedures, so I don't understand what your point is.

 

[CriticalGaming]

snip

I appreciate your measured reply.

I'd argue that the main problem with this is the gender binary, if people didn't put so much stock in it would be fine, any case isn't it better that he explored this when he was a child and got his conclusion when he was a child?

While that might be possible, the footage in the documentary heavily implies that the boy's trans phase was highly influenced by his mother's insistence. Something that is further highlighted by the mother's obvious regret later on when the boy put his foot down about being a boy.

I don't really see how psychological treatment can do anything for child of that age other than comfort. Something like speaking out feelings resulting in a parent's divorce or death of a close family member or something along those lines. The reason I feel that way is I think it is exceptionally rare for a child to know who they really are with any form of certainty until mid-late teens at the earliest. When i was 8 I wanted to be a Power Ranger. When I was 12 I really really wanted to have sex with Rogue from the x-men cartoon in the 90's. Also I thought I would end up being a garbage truck driver because I thought the machinery was cool. People change too much as they grow up far too much to justify putting that weight on a child's mind.

I can relate to you my experience if you want, but mine isn't conventional as it manifested mostly as depersonalization

What is that? What do you mean by depersonalization? I don't think i've heard that term, but you say it's rare even in trans people so I probably missed the term.

 

[Kae]

I appreciate your measured reply.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just really emotional lately.

While that might be possible, the footage in the documentary heavily implies that the boy's trans phase was highly influenced by his mother's insistence. Something that is further highlighted by the mother's obvious regret later on when the boy put his foot down about being a boy.

I don't really see how psychological treatment can do anything for child of that age other than comfort. Something like speaking out feelings resulting in a parent's divorce or death of a close family member or something along those lines. The reason I feel that way is I think it is exceptionally rare for a child to know who they really are with any form of certainty until mid-late teens at the earliest. When i was 8 I wanted to be a Power Ranger. When I was 12 I really really wanted to have sex with Rogue from the x-men cartoon in the 90's. Also I thought I would end up being a garbage truck driver because I thought the machinery was cool. People change too much as they grow up far too much to justify putting that weight on a child's mind.

It's not the same thing, though, like at all, I've mentioned it before, but I'm pretty sure you were always told you were a boy, did you ever question that?
Did it ever feel weird?

Probably not, but you just know that it's wrong, for me it was looking in the mirror and knowing that even if I did look good what I was looking at wasn't me and I didn't really want to be that, other things is that nudity made me extremely uncomfortable to the point where I refused to wear short sleeves and shorts and was basically always covered head to toe, and I lived in a desert for a long time and I'd still go out in a hoodie during summer, because it was so upsetting that I would rather have heatstroke than show my skin, another thing was that I hated being on photos, there are actually very few pictures of me in my parents home and pretty much all the pictures they have are from graduations and I'm not smiling, because I hated being on them so much, like I even learned photography partially to have an excuse to be the one taking photos rather than the one in them.

But yeah, you know something's wrong, not necessarily what but you definitely know something's wrong, to be honest I haven't really mentioned the really weird things, don't think I will to be honest, but it got weird.

What is that? What do you mean by depersonalization? I don't think i've heard that term, but you say it's rare even in trans people so I probably missed the term.

It's a psychological phenomenon or disorder in which you feel separated from reality or your body, often like you're trapped inside a dream or as if you're an outsider observing someone else's life rather than yours, it's pretty bad to be honest, it has way too many symptoms to list but ones I've suffered are the constant nagging feeling that I'm an observer looking from a million miles away, seeing from someone else's body to which my connection is tenuous and could be lost at any moment, having a sensation that all my memories are fake and were implanted there by someone else (Really why I relate to K from Blade Runner 2049 so much), feeling like I'm in a dream even when I'm awake, and a lot of other ones that I'm not comfortable disclosing because it's not a pleasant experience, but I'll say that suicide is fairly common for people with that condition.

I actually made a thread about a nightmare I had which is when it got absolutely unbearable and I had to finally give up and get in contact with a psychologist, as I express the horror no longer knowing if I'm awake or asleep, it should give a pretty good idea of what it is, as you can see that was just barely over a month ago so if I seem really volatile is because I'm not doing well right now, though I'm definitely better than how I was then.

 

[CriticalGaming]

It's a psychological phenomenon or disorder in which you feel separated from reality or your body, often like you're trapped inside a dream or as if you're an outsider observing someone else's life rather than yours, it's pretty bad to be honest, it has way too many symptoms to list but ones I've suffered are the constant nagging feeling that I'm an observer looking from a million miles away, seeing from someone else's body to which my connection is tenuous and could be lost at any moment, having a sensation that all my memories are fake and were implanted there by someone else (Really why I relate to K from Blade Runner 2049 so much), feeling like I'm in a dream even when I'm awake, and a lot of other ones that I'm not comfortable disclosing because it's not a pleasant experience, but I'll say that suicide is fairly common for people with that condition.

I actually made a thread about a nightmare I had which is when it got absolutely unbearable and I had to finally give up and get in contact with a psychologist, as I express the horror no longer knowing if I'm awake or asleep, it should give a pretty good idea of what it is, as you can see that was just barely over a month ago so if I seem really volatile is because I'm not doing well right now, though I'm definitely better than how I was then.

That sounds wild, I'm glad you sought help.

I guess my follow up question to that is how does that equate to being trans? Or is that a separate issue on top of being trans?

It's not the same thing, though, like at all, I've mentioned it before, but I'm pretty sure you were always told you were a boy, did you ever question that?
Did it ever feel weird?

Probably not, but you just know that it's wrong, for me it was looking in the mirror and knowing that even if I did look good what I was looking at wasn't me and I didn't really want to be that, other things is that nudity made me extremely uncomfortable to the point where I refused to wear short sleeves and shorts and was basically always covered head to toe, and I lived in a desert for a long time and I'd still go out in a hoodie during summer, because it was so upsetting that I would rather have heatstroke than show my skin, another thing was that I hated being on photos, there are actually very few pictures of me in my parents home and pretty much all the pictures they have are from graduations and I'm not smiling, because I hated being on them so much, like I even learned photography partially to have an excuse to be the one taking photos rather than the one in them.

But yeah, you know something's wrong, not necessarily what but you definitely know something's wrong, to be honest I haven't really mentioned the really weird things, don't think I will to be honest, but it got weird.

No I can't equate to this at all, nor can I understand it, though I suppose I'm not meant too.

What I can say is that I was never told I was a boy, at least not in the sense that it mattered at all as to how I viewed myself. I always liked boy-things I guess, Ninja Turtles, comics, video games, which I suppose aren't strictly "boy" things, but they usually revolved around violence and being a hero which is something that rarely attracted girls.

There likes to that point brought up as to why those things I mention are "boy" things when girls can like them too. Same thing goes for girly things as well. But I believe there is a biologic pattern that changes the way things hold our attention. Ask my sister, why was she never interested in any of my games, cartoons, or whatever. What made her want to pretend to cook instead. My parents never forced us to do shit, didn't push us into what shows to like or what toys to play with. It just happens.

I don't really have answers to why. But there does seem to be a thought process in all of us that drives the vast majority to one side of the other of the...I'll call it behavior spectrum. And part of it is likely marketing, toy commercials and such, but I only think it's part of it.

What is clear is that this is a mind deal. Because I haven't seen that anyone ever has anything wrong with their body. It grows into whatever it's supposed to grow into, it's the mind that doesn't agree. And through sheer willpower people can live decades of life not only in the wrong body but also the wrong sexual orientation.They get married and even have kids with women and men they aren't fully attracted to. Or maybe they are originally and the disorder gets worse overtime, or some sort of simulius triggers a change like stress.

I don't really know.

Look if the transisition work for you and you are happy Godspeed.

 

[Kae]

That sounds wild, I'm glad you sought help.

I guess my follow up question to that is how does that equate to being trans? Or is that a separate issue on top of being trans?

The connection between it and transgenderism hasn't really been studied all that is known is that it's statistically much more common on trans people, there are way too many things that can cause it, the diagnosis hasn't been finished yet, but it's hard to say, one of the causes is PTSD though, if I had to take a wild guess I'd say since trans people are likely to suffer from PTSD due to changes in one's body that could be the reason why it's more common, but I don't know shit so I wouldn't consider my opinion on this to be a good source, in my case who knows, I've lived through way too many traumatic events that could have given me PTSD though I don't think I have PTSD, there are many things that can cause it, some of which I've experienced or are mental illnesses that my family has a history of, I don't want to guess though, the truth is I don't know.

But yes it's wild, I wouldn't wish it on anyone makes living an existential nightmare.

No I can't equate to this at all, nor can I understand it, though I suppose I'm not meant too.

What I can say is that I was never told I was a boy, at least not in the sense that it mattered at all as to how I viewed myself. I always liked boy-things I guess, Ninja Turtles, comics, video games, which I suppose aren't strictly "boy" things, but they usually revolved around violence and being a hero which is something that rarely attracted girls.

There likes to that point brought up as to why those things I mention are "boy" things when girls can like them too. Same thing goes for girly things as well. But I believe there is a biologic pattern that changes the way things hold our attention. Ask my sister, why was she never interested in any of my games, cartoons, or whatever. What made her want to pretend to cook instead. My parents never forced us to do shit, didn't push us into what shows to like or what toys to play with. It just happens.]

I don't really have answers to why. But there does seem to be a thought process in all of us that drives the vast majority to one side of the other of the...I'll call it behavior spectrum. And part of it is likely marketing, toy commercials and such, but I only think it's part of it.

Marketing definitely is part of it, but most of it is societal pressure, even if you don't know that it's telling you to do it you subconsciously absorb information telling you how you should act, what is "normal" so to speak.

What is clear is that this is a mind deal. Because I haven't seen that anyone ever has anything wrong with their body. It grows into whatever it's supposed to grow into, it's the mind that doesn't agree. And through sheer willpower people can live decades of life not only in the wrong body but also the wrong sexual orientation.They get married and even have kids with women and men they aren't fully attracted to. Or maybe they are originally and the disorder gets worse overtime, or some sort of simulius triggers a change like stress.

Societal pressure is a powerful thing, it can convince you that hell is a good place to live in, I'd explain my case but I don't want to, to be honest.

I don't really know.

Look if the transisition work for you and you are happy Godspeed.

I hope it works, just accepting it has made the insomnia dramatically less severe now that things finally make sense, but I don't know, I've never been anything that isn't miserable so I don't know if it will accomplish that but I guess that as long as I can at least sleep that's good enough., to bring it back a little, understanding how much misery it has caused and considering that I've left the worst parts out because I wouldn't want to talk about that, wouldn't you say it makes sense that I wouldn't want kids to to go through that and I think it should be fine for them to receive the treatment before the weird changes on your body due to puberty happen?

Anyways, I appreciate the sentiment.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Can't have a discussion like this without the irrational side resulting in name calling and labeling.

You've implied numerous times that my gender identity constitutes a mental disorder. You are now referring to me as being on the "irrational side" for some reason, despite the fact that this argument is essentially between the entire scientific establishment and the personal experience of those directly affected by these issues vs you, your completely unearned opinions and a bunch of transphobic and "gender critical" media talking points you intentionally dug out because you went looking for transphobic arguments to support your transphobic position.

I'm not calling you names. This isn't a playground situation. I am accurately describing the way you are behaving. If you have a problem with that, change the way you are behaving. Noone is stopping you.

Again, I normally wouldn't bring this up, because the predictable reaction is to assume you're being personally attacked and play the victim. I'm not telling you this to make you feel bad, that's on you. I'm telling you this to help you avoid the kinds of reactions you're getting, if that's actually something that bothers you. Most people are to some degree transphobic. Heck, I'm pretty sure I'm internally transphobic sometimes. It's a predictable and often involuntary outcome of growing up in a deeply transphobic society. All I'm saying is, if you're going to diagnose people with mental disorders or assume unevidenced failings in their personal lives, that leaves an impression.

Because you can't reasonably defend the arguments presented, especially about the justification for pushing gender transition upon literal children, instead you have to just call the other side prejudice.

I don't need to defend those arguments, because noone is advocating for "pushing gender transition upon literal children". What I think you need to justify is your conviction that children who are already living in role and subject to continuous psychological evaluation should be forcibly detransitioned rather than undergoing a (largely reversible) medical procedure, because that's actually what you're talking about.

 

[Houseman]

You've implied numerous times that my gender identity constitutes a mental disorder

Why do you take that as an insult?

Do you think that being born with a "brain that doesn't match your body" is a perfectly healthy thing?

 

[Terminal Blue]

Why do you take that as an insult?

Why do you take "transphobe" as an insult?

 

[Houseman]

Why do you take "transphobe" as an insult?

See, you didn't answer the question. That only gives credence to the notion that you're not engaging in good faith and with rationality.

"Transphobe" is an insult because it suggests that one is scared of, or has an irrational fear of, either transgender people or the idea of such people. This is a made-up word in order to imitate actual anxiety disorders with the suffix -phobia like arachnophobia.

You have no good reason to believe that anyone here has an anxiety disorder about this. You're dismissing arguments and viewpoints you disagree with by claiming that they are the product of an irrational fear. You are attacking the person, not the argument. You're also devaluating actual anxiety disorders by casually tossing around the -phobia prefix.

That's why it's an insult.


So now that I have indulged you, are you going to answer the question?

 

[Thaluikhain]

That only gives credence to the notion that you're not engaging in good faith and with rationality.

I came close to literally laughing out loud at you there.

 

[Trunkage]

Why do you take that as an insult?

Do you think that being born with a "brain that doesn't match your body" is a perfectly healthy thing?

What makes you think its a mind problem and not a body problem?

 

[Terminal Blue]

See, you didn't answer the question. That only gives credence to the notion that you're not engaging in good faith and with rationality.

It was a rhetorical question. The point was to show you how to come to the conclusion yourself. Let's see how you did.

"Transphobe" is an insult because it suggests that one is scared of, or has an irrational fear of, either transgender people or the idea of such people. This is a made-up word in order to imitate actual anxiety disorders with the suffix -phobia like arachnophobia.

Pretty close.

Telling someone they have a mental disorder because they disagree with you, or because they have a different perception to you, is a way of undermining their perceived ability to form universal observations or judgements. What you are saying is that their perception of reality is warped, so any arguments they make can merely be dismissed. Accusing someone of having a mental disorder as a rhetorical strategy is seldom a good thing, but it's particularly bad when you're talking to people who, historically, would have been sent to insane asylums or subject to unwanted, humiliating and often fatal medical treatments.

All words are made up words. We made up the word "transphobia" because it accurately describes people who exhibit seemingly irrational hostility or aggression towards people or ideas which are both normal and harmless to them. Again, the reason you don't like this word is because it attacks the idea that your position is a reasonable and objective one, as opposed to the limited, subjective observations that I could make from within my disordered (irrational) perspective.

You have no good reason to believe that anyone here has an anxiety disorder about this.

No. But I have good reason to believe that some of you are irrationally hostile towards trans and non-binary people, because you're describing us as mentally ill and reacting with horror at the thought that some of us might be children.

Most arachnophobic people do not have an anxiety disorder.

You're dismissing arguments and viewpoints you disagree with by claiming that they are the product of an irrational fear.

See, you did get there on your own.

 

[Buyetyen]

I don't need to defend those arguments, because noone is advocating for "pushing gender transition upon literal children". What I think you need to justify is your conviction that children who are already living in role and subject to continuous psychological evaluation should be forcibly detransitioned rather than undergoing a (largely reversible) medical procedure, because that's actually what you're talking about.

This. This is at the heart of the issue, Critical. You have this distorted view of what is actually going on, and when people tell you that's not the case, you play the victim card and whine about how irrational everyone is for not accepting your incorrect ideas about trans people.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Why do you take "transphobe" as an insult?

I don't really take it as an insult. I take it as a breakdown of discussion, because it is usually thrown out at people who are trying to work out a rationality and reason yet no such thing is present on one side.

You have no rational defense, so you just throw out "transphobic" as a way of basically saying "because i said so" and escape having to answer any questions or defend criticism and even sometimes just defending factual evidence.

It doesn't mean that rational reasoning doesn't exist. Because @Kae came forward and presented a very reasonable world view from their perspective and even admitted using therapy to work through at lot of what was going on with them. Which I understand and admire.

You however, have not.

I don't need to defend those arguments, because noone is advocating for "pushing gender transition upon literal children". What I think you need to justify is your conviction that children who are already living in role and subject to continuous psychological evaluation should be forcibly detransitioned rather than undergoing a (largely reversible) medical procedure, because that's actually what you're talking about.

Do you have scientific sources showing that puberty blocking, and hormone therapy in young people is "largely reversible"? Or do I have to go try and find my own research again, as I've done multiple times already here. What about post op transition? Is that reversible? Even let's say not even full gender reassignment, how about the chest surgeries in women who become men and have their breast tissue removed, is that reversible. And if being trans in just becoming your true self in MIND and body, then why would anyone ever need to worry about it being reversible in the first place?

You have this distorted view of what is actually going on, and when people tell you that's not the case, you play the victim card and whine about how irrational everyone is for not accepting your incorrect ideas about trans people.

If my ideas are incorrect, prove me wrong. Correct my distortion. Show me articles, and studies proving contrary to what I've found. I'm open to having my mind changed. The problem for you and Terminal is that you both just want people to take your word for it without you having to back up anything you claim with any factual sources. Meanwhile, I have so...Shrug.

 

[Buyetyen]

If my ideas are incorrect, prove me wrong. Correct my distortion. Show me articles, and studies proving contrary to what I've found. I'm open to having my mind changed. The problem for you and Terminal is that you both just want people to take your word for it without you having to back up anything you claim with any factual sources. Meanwhile, I have so...Shrug.

So it's our fault you only ever search for things that tell you what you want to hear and make shit up, got it.

The ways in which you are wrong about the science have been explained to you, but you keep pushing your dishonest "WHAT ABOUT DA CHILRENZ" narrative. It's been explained to you why your fears are unfounded, but you insist that because some nosy busybody at the Federalist has a hair up his ass about trans people, this must mean that something nefarious is afoot. You seem totally oblivious to how paranoid and irrational you sound, demanding that the modern scientific consensus must be wrong because you got your knickers in a twist over some anti-trans propaganda.

 

[happyninja42]

It's a psychological phenomenon or disorder in which you feel separated from reality or your body, often like you're trapped inside a dream or as if you're an outsider observing someone else's life rather than yours, it's pretty bad to be honest, it has way too many symptoms to list but ones I've suffered are the constant nagging feeling that I'm an observer looking from a million miles away, seeing from someone else's body to which my connection is tenuous and could be lost at any moment, having a sensation that all my memories are fake and were implanted there by someone else (Really why I relate to K from Blade Runner 2049 so much), feeling like I'm in a dream even when I'm awake, and a lot of other ones that I'm not comfortable disclosing because it's not a pleasant experience, but I'll say that suicide is fairly common for people with that condition.

I actually made a thread about a nightmare I had which is when it got absolutely unbearable and I had to finally give up and get in contact with a psychologist, as I express the horror no longer knowing if I'm awake or asleep, it should give a pretty good idea of what it is, as you can see that was just barely over a month ago so if I seem really volatile is because I'm not doing well right now, though I'm definitely better than how I was then.

What you described sounds a lot like something I have from time to time, though nowhere near as bad it seems. I've always called is disassociation, because I feel like I've been disassociated with what's going on around me, but given DID is an actual thing, that's probably wrong. I will sometimes, when I'm talking to another person, just feel like I'm not actually there in that moment, experiencing that conversation. Like I'm either hallucinating the person in front of me, or that I'm sort of dreaming. My brain just sort of flips a switch, and for a few brief moments, it's telling me "you're not really standing here in this room, talking to Joe McDudeson, who is sitting in that chair looking at you. The words coming out of his mouth are not actually words, but a figment of your imagination. You have fabricated this entire moment." It only lasts for a few seconds, and usually if I physically move myself to a new location, blink or shake my head, it clears it. I also will take time to remind my brain "ok but, why? Why would I fabricate such a dull, mundane conversation with someone I don't really like or am just casual acquaintances with? I've got a MUCH more creative of an imagination than that! I could be fabricating all sorts of cool things!" Then it clears up.

I'm curious, but does your effect tend to trigger with other people? Or do you have episodes when you are say, alone in a room? Because I can't personally recall a case for myself, where it happened, that didn't involve another person as a trigger point.

 

[Houseman]

Telling someone they have a mental disorder because they disagree with you, or because they have a different perception to you

People have been laying out the reasons why they consider it to be a disorder, and instead of acknowledging those reasons and explaining why you disagree, you just call people transphobes.

What you are saying is that their perception of reality is warped, so any arguments they make can merely be dismissed.

I will consider this the answer to my question.

This is merely an assumption on your part. Nobody is saying "lol they have a mental disorder so nothing they say can be trusted".

You're just scared that this is what will happen.

Trust me, nobody will do this. I'm pretty sure everyone recognizes that disorders do not necessarily impact the entirety of your intellectual processes. And if they do, I'll stand up to them with you.

For example, autism. I'm sure there are several people on these forms that are on the spectrum. Everyone agrees that this is a disorder. So you see anyone here saying "You're autistic so what you have to say doesn't count. Nothing you say can be trusted."

No, of course not, nobody says that. If people think that, then they are wrong.

Not all mental disorders make you insane, give you hallucinations, make you hear voices, or turn you into a pathological liar. This is, like, the 1950s public understanding of mental illness.

So, in conclusion, you're scared of it being called a disorder, not because you have sound arguments against it, but because you're scared that people will use that to discredit everything you say, and you shouldn't be.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Do you have scientific sources showing that puberty blocking, and hormone therapy in young people is "largely reversible"? Or do I have to go try and find my own research again, as I've done multiple times already here. What about post op transition? Is that reversible? Even let's say not even full gender reassignment, how about the chest surgeries in women who become men and have their breast tissue removed, is that reversible. And if being trans in just becoming your true self in MIND and body, then why would anyone ever need to worry about it being reversible in the first place?

Puberty blockers are reversible by simply stopping the treatement - they aren't 'one use = puberty is forever gone'. They're meant as a pause button for the teen to figure themselves out and if they actually are trans or not. Hormone therapy is more invassive, but that only gets started once concrete decisions are made by the child and the parents, after I'm sure a substantial evaluation. There aren't ready-made transition kits that they just douse kids with, instantly ripping away their puberty.

And yes, there are side effects in some cases, as there is with nearly all medicine. Medical science isn't magic. And I doubt you're of the opinion that children/teens should be kept away from medical science, because risks exist. If a teen has an enormous, benign growth covering half their face that causes them no physical ailment, but extreme psychological and physical distress, would you want to refrain them from undergoing surgery that might risk the teen's death, because they're still a child and don't know any better yet? Or would you allow them to make that call due to how much it impacts their psychological - and as a result physical - health? And if you do agree with a child's choice in this much more extreme case (risk of death), why not in a case that involves a child/teen being trans? And being trans can't be removed by therapy anymore than a physical deformity can.

Unless you're claiming a teen repeatedly expressing that they are trans is just them going through a phase or being influenced by the trans community, which I hope isn't the case. People used to (and some undoubtedly still do) claim that gay people being around children would adversely influence those kids to become gay as well, and it's just as stupid of a claim to make about trans people.

And you mentioned the mom and son in that HBO documentary, but that doesn't really prove your point, since it's a clear example of a child NOT being forced to transition. The child liked wearing dresses (or whatever girly behavior he was apparently displaying), but stopped. End of story. Unless this documentary actually showed the boy getting strapped to a table with hormone therapy forced upon him against his will, while his mother screamed in terror behind a glass wall.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Again how are you a man, how do you know?

If you woke up in the body of a woman, would you be comfortable with that and now be a woman even if your thoughts and memories remain as they are right now?

Like, honestly the same questions your asking as to how anyone knows they're trans I extend to cis people, HOW?!
And if we're talking about subservience to what people say, aren't you making that same argument?
Aren't you just telling people what they are without leaving them a choice?
Couldn't it be argued that the brainwashing is actually being done by cis-normativity?

What sets your argument appart from mine?
I don't understand.


So why does it matter what genitals someone has?

Like I realise that part of it is that I have never understood the appeal of sex or why people like it or crave it, like even after engaging in it voluntarily I still don't get it, but I very much fail to understand why the genitalia one possesses should be important to any degree when determining how one has to act, dress or generally present themselves, why are genitals important?

Do you see gender as a social construct?