2022 French Presidential Election

[Bedinsis]

Marine Le Pen says she opposes sanctions on Russian gas

The French presidential candidate says she is in favour of sanctions on Russia - except for energy.

www.bbc.com

Okay Le Pen, I understand you are excited at the chance of being president, but how is this going to help you win? I'm not complaining because I want you to lose but you think you could have read the room before revealing you're just a Russian puppet.

The Yellow Vest protests came about due to the people of France finding fuel prices too high. In other words, as much as I consider Russia's attack on Ukraine unjustified and support actions that harm their ability to wage war, it's entirely possible that Le Pen IS reading the room.

 

[Generals]

Considering both of those would likely lead to the downfall of the EU and thus the continent it wouldn't be very great at all.

Oh i agree, and I am glad there is at least one "ok" choice. It was more of a "this would have been fun in a very wrong way" kind of thing. It's a bit like a Donald Trump presidency. Would have been fun... if he had been president of a tiny micro country without any influence on the world.

 

[Kwak]

Oh sorry, forgot to add that I mean Macron. I'm not French so it won't matter anyways.

Still a massively offensive thing to say.

 

[Silvanus]

Between who? Him and Le Pen? They are both Europhobes so that could make sense.

Between Melenchon and Macron. Euro-scepticism is pretty much the sole thing Melenchon and Le Pen have in common; everything else on Melenchon's manifesto is diametrically opposed.

 

[Generals]

Between Melenchon and Macron. Euro-scepticism is pretty much the sole thing Melenchon and Le Pen have in common; everything else on Melenchon's manifesto is diametrically opposed.

That's not entirely true, Melenchon is economically closer to Le Pen than Macron. According to a poll 34% of Melenchon's voters say they will vote for Macron and 30% for Le Pen (the rest was either undecided or will vote blank). That's not a big difference...

 

[Seanchaidh]

Marine Le Pen says she opposes sanctions on Russian gas

The French presidential candidate says she is in favour of sanctions on Russia - except for energy.

www.bbc.com

Okay Le Pen, I understand you are excited at the chance of being president, but how is this going to help you win? I'm not complaining because I want you to lose but you think you could have read the room before revealing you're just a Russian puppet.

You might consider that natural gas has value in use.

 

[Silvanus]

That's not entirely true, Melenchon is economically closer to Le Pen than Macron. According to a poll 34% of Melenchon's voters say they will vote for Macron and 30% for Le Pen (the rest was either undecided or will vote blank). That's not a big difference...

Not sure how you're judging that... Melenchon favours an expanded welfare state, redistributive tax, labour rights, public ownership, easier legal routes for immigration etc. All stuff Le Pen would loath.

I suppose Le Pen favours nationalising a few things. But she also favours privatising others. She's essentially a welfare/economic chauvinist.

I suspect a large potion of Melenchon voters might move to Le Pen because opposition to neoliberalism is a primary motivator. But still, more will vote for Macron/stay home than for Le Pen. And Melenchon himself has been explicit.

 

[Agema]

I suppose Le Pen favours nationalising a few things. But she also favours privatising others. She's essentially a welfare/economic chauvinist.

RN, and as its forerunner FN, is a populist, far right party. It has never had any particular economic ideology, having wandered around from near-libertarianism to mixed economy as suited it at the time.

Obviously, like most right wing parties, it knows that it's bread is really buttered by capitalists. Currently however, as it's aiming heavily at disaffected lower-income people often in postindustrial areas, it's pumping some flashy worker-friendly stuff. Whether any of that would survive them taking office is another matter, because I think it's far more likely they'd pull a Putin/Orban and just rig the political and media environment instead.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

The Yellow Vest protests came about due to the people of France finding fuel prices too high. In other words, as much as I consider Russia's attack on Ukraine unjustified and support actions that harm their ability to wage war, it's entirely possible that Le Pen IS reading the room.

Populists are beloved by people whose view of the world extends as far as the price at the gas pump and no further.

 

[Trunkage]

Oh i agree, and I am glad there is at least one "ok" choice. It was more of a "this would have been fun in a very wrong way" kind of thing. It's a bit like a Donald Trump presidency. Would have been fun... if he had been president of a tiny micro country without any influence on the world.

I think there is a difference between a progressive trying to tone down rhetoric so all Muslims wont get attacked because of the Taliban as opposed to saying that the Taliban is good

As to Trump getting a micronation.... Belarus? Turkmenistan? I don't find them particularly funny

 

[Generals]

I think there is a difference between a progressive trying to tone down rhetoric so all Muslims wont get attacked because of the Taliban as opposed to saying that the Taliban is good

If you're referring to Melenchon, no, just no. People like him are not "progressive", they are "neo progressive". They pretend to be progressive but are actually regressive in every way. Defending racist, sexist and homophobic (ultra) conservative islam from all criticism is not "progressive". It's abandoning entire areas to regressive ideologies were different rules apply than in the rest of the Republic.

And it's not muslims who get decapitated because they show a cartoon of Jesus in France.

As to Trump getting a micronation.... Belarus? Turkmenistan? I don't find them particularly funny

Belarus and Turkmenistan are neither micro nations nor are they ruled by actual "presidents". (Even if they may call themselves that way we all know they are dictators)
And if you think Trump is on par with Lukachenko or Berdimuhamedow you either overestimate Trump or underestimate these two dictators. Trump was an incompetent clown who barely did anything meaningful because he was kept in check by the legislative branch. The only meaningful things he did was making allies angry and implementing a typical republican agenda domestically.

 

[Generals]

Not sure how you're judging that... Melenchon favours an expanded welfare state, redistributive tax, labour rights, public ownership, easier legal routes for immigration etc. All stuff Le Pen would loath.

I suppose Le Pen favours nationalising a few things. But she also favours privatising others. She's essentially a welfare/economic chauvinist.

I suspect a large potion of Melenchon voters might move to Le Pen because opposition to neoliberalism is a primary motivator. But still, more will vote for Macron/stay home than for Le Pen. And Melenchon himself has been explicit.

Présidentielle : 66 % des propositions économiques de Marine Le Pen ont une forte connotation sociale, relève une étude du Cevipof - Public Sénat

Une étude du Cevipof a comparé le programme économique et social de Marine Le Pen avec celui Éric Zemmour. La candidate a misé très tôt des mesures de redistribution et de protection sociale. Contrairement à Éric Zemmour plus attaché aux marqueurs de droite du libéralisme.

www.publicsenat.fr

66% of Marine Le Pen's economic plans have a "social" orientation.

But more specifically there is the pension age at 60 and increase in minimum pension that comes to mind.
Reducing VAT on basic necessity goods to 0% and VAT on energy to 5.5% (which mainly benefits lower income households).
Nationalising the highways.

The problem with Le Pen's program is that it is "unfinanced" while Melenchon will happily say he will take money from companies and the wealthy to finance his program. But Le Pen's program is very generous towards the working classes through it's improved pensions and tax reductions.

RN, and as its forerunner FN, is a populist, far right party. It has never had any particular economic ideology, having wandered around from near-libertarianism to mixed economy as suited it at the time.

Obviously, like most right wing parties, it knows that it's bread is really buttered by capitalists. Currently however, as it's aiming heavily at disaffected lower-income people often in postindustrial areas, it's pumping some flashy worker-friendly stuff. Whether any of that would survive them taking office is another matter, because I think it's far more likely they'd pull a Putin/Orban and just rig the political and media environment instead.

It actually had a more liberal (economically) ideology which shifted when Marine took over. But as we all know the economic agenda is just secondary for such a party.
I'd be more afraid of "La République, c'est moi" Melenchon pulling a Putin/Orban.

 

[Thaluikhain]

As to Trump getting a micronation.... Belarus? Turkmenistan? I don't find them particularly funny

Yeah...though if he tried for Minerva and got chased off personally by the King of Tonga, that's all good.

 

[Silvanus]

It actually had a more liberal (economically) ideology which shifted when Marine took over. But as we all know the economic agenda is just secondary for such a party.
I'd be more afraid of "La République, c'est moi" Melenchon pulling a Putin/Orban.

Why? Melenchon hasn't expressed repressive authoritarian inclinations, as Le Pen has. He's consistently been about redistribution, taxing the rich/corporations, expanding labour rights and welcoming immigration. All of which is the complete opposite of Orban and Putin, who're essentially bigots and corporatists.

 

[Generals]

Why? Melenchon hasn't expressed repressive authoritarian inclinations, as Le Pen has. He's consistently been about redistribution, taxing the rich/corporations, expanding labour rights and welcoming immigration. All of which is the complete opposite of Orban and Putin, who're essentially bigots and corporatists.

Because populist lefties do not ever become dictators, amiright?
Melenchon is an extremely toxic and arrogant person who thinks he is above the law, that's why. His own phrase "La République, c'est moi" describes his personality quite well. None of his far left populism change that and it is that mentality which pushes leaders to pull an Orban/Putin in the way Agema described it: "just rig the political and media environment instead".

 

[Agema]

Why? Melenchon hasn't expressed repressive authoritarian inclinations, as Le Pen has. He's consistently been about redistribution, taxing the rich/corporations, expanding labour rights and welcoming immigration. All of which is the complete opposite of Orban and Putin, who're essentially bigots and corporatists.

True, but Melenchon is a populist leader, and part of the mindset of populist leaders is frequently a form of self-importance or self-regard even to the point of a messiah complex, such that they can be, or become, quite dictatorial. Some, it seems to me, take the stance that they represent the people, only they can represent the people, and anything that gets in their way - including laws, governmental procedure, etc. - can be kicked out of the way because it is an affront to the will of the people.

I do not say Melenchon is this kind of person because I don't know him well enough. He is often claimed to throw his weight around in ways and make a lot of his party and politics about him - but then authoritarianism is an easy jibe for critics to throw at a populist.

 

[Silvanus]

Because populist lefties do not ever become dictators, amiright?

So you're just assuming he will because he's a "populist lefty"? Not based on any actual... you know, policies?

Melenchon is an extremely toxic and arrogant person who thinks he is above the law, that's why. His own phrase "La République, c'est moi" describes his personality quite well. None of his far left populism change that and it is that mentality which pushes leaders to pull an Orban/Putin in the way Agema described it: "just rig the political and media environment instead".

OK but you've literally just put forward a slogan and interpreted it in an extreme, obviously unintended way. You've not actually got anything substantial: actions, policies.

 

[Generals]

So you're just assuming he will because he's a "populist lefty"? Not based on any actual... you know, policies?

OK but you've literally just put forward a slogan and interpreted it in an extreme, obviously unintended way. You've not actually got anything substantial: actions, policies.

Le Pen has never said she would rig the political and media environment either. I doubt Putin said it before his first election either.
And what repressive inclination would we be talking about? Questioning the current way justice deals with violent crime does not make a politician an anti-democrat. Program wise there is no reason to believe any French candidate would have harmed the democratic institutions in any way.

So all we can go on with is their personalities and on that aspect Melenchon is by far the worst of them all. He has shown his blatant disregard towards French justice and law enforcement when they were investigating his party (just like other parties/politicians have been investigated for financial affairs in France). "La République, C'est Moi" is not a slogan, this was his reaction towards police officers carrying out a search warrant at LFI's HQ. He and other party members have shown just how superior they feel towards those who are not "elected".
Quite ironically when he complained about this "witch hunt" in the parliament guess who applauded? Le Pen and other members of the RN. (who have also been investigated in the past)

Melenchon is also the person who said it wouldn't surprise him if during the next election (this one) at one week of the vote there would be a "serious incident or murder" and that the "serious event" would be used to point fingers at muslims. Basically implying terrorist attacks are orchestrated for political gains. How can a person who believes in such deep state conspiracy bullshit respect the French institutions? He doesn't and his character makes it quite clear with what he wants to replace the insitutions; himself.

 

[Silvanus]

Le Pen has never said she would rig the political and media environment either. I doubt Putin said it before his first election either.
And what repressive inclination would we be talking about? Questioning the current way justice deals with violent crime does not make a politician an anti-democrat. Program wise there is no reason to believe any French candidate would have harmed the democratic institutions in any way.

I didn't say she was an anti-democrat, but that she was repressive and authoritarian. The death penalty, ratcheting up deportations, a moratorium on migration, and focusing policy on targeting a specific religion to pander to right-wing prejudices is all repressive bullshit.

So all we can go on with is their personalities and on that aspect Melenchon is by far the worst of them all. He has shown his blatant disregard towards French justice and law enforcement when they were investigating his party (just like other parties/politicians have been investigated for financial affairs in France). "La République, C'est Moi" is not a slogan, this was his reaction towards police officers carrying out a search warrant at LFI's HQ. He and other party members have shown just how superior they feel towards those who are not "elected".
Quite ironically when he complained about this "witch hunt" in the parliament guess who applauded? Le Pen and other members of the RN. (who have also been investigated in the past)

Melenchon is also the person who said it wouldn't surprise him if during the next election (this one) at one week of the vote there would be a "serious incident or murder" and that the "serious event" would be used to point fingers at muslims. Basically implying terrorist attacks are orchestrated for political gains. How can a person who believes in such deep state conspiracy bullshit respect the French institutions? He doesn't and his character makes it quite clear with what he wants to replace the insitutions; himself.

You've again interpreted the statement in a rather presumptuous way. That statement doesn't necessarily imply attacks are orchestrated; just that they get exploited to push certain agendas when they do happen. Which is true.

His personality is bullish, but frankly no more so than the norm for European leaders. Its more tame than a large number of British, French and Italian premiers.

 

[Generals]

I didn't say she was an anti-democrat, but that she was repressive and authoritarian. The death penalty, ratcheting up deportations, a moratorium on migration, and focusing policy on targeting a specific religion to pander to right-wing prejudices is all repressive bullshit.

Yes, that's true. But I was arguing that Melenchon has dictatorial tendencies and that said dictatorial tendencies is not exclusive to far right populists

You've again interpreted the statement in a rather presumptuous way. That statement doesn't necessarily imply attacks are orchestrated; just that they get exploited to push certain agendas when they do happen. Which is true.

His personality is bullish, but frankly no more so than the norm for European leaders. Its more tame than a large number of British, French and Italian premiers.

I and everyone else than. I must apologize if his intent didn't get over well in my translation as I am not a professional translator and it is not easy to get the tone of a statement across quite accurately when translating one language to another. (his conspiracy nonsense starts at 1:06)


He clearly said that France would face a grave incident the week before the votes and than mentions a whole bunch of incidents which occurred in the past before elections. He says, without yet mentioning how the act will be used politically, "This is all written in advance". And than later on mentions how politicians will use this serious incident he predicts will happen.

You should stop trying to defend this toxic populist clown.