Here's the thing. I grew up in California. And in California really drunk women are not legally able to consent. So what you described in my home state is legally rape. And rape/sexual assault is not okay.
Now, considering the abysmal way we deal with rape and sexual assault in our legal system, there is probably no way this would be prosecuted so the jerk guy is probably safe from rape charges...but being able to get away with a bad thing doesn't make it okay.
People on the board are saying things like "It is her fault"--"She shouldn't have been drinking"--"They are both to blame"--etc.
That is just victim blaming and propagating rape culture.
Don't have sex with people unless they actively and specifically and clearly consent with the word "Yes" to each escalation of the sex act. If we can get it through people's minds that consent is not just the lack of a "no," it is the presence of a "yes"--an uncoerced and honestly attained "yes."
Don't have sex with drunk people even it they "consent."
Don't have sex with sleeping people, even if they consented to sex in the past.
Don't have sex with passed out people.
I've known people who've been actually raped, I know how terribly it can affect their lives.. both "date rape" and physical forced rape. I've also known a number who have been sexually assaulted in other ways. Hell, even I was once "hit on" to the extent that I could have easily claimed assault.. and that resulted in me being kicked out of a club for protesting it.. so I know full well the extent of how these things can affect people.
However, there are certain circumstances where people are to blame for their own actions.. and being voluntarily drunk and not actually incapable should be one of them.
Take the same woman who is claiming to have been raped, and instead of her having sex while drunk.. she drove and killed someone... she is responsible for those actions.
We cannot, should not, say in one breath. "You are responsible for, and capable of taking responsibility for, this preventable action" and in the same say "you are not responsible, and are incapable of, preventing this action".
Either people are held responsible of their actions while under the influence of alcohol, or they are not.
Gotta agree with you man the girl should have known better than to get that drunk esspecially if thats how she reacts to alcohol and the guy shouldn't be taking advantage of the fact she isn't thinking straight.
No really. Elaborate please. I'm not being sarcastic. I really am curious why you disagree. Women would not take advantage of men like that. Not in the same way. The situation may be similar on the surface, but I can't think of a single woman I know that if they had a dick and could get guys pregnant and knew that they could just take off never to be seen again, that would have this little respect. The truth is the reverse situation is simply not possible.
I'm really not trying to. I have had lots of interactions with males and i continue to. I know everyone is different, It's just there is something about male sexuality that is different from women in a major way. That's a fact. you don't hear of many male joggers being dragged off and raped do you? I'm not trying to say this situation is at all like that, I'm just trying to make a point that there is something got male sexuality that can get very dark in some and you don't see it very often in women comparatively (I know sometimes you do I'm speaking in general). I mean there's a reason every good dad warns her daughter about how guys are. This is a taking advantage situation in my eyes and i feel like male sexuality and culture in some is more likely to allow for this to be okay for them. I'm quite open to intelligent debate on this topic.
If a guy gets drunk and loses his phone or gets in a fight, people will tell him it's his own fault for getting too wasted to look after himself ( note i can say from personal experience getting your head kicked in by gypsies and being deaf in one ear for a month because you were drunk and an easy target will make you a more responsible drinker). However if a chick gets drunk and has sex with someone (and saying nothing and looking like you're enjoying it is exactly the same as saying yes, because lets face it how often do you stop half way through foreplay and ask "So are you officially consenting to have sex with me ?") it's completely the guy's fault for "taking advantage of her". She took advantage of herself when she got in that state, and it's NOT the same as if she was actually passed out. Also, what the hell was she even doing there without her "serious" boyfriend ?
I'm not saying I find his behaviour gallant and honorable, but I do find it completely normal and pretty much inevitable under the circumstances - think of all the kids that would never have been born if it wasn't for drunken sex.
No really. Elaborate please. I'm not being sarcastic. I really am curious why you disagree. Women would not take advantage of men like that. Not in the same way. The situation may be similar on the surface, but I can't think of a single woman I know that if they had a dick and could get guys pregnant and knew that they could just take off never to be seen again, that would have this little respect. The truth is the reverse situation is simply not possible.
Dude, I've had women buy me non-stop drinks, get me drunk, then take me back to their place and shag me something awful. Women are just as capable of taking advantage of men as the other way around.
Seriously, how many women/girls have said "Yes, I am on birth control."
The only thing the guy is screwed up about is not using a condom. Your girl friend asking him to wear one pretty much spoke to her intentions and since she never once said no, it isn't rape. I think you need to face the fact that your girl friend isn't happy with the relationship. The only redeeming thing that can come of this is for you to move on. Talking about it on the Internet isn't going to cast it in a better light.
I know scales suck, please explain yourself if you reply. On a scale of 1 to 10 where 1 is 'extremely sweet and respectful towards women' and 10 is 'this guy would have fucked her if she was passed out', how bad and/or normal is this guys mindset?
On that scale, I'm a 1. Taking advantage of somebody just because they're drunk -- even if their a goddamn idiot for letting themselves be that drunk in the first place -- is so far outside of anything I'm even remotely willing to consider.
Is what you described normal, though? Honestly, amongst the "frat boy" crowd, I'd say yes. Yes, it is. Amongst decent people? Not at all, but the world is filled with assholes. It gets better as you get older -- or at least the crowds separate a bit more.
Like you said, this clearly affects you deeply. I don't believe that drinking excuses somebody's behavior; if anything, I find people tend to be a little more honest, if somewhat exaggerated, while under the influence. That question for you is whether or not you're inclined to forgive her and that's entirely up to you.
Personally, I don't know if I'd be able to, but it's all on you and how you care about her, so don't let anybody else influence your decision there. You go with what you feel is the right thing to do.
I'm genuinely sorry this happened to you. I know it would devastate me if it happened to me.
Edit: I should point out that I agree with other posters that, if she didn't say no, that she's a willing participant. Unless she was completely incognizant, there is no gray area; it's a "yes" or a "no."
personally I would agree with you on this one. As a general rule anything that someone would do while piss drunk is something that they would absolutely not do under normal circumstances so denying them should cause them to thank you tomorrow. It's worse that he came on to her not the other way around. Of course if he was also drunk it's not really his fault either.
Here's the thing. I grew up in California. And in California really drunk women are not legally able to consent. So what you described in my home state is legally rape. And rape/sexual assault is not okay.
Now, considering the abysmal way we deal with rape and sexual assault in our legal system, there is probably no way this would be prosecuted so the jerk guy is probably safe from rape charges...but being able to get away with a bad thing doesn't make it okay.
People on the board are saying things like "It is her fault"--"She shouldn't have been drinking"--"They are both to blame"--etc.
That is just victim blaming and propagating rape culture.
Don't have sex with people unless they actively and specifically and clearly consent with the word "Yes" to each escalation of the sex act. If we can get it through people's minds that consent is not just the lack of a "no," it is the presence of a "yes"--an uncoerced and honestly attained "yes."
Don't have sex with drunk people even it they "consent."
Don't have sex with sleeping people, even if they consented to sex in the past.
Don't have sex with passed out people.
I've known people who've been actually raped, I know how terribly it can affect their lives.. both "date rape" and physical forced rape. I've also known a number who have been sexually assaulted in other ways. Hell, even I was once "hit on" to the extent that I could have easily claimed assault.. and that resulted in me being kicked out of a club for protesting it.. so I know full well the extent of how these things can affect people.
However, there are certain circumstances where people are to blame for their own actions.. and being voluntarily drunk and not actually incapable should be one of them.
Take the same woman who is claiming to have been raped, and instead of her having sex while drunk.. she drove and killed someone... she is responsible for those actions.
We cannot, should not, say in one breath. "You are responsible for, and capable of taking responsibility for, this preventable action" and in the same say "you are not responsible, and are incapable of, preventing this action".
Either people are held responsible of their actions while under the influence of alcohol, or they are not.
The analogy of the drunk driver doesn't hold up. The other person in this case does not say to themselves "Aha, a drunk woman. I can take advantage of her drunkeness and get myself run over".
The person who chooses to have sex with a drunk woman who otherwise would not do so has made a choice.
Yes, this doesn't really work in the case of both people being drunk (or someone trying to get run over).
I'm really not trying to. I have had lots of interactions with males and i continue to. I know everyone is different, It's just there is something about male sexuality that is different from women in a major way. That's a fact. you don't hear of many male joggers being dragged off and raped do you? I'm not trying to say this situation is at all like that, I'm just trying to make a point that there is something got male sexuality that can get very dark in some and you don't see it very often in women comparatively (I know sometimes you do I'm speaking in general). I mean there's a reason every good dad warns her daughter about how guys are. This is a taking advantage situation in my eyes and i feel like male sexuality and culture in some is more likely to allow for this to be okay for them. I'm quite open to intelligent debate on this topic.
Yeah Im sorry you are a little misandrist- there's a rather disturbing conclusion that can be reached from following your reasoning to its conclusion, do you really believe all men are potential rapists? That only men become sex offenders?
And no we're not condoning that sort of behaviour- the bloke in your story is an absolute creep, but then your girlfriend was still capable of saying no.
Women sleeping with men for their money...which goes hand in hand with men paying women for sex...if part of the patriarchal system we are living in...a system wherein women don't get paid as much as men, where women are valued most for their sexuality, where men are valued for how much money they earn. In a society where men and women are truly equal, women wouldn't be encouraged to sleep when men for money, nor men to prove they are powerful men by giving women money for sex.
The analogy of the drunk driver doesn't hold up. The other person in this case does not say to themselves "Aha, a drunk woman. I can take advantage of her drunkeness and get myself run over".
The person who chooses to have sex with a drunk woman who otherwise would not do so has made a choice.
Yes, this doesn't really work in the case of both people being drunk (or someone trying to get run over).
My point is more that, as a society, we seem to hold people responsible for their actions only when they are the "guilty" party, not when we deem them the "victim". This is especially true when alcohol is involved.
I believe every individual is responsible, all the time, for their own actions unless they are actually incapable of being so. There are a variety of ways that I will agree someone will be incapable of being responsible, however just being drunk is not one of them.
I agree with you, for the record, everyone has a responsibility for them selves when they choose to get plastered, but i am curious about one thing. You seem a little pissed that it is 'up to the man to do the right thing'. It makes it sound very much like you are saying you would be pissed to have to do the right thing. Do you think you should be able someone should be able to do whatever dick thing you want until someone stops you?
Sure, I completely agree both parties are responsible for themselves here and are at fault. But if you were the guy and this happened would you feel bad the next day for having been a dick? Would you wish you had done the right thing and be upset at yourself? Or would you just have a piece of toast and think about how that drunk girl let you do everything last night? I'm not saying you would be evil, obviously she is responsible for herself. I'm legitimately just curious.
No really. Elaborate please. I'm not being sarcastic. I really am curious why you disagree. Women would not take advantage of men like that. Not in the same way. The situation may be similar on the surface, but I can't think of a single woman I know that if they had a dick and could get guys pregnant and knew that they could just take off never to be seen again, that would have this little respect. The truth is the reverse situation is simply not possible.
I'm really not trying to. I have had lots of interactions with males and i continue to. I know everyone is different, It's just there is something about male sexuality that is different from women in a major way. That's a fact. you don't hear of many male joggers being dragged off and raped do you? I'm not trying to say this situation is at all like that, I'm just trying to make a point that there is something got male sexuality that can get very dark in some and you don't see it very often in women comparatively (I know sometimes you do I'm speaking in general). I mean there's a reason every good dad warns her daughter about how guys are. This is a taking advantage situation in my eyes and i feel like male sexuality and culture in some is more likely to allow for this to be okay for them. I'm quite open to intelligent debate on this topic.
Fair enough, but the difference is those guys are sober and with these women over a long period of time. If they were really so disgusted they could leave any time. This situation is a one time, one night, limited capacity type thing.
Edit: many of the men in this situation i can think of actively seek out hot young things. Some of this can be attributed to men paying for sex. The women though are active willing participants, but either way you slice it, no is taking advantage of anyone in that scenario.
If he was pissed too then all's fair. Alright, he fucked her boyfriend/girlfriend over, but at the end of the day you can't say him being drunk doesn't excuse his behaviour, but then not blame her. He wanted to have sex with her, she agreed, that's that.
If he was sober and she was pissed then no, don't go there, because that's way too opportunistic. And that really is a dick move.
intheweeds said:
EverythingIncredible said:
Situation described in this thread: OMG rape
Situation described in this thread if the genders were reversed: lol awesome
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