A question to the grown adult men of the Escapist

[SouthpawFencer]

Here is the situation. First of all, notice that I am female so this is most definitely not me we are talking about and the situation didn't happen to me, but never the less affects me deeply. Anyway here is the scenario:

A girl is very drunk. An 8-9 on the 1-10 scale of sober to passed out drooling. You know her, you know she has a serious partner and would never entertain you sober. You come on to her asking if you can touch her. she agrees. she seems into it. She asks you several times if you have a condom and you say no, but have sex with her anyway. She doesn't stop you.

I know scales suck, please explain yourself if you reply. On a scale of 1 to 10 where 1 is 'extremely sweet and respectful towards women' and 10 is 'this guy would have fucked her if she was passed out', how bad and/or normal is this guys mindset?

I'd place that on a 8 or 9 on the "Disgusting male behavior" scale. I'll reserve the 10 for men who drug women's drinks.

I'd find that guy's mindset to be extremely abhorrent. The woman is an idiot for getting that drunk without having somebody around to keep her out of trouble, but that doesn't remotely excuse the man's behavior in this situation.

 

[intheweeds]

I'm really not trying to. I have had lots of interactions with males and i continue to. I know everyone is different, It's just there is something about male sexuality that is different from women in a major way. That's a fact. you don't hear of many male joggers being dragged off and raped do you? I'm not trying to say this situation is at all like that, I'm just trying to make a point that there is something got male sexuality that can get very dark in some and you don't see it very often in women comparatively (I know sometimes you do I'm speaking in general). I mean there's a reason every good dad warns her daughter about how guys are. This is a taking advantage situation in my eyes and i feel like male sexuality and culture in some is more likely to allow for this to be okay for them. I'm quite open to intelligent debate on this topic.

Yeah Im sorry you are a little misandrist- there's a rather disturbing conclusion that can be reached from following your reasoning to its conclusion, do you really believe all men are potential rapists? That only men become sex offenders?
And no we're not condoning that sort of behaviour- the bloke in your story is an absolute creep, but then your girlfriend was still capable of saying no.

Ah no of course I don't think that. I have some men i truly love. I am just pointing out an obvious difference. There has to be something there. I'm not saying anything about men being rapists, I'm just pointing out a fact and questioning real men about it instead of coming to my own stupid uneducated conclusions. Just because i notice a difference doesn't make me a man hater. No more than men who point out the obvious fact that men have more muscle generally and are more suited to certain tasks than women. Which is also true.

 

[trooper6]

Yeah Im sorry you are a little misandrist- there's a rather disturbing conclusion that can be reached from following your reasoning to its conclusion, do you really believe all men are potential rapists? That only men become sex offenders?
And no we're not condoning that sort of behaviour- the bloke in your story is an absolute creep, but then your girlfriend was still capable of saying no.

1) Was she capable of saying no? The OP said on a scale of 1= Tipsy, 10 = passed out, she was an 8-9. That is very, very, very drunk. She may not have been capable of saying no...or even moving very much.
2) Consent is the presence of a yes, not just the absence of a no. She never said yes.

As for "All men are potential rapists." Considering that a woman is raped every 2 minutes in the US (according to the Department of Justice) women often need to treat all men as potential rapists in order to be safe. "All men are potential rapists" is basically the same saying as "Better safe than sorry."

As for the phrase "Only men become sex offenders" that isn't true. There are also female sex offenders. Of course, only 2% of sex offenders are women...so they are very small minority of sexual abusers. Which isn't to say that a female's sexual assault of men should be ignored. I have a male friend who was sexually assaulted by his girlfriend, so I take it seriously. As a personal/moral problem a woman sexually assaulting a man is just as bad as a man sexually assaulting a woman. However, as a social problem, the sexual assault of women by men is a much bigger problem than the other way around. But that is getting off topic.

 

[intheweeds]

If he was pissed too then all's fair. Alright, he fucked her boyfriend/girlfriend over, but at the end of the day you can't say him being drunk doesn't excuse his behaviour, but then not blame her. He wanted to have sex with her, she agreed, that's that.

If he was sober and she was pissed then no, don't go there, because that's way too opportunistic. And that really is a dick move.

Situation described in this thread: OMG rape

Situation described in this thread if the genders were reversed: lol awesome

See that's the thing, I know how women feel about this. The situation would never be reversed.

Women don't have the same parts and/or responsibility shirking abilities as men either.

Are you saying women can't rape men?

No of course not. I would never say such a thing. Violence against men is far too under reported and unnoticed as it is.

I'm saying on a day to day basis, in any bar anywhere, men have the built in capability of unintentionally getting a girl pregnant, ruining her life and never being seen again. If i had a dick, honestly i would consider that great power. Which as we all know should come with great responsibility. Women can make the same idiotic drunken decision, but she doesn't ruin anyone's life but her own when she does it.

 

[Craorach]

Ah no of course I don't think that. I have some men i truly love. I am just pointing out an obvious difference. There has to be something there. I'm not saying anything about men being rapists, I'm just pointing out a fact and questioning real men about it instead of coming to my own stupid uneducated conclusions. Just because i notice a difference doesn't make me a man hater. No more than men who point out the obvious fact that men have more muscle generally and are more suited to certain tasks than women. Which is also true.

You're right about there being differences in how males and females view sex.. both physically, mentally, socially and psychologically.. some of these differences are hardwired into our DNA, but many come from individual personality and culture.

It's an unspoken, and largely unadmitted, truth that men are just as vulnerable in their own way to sexual assaults and being taken advantage off. Certain male reactions can be extremely difficult to prevent consciously, and the body can react.. even without drugs.. when the mind is completely shut off.

Society also places an expectation upon men.. to want sex, all the time.. to want to go out and get laid... etc. Increasingly, this expectation is also being put upon women.

As culture is changing, if anything, men and women are equally as vulnerable to this sort of treatment from the other gender. One of the major differences, however, remains.. that of it not being spoken off when men are the victim.

 

[intheweeds]

First off I'm the type that has learned you NEVER give second chances to cheaters, so I'm not some "softy/forgive everything" type. With that in mind...

I notice you are in Toronto. Canadian law is EXTREMELY clear here, that man is guilty of sexual assault. Even if she actually said YES he is guilty of sexual assualt. Even if she came on to him first he is guilty of sexual assault. Even if he was also drunk, he is guilty of sexual assault.

Your gf was raped.

If she was as drunk as you say, she absolutely did nothing wrong and so on both a legal and moral basis he is a criminal ass and she is a victim.

You can't blame her for being raped, support her instead.

This is however a great lesson why no one should ever get so drunk/stoned that they are not in control. There are always assholes out there who will take advantage.

I somewhat feel this way too. But part of why she feels so disgusted is that she doesn't. She knows she made a shitty choice and doesn't consider him a rapist. If I were that guy, i would consider myself a rapist, but although she is creeped out by him and thinks he is an perverted pig, she is more angry at herself. I am supporting her as best i can. Understandably, I am pretty devastated myself.

 

[trooper6]

There's a dark side to both genders. Believe me, I've seen it...not to be taken in a dirty way.

Let's pretend that girls don't take advantage of drunk guys. Even though that's blatantly not true, but I'll grant you that for now.

What do you say about all of those girls who date (And many times sleep with) guys just to take their money?

Women sleeping with men for their money...which goes hand in hand with men paying women for sex...if part of the patriarchal system we are living in...a system wherein women don't get paid as much as men, where women are valued most for their sexuality, where men are valued for how much money they earn. In a society where men and women are truly equal, women wouldn't be encouraged to sleep when men for money, nor men to prove they are powerful men by giving women money for sex.

The patriarchy is bad for both man and women.

Don't change the subject. That's still taking advantage of men and stealing.

Whatever it is a symptom it is of, it's still wrong to do.

Is it an example of women taking advantage and stealing. Or is it an example of a guy taking advantage of his girlfriend's lack of economic power and treating her like a prostitute.

That man is consensually giving her money. It definitely isn't stealing.

 

[XHolySmokesX]

hmmm, i'm going to say they're both in the wrong but that doesn't mean it was necessarily anyones fault.

From my experience of drunkenness, people who are extremely drunk get extremely horny, there's a phychological reason for this but i wont go into.

The guy in this situation was showing confidence in actually going up and asking to 'touch her' which is one of the most attractive qualities a man can have, so if you ignore each of their backgrounds, you get a picture of why it all happened.

Drunkenness and other drugs work like a barrier from reality, they cloud your senses in different ways that make your expreriences seem unreal or simulated. This simulation affects everyone differently and for some people it can be so strong that their personality completely changes and they become totally detatched from real life, when under the influence.

In this situation i'm going to blame their lack of 'alcoholic consumption control' and class this situation as a consiquence of that rather than a conscious mistake.

 

[DazBurger]

Well... If she was pissed drunk and he was pissed drunk... And she agreed.. I don't see the problem.
They are both equally responsible.

Besides!.. You don't throw your responsibilities to the wind just because you drink and If you can't control yourself when drunk, either don't drink or get to terms with the outcome.


I'd say the guy is a 5... As is the girl.

 

[intheweeds]

As for "All men are potential rapists." Considering that a woman is raped every 2 minutes in the US (according to the Department of Justice) women often need to treat all men as potential rapists in order to be safe. "All men are potential rapists" is basically the same saying as "Better safe than sorry."

Exactly this. I was yelling when i said this to her, but I said exactly "sleeping with guys is fucking dangerous. It sucks because a lot of them a re really genuinely nice people and it ruins it for them, but the fact is some of them are disgusting pigs and if even just a few are, you have to filter them all." I was talking about the father of my daughter, since i was thinking of him. I had just said the day before how i hadn't seen him in a while and that he was such a nice guy. It sucks for guys like him and if i was guys like him, I would be pissed.

 

[emeraldrafael]

its rape if shes drunk, something about not being in a competent state of mind (though you can be drunk and driving and charged, I never understand, I guess its just hypocracy in the law).

So... I dotn know. I may entertain the thought, but I dont tink I'd act on it.

 

[Togs]

Yeah Im sorry you are a little misandrist- there's a rather disturbing conclusion that can be reached from following your reasoning to its conclusion, do you really believe all men are potential rapists? That only men become sex offenders?
And no we're not condoning that sort of behaviour- the bloke in your story is an absolute creep, but then your girlfriend was still capable of saying no.

1) Was she capable of saying no? The OP said on a scale of 1= Tipsy, 10 = passed out, she was an 8-9. That is very, very, very drunk. She may not have been capable of saying no...or even moving very much.
2) Consent is the presence of a yes, not just the absence of a no. She never said yes.

As for "All men are potential rapists." Considering that a woman is raped every 2 minutes in the US (according to the Department of Justice) women often need to treat all men as potential rapists in order to be safe. "All men are potential rapists" is basically the same saying as "Better safe than sorry."

As for the phrase "Only men become sex offenders" that isn't true. There are also female sex offenders. Of course, only 2% of sex offenders are women...so they are very small minority of sexual abusers. Which isn't to say that a female's sexual assault of men should be ignored. I have a male friend who was sexually assaulted by his girlfriend, so I take it seriously. As a personal/moral problem a woman sexually assaulting a man is just as bad as a man sexually assaulting a woman. However, as a social problem, the sexual assault of women by men is a much bigger problem than the other way around. But that is getting off topic.

So... what? All men are evil and should be castrated at birth?

And reread the OP, the way its written implies that she did nothing to stop him, "drunk and horny" as she was.

 

[pubbing]

But when you are drunk at a bar you loose all responsibility over your body and it is up to the man that you are with to do the right thing.

I agree with you, for the record, everyone has a responsibility for them selves when they choose to get plastered, but i am curious about one thing. You seem a little pissed that it is 'up to the man to do the right thing'. It makes it sound very much like you are saying you would be pissed to have to do the right thing. Do you think you should be able someone should be able to do whatever dick thing you want until someone stops you?

Sure, I completely agree both parties are responsible for themselves here and are at fault. But if you were the guy and this happened would you feel bad the next day for having been a dick? Would you wish you had done the right thing and be upset at yourself? Or would you just have a piece of toast and think about how that drunk girl let you do everything last night? I'm not saying you would be evil, obviously she is responsible for herself. I'm legitimately just curious.

I can't really speak for all men on that but I can tell you what I would feel personally. You see I don't really do the whole causal sex thing because for me when sex happens I can't help but get emotionally connected to someone. I guess it is just how I am wired. So if I ended up getting so drunk that that wiring shuts itself off temporarily and I end up having a casual encounter with someone who is already taken I would be pretty upset with myself.

Similarly if I was in my right mind and I didn't know she was taken and found out after that this was just a casual hookup I would definitely feel hurt by it.

I have also been in your boat before with a woman and have been cheated on so I know how bad it can feel. And yes I think a guy who knowingly hits on a woman who is taken is a fucking dick.

But don't let your cheating girlfriend use the "I was drunk" excuse. She did some scandalous shit to you and you shouldn't have to put up with that shit.

 

[DazBurger]

There's a dark side to both genders. Believe me, I've seen it...not to be taken in a dirty way.

Let's pretend that girls don't take advantage of drunk guys. Even though that's blatantly not true, but I'll grant you that for now.

What do you say about all of those girls who date (And many times sleep with) guys just to take their money?

Women sleeping with men for their money...which goes hand in hand with men paying women for sex...if part of the patriarchal system we are living in...a system wherein women don't get paid as much as men, where women are valued most for their sexuality, where men are valued for how much money they earn. In a society where men and women are truly equal, women wouldn't be encouraged to sleep when men for money, nor men to prove they are powerful men by giving women money for sex.

The patriarchy is bad for both man and women.

Arg come on! That theory of your's doesn't hold water, as gold-digging and prostitution goes both ways.
Its just not demonized as much.

 

[Horizontalvertigo]

Personally? That's way out on the 9-10 level. Behaviour like that is absolutely disgusting. It's undignified and dishonours not only yourself, the other person but their partner too. You are showing you have no respect for the other person and on top of that it also shows a complete and utter disregard for your own self respect. It's an absolute dog act.

I feel that I am a man of honour, and I know that I'm not perfect, but I will always try and do the right thing. If I was in that man's position, if I did what that person did, I would have betrayed every single one of the things that I believe make me a man. If I knew that man, I would lose any and all respect I had for him.