A question to the grown adult men of the Escapist

[Apollo45]

Honestly, if he was sober, then he'd be up there on your scale of disgusting. However, him being drunk does make a difference. While, in whatever case it may be, the situation is bad, he didn't do anything against her will. From your post I understand that both of them were intoxicated, and if either of them were sober that would never have happened. While it doesn't take the blame away from either of them, you can't blame the guy without also blaming the girl.

Now, that's not exactly your question; the question was how bad is the guy's mindset. And, honestly, at some level of intoxication the mindset almost goes out the window. Some people have better control over it than others (you seem to have rather spectacular control), but his mindset while drunk is likely completely and totally different than that while sober. In that case, you need to base the mindset off of what he does in his 'normal state', so to speak. What I mean is, if he's constantly getting drunk and cheating on people while doing so, you can judge him by that. But if this is a one time thing, and he feels bad about it too, you can't judge his entire mindset off of that one incident; just because he made a mistake doesn't mean he's a douchebag who completely disrespects women on all levels, much like just because it happened once to the girl doesn't mean she's a cheating whore who'll sleep with anyone, ya know?

Now, your third edit complicates things that much more. If this were just a friend, there would be reason to be angry at the guy, but at the same time it was the girl's fault as much as it was his, and you'd have to take that in to account. It's more complicated, but largely the same, in this case; it's both their faults. And, possibly more importantly, it wasn't the guy that cheated. From the point of view of an observer, I don't think you can be mad at the guy if you're not mad at the girl, and even then it makes more sense to be much more mad at the girl, since she was the one that did the betraying. However, from the point of view of the one being cheated on, if it happened to me I likely wouldn't mind seeing that guy lying broken and bloodied in a back alley somewhere. I might even be the one to do it, given the opportunity. I'd also really, really want to forgive the girl, and likely would in that particular case (being drunk isn't an excuse, but it might be justification for a second chance). If it happened again though, I don't think I'd be able to forgive her.

I apologize for not sticking with your initial question, but it's hard to pass judgement on the guy without also doing so on the girl, because both were instrumental in what happened and without one you can't fairly address the other.

 

[targren]

So why are you putting out a call to "grown adult men" about this kind of frat-boy BS?

Honestly, this "drunk at a party" crap screams "beer-bongs and stupid women."

 

[intheweeds]

Ah no of course I don't think that. I have some men i truly love. I am just pointing out an obvious difference. There has to be something there. I'm not saying anything about men being rapists, I'm just pointing out a fact and questioning real men about it instead of coming to my own stupid uneducated conclusions. Just because i notice a difference doesn't make me a man hater. No more than men who point out the obvious fact that men have more muscle generally and are more suited to certain tasks than women. Which is also true.

You're right about there being differences in how males and females view sex.. both physically, mentally, socially and psychologically.. some of these differences are hardwired into our DNA, but many come from individual personality and culture.

It's an unspoken, and largely unadmitted, truth that men are just as vulnerable in their own way to sexual assaults and being taken advantage off. Certain male reactions can be extremely difficult to prevent consciously, and the body can react.. even without drugs.. when the mind is completely shut off.

Society also places an expectation upon men.. to want sex, all the time.. to want to go out and get laid... etc. Increasingly, this expectation is also being put upon women.

As culture is changing, if anything, men and women are equally as vulnerable to this sort of treatment from the other gender. One of the major differences, however, remains.. that of it not being spoken off when men are the victim.

I will agree wholeheartedly about the under reported an unspoken nature of male abuse sexually, physically or otherwise. I have seen that in my life before and I wish people did wake up more about that possibility. It happens way more than is ever spoken about it's true.

You're right about the culture too. We are at the point where its okay to plaster sexy logos on the asses of pants for ten year olds. That is not okay in my eyes. Something is wrong with adults.

 

[ThatGuy25]

Yeah, she shouldn't drink to excess, responsibility, blah blah blah

But, no. There is no excuse for trying to hook up with an obviously drunk woman. What if you knew she was single? What if SHE was pressuring YOU? No. If you try something like that at a party, you're liable to get your ass stomped. Have some decency, or at least some rationality. Is it really worth the drama you KNOW will be coming later? If somebody would do something like this, they deserve whatever comes of it.

 

[intheweeds]

So why are you putting out a call to "grown adult men" about this kind of frat-boy BS?

Honestly, this "drunk at a party" crap screams "beer-bongs and stupid women."

its really just a call to NOT get replies from 15 year olds who don't have any idea anyway, but need to say something stupid. you know they exist! Frat boys are welcome to give they're two cents!

 

[Icehearted]

It goes both ways, OP. Women come onto and exploit men that would normally say no while sober, often while pretty much sober themselves (which is tantamount to rape). For a man in that situation the morning after is pretty upsetting, especially when he realizes someone he'd thought was a friend he could trust had been the one buying the drinks to get him too wasted to keep her off, and it'd been premeditated by her.

If both are too drunk to know better then it's generally just bad all around, and difficult to remain friends with someone you've lost control with.

 

[Dascylus]

Alcohol is no excuse... That's what people will often say in an attempt to condemn the guy... I hold to the same opinion.
But all things are equal... alcohol is no excuse for her either.

She cheated, he took a shot at a cute girl and got lucky.

Sure she can feel bad, but that's because she screwed up.
He's an asshole too but it takes two to tango.

 

[PunkRex]

All I can say is that this happened to me (at least a similar situation) and I took the high road. Yet here I sit, sexually frustrated and utterly alone... feels bad man, I mean wo-man.

 

[drisky]

Edit 2: Yes he had also been drinking, but I am of the type that believes, like some posters that being drunk doesn't excuse behavior. In the example I gave of myself in the same situation, I was not only wasted, i was also (for better or worse) super high on coke (it was a long time ago). This means that, yes, she has some blame here for her own actions. She knows that and hates herself, but putting that aside, it's the guys side of this i'm interested in really just now.

Heres the thing, drinking is dangerous. If both parties are drinking than they are severely impaired in terms of judgement. Most guys in a situation like this would also regret being in a situation like this, they won't go around bragging about a conquest or anything like that. In a situation like this both parties ended up drunk and sexually minded, not just one of them. It is terrible that this situation happened to your girl friend, but when someone drinks they need to either know their limit or have someone watching them. But from the male perspective, no, coming out looking like a rapist is not what we want. Situations like this are bad for everyone and its up to friends in the area to prevent them from happening. Once again I'm sorry this happened but she needs to take steps to prevent it from ever happening again.

 

[fenrizz]

First off I'm the type that has learned you NEVER give second chances to cheaters, so I'm not some "softy/forgive everything" type. With that in mind...

I notice you are in Toronto. Canadian law is EXTREMELY clear here, that man is guilty of sexual assault. Even if she actually said YES he is guilty of sexual assualt. Even if she came on to him first he is guilty of sexual assault. Even if he was also drunk, he is guilty of sexual assault.

Your gf was raped.

If she was as drunk as you say, she absolutely did nothing wrong and so on both a legal and moral basis he is a criminal ass and she is a victim.

You can't blame her for being raped, support her instead.

This is however a great lesson why no one should ever get so drunk/stoned that they are not in control. There are always assholes out there who will take advantage.

That is one of the most disturbing thing I have ever heard to be perfectly honest.

Conscentual sex between two intoxicated adults, and the man ends up a rapist by Canadian law?
That is truly sickening to hear.

It's not rape just because the law says so, and certainly not between to people that are consenting.

One the moral question I'd say, yes, he's a massive asshole and I'd stop him if I were there.
But that does not make it rape.

He asked, she agreed and seemed into it.
She asked for condom, he said no but they had sex anyway.

Does not equal rape in my opinion.

 

[intheweeds]

Now, your third edit complicates things that much more. If this were just a friend, there would be reason to be angry at the guy, but at the same time it was the girl's fault as much as it was his, and you'd have to take that in to account. It's more complicated, but largely the same, in this case; it's both their faults. And, possibly more importantly, it wasn't the guy that cheated. From the point of view of an observer, I don't think you can be mad at the guy if you're not mad at the girl, and even then it makes more sense to be much more mad at the girl, since she was the one that did the betraying. However, from the point of view of the one being cheated on, if it happened to me I likely wouldn't mind seeing that guy lying broken and bloodied in a back alley somewhere. I might even be the one to do it, given the opportunity. I'd also really, really want to forgive the girl, and likely would in that particular case (being drunk isn't an excuse, but it might be justification for a second chance). If it happened again though, I don't think I'd be able to forgive her.

I apologize for not sticking with your initial question, but it's hard to pass judgement on the guy without also doing so on the girl, because both were instrumental in what happened and without one you can't fairly address the other.

Your comments on my third edit sums up my feeling on the situation perfectly. Make no mistake i am raging furious at her too. But i do love her very much and we have been through a lot together. I do believe she is very sorry and won't do it again. She isn't drinking anymore at all for instance, which is a start at least.

 

[intheweeds]

As for "All men are potential rapists." Considering that a woman is raped every 2 minutes in the US (according to the Department of Justice) women often need to treat all men as potential rapists in order to be safe. "All men are potential rapists" is basically the same saying as "Better safe than sorry."

Exactly this. I was yelling when i said this to her, but I said exactly "sleeping with guys is fucking dangerous."

What. The. Fuck.

Ok, look, I get it, you're upset that your girlfriend cheated on you. But here's the fucking deal:

Romance is dead! I know that a lot of people are under the assumption that sex should be a loving, romantic thing, possibly with scented candles and rose petals. That's not how it works. You can make sex romantic if you want. But for the most part, it's a unglamorous, sweaty, casual way for people to enjoy themselves. Both women and men go into casual sex looking for some quick pleasure, and that's the way it's been for decades. As long as there has been sex, there have been people looking for a quick, commitment free screw to make themselves feel better.

Now, I'm sorry that your girl cheated on you. But right now, you're using the fact that she had an un-romantic sexual encounter with a man as an excuse to demonise men in general. Here's a few facts: the vast majority of men, even those of us who who dabble in casual sex, are decent people with strong morals and who find the idea of rape repulsive. Just because not everyone has a fairy tale view of love and romance, that's not an excuse to paint sex with men as some kind of dangerous risk comparable to swimming with sharks. Over 100 million acts of sex take place on a daily basis. The vast majority of those (in the West at least) take place between consenting adults.

Ask your girlfriend this question: If, while they were shagging, they'd switched around so that the guy was underneath and she was on top, would she have used that as a chance to make a run for the door? Because if she'd stayed riding on his dick while he was underneath her, then I'm sorry, but it's not rape, no matter how drunk she was. Rape victims, given the chance, don't stick around to allow the guy to finish himself off.

Don't put your shit on me. I have never once said in this whole thread that i thought she was raped, that i wasn't anything but absolutely furious at her or that i though all men were like this. I have many times explained that i am merely curious about men's thoughts about this being that i am not a man, I would rather hear it from the source(s). You have no idea about my views on sexuality or romance, how open or not I am to anything, so don't rage at me.

 

[Zeekar]

Snip

First of all, drawing a gender line in the sand is unwise. There is no "men's opinion". We're all different just like girls are all different. That's not a situation I'd ever be in, so it's an irrelevant question to me.

That kind of act would hypothetically go against the grain of my moral code, but that's for judging myself, not others.

Secondly, the scale you're using is equally irrelevant, as the severity is determined by the VICTIM, not by passers-by. Ask the girl who was taken advantage of what it was on a scale of 1-10.

Maybe they're really into that, drunk or not. That variable could change everything.

 

[PunkRex]

Alcohol is no excuse... That's what people will often say in an attempt to condemn the guy... I hold to the same opinion.
But all things are equal... alcohol is no excuse for her either.

She cheated, he took a shot at a cute girl and got lucky.

Sure she can feel bad, but that's because she screwed up.
He's an asshole too but it takes two to tango.

Agreed, I hate ANYONE who uses alchohol as an excuse.

Unless she was defenceless (as in comatose) then shes just as to blame for getting that drunk.
Before anyone calls me out on this, im not saying that its cool if she cant tell whats going on, thats rape. Im saying if shes flinging herself at you half naked. Getting trashed is no excuse to cheat on someone. Not to sure how I feel about the sober man/woman. Did he/she know said drunk had a partner, do they actually give a toss about said drunk, etc?

 

[SilentCom]

I don't know what to say... I couldn't explain why guys are like this, even though I am a 22 year old guy. Also, not all guys are like this. I would feel very uncomfortable if a drunk girl were to be coming on to me.

 

[Ninja-Claws-Benji]

You should get rid of her, dude. If she does this sort of thing, when you're in a serious relationship, it's not going to work, sorry.