Abortion....why?

[Twilight_guy]

The bible does mention that you shouldn't kill and since a child or fetus or what-have-you at any stage is considered alive it considered murder to get an abortion. Why is it such a highly charged issue? I guess it just got lucky. What issues do and do not become big are effect by a chatoic number of varibles and its hard to say why one thing is important and another isn't.

 

[TheFlyingMango]

This is always a hot topic at my school as I have been going to a Catholic school for fifteen years now. Everyone preaches abortion as an evil but I never agreed with that. I am not religous or anything like that but being "raised" Catholic sure has pounded some of thier morals into my mind. They say things like adoption is always an option, but everyone knows the things children go through in the system. If people were to truly believe in these things then they would adopt/foster or at least try to see it from the other's shoes. Until then I am on the side of secular government, who is the church to tell others what to do?

 

[hotsauceman]

OT: It is because most pro-life people consider abortion equal to murder. They think that when one aborts, that person is killing a child, and emotions take over. As for why Christians think it is bad, well the Bible says murder is bad, so by putting two and two together... I think you can do the rest.

To quote many many books i have read on the topic of abortion "Many pro-lifers also curiously to be the ones who support the death penelty and increase funds for the military."

But i used to be a pro-lifer. Till i realised the best way to stop abortion is to teach others how to have sex safily, increase fund to help those who have children and other such things like that.
I also realise that if you take it away, they will seek it elsewhere and it could be even worse.
If they truly do not want that baby, They are going to get rid of it.
But i think Many are militant about it because they see it as an evil. Kinda funny how People bomb abortion clinics and kill people in there...for killing.

 

[Something Amyss]

I don't know what part of the Bible it's in though.

Actually, about the only place you will find anything of the sort in the Bible talks about striking a woman and causing a miscarriage, and treats it more as a property crime. OT-wise, they don't even census children beneath the age of three, life is so "sacred."

The belief in abortion as murder and life beginning at conception is relatively new, and relatively unsupported in a Biblical sense. We don't get anything saying "Abortion is cool," though. I suppose that's enough.

 

[FateOrFatality]

The question I'm really posing was brought to me by moviebob's Breaking Dawn review. Why do so many people care so passionately and want to tell everyone why abortion is baaaaaadddddd? Entire works of art are devoted to it, even going as far back as Nightmare on Elm Street 5. It seems like a lot of Christians tend to be the "pro-lifers," but why is that really? I read the Bible. I really don't remember abortion being a topic for discussion, seeing as how the people who wrote the Bible and were alive when it took place didn't even know what germs were, let alone how sexual reproduction worked, let alone have a word for the concept of intentional aborted pregnancy.

I'm not defending anyone, and I agree that people should have the right to abortion, but the reason Christians are so against it is because apparently we are all made in the image of God, and thus we need to respect the sanctity of life. Some guy came up with "Natural Law" (or something along those lines) that says that using contraception, having abortions and having sex with another man is bad because of that.

Yeah, going to a Catholic school sucks. I don't even want to know all that...

 

[aei_haruko]

The other day at work I had to listen to a coworker (a guy I sort of like) do a mini-rant about the evils of abortion to five other guys. I was going to pop in my prepared pro-choice / pro abortion / troll speech, but I didn't bother. Not because I agreed with him, but because I really don't care anymore. Being a man, I can never have an abortion, nor can I legally bind someone against having an abortion. I'm all about freedom of choice and want it to be legal on that basis alone, but other than that it's difficult for me to work up the spirit to defend it strongly. (I mean I could, I just didn't and don't feel like it at the moment.)

The question I'm really posing was brought to me by moviebob's Breaking Dawn review. Why do so many people care so passionately and want to tell everyone why abortion is baaaaaadddddd? Entire works of art are devoted to it, even going as far back as Nightmare on Elm Street 5. It seems like a lot of Christians tend to be the "pro-lifers," but why is that really? I read the Bible. I really don't remember abortion being a topic for discussion, seeing as how the people who wrote the Bible and were alive when it took place didn't even know what germs were, let alone how sexual reproduction worked, let alone have a word for the concept of intentional aborted pregnancy.

Feel free to troll, flame, or otherwise do forum stuff that could get you banned or the thread deleted. I want to hear from both Christians, sociologists, and smart-alecks alike. Why is this a Christian cause? Who made it that way? And how is it perpetuated?

I'm going to sound really odd by saying this, but I am an atheist...and pro life

you see, i view that the minute 2 different genes come together to form an entirely new set of genes ( i;e conception) that life begins.
Thus, i believe it is murder to do an abortion. Because the right to live, is the most supreme right that we as humans hold ( not given by a creator in my book). Thus no right can infringe on it. The only time i believe it is okay, is when the mother is going to die along with the baby, because if life will be lost anyway, there might as well be a choice in he matter to be held by the one making the choice. Plus abortion as a practice seems selfish to me. It's be Like saying " i did something, but i dont wanna live with my actions, so I'm going to just get rid of a problem" of course, i'm not talking about rape, obviously a girl didnt make a choice, the rapist did, and he made a sick disgusting choice. But why harm an innocent party that did nothing in the matter?

 

[idarkphoenixi]

Speaking in general terms, people who are against abortion no matter what are usually on the right wing of politics. What I mean by that is they are against big Government, officials and bureaucrats telling you what to do (or not to do).

But surely government can't get much bigger than being inside a womens uterus and controlling her birth?


Side note: If they're against abortion they're probably pro-execution too. Yay for irony!

 

[Guardian of Nekops]

Well, the Christian rationalization for being so up-in-arms about it is fairly easy to understand. They believe, rightly or wrongly, that abortion is tantamount to the murder of an inconvenient human, something that I think we can all agree is about as bad as it gets. From their perspective, they are saving innocent lives, which we all agree is admirable.

Asking such a person to feed, shelter, and clothe a homeless person for 18 years might be an interesting counterpoint... if you don't, they might well die (and there's certainly no shortage of people who WILL, even if you have to cross oceans to get to them), but it is indeed massively inconvenient and the insidiously handy defense of "it's not my problem," is there to save them. All in all, not a very Christian thing to say but... everybody does. Couldn't function otherwise.

As for why those in favor of abortion get worked up about it... well, it might be good to compare it to how you feel when someone calls you a murderer because you eat meat. They are calling you a horrible person because you don't follow their moral code, something that, at least from the outside, looks like it would require every bit of your effort, just to make them happy, and because you don't you're being called a murderer.

Now, imagine that a good portion of the news media/world agreed with that person rather than mostly calling their claims ludicrous. About half, or so it seems. Imagine that there were serious efforts being made to make steak illegal, and to punish those who ate meat as war criminals. Imagine if there were people not currently locked up in an insane asylum who defended vicious attacks against restaraunt owners... Can you imagine how scared you'd be?

So yeah, I can see both sides of it, and why people get worked up. One side looks at the other and sees a bunch of baby-killers, while the other look back at those who would chain them down to raising kids, alone, while they are still teenagers... and then still not be happy with them because, with their oh-so-vast experience of the world, they should have known better.

So, basically, murderers on the one side, slavers on the other. Both trying to do right, not saying they aren't... but it's a bit of a public relations nightmare.

 

[ccggenius12]

But why harm an innocent party that did nothing in the matter?

That sentence could apply just as well to the woman who was raped.

 

[Chemical Alia]

Plus abortion as a practice seems selfish to me. It's be Like saying " i did something, but i dont wanna live with my actions, so I'm going to just get rid of a problem" of course, i'm not talking about rape, obviously a girl didnt make a choice, the rapist did, and he made a sick disgusting choice. But why harm an innocent party that did nothing in the matter?

I dunno, that sounds to me like a pretty good reasoning for not wanting to endure pregnancy, childbirth and raising a child you never wanted. Not when there's such an obvious solution.

 

[zehydra]

My stance against abortion has nothing to do with religion, and I have the biggest problem with late abortions. I don't think life (in any meaningful sense) starts at conception, but I think it's wrong to consider something "not alive" just because it's in the womb.

 

[zehydra]

Plus abortion as a practice seems selfish to me. It's be Like saying " i did something, but i dont wanna live with my actions, so I'm going to just get rid of a problem" of course, i'm not talking about rape, obviously a girl didnt make a choice, the rapist did, and he made a sick disgusting choice. But why harm an innocent party that did nothing in the matter?

I dunno, that sounds to me like a pretty good reasoning for not wanting to endure pregnancy, childbirth and raising a child you never wanted. Not when there's such an obvious solution.

Raising the child is never required in today's society.

 

[Thaluikhain]

But why harm an innocent party that did nothing in the matter?

That sentence could apply just as well to the woman who was raped.

Exactly.

However, if you believe abortion is wrong because all human life is precious, and extend that to your other beliefs, than I can somewhat respect that, if not agree with it. It's people who use that line when discussing abortion, but who conveniently ignore it when dealing with other topics I really hate.

 

[aei_haruko]

But why harm an innocent party that did nothing in the matter?

That sentence could apply just as well to the woman who was raped.

I'm just saying, that really, would you want to be told " sorry man, I dont want you to grow up because i dont want you in my life" I just think that really, if a kid didnt do anything to you, then why punish an innocent child for the crimes of a horrible horrible person? I mean, yes, the rapist was terrible, he took months of your free time, he took your body sexually, and i could understand resentment to your child. However, no matter whom your father is, that doesnt mean that you shoudnt live.

Plus abortion as a practice seems selfish to me. It's be Like saying " i did something, but i dont wanna live with my actions, so I'm going to just get rid of a problem" of course, i'm not talking about rape, obviously a girl didnt make a choice, the rapist did, and he made a sick disgusting choice. But why harm an innocent party that did nothing in the matter?

I dunno, that sounds to me like a pretty good reasoning for not wanting to endure pregnancy, childbirth and raising a child you never wanted. Not when there's such an obvious solution.

and again, why should the baby be punished for the crimes of another person? Plus, I'm not saying that somebody should have to raise their chld, you could put the child up for adoption. Why is it that if people want an easy fix that people go for abortion? adoption is the exact same principle: go through a medical proceudre, and not have to face your child again ( the medical procedure in adoptions case being physically giving birth)
I just think it's wrong for somebody who did no wrong ( the child) to be punished, likewise, i'm not saying ' mother must raise their children which they didnt plan for and were made out of rape" Hell no, I'm just saying, give your child a chance to live, because I believe that everybody deserves a chance to live, and that anybdy who takes away those rights inherint in all people, isding something wrong

 

[Ryan Minns]

Eh, I'm against it due to personal reasons that have sweet **** all to do with religion.

Just wish more abortions were based on things other than not wanting to take responsibility, not being able to is one thing, simply not wanting to is all too common though

 

[Haagrum]

I'm going to sound really odd by saying this, but I am an atheist...and pro life

you see, i view that the minute 2 different genes come together to form an entirely new set of genes ( i;e conception) that life begins.
Thus, i believe it is murder to do an abortion. Because the right to live, is the most supreme right that we as humans hold ( not given by a creator in my book). Thus no right can infringe on it. The only time i believe it is okay, is when the mother is going to die along with the baby, because if life will be lost anyway, there might as well be a choice in he matter to be held by the one making the choice. Plus abortion as a practice seems selfish to me. It's be Like saying " i did something, but i dont wanna live with my actions, so I'm going to just get rid of a problem" of course, i'm not talking about rape, obviously a girl didnt make a choice, the rapist did, and he made a sick disgusting choice. But why harm an innocent party that did nothing in the matter?

It's not odd, it's what you believe. Without seeking to get into an argument about our respective opinions, your position depends on your thesis about when human life begins. That's fine. I don't think anyone believes that pregnancy terminations are "desirable" occurrences. I just think it's not as black-and-white as you appear to be asserting.

(1) The right to life is the most important one, since it tends to be a pre-requisite for exercising any others. However, "pre-eminence" of a right does not equal "absoluteness", especially since they may conflict with the same right possessed by another. Is another person's right to life sacrosanct if they're trying to kill someone else? Most people (and the law) would say no, largely because it's coming into conflict with another person's right to life. If that first person must be killed to prevent the death of another person, and if that's acceptable (if still undesirable), then that right to live is not absolute.

If the right to live is not absolute and can be limited in certain circumstances, the question is where the line is drawn, not whether it is drawn at all. Again, this comes back to "when does human life begin?" and I'm not trying to convince you that you're wrong. I am merely pointing out that reasonable people may differ on the matter and that in practice it is not as simple as "Life > All".

(2) Mistakes happen, even with the best of intentions. Aside from abstinence, no method of contraception is perfect. Sometimes, those mistakes are the best thing that ever happens to the people involved. Sometimes, they are not. Automatically casting someone who falls pregnant (or indeed, their partners - but it's usually the women who are criticised) when they didn't plan it as "irresponsible" is frequently inaccurate and somewhat insensitive.

(3) If you have ever had the opportunity to talk about the "selfishness" aspect of terminations to a person who has been through an abortion process - whether they're male or female - I doubt that the person will express anything other than sorrow, remorse and guilt. They almost certainly won't be brushing it off or seeing it as a "convenient escape". Some people, I'm sure, actually are that callous or irresponsible - but banning abortion on the basis that it might be abused is hardly a considered response. The same logic could be used to justify banning civilian possession of firearms, alcohol or motor vehicles.

 

[Vicarious Reality]

I wonder if these people who want to legislate abortion also eat meat?

 

[aei_haruko]

I'm going to sound really odd by saying this, but I am an atheist...and pro life

you see, i view that the minute 2 different genes come together to form an entirely new set of genes ( i;e conception) that life begins.
Thus, i believe it is murder to do an abortion. Because the right to live, is the most supreme right that we as humans hold ( not given by a creator in my book). Thus no right can infringe on it. The only time i believe it is okay, is when the mother is going to die along with the baby, because if life will be lost anyway, there might as well be a choice in he matter to be held by the one making the choice. Plus abortion as a practice seems selfish to me. It's be Like saying " i did something, but i dont wanna live with my actions, so I'm going to just get rid of a problem" of course, i'm not talking about rape, obviously a girl didnt make a choice, the rapist did, and he made a sick disgusting choice. But why harm an innocent party that did nothing in the matter?

It's not odd, it's what you believe. Without seeking to get into an argument about our respective opinions, your position depends on your thesis about when human life begins. That's fine. I don't think anyone believes that pregnancy terminations are "desirable" occurrences. I just think it's not as black-and-white as you appear to be asserting.

(1) The right to life is the most important one, since it tends to be a pre-requisite for exercising any others. However, "pre-eminence" of a right does not equal "absoluteness", especially since they may conflict with the same right possessed by another. Is another person's right to life sacrosanct if they're trying to kill someone else? Most people (and the law) would say no, largely because it's coming into conflict with another person's right to life. If that first person must be killed to prevent the death of another person, and if that's acceptable (if still undesirable), then that right to live is not absolute.

If the right to live is not absolute and can be limited in certain circumstances, the question is where the line is drawn, not whether it is drawn at all. Again, this comes back to "when does human life begin?" and I'm not trying to convince you that you're wrong. I am merely pointing out that reasonable people may differ on the matter and that in practice it is not as simple as "Life > All".

(2) Mistakes happen, even with the best of intentions. Aside from abstinence, no method of contraception is perfect. Sometimes, those mistakes are the best thing that ever happens to the people involved. Sometimes, they are not. Automatically casting someone who falls pregnant (or indeed, their partners - but it's usually the women who are criticised) when they didn't plan it as "irresponsible" is frequently inaccurate and somewhat insensitive.

(3) If you have ever had the opportunity to talk about the "selfishness" aspect of terminations to a person who has been through an abortion process - whether they're male or female - I doubt that the person will express anything other than sorrow, remorse and guilt. They almost certainly won't be brushing it off or seeing it as a "convenient escape". Some people, I'm sure, actually are that callous or irresponsible - but banning abortion on the basis that it might be abused is hardly a considered response. The same logic could be used to justify banning civilian possession of firearms, alcohol or motor vehicles.

Very intesting points. now for my responses
1: i believe that the right for a human being to live is greater than any right, except ittself. For example, freedom of speech, a wonderful thing, but if somebody sudennly says ' that man over there is an undercover cop" in a crime infested neighborhood, then that man moght die because of what the person who spoke out said. Needless to say, in that instence, freedom of speech was sacrifieced for the right to live. However, if one person kills another person in self defence, then the right to live was violated. Which, yes, technically is true. idk, I just think that rights are to be respected, and if somebody tries to infringe on them, then thats wrong, and that amongst allrights, that the greatest one is the right to live.
2: Yep, I agree, contraceptives fail. I agree. I also dont think that it's all irresponsibility, sometimes it is, but not always, totally. However, i believe that people should live with their actions in this case. When 2 people create life, I believe that you HAVE to be responsible for the child you produced. Not saying that people are always irresponsible, accidents do happen, 100% correct, couldnt agree more. However, I think that no matter what, that if one brings life into the world, that it is the responsibility of both partners to make sure the living being is raised in the world ( again, the rape example being the exception, the kid should have the right to live, but if the mother doesnt want the kid being near her, fair enough, she let him live, thats good enough)
3: I agree, some people feel tremendous remorse for it. I was more or less just complaining about the whole stigma behind it. More about the people who are that callous, then about people who feel bad.
my main point is that a person should have the right to live, unless by living somebody else must die, and that because abortion ends life, it is wrong. Thats my opinion, no biblical " because jesus says" or any " women are just bitches" talk. I believe it is not right because it ends life, and I believe that all people deserve the right to live, provided that they dont end other life by doing it. But yes, i believe that some rights supercede others, because some rights are of more value than others.

 

[Mookowicz]

I thought it worthwhile to offer some context.

The medical term for a miscarriage after 6 weeks is clinical spontaneous abortion, though the popular term "miscarriage" makes it sound like the mother was somehow at fault for "failing to carry" the pregnancy. The rate for spontaneous abortions is around 10% for women in their early 20s, rising to over 90% for women over 45. A pregancy with a genetic disorder has around a 95% chance of being spontaneously aborted.

I mention this to show that nature itself terminates a lot of pregancies for what is in evolutionary terms, quite sensible reasons, and to show that a lot of the emotion attached to termination is created by the language in which we talk about it - "miscarriage" sounds like neglect, while "abortion" sounds like a mistake. In reality they're part of a continuum of ending unviable reproduction.

Childbirth is one of the biggest events in the life of an adult, and a notable event for society. Whatever the cause of an ended pregnancy, there can be trauma to both parents (especially the mother), and anxiety among family and friends. We tell stories about the event and the trauma, trying to find meaning in it. Being the creatures that we are, we'll often lay blame.

When we invent meaning, we also invent morality -- though this is often based on veiled self-interest. Religions who want more followers may insist on more children. Being unable to face death, we may decide that all life should be preserved (though nature itself holds to no such scruple). Fearing the death of our own children, we might blame the mother for some failure or neglect (though abortions are not contagious). The community has a vested interest in its own continuation, so there's community pressure toward childbirth in most societies. Lastly, most adults are delighted by children. The idea of not having a child to coo over is often disappointing -- even if it's not our child.

Unfortunately, this can put the parents (and especially an expectant mother) in an invidious situation. Parents can only do a good job at parenting when they have the time and resources to do so. All around the world, mothers kill their newborn in times of famine just to preserve their existing families. Whatever our sensibilities, it is ignorant to overlook just how ruthlessly self-interested humans tend to be when it comes to reproduction.

Abortion is not the best way to control reproduction. It's messy, potentially dangerous and late in pregnancy it's potentially inhumane. We have better tools for many circumstances and should encourage their use. But when people step in to speak for the life of something that is neither conscious nor independently alive, they're assuming authority on the basis of nothing more than their feelings and myths. There are definitely times when society should step in during pregnancy, but most times I think we're just bullying out of ignorance and self-interest.

 

[Orinon]

Well I can't say I'm qualified to give an approval or disapproval of Abortion. I'm a guy, I'll never, ever get pregnant, whats more from biological/Evolutionary/Anthropological standpoint, Men weren't the best with children Primitive man probably nailed about ten different women a day, in nature the male usually impregnates the female and disappears. now yes there are exception and I know that a good father loves their child unconditionally. but its not always like that, Thousands of men would sleep with a women, not even caring about them personally they just thought they were hot (and technically that's allowed, so even though I personally think that makes you a scumbag, I gotta keep my trap shut) and would probably leave at the first opportunity, and if the girl is pregnant its
"sorry girl your on your own." and then flee as fast as they can.

now what was all that rabble about? Well I'm trying to give context to this fact, A man is capable of not caring what happens to his offspring. A This doesn't really happen in women, they are biologically wired to care about the fetus growing inside them.
So in my personal opinion, Its amazingly difficult to abort a fetus, if I ever get a girlfriend and she ends up having an abortion you can bet your ass I'm going to be reassuring her, (It'd be her choice, it's her body, her rules) I'd be doing everything I can to make her feel better. Another note on this girlfriend abortion thing, if any catholic person yells at her screaming murderer, yeah I'm gonna hurt them.

I do oppose he anti-Abortion laws as they were made from an earlier time were the only viewpoint taken into account were that of White heterosexual men, and those men know nothing about pregnancy or the feeling of attachment.

Now if you excuse me I'm going to cry because i just remembered I'll never have a girlfriend