An Apology to Jon Finkel
- Thread starter Susan Arendt
- Start date
No honestly. Many find my nerdiness off-putting. I find I have to reveal it slowly, otherwise I overwhelm people. Not to be overly general, but I find nerdy guys are either not terribly extroverted, making them difficult to meet, or they are closet nerds like myself.CK76 said:
Add me to the list. Geek guys are awesome. They're smart, dry-wittedly funny, self-depreciating (read: not COMPLETELY full of themselves), interesting and often very good-looking. This woman is an idiot. Jon, we are not ALL like this!
To Gunboat, what exactly do you find sexist about a group of women who want Jon and his "nerdy" compatriots to know that we as geeky girls don't agree with this viewpoint? Sure, it's okay not to like the same things as your potential partner, but it is NOT okay to completely dismiss them because of one hobby. If he was some kind of maniacal sadist or liked keeping puppy heads in jars as a hobby then sure, it might not work out. But who is to say that Jon doesn't enjoy watching the occasional football game? Maybe he also plays a sport. Perhaps he likes the same kind of music. Just because he is the world best in a game that she doesn't understand is no reason to completely bag him out.
So yes, you may add me to the list of Jon supporters. @Phantomess.
To Gunboat, what exactly do you find sexist about a group of women who want Jon and his "nerdy" compatriots to know that we as geeky girls don't agree with this viewpoint? Sure, it's okay not to like the same things as your potential partner, but it is NOT okay to completely dismiss them because of one hobby. If he was some kind of maniacal sadist or liked keeping puppy heads in jars as a hobby then sure, it might not work out. But who is to say that Jon doesn't enjoy watching the occasional football game? Maybe he also plays a sport. Perhaps he likes the same kind of music. Just because he is the world best in a game that she doesn't understand is no reason to completely bag him out.
So yes, you may add me to the list of Jon supporters. @Phantomess.
Reading these type of responses and I have to shake my head...sleeky01 said:
"Yer only giving her moar hitz" isn't a valid reason NOT to call Alyssa out on being a douchebag. If she thrives on the negative attention, that makes her all the more pathetic. I would rather Susan and her pals speak out against this kind of unjustified character assassination than let it become socially acceptable.
I'm sorry, but if I went on a date with a cute lady (I say cute lady because Jon isn't a bad looking guy in and of himself), and she told me she was the grand champion of yu gi oh, or magic, or pokemon, or wow cards, or tetris (You get the point? no?), or Call of Duty (How about now?), I would sit there and judge, I would be hella interested.
How did you find out about this?
When did you decide you were that interested in this?
When did you figure out you wanted to go pro?
What other hobbies do you have?
Any other job prospects or just kicking ass and taking numbers at what you do?
I mean... FUCK! It's interesting, they're interesting. He (she in my case. Rawr) is a human being with hopes and ambitions. The fact that someone has achieved something to such a degree only makes them that much more fascinating.
And well... the last words of the night MAY or MAY NOT be "I don't care if there's a second date, you can use me for you nerd-God (or Goddess) body's needs. Purr..."
... Too far?
How did you find out about this?
When did you decide you were that interested in this?
When did you figure out you wanted to go pro?
What other hobbies do you have?
Any other job prospects or just kicking ass and taking numbers at what you do?
I mean... FUCK! It's interesting, they're interesting. He (she in my case. Rawr) is a human being with hopes and ambitions. The fact that someone has achieved something to such a degree only makes them that much more fascinating.
And well... the last words of the night MAY or MAY NOT be "I don't care if there's a second date, you can use me for you nerd-God (or Goddess) body's needs. Purr..."
... Too far?
*smiles* Susan? Various other women who wern't listed first, but are equally as important?
It makes my heart warm to know that there are women like you out there in the world. I've quite often spoken up against women who are, quite frankly, sexist, yet get away with it. The fact that so many of you are willing to stand up for something like this...its just.....I...wow.
That Finkle woman was clearly among the lowest of the low. And while I hope she learns her lesson at some point and...gets better in general, what she has done is inexcusable.
Allright, its late here. So to sum up. You guys? Awesome. Finkle? Fail. Me? Tired. Bye bye now.
It makes my heart warm to know that there are women like you out there in the world. I've quite often spoken up against women who are, quite frankly, sexist, yet get away with it. The fact that so many of you are willing to stand up for something like this...its just.....I...wow.
That Finkle woman was clearly among the lowest of the low. And while I hope she learns her lesson at some point and...gets better in general, what she has done is inexcusable.
Allright, its late here. So to sum up. You guys? Awesome. Finkle? Fail. Me? Tired. Bye bye now.
Condescension aside, this is pretty much what I was going to say. What the journalist in question did was unethical and thoughtless, but making this an issue of gender on a video gaming site strongly comes across as an appeal to a demographic with a surplus of sexual frustration. As a gamer, I'm used to being targeted as though I were a sexless husk (booth babes, scoliosis-inducing breasts on female protagonists, etc.), so what I perceive to be a cynical ploy for my readership is a complete non-issue for me; the troubling part is how this story went from "bad person does bad thing to person who didn't deserve it", to "a WOMAN did a horrible thing to a MAN, women everywhere scramble to apologize on her behalf" in a single step.Samurai Goomba said:
Maybe it's just me, but turning this into a matter of gender politics carries some uncomfortably dark undertones. I know it's intended to be a nice gesture towards the dude who was wronged and a vengeful "take that" against whats-her-face for being an ass, I promise the intent isn't lost on me; what bothers me, however, is the way that comes across as less "this is the condemnation of the actions made by an openly flawed and unprofessional person" and more along the lines of "this is a condemnation of a woman's behavior by other women because she did a thing we don't want to be associated with"; I can understand not wanting anyone to drink out of the murky lake of detritus and loathing that is sexism (in fact, I'm right there with you), but the best precautionary action that could be taken would be not leading the horse to the water to begin with. If she was a feminist that did this as an act of womanly supremacy according to her published manifesto titled "Penises: The Greatest Threat to Womankind", this could be categorized as wholly warranted, but the story as it is transcends gender, because this kind of shit is done thousands of times every hour by both men and women. To not only include, but emphasize the fact that a woman did this to a man, connects the dots between "women" and "cruel and petty" in the minds of your readership whether you like it or not.
I think its nice that you girls apologize for miss bitchy pants, but you are hardly the kind of girls that should be apologizing for this situation.The Rogue Wolf said:
Sure, you may share the gender as the offender, but that hardly counts for anything in my books.
You are intelligent females that enjoy "nerdy" activities that may be: gaming, making lolcat pictures, or just being awesome. That is hardly activity that Bereznak would partake in, so how do you feel compelled to apologize for someone that mind as well be of a different species?
I don't apologize for the Vancouver riots despite the fact that I am Canadian; I am ashamed that such behaviour came from my country, and 1 province over to boot, but it wasn't me in the riots, and I don't know anyone that was in it. I consider the people that took part in the riots to be of a different race/species/etc., since I have never known any Canadian to partake in such horrible behaviour.
I am sure Mr. Finkel will appreciate your apology on Bereznak's behalf, but also scratch his head in confusion as to why you are apologizing for someone so very unlike yourselves.
This times infinity.The Rogue Wolf said:
What an amazingly well written response to this whole thing. Women like that don't deserve to date people.
Bravo.
And you know why that happens? Could it be that there's quite a few of us that have been severely hurt by women in the past, but as we're guys we have to "suck it up"?Samurai Goomba said:
The step made was hers. Do you really know any guy who would, after one date, would turn and publicly humiliate a "celebrity" in front of their peers?SODAssault said:
Do you perhaps remember me apologising for David Icke or Keith Vaz (as they're Leicesterites)? Or Australians apologising for Michael Atkinson? It's because we feel responsible. We see this sort of thing happen and yet we can't do anything to stop it.
The Engliish football hooligans? Most English people apologise for them - even if they don't watch/like football. Same with the Canadian Hockey riots.
OK, I'm going out on a limb here. That's the point. (And feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)
When men(in general) dislike something, they threaten violence against it. Kick it, punch it, shoot it, it's all machismo designed to express our rage against something BUT it's very rare that it comes to that - and then only in people driven by anger.
Women(in general) don't have that - possibly they're smarter, possibly they have more emotional sensitivity - they condemn something by disassociation. As Gunboat disassociates herself from the rest of the women:
(Firm insinuation of whore-like behaviour.)
, so some of the guys will respond with insinuations of violence because they've been hurt in the past and want to associate payback.
This isn't a bad thing. This is catharsis in the same way that an FPS or a driving game is.
Susan (and the others) obviously feel(s) strongly enough about this after seeing many nerd friends being taken through the mangler - maybe there is some anger or regret there - but that's why the Gender Politics has stepped in. Alyssa started it by broadcasting a date put-down to a bunch of people who have been date put-downs.
And, honestly? I think she knew that from the very start. She's swimming in bad PR from this, and some people preferred to be feared than loved.
It's just we still (Men/Women) release our anger in different ways. Perhaps that should be the next step?
I can see why both of you feel the way you do over this - as it took me some time to find my own opinion unclouded by anger, but Susan (and others) are offering the peace branch in standing beside us.
Perhaps we should be the ones smacking the head of our "KEEL ALL WIMMEN" buddies and telling them to grow up?
This is unfortunate that it happened to Jon but I am happy that finally when a woman has become shallow that people rise up to the occasion and call her out on it as it seems that it only happens when guys do it. Not trying to slander all women just saying it's an interesting change of pace from what I've noticed on the internet.
I wish I could find a nice nerd girl in my area
Also Susan & Co. I think its really thoughtful what you've done.
I wish I could find a nice nerd girl in my area
Also Susan & Co. I think its really thoughtful what you've done.
Alright, bear with me here as a take on this massive pile of quotes and attempt to address your points with the attention they deserve. Fortunately, I think this first point is the easiest of them to answer. There is, however, no way to say this nicely. While I have great respect for your contributions to the escapist forums in most discussions, I feel you're just plain wrong on this point, or are giving undue weight to certain areas.The_root_of_all_evil said:
It's not right that you should have to "suck it up" when you feel unhappy. It isn't. And you shouldn't. WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT and so forth.
However, this is EXACTLY the excuse given for why many men will decide all women are evil, or all women are only good for sex, etc.
http://www.the-niceguy.com/forum/
This forum and the horrible posts made therein exist because of your argument. I've been rejected when I was younger, too. I wasn't rejected by WOMEN, I was rejected by PEOPLE. Sometimes I was even rejected by social hierarchy AND people. Women never rejected me, and if these same men who use this excuse kept going out and living their lives as the best people they knew how to be (most of them don't, they let their anger shut them away from the genuinely decent behaviors that would cause nice girls to enjoy being around them), they'd find that women have not rejected them, either. I love women. It's still easier to be a straight man and find romance than to be any other kind of man. Just ask gay people how rough it is to find somebody good. :/ Keep trying, man. Or don't, sometimes the right person will find you.
'Kay. I don't think you should feel obligated, though. And I would hope you'd stop giving those apologies if you saw a mass of people using them as fuel for anti-English rallies or something.
I'm not sure you are correct, but who knows. Does it matter? The insinuation women are smarter is as laughable to me as the claims made on the Nice Guys forum that women are only good for sex. Women hold more college education, true, but men have many, many societal pressures which affect their further education. Women have different pressures. These days, even being a mother or a working woman is not a huge obstacle to education (though it is tough). Being a low-income male born into a slum full of gangs, however, is. Overcoming the ideology alone is huge. Just different obstacles, I think. I dunno, I don't have a firm answer or rebuttal to this point, as it seems to be largely speculative. Interesting, though. :0
Your opinion doesn't sound unclouded by anger if you're saying women kinda deserve to be railed against by sexist men because OH NO those men got dumped.
You don't even know why some of them were. For every case like yours where a genuine nice guy got thrown over for no good reason (my assumption), there's an imbecile who THINKS he is amazing who women rightly steered clear of when they realized he's a creepy Kevin Bacon serial killer in the making.I can see where you're coming from on this, and I'm not trying to tell women what they should think or say (except as it regards presenting via an official news article to a primarily male audience on this website), but I see a lot of sexism online and I don't think these kinds of articles help. As I said, you can see evidence of sour grapes morphing into "women who aren't nerds like Susan are evil and mean" sentiments already in the comments.
Well, I've got a billy club. You round up the woman-haters, I'll bop 'em on the head while you shove a picture of Mary Wollstonecraft in their faces.
Never forget what you are, for the world will surely not. Make it your own, wear it like armor and they can never hurt you with it.draconiansundae said:
To quote an epic fantasy work. Shame thats how it is for you, now I am off to date a delightful young lady whose favorite program is "Firefly" and likes zombies. Best of luck to you!
Good for you that you like geek guys. However non-geek women often find the geek aspect of guys to be a turn-off. As Alyssa herself acknowledges its shallow but that what people are like when it comes to attraction. We don't choose what turns us on or off as many a guilt-ridden attendee of "ex-gay christian boot camp" knows.Phantomess said:
I did not call Susan Arendt & Co. sexist. I did say it panders to sexism. And it clearly does, just look at some of the deply misogynist posts on this thread from Jon supporters, some even wishing violence. You're not exactly in stellar company.Phantomess said:
What, are you the dating police? Its perfectly ok for anyone to reject anyone for whatever reason at all. Don't like their shoes. Fine. Don't like which way they vote? Fine. Don't like the colour of their skin? Ooooh thats a bit racist and I don't agree with that at all. But at the end of the day its up to the individual so - fine. Why? Becuase its nobody elses business what someone chooses to do with their own body. Even if they - shock horror - write about it online.Phantomess said:
As I'm sure you're aware being able to choose who you fuck is a recent and still localised phenomenon for women. There are many places in the world where women still don't have that choice and you don't have to go the third world to see that. The wails of geek boys on this and other forums are an echo of the wails of a patricarchal society which has treated women as property for aeons and recently is losing control. Which is good for everyone, men and women, even if some men don't realise it.
Germaine Greer once wrote something like "most women have no idea how much men despise them." While that goes a bit far to generalise it is true that misogyny is an essential part of machismo culture. Many men bond with each other all the time by denigrating women. In the workplace, in bars, in homes, its everywhere and its throughout all classes and agegroups. Most of the time though they don't do it directly in front of women these days in western culture. For the same reason it isn't polite to call black people n----r. And of course many men don't participate in this group misogyny, although it can at times be very difficult to avoid or oppose.
Polticial correctness gone mad? Or social advancement toward equality?
No, I'm simply throwing Susan Arendt & Co. accusations right back at them. Incidentally I don't think theres anything wrong with prostitution per se. Or "whore-like behaviour as you so sensitively put it. Or as one of your fellow travellers puts it:The_root_of_all_evil said:
Ah, now this is refreshing honesty. Alyssa doesn't want to fuck someone for seemingly frivolous reasons. Therefore she must be a prostitute. And prostitution is morally wrong and womens fault. So we won't call it prostitution but whoring. Then its a hop skip and jump to saying she deserves what she gets. Assault, beating, rape. Why stop there?Doc Theta Sigma said:
Theres a continuum here. Of attitudes and behaviour. Root of all evil, I'm happier you seem to be on the soft, fluffy end of misogyny rather than the physically violent end. And I certainly hope none of the people involved in this discussion every have to experience the business end of male sexual frustration and sense of privilege. But they are related.
I saw how he looks like and how she looks like. She complained? Wow, from where I am standing, he actually is good looking. I still don't get what her problem was. She called him a liar because he didn't post his title ? Do you have to know beforehand one's interests in order for you not to make fun of him ?
I did indeed give it the attention it deserved, because you are blowing this article out of proportion and looking a larger issue that, while associated, isn't the point. This article is a tongue-in-cheek "apology" by the "women of nerdom" to a guy (who is a nerd king in his own right) who was essentially baited and used by a morally bankrupt woman so that she could write, in a very public way, what she billed an expose on OkCupid. What she did was wrong. Period. The end. She publicly humiliated a man for his hobby, one which several women who are part of this site happen to like and respect, and gave his name so that other women could beware (or something). In actuality I couldn't care less that this is happening between a woman and a man, it could be happening to two men, two women, or two ponies, and it'd still be wrong (though the ponies would be interesting).Samurai Goomba said:
The larger issues of sexism in the gaming industry and women hating/bashing are indeed relevant issues, and very serious ones. Issues that are close to my heart in fact. But that doesn't take away from the fact that this journalist (who by the way, happens to be a woman) did something very wrong and unprofessional in a public forum. Worse of all, she happened to do it to one of "our own". We too (Susan et. all) have a public forum. So guess what? We're calling her out on her shitty behavior. You may agree or disagree (probably the later) but quite frankly, she doesn't get a pass because women have been wronged far more than men.