Analyst Calls The Old Republic a "WoW Clone"

[2xDouble]

The first one was really pretty too. they didn't mention the grind fest for the PvP aspect then either, but since that is their core audience, I full expect it to be in GW2 as well.

No really. Watch those TWIMMO videos, especially 48.

*sigh* are you aware of what subjective means? I see one thing, you will see another, all I see is pretty window dressing and not a lot else, until I can actually play it no amount of videos will convince me of anything other than people know how to make good videos.

This is a subjective judgement, not an objective one since i have no facts only PR and hype.

I do know what subjective means. Do you know what an impartial news broadcast looks like?

Of course not, and you still don't. Even TWIMMO has bias. In fact, up until episode 48, the hosts showed clear bias against Guild Wars 2 in favor of Rift and The Old Republic (which is why I included 46 and 47, which feature GW2 news, but show the observable bias).

Of course all news analysts only say what the corporations they review pay them to say, right Mr. Westbrook?

 

[rsvp42]

wall of text

What are we talking about again? because im totally lost here...

I confess I was starting to lose direction as well. General synopsis of my points:

1) I think the term "WoW clone" is flawed / ill-defined
2) While there are fundamental game design elements at work in both titles, I think TOR differentiates itself in key ways that warrant a more nuanced criticism.
3) This analyst's assessment is his own and not shared by all who have played. We should treat it as we would any opinion (read: consider it, but not treat it as fact).

We might have taken the debate to its logical conclusion though, hence getting lost in our points and counter-points. Agree to disagree?

 

[Mariahsyn]

It's obvious that Dougy is a shill for Blizzard and is trying to keep his female night elf from having any competition. Then again while some people might consider what he said a "bad thing" maybe its a "good thing" in that there are roughly 12 million people who play WoW and some have been playing it for bloody ever! I mean sure some of the mechanics are the same but that's probably because its actually hard to come up with a smooth way of making your characters walk or run forward if you don't press the up arrow or whatever they use. (I do suppose they could make you alternate tapping the left and right ctrl keys tho... *ponders* nah.. I like the arrow better)

I expect that some people have a vested interest in trying to put out bad press about TOR before its released to prevent Blizzard and WoW from losing market share. The Old Republic is going to be the big new player on the block and Blizzard is afraid because several people have already commented on this; TOR is a Science Fiction / Fantasy alternative to the same old Night Elf Stripper competitions and going out into the woods to slay an insane number of wild boars so you can level your party up to go fight the guy who is seemingly unkillable and does that boogie nights dance before wasting your party.

=P

 

[Fursnake]

I wonder if he even got a chance to play SWTOR or if he has ever played WoW, if no to either than he shouldn't be sounding off. And even if he has played either game I couldn't care less, I'll determine whether I like it or not when I play it for myself.

 

[demouse]

My only question is why it took them this long to figure it out.

I started thinking it would be a WoW clone as soon as I saw the first gameplay, and seeing that the mount system was lifed directly from WoW make me 100% sure about 4 months ago.

 

[fundayz]

But what I'm saying is that a single person's gut-level reaction to a game isn't any more significant just because it happens to be his job. It's still a personal opinion based on his playtime. There are thousands of opinions out there with varying degrees of praise and criticism. My own time with it felt quite different than WoW on a gut level, even if I ignore all the obvious differences.

I remember when The Incredibles came out, the first review I read in a local paper was pretty negative. This was a man who's livelihood depends on understanding films and critiquing them, yet today The Incredibles is still one of my favorite films. Was that reviewer "wrong?" No, but his review was ultimately irrelevant to my experience with the movie. I'm not saying TOR will be the same thing, but I am saying that we don't need to put too much stock into one guy's opinion, even if it is his job. We should just read it and file it away, maybe bring it up later if we end up agreeing with it. We don't need to act smug towards the "fanboys" as if one guy's opinion is gospel.

I don't understand why you think this analysts' opinion is a "gut-level reaction". He is the vice president of a multimillion dollar investment group, it's not likely that he would make a comment like that without putting some thought into it.

Also, your metaphor with the movie reviewer isn't valid because the analyst wasn't making a judgement about SWTOR's quality or financial future. All he did was make a objective statement. Heck, as far as we know he might fully agree with BioWare's decision of making SWTOR highly derivative of WoW.

And of course his word shouldn't be taken as gospel or as the final say so, NOBODY's should. All I'M saying is that his statements carry more weight than the average person who got their hands on the demo.

The first one was really pretty too. they didn't mention the grind fest for the PvP aspect then either, but since that is their core audience, I full expect it to be in GW2 as well.

EVERYTHING, from skills to gear to traits, will be unlocked from level 1 in STRUCTURED PvP(i.e. Arenas from the first game). Anet wants everyone to be in a completely level playing field in structured PvP, unlike the first game where only level was taken into consideration(i.e. weapons/armor and skills were still subpar if you hadn't unlocked them).

Also, GW2 hasn't been delayed... they've never given a target season for release.

 

[Kroxile]

Oh lawd, an MMO where you move with WASD, have hotkeys, and do quests! IT MUST BE A WOW CLONE!

I seriously hate reviewers these days...

 

[Saelune]

What? Its an MMO? Yes, yes it is an MMO. Sheesh, the term WoW clone needs to die. Any game that fits the MMORPG genre is a WoW clone, just as any sandbox game is a GTA clone. Sometimes people want a cheese burger, sometimes they want a bacon burger, both are burgers though.

 

[rsvp42]

I don't understand why you think this analysts' opinion is a "gut-level reaction". He is the vice president of a multimillion dollar investment group, it's not likely that he would make a comment like that without putting some thought into it.

Also, your metaphor with the movie reviewer isn't valid because the analyst wasn't making a judgement about SWTOR's quality or financial future. All he did was make a objective statement. Heck, as far as we know he might fully agree with BioWare's decision of making SWTOR highly derivative of WoW.

And of course his word shouldn't be taken as gospel or as the final say so, NOBODY's should. All I'M saying is that his statements carry more weight than the average person who got their hands on the demo.

The gut-level reaction is that he was unimpressed. The "WoW-clone" statement is just his way of articulating that, based on whatever knowledge he has of WoW. He did not make an objective statement, he expressed his opinion. Yes that opinion is as vaild as any other, but not significantly more. The fact that others have played it and didn't have the same negative reaction is evidence that he is expressing an opinion.

It's obviously true that TOR uses MMO gameplay systems that WoW helped establish and popularize. You'll find no debate from me there. What is subjective is how acutely one feels those similarities in gameplay and how enjoyable the vastly different elements (like quest presentation, lore, setting) are to the player. Some players (like myself) find completely new classes, abilities, weapons, and strategies to be meaningful changes. I can play a similar combat system and enjoy it much more in one game over another based on those things. I also find TOR's changes to quest presentation to be more appealing than the standard text-box model. The flow of quests may be very satisfying, as well as the pacing of the action. The lore, setting and tone can also have significant effects on my enjoyment of a game. For many, the similarities to WoW will be incidental and unobtrusive, but for some--like this analyst--they will have a negative impact. Who knows, maybe it'll bug a lot of folks, but we won't know until after release.

And while it's true that his position requires a higher standard of analysis than your average gamer, his opinion of his play time is not more valid than anyone else's. Someone who had fun playing the game is not wrong because some analyst didn't. People are different. All I expect from an industry analyst is a solid understanding of trends and marketability. I don't trust his opinion any more than my best best gamer friend (who works at Publix, so why should I trust what he says, amirite?). Hell, just ask analyst Michael Pachter. There was that article here on the Escapist where he talks about being wrong as part of the job. Analysts' jobs are to predict earnings and be generally accurate about it on average, which doesn't always mean they're right.

Edit:

snip

You said it first and more succinctly. Very true.

 

[Saelune]

What? Its an MMO? Yes, yes it is an MMO. Sheesh, the term WoW clone needs to die. Any game that fits the MMORPG genre is a WoW clone, just as any sandbox game is a GTA clone.

no an MMO that mimic's WoW on too many fronts is a wow clone. DDO is not a wow clone by virtue of being an MMO but WAR is. yeah WoW 'clone" is an inaccurate statement for the product but not on the intent of the publishers. They set out to clone WoW down to its 12 million subscribers so they could make bundles of cash.

So in part "woW clone' the statement dosen't need to die it needs to quit being demonized. 'Oh you think its a wow clone cuz its an MMO" is bull shit. If an MMO reminds someone of WoW enough that they are willing to call it a WoW clone(or an attempt to clone wow) it might be a wow copy. If a hundred or so(scale that how you see fit) say it is it probably is.

What needs to go are people that go demonizing a mans take on a game because he didn't like what eh saw, people that glorify him because he didn't like it, and publishers pushing the old WOW template on developers. Because without those "wow clone' would not exist or be relevant in any way. If i missed an item that needs to go on that list of things to GTFO please say so.

But do not say 'Wow clone" is anything similar to an unfounded statement when a game appears to be trying to copy WoW for the sake of leeching its success and do not say the statement needs to go. Because frankly that label for all the demonetization it has on its back is correct. 'This game was made to muscle in directly on WoWs subscriber base" is an alright thing to say. Have you seen EA's history? They want to muscle in on any action they see(again WAR as an example, Battlefields competition with CoD, Origin) and it is not exactly far fetched to expect this to be for the same reason.


If you excuse me i think someone just said one form of music was inherently better than another and should be vaporized so i must go and butcher someone through youtube.

My real problem is how its apparently treated differently with WoW and MMOs than every other genre. FPS, RTS, RPGs, Racers, Fighters, e.t.c. all do the same thing. Only difference is WoW is a settled in monopoly. Ofcourse there are clones! Just as there are a bunch of clones of Call of Duty which itself started as...a clone!
As for saying its an MMO makes it a WoW clone, ALL the tropes of what makes an MMO is in WoW. So by having the same tropes that make a game an MMORPG, you are going to HAVE to copy WoW. Just as a shooter is gonna have to copy Call of Duty a good chunk. Only way for an MMO to not be considered a WoW clone is to make it....not an MMO essentially.

 

[mtk2a]

MMOs? Derivative? REALLY??

For the n'th time: You can't tell the difference between mainstream MMOs from a cursory examination of controls and UI elements. They are like that because it works.

The important differences (and the ones *I* am interested in) are the ones that are not apparent to ANYONE until they have played the game exhaustively. IE, are at the "end-game".

These aspects include the economy, random player interaction, guild dynamics, raiding, pvp, class balance. And even more, harder-to-describe aspects than these are also important to serious MMO players.

Some "market analyst" telling me that the game "seems like wow" honestly gives me no new information at all.

I'm not saying that TOR IS a "major step forward" in MMO design, but it COULD BE because of something that you won't see while playing a 10 minute demo.

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

Totally called this one.

Also, seconding someone else's comment about following in WHO's footsteps.

Let's all play DDO instead. *flame shield engaged*

I actually quite liked DDO.

 

[flying_gazzelle]

Ddo is boss. I found an item at level 2 that was worth several million platinum. Levelling up with best gear possible is boss

 

[Ishiro32]

What? Its an MMO? Yes, yes it is an MMO. Sheesh, the term WoW clone needs to die. Any game that fits the MMORPG genre is a WoW clone, just as any sandbox game is a GTA clone. Sometimes people want a cheese burger, sometimes they want a bacon burger, both are burgers though.

God how i hate that statement. Western MMO genre is in big stagnation and some people think that's the way that it should be. Are you blind? Before WoW the MMOrpg had a lot of variation. MUonline (diablo clone), Ragnarok Online (the best game in the world), Ultima etc. ... After the WoW succes (which copied a lot of ideas from other games) each western company does the same game with new skins (and maybe few new mechanics), because it's safe. They play safe because it sells. It's BORING! It is stagnation. WoW age is ending (wow population decrease), and i don't understand how company may think that players who were bored with WoW will be playing another WoW-like game.
The game that had second place in MMO genre was Guild Wars, because it was diffrent. Look at korean MMO's. Continent of the Ninth or dragon nest. I played both for some time. I stopped because lack of good conection, but games at least tried something new.

 

[adamtm]

1) I think the term "WoW clone" is flawed / ill-defined
2) While there are fundamental game design elements at work in both titles, I think TOR differentiates itself in key ways that warrant a more nuanced criticism.
3) This analyst's assessment is his own and not shared by all who have played. We should treat it as we would any opinion (read: consider it, but not treat it as fact).

We might have taken the debate to its logical conclusion though, hence getting lost in our points and counter-points. Agree to disagree?

1) Ill defined like anything else, hell we have problems properly defining a genre like Science Fiction which is around for ages. I've seen people go up in flames when calling Star Wars either scifi or fantasy. Its as well defined as it can get without a oxford dictionary definition. I've never seen anyone seriously argue that WoW Clone = WoW with new textures. Like i said, its a mental shortcut, a heuristic to convey a very big (sometimes abstract) concept in a short amount of time. WoW became a certain concept of design.

2) I can not agree to this as I did not play the game and only can go by what ive seen in press releases and online, which didnt warrant that kind of nuanced criticism as i tried to point out earlier. What I'd like to know is where you draw the line of what is nuanced enough to not be a WoW clone? Therefore name an MMO that is in your opinion a WoW clone.

3) It goes without saying that the assessment is his own, all assessments are primarily ones own and people can agree or disagree with them. There can be a consensus or disagreement however this does not impact the truth of a statement. I.e. if you are basing the accuracy of a statement of its popularity you are committing a fallacy called Argumentum ad Populum.
No one on this forum, as far as i have seen, has treated the statement as fact, they either agreed or disagreed with it. I happen to agree with the assessment.
However I'd like to add that his position and education make his opinion weighted, as i would treat an opinion of an Nuclear Physicist concerning the LHC with more weight than I would the same opinion heard from a Geologist. This is not an appeal to authority, its simply a consideration that he is qualified, im still not treating his opinion as truth.