Analyst Calls The Old Republic a "WoW Clone"

[fundayz]

Bleh my browser done goofed

 

[Amphoteric]

Yeah whatever, I'll be buying this game regardless of what anyone says about it. If there is no kotor 3 then this will have to do.

At least it is set in the awesome Kotor Universe, to me KotOR never felt like a Star Wars game, it felt like something completely new.

 

[rsvp42]

Doesn't make his personal opinion any more relevant. We don't know what his experience with MMOs is and there's no reason to take his WoW-clone claim any more seriously than another player. What I mean is that we can throw this blurb in with all the rest and leave it at that. No reason to give him more attention than anyone else who has played it.

Actually it does. Unlike the average player, his livelihood and reputation depend on his ability to analyze and make predictions about upcoming products. Sure, his job focuses more on the financial aspect of media but you still need to understand said media in order to make accurate predictions.

The fact that he an experienced entertainment analyst and vice president of a reputable investment group gives more credibility to his statements than the average person who got a hands-on.

We don't know how his experience with MMO's but considering that a certain current MMO is one of, if not the, most profitable entertainment products and that he specializes in media and entertainment, I think it's a safe to assume he knows a thing or two.

But what I'm saying is that a single person's gut-level reaction to a game isn't any more significant just because it happens to be his job. It's still a personal opinion based on his playtime. There are thousands of opinions out there with varying degrees of praise and criticism. My own time with it felt quite different than WoW on a gut level, even if I ignore all the obvious differences.

I remember when The Incredibles came out, the first review I read in a local paper was pretty negative. This was a man who's livelihood depends on understanding films and critiquing them, yet today The Incredibles is still one of my favorite films. Was that reviewer "wrong?" No, but his review was ultimately irrelevant to my experience with the movie. I'm not saying TOR will be the same thing, but I am saying that we don't need to put too much stock into one guy's opinion, even if it is his job. We should just read it and file it away, maybe bring it up later if we end up agreeing with it. We don't need to act smug towards the "fanboys" as if one guy's opinion is gospel.

 

[2xDouble]

I'm sorry Bioware. I liked Mass Effect 1 and 2; I love Star Wars; but I just can't buy this game as it is now. The only impressive things about it are the cutscenes, stumbling down SquareEnix's rocky road (and we all know how that turned out, don't we XIV?). The gameplay doesn't hold attention (during the 1h30m "leaked footage", the dude spent at least 30 minutes of it standing around not playing the game; clearly not reading skill/quest descriptions or studying the map either), and the quest objectives are uncreative at best (kill 10 robots, kill 15 lizard things, collect 8 random drops from specific mob alpha... really?). And not one word on the touted space combat, which is pretty much SW:TOR's only other unique feature (a bad sign to Halo: Reach fans). Maybe this would have been better single/co-op player KotOR 3, or another TV series.

I'm not saying it doesn't look like fun, but there are more impressive games out there for my money.

 

[Britisheagle]

Aren't many MMO's the same? I'm sorry but I bet that WoW stole some ideas from other games out before them

Yes they are and that's the problem. SWTOR is just adding to the pile of unimaginative, cookie-cutter MMO's out there. That's why many people, including myself, have just moved away from the MMO genre in general: nothing truly new has come out.

Sure new games have come out, but they all play the same.

Yes but, unfortuantly, being different isn't what the majority of gamers want. I do, I like games that try something different even if the idea is rubbish, but most, even critics, dont.

Think about every FPS that has been released within the last 2 years. All of them, even a game from its own franchise, has been analysed against CoD, a game I don't think is perfect. People do and for that reason all FPS games are compared with it. Flashpoint, an interesting take on war games was shot down, Borderlands was positively recieved but still, apparently, wasn't as good as CoD.

WoW is massive. Its loved by many and has a strong fan base. To get people to see their game, Bioware are making their game accessible to those who are fans of WoW. Its a smart move but at the end of the day Star Wars theme on an otherwise overrated game? Its bound to do well. I think I will have the latter, as a fan of KoTOR and most things Star Wars.

Personally, I agree. Different would be better and hopefully if this game does well they will follow it up with a sequel that will be unique and redefine the genre. I ain't holding my breath, but I can hope.

 

[nightwolf667]

Finally and most importantly this isn't the same Bioware that brought us KOTOR and KOTOR 2.

Well, technically Bioware didn't bring us KOTOR 2. That was Obsidian. Doesn't change the fact that it's a great game, but you know, they don't get to lay claim to it. (Though they do steal from it and Neverwinter Nights 2 a lot...)

Everything else you said though,I agree with. This game is being heralded as new and innovative and whatever, but at the end of the day it's not really new or innovative. Oh, sure, it's completely voiced! Well, sorry Bioware, but I skip the cut scenes after I've seen them for the first time. (With the exception of KOTOR 2...oh, no Kreia wasn't you? Never mind.) So what else do you have? WOW?

It doesn't help that somewhere between $200,000,000 and $300,000,000 have already gone into this game. It doesn't help that it needs 1,000,000 paying subscribers (not just play it for a month and run folks) to start breaking even. It's going to have to compete with WOW, that other Star Wars MMO (if what happened with Sony doesn't kill it), and the new up and comer Rifts. Supposedly, Rifts has managed to pull 600,000 players away from WOW which is a feat all by itself.

Bioware is being cannibalized by EA over this. Dragon Age 2 was released in a little less or a little over a year, compared to Dragon Age which took something like 5 years. They are being forced to perform because when the Old Republic fails (and it will fail) it'll be a serious black eye for EA. It will probably mean the end of Bioware. The Old Republic is like the kid who's trying too hard to be cool.

Also, Star Trek Online's new Season 4 update (which can be played on Tribble) is bringing an awesome shooter mode (with scope!) that can be toggled on and off. In my opinion (which counts for nothing I suppose), playing a liberated Borg is way cooler than playing a Sith. I can assimilate people. XD

 

[Roofstone]

Basically he is saying that this game is an mmo, WoW is the norm for these games anyway.

 

[Saviordd1]

I really HOPE this guys just stupid because I'm looking to TOR to get me back into MMO's, PLEASE bioware i believe in you

 

[Hoplon]

Just out of curiosity, what do you not find interesting about GW2?

I ask because GW2, like SWTOR, is aiming to provide a quality RPG story worthy of a single player RPG as well as pushing innovative combat, lack of a trinity, dynamic content, World PvP, experimentation-based crafting AND it doesn't have a subscription free.

I just don't see any reason Not to try out GW2.

I played guild wars 1? because that was a horrible grind fest to unlock things for PvP. SUCH FUN. also GW2 is so delayed now it's not funny.

 

[Ashadow700]

Thanks analyst guy. I needed that.

I just finished Kotor 1 a while ago and I have been getting waaay to excited over The old Republic for my own good. Now I just need to find someone out there who have tried it and will tell me that the game out right sucks, so I can be positively suprised if it in fact turns out to be good.

 

[2xDouble]

Just out of curiosity, what do you not find interesting about GW2?

I ask because GW2, like SWTOR, is aiming to provide a quality RPG story worthy of a single player RPG as well as pushing innovative combat, lack of a trinity, dynamic content, World PvP, experimentation-based crafting AND it doesn't have a subscription free.

I just don't see any reason Not to try out GW2.

I played guild wars 1? because that was a horrible grind fest to unlock things for PvP. SUCH FUN. also GW2 is so delayed now it's not funny.

Guild Wars 2 is exactly on schedule, with alpha testing pretty much right now and closed beta tests slated for later this year.

Guild Wars 2 is not Guild Wars 1.

Spoiler: Just look at it.

This Week in MMO: 46 [http://www.gamebreaker.tv/this-week-in-mmo-46-world-vs-world/], 47 [http://www.gamebreaker.tv/this-week-in-mmo-47-lions-arch/], and 48 [http://www.gamebreaker.tv/this-week-in-mmo-48-divesting/]. (From a SWTOR fan, no less.)

 

[rainbowunicorns]

WoW's interface and quest system came from RPGs; things are WoW clones because they are MMO RPGs, and as such have the same roots. Admittedly, they probably draw from WoW instead of RPGs, but it's not like WoW did something revolutionary (there were even MMO RPGs before WoW). Further, WoW is the most polished MMO RPG I have experienced or seen, so trying to be like it isn't exactly a failing.

One thing from World of Warcraft I've yet to see copied is that the user interface can be significantly modified; I absolutely loved that about WoW, and have found lacking within the first 20 or so hours of playing any other MMO (or RPG for that matter).
I think EVE is introducing it in their next major upgrade, which I definitely look forward to.

 

[adamtm]

The criteria to make a WoW clone:

-a trinity based class system
-a level system designed to separate players into tiers of content
-a quest system based on gear-dependency (i.e. you play for gear to reach a next gear-tier)
-round-based dice roll combat (no hitboxes, no skill combat)
-non-player based economy
-grouping based around the class trinity
-instanced content based on the class trinity (dungeons)
-pve raid content
-separation of leveling and end-game content (leveling -> raiding)
-direct control over one character (as opposed to squads etc.)
-trinity-based talent trees
-leveling-content-zones
-PVE combat focus

Not to nitpick for nitpicking's sake, but you mentioned trinity three times when "trinity-based class system" covers all the rest. Also "direct control over one character" seems like a flimsy addition meant to pad out the list. And saying that the combat doesn't require skill doesn't seem accurate, though you're right in that it isn't an "active" roly-poly sort of deal. Oh and "a level system designed to separate players into tiers of content" seems to be the same bullet point as "leveling-content-zones." I understand the point you're making, just trying to weed out some repetition and whatnot.

No all my points are exactly as they should be.

You can have instanced content without trinity for example, or mmorpgs without control over one character.

Take Atlantica Online for example, you have your main character and up to i think 10 mercenaries that you equip, level and progress like you would your main character, its a surprisingly deep game. You take control over those characters at the same time, as an army. Other games like this include Shattered Galaxy, Elements of War or a Drone specialized character in Eve Online (there is a difference between a pet/companion and controlling 5+ drones/mercenaries in tactical situations)

Another example in EvE is instance grouping without any pre-requisite for the trinity to be present (Wormholes), in WoW you cant so much as step in the dungeon without at least one healer and tank (with the new dungeon finder)

No skill combat means that you do not use your own skill to hit the target (as in it autotargets and auto-calculates dmg based on stats), not that it takes no skill to play the game.

"a level system designed to separate players into tiers of content" seems to be the same bullet point as "leveling-content-zones." - no it isnt. Theres a difference between a level system designed to separate players into tiers and content zones, both can exist separate of eachother.

In WoW you have content tiers i.e. Tier 1 Raid, etc where you can not enter the raid unless you reach a certain lvl prerequisite. In Perpetuum you can join raids at lvl1, if you are going to be effective is not the point.
Leveling-Content-Zones are zones separated by level tiers that you -can- enter without any penalty even if not in the right level. I.E i can run to high lvl zones at lvl1 if i want. Furthermore these zones are -specifically- designed to take you from lvl x to lvl y. Not all games follow this, in EvE online there is no zone-progression at all (sector policy may vary but there is no "go to sector X if you are a cruiser/lvl5 gunnery")

PS: Fanboys apparently think that "WoW Clone" means that a game is inherently bad or something, i cant fathom why.

Okay, so apparently "clone" means something different when you put a game's name in front of it. I don't get that, but okay. However, the negative connotations of the term are implicit in its typical usage. This analyst-guy isn't using it as a term of endearment or respect for its quality/appeal. He's not saying "it's a WoW clone in that it will succeed greatly and appeal to the same audience." He--and just about everyone else that trots out the term--are using it negatively to say what they really mean to say: dated and familiar.

Ultimately, a large number of MMO gamers will pass on TOR. This is inevitable. Just as a large number of RTS gamers probably passed on Starcraft 2 when they called it a step backwards in RTS design or too traditional (amazing what good scenario design and balance can do for the success of such games). TOR is a traditional themepark MMO with some more modern elements mixed in, set in a different universe with a different story, based on a different aesthetic. Those who like that style of game will enjoy a fully-voiced story that differs in tone and specific events with each playthrough. Those that don't like that and think it's too dated and familiar have some great alternatives in games like GW2 and TERA, assuming high fantasy is still their thing.

I mean even if we agree on what the term "WoW clone" means and we agree that TOR fits that definition, this analyst failed to mention how that means, as you said, "that a game is inherently bad." He clearly thinks it feels old-fashioned, but doesn't elaborate and instead relies on dismissive exaggeration, calling it "a World of Warcraft clone with Star Wars character skins and the BioWare RPG nice/nasty dialogue tree mechanism bolted on for non-player character conversations." The conversation mechanic pervades every area of the game and does away with the old quest-text accept/decline box. The "skins" he's talking about are 17 new worlds full of completely unique content in a completely different IP (and not like Rift vs. WoW different, as those are both high fantasy, mostly low-tech IPs). He's being dismissive to an astonishing degree.

To expand on my biological analogy in the other thread (im sure you remember).

Remember clone-sheep Dolly? It was a clone, a specimen created from the exact DNA as her "mother", yet this sheep was different, it was an individual and had individual characteristics.
The same with TOR, the DNA is the same as WoW but it has unique characteristics.

If you really think that "clone" means "exact copy" you are either wrong and misguided or are trying to create a strawman to shoot down easily.
Nobody is arguing that Bioware pirated the WoW code and re-skinned it.

Being dismissive is the mans right, nobody went "but Gearbox Software and 3D Realms worked 12 years on Duke Nukem Forever, how dare you say its a bland shooter! You are dismissing the work of hundreds!"
The amount of work or non-work Bioware put into the game is not the issue of his statement nor should it be the issue of conversation at all.

He is treating TOR as WoW Plus, which is absolutely his right and correct, also if you read his statement carefully you can clearly see its in context to "Despite promises from EA/Bioware that the title represents a major step forward in MMO design,"

In that case being dismissive is understandable.

 

[Hoplon]

Just out of curiosity, what do you not find interesting about GW2?

I ask because GW2, like SWTOR, is aiming to provide a quality RPG story worthy of a single player RPG as well as pushing innovative combat, lack of a trinity, dynamic content, World PvP, experimentation-based crafting AND it doesn't have a subscription free.

I just don't see any reason Not to try out GW2.

I played guild wars 1? because that was a horrible grind fest to unlock things for PvP. SUCH FUN. also GW2 is so delayed now it's not funny.

Guild Wars 2 is exactly on schedule, with alpha testing pretty much right now and closed beta tests slated for later this year.

Guild Wars 2 is not Guild Wars 1.

Spoiler: Just look at it.

This Week in MMO: 46 [http://www.gamebreaker.tv/this-week-in-mmo-46-world-vs-world/], 47 [http://www.gamebreaker.tv/this-week-in-mmo-47-lions-arch/], and 48 [http://www.gamebreaker.tv/this-week-in-mmo-48-divesting/]. (From a SWTOR fan, no less.)

The first one was really pretty too. they didn't mention the grind fest for the PvP aspect then either, but since that is their core audience, I full expect it to be in GW2 as well.

 

[rsvp42]

No all my points are exactly as they should be.

Yeah, but you kind of padded them out to make the list look longer. I think splitting up "trinity system" into three points is splitting hairs. But it's not important. Like I said, I was nitpicking.

I'm not sure why Eve keeps being brought up. It's a spaceflight sandbox game, whereas TOR is a ground combat themepark RPG. To be honest the only similarities that are substantial and worth mentioning are the trinity system, the PvE focus, and the focus on loot. WoW and TOR do share these things and they're what shape the experience. As such, they're very much worth discussing in the "clone" debate, but all other similarities are incidental.

No skill combat means that you do not use your own skill to hit the target (as in it autotargets and auto-calculates dmg based on stats), not that it takes no skill to play the game.

The main difference is in what it takes to miss. Action combat tends to involve more dodging and aiming, but damage is still calculated through stats. TOR doesn't quite have the spatial dynamism of a game like DCUO, but I found the tactics to be engaging and many abilities were quite satisfying to use, either because of their animation, their effects on enemies, or both.

Theres a difference between a level system designed to separate players into tiers and content zones, both can exist separate of eachother.

In WoW you have content tiers i.e. Tier 1 Raid, etc where you can not enter the raid unless you reach a certain lvl prerequisite. In Perpetuum you can join raids at lvl1, if you are going to be effective is not the point.
Leveling-Content-Zones are zones separated by level tiers that you -can- enter without any penalty even if not in the right level. I.E i can run to high lvl zones at lvl1 if i want. Furthermore these zones are -specifically- designed to take you from lvl x to lvl y. Not all games follow this, in EvE online there is no zone-progression at all (sector policy may vary but there is no "go to sector X if you are a cruiser/lvl5 gunnery")

Sounds like the difference between being artificially gated and practically gated. Invisible walls vs. soft walls of difficulty. For the record, I believe the latest word was that upon receiving your ship in TOR (some time around level 10), you have access to every planet. Technically a level 1 in WoW can go anywhere in the open world too, it's just really hard. I don't know what entry requirements TOR will have for flashpoints or operations, so you could be right on that account.

To expand on my biological analogy in the other thread (im sure you remember).

Remember clone-sheep Dolly? It was a clone, a specimen created from the exact DNA as her "mother", yet this sheep was different, it was an individual and had individual characteristics.
The same with TOR, the DNA is the same as WoW but it has unique characteristics.

If you really think that "clone" means "exact copy" you are either wrong and misguided or are trying to create a strawman to shoot down easily.
Nobody is arguing that Bioware pirated the WoW code and re-skinned it.

Strangely, that's the implication when people say it. They're suggesting that it's "Azeroth with a fresh coat of paint," like this article interprets. I don't think a clone is an "exact copy" because I examined the distinction between "clone" and "facsimile" earlier in this thread. The cloned sheep was still a sheep and was genetically the same as the source of its DNA (assuming it was a true clone). If WoW is a sheep, then TOR is bear (ignore any animal symbolism in this metaphor): sure it's a mammal, has fur, craps outside, maybe even lives in a similar climate, but "clone" would misrepresent what the bear is, regardless of the animals' shared DNA.

Being dismissive is the mans right, nobody went "but Gearbox Software and 3D Realms worked 12 years on Duke Nukem Forever, how dare you say its a bland shooter! You are dismissing the work of hundreds!"
The amount of work or non-work Bioware put into the game is not the issue of his statement nor should it be the issue of conversation at all.

He is treating TOR as WoW Plus, which is absolutely his right and correct, also if you read his statement carefully you can clearly see its in context to "Despite promises from EA/Bioware that the title represents a major step forward in MMO design,"

In that case being dismissive is understandable.

It's not "absolutely [...] correct" anyone calling it "WoW plus" is either willfully ignoring/dismissing the differences or they're using some extremely lax criteria for what counts as "the same." Duke Nukem is a separate issue because by many accounts, it's simply bad and poorly designed. Most reviewers have said no such thing concerning TOR and usually take aim at the game's marketing and promises (if they say anything bad at all). Even the worst reviews haven't called it a bad game, simply one that doesn't revolutionize like perhaps it hoped to, which is a hype & marketing issue for those reviewers.

I'm not asking people to like it, but too often I see people cry "WoW-clone" without understanding or articulating what they mean. That's an easier pill to swallow when playing a game like Rift, but with TOR, the differences are so glaringly obvious that you can't run to the same old "clone" thing without at least elaborating.

 

[rsvp42]

The first one was really pretty too. they didn't mention the grind fest for the PvP aspect then either, but since that is their core audience, I full expect it to be in GW2 as well.

they also don't mention how small some of the zones were in GW1, or how there were loading screens between each zone, which is still in GW2 i might add.

Which is something I'm curious about. Any word on the size of GW2's world?

 

[2xDouble]

The first one was really pretty too. they didn't mention the grind fest for the PvP aspect then either, but since that is their core audience, I full expect it to be in GW2 as well.

No really. Watch those TWIMMO videos, especially 48.

 

[Thedayrecker]

Still.... it's Star Wars!

And KotOR!

And Bioware!

 

[2xDouble]

Which is something I'm curious about. Any word on the size of GW2's world?

Yes. Martin Kerstein told us that a run across a relatively small zone, fighting only when absolutely necessary, took about 15 minutes.

Spoiler: This run took only 5.

This run, same conditions, took 5 minutes on foot.

There are approximately 25 zones, not counting underwater (which has been stated as "half the content"), and excluding the instanced areas such as your Home Instance and Dungeons. Moreover, and more importantly, each zone will be fully populated and jam-packed with things to do, events, etc..

Someone on MMORPG.com [http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/306052/page/1] did an in-depth analysis of relative world size, including many MMO's. The thread is a fascinating discussion.

 

[Hoplon]

The first one was really pretty too. they didn't mention the grind fest for the PvP aspect then either, but since that is their core audience, I full expect it to be in GW2 as well.

No really. Watch those TWIMMO videos, especially 48.

*sigh* are you aware of what subjective means? I see one thing, you will see another, all I see is pretty window dressing and not a lot else, until I can actually play it no amount of videos will convince me of anything other than people know how to make good videos.

This is a subjective judgement, not an objective one since i have no facts only PR and hype.