rsvp42 said:
adamtm said:
The criteria to make a WoW clone:
-a trinity based class system
-a level system designed to separate players into tiers of content
-a quest system based on gear-dependency (i.e. you play for gear to reach a next gear-tier)
-round-based dice roll combat (no hitboxes, no skill combat)
-non-player based economy
-grouping based around the class trinity
-instanced content based on the class trinity (dungeons)
-pve raid content
-separation of leveling and end-game content (leveling -> raiding)
-direct control over one character (as opposed to squads etc.)
-trinity-based talent trees
-leveling-content-zones
-PVE combat focus
Not to nitpick for nitpicking's sake, but you mentioned trinity three times when "trinity-based class system" covers all the rest. Also "direct control over one character" seems like a flimsy addition meant to pad out the list. And saying that the combat doesn't require skill doesn't seem accurate, though you're right in that it isn't an "active" roly-poly sort of deal. Oh and "a level system designed to separate players into tiers of content" seems to be the same bullet point as "leveling-content-zones." I understand the point you're making, just trying to weed out some repetition and whatnot.
No all my points are exactly as they should be.
You can have instanced content without trinity for example, or mmorpgs without control over one character.
Take Atlantica Online for example, you have your main character and up to i think 10 mercenaries that you equip, level and progress like you would your main character, its a surprisingly deep game. You take control over those characters at the same time, as an army. Other games like this include Shattered Galaxy, Elements of War or a Drone specialized character in Eve Online (there is a difference between a pet/companion and controlling 5+ drones/mercenaries in tactical situations)
Another example in EvE is instance grouping without any pre-requisite for the trinity to be present (Wormholes), in WoW you cant so much as step in the dungeon without at least one healer and tank (with the new dungeon finder)
No skill combat means that you do not use your own skill to hit the target (as in it autotargets and auto-calculates dmg based on stats), not that it takes no skill to play the game.
"a level system designed to separate players into tiers of content" seems to be the same bullet point as "leveling-content-zones." - no it isnt. Theres a difference between a level
system designed to separate players into tiers and content zones, both can exist separate of eachother.
In WoW you have content tiers i.e. Tier 1 Raid, etc where you can not enter the raid unless you reach a certain lvl prerequisite. In Perpetuum you can join raids at lvl1, if you are going to be effective is not the point.
Leveling-Content-Zones are zones separated by level tiers that you -can- enter without any penalty even if not in the right level. I.E i can run to high lvl zones at lvl1 if i want. Furthermore these zones are -specifically- designed to take you from lvl x to lvl y. Not all games follow this, in EvE online there is no zone-progression at all (sector policy may vary but there is no "go to sector X if you are a cruiser/lvl5 gunnery")
rsvp42 said:
adamtm said:
PS: Fanboys apparently think that "WoW Clone" means that a game is inherently bad or something, i cant fathom why.
Okay, so apparently "clone" means something different when you put a game's name in front of it. I don't get that, but okay. However, the negative connotations of the term are implicit in its typical usage. This analyst-guy isn't using it as a term of endearment or respect for its quality/appeal. He's not saying "it's a WoW clone in that it will succeed greatly and appeal to the same audience." He--and just about everyone else that trots out the term--are using it negatively to say what they really mean to say: dated and familiar.
Ultimately, a large number of MMO gamers will pass on TOR. This is inevitable. Just as a large number of RTS gamers probably passed on Starcraft 2 when they called it a step backwards in RTS design or too traditional (amazing what good scenario design and balance can do for the success of such games). TOR is a traditional themepark MMO with some more modern elements mixed in, set in a different universe with a different story, based on a different aesthetic. Those who like that style of game will enjoy a fully-voiced story that differs in tone and specific events with each playthrough. Those that don't like that and think it's too dated and familiar have some great alternatives in games like GW2 and TERA, assuming high fantasy is still their thing.
I mean even if we agree on what the term "WoW clone" means and we agree that TOR fits that definition, this analyst failed to mention how that means, as you said, "that a game is inherently bad." He clearly thinks it feels old-fashioned, but doesn't elaborate and instead relies on dismissive exaggeration, calling it "a World of Warcraft clone with Star Wars character skins and the BioWare RPG nice/nasty dialogue tree mechanism bolted on for non-player character conversations." The conversation mechanic pervades every area of the game and does away with the old quest-text accept/decline box. The "skins" he's talking about are 17 new worlds full of completely unique content in a completely different IP (and not like Rift vs. WoW different, as those are both high fantasy, mostly low-tech IPs). He's being dismissive to an astonishing degree.
To expand on my biological analogy in the other thread (im sure you remember).
Remember clone-sheep Dolly? It was a clone, a specimen created from the exact DNA as her "mother", yet this sheep was different, it was an individual and had individual characteristics.
The same with TOR, the DNA is the same as WoW but it has unique characteristics.
If you really think that "clone" means "exact copy" you are either wrong and misguided or are trying to create a strawman to shoot down easily.
Nobody is arguing that Bioware pirated the WoW code and re-skinned it.
Being dismissive is the mans right, nobody went "but Gearbox Software and 3D Realms worked 12 years on Duke Nukem Forever, how dare you say its a bland shooter! You are dismissing the work of hundreds!"
The amount of work or non-work Bioware put into the game is not the issue of his statement nor should it be the issue of conversation at all.
He is treating TOR as WoW Plus, which is absolutely his right and correct, also if you read his statement carefully you can clearly see its in context to
"Despite promises from EA/Bioware that the title represents a major step forward in MMO design,"
In that case being dismissive is understandable.
