The Koch brothers are probably the best liars on the planet because they lie to the group of people that wouldn't care how much money they put in the pockets of politicians or listen to anything calling them the financiers of every libertarian movement in the past two decades. There is plenty of proof but nobody to listen to it all.
Anonymous Uncovers Corruption in Wisconsin Labor Dispute
- Thread starter Greg Tito
- Start date
I don't know about this. I suspect there's all kinds of twisted shit going down with the situation in Wisconson, largely because I always suspect that but . . .
Anonymous is drawing too much attention to itself. Before, calling themselves Anonymous was a protection because anyone who doesn't punch in a name when posting is anonymous, but as they get more involved, the Gov is going to come down on them hard and a lot of people are going to get caught up in it because of the "anonymous" name.
While I want to agree with their purpose, they're being too damn open about their activities and it's going to get them fucked. And I wonder what they're really up to, sometimes. It's romantic to think of them as some renegades fighting against a corrupt system, but that's exactly why I don't trust them as much as I want to. Their methods are total vigilantism, even assuming they have good intentions and despite what comics say, vigilantes are just as much a problem as criminals, because it breaks the system. I don't think the system is yet broken enough to warrant this kind of blatantly illegal action against the government, but it may scare the government enough that it drives them to break what balance is still maintained. They could fuck things up a lot more than they already are if they keep going like this.
Anonymous is drawing too much attention to itself. Before, calling themselves Anonymous was a protection because anyone who doesn't punch in a name when posting is anonymous, but as they get more involved, the Gov is going to come down on them hard and a lot of people are going to get caught up in it because of the "anonymous" name.
While I want to agree with their purpose, they're being too damn open about their activities and it's going to get them fucked. And I wonder what they're really up to, sometimes. It's romantic to think of them as some renegades fighting against a corrupt system, but that's exactly why I don't trust them as much as I want to. Their methods are total vigilantism, even assuming they have good intentions and despite what comics say, vigilantes are just as much a problem as criminals, because it breaks the system. I don't think the system is yet broken enough to warrant this kind of blatantly illegal action against the government, but it may scare the government enough that it drives them to break what balance is still maintained. They could fuck things up a lot more than they already are if they keep going like this.
You might want to wait more than a few weeks after Texas and New Mexico had huge, state-wide, week-long power and gas outages stemming from the fact that their utilities have been privatized to make this dumb statement. Unless you have a different definition of outperform?Rythe said:
This wasn't contracting, either. This is full on privatization.
And you'd expect the government to do any better? The system has a certain capacity limit, that limit was exceeded. The same thing would have happened in the government hands except the people would be paying more for it. Come to think of it, this might not have happened if government regulation didn't make it damn near impossible to build a real power plant like, say, nuclear.silvain said:
(No, solar power is not a real solution to our energy demands at present, and it won't be for a long while yet.)
Before you point fingers, you should maybe look at the root causes of problems and waste our time less.
Why is The Escapist the best source of info on Anon right now
Seriously, what? It's fucking weird.
Seriously, what? It's fucking weird.
Hm. That's interesting.
Now, I'm not an American, and I'm not from Wisconsin, so I'll get second-hand news at BEST and probably more like eight-hand news as it is, but what bugs me the most about this issue (besides the curious political-budget-political mix of it) is Scott Walker's willingness to use the National Guard against the unions. As far as I know, it hasn't actually come to that yet, but, what?
I mean, what?
Okay, unions might result in bloated safety-checks for workers and wages might be too high and the independent collectives for each group who decides to set it up might end up in money loss and budget problematics, in a time when most-everyone needs to consider their funding quite carefully. I can hardly deny the logic of "Reduce government spending --> Look into government employee's employment programme's for possible budget-fixes", but, there is a certain line between "Arguing things calmly out like rational, angry, biased politicians with mutually exclusive viewpoints" and...
"Gov. Scott Walker says the Wisconsin National Guard is prepared to respond wherever is necessary in the wake of his announcement that he wants to take away nearly all collective bargaining rights from state employees", from the Associated Press.
I'm only going to link to a single article on Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre, and mutter about the difference between the right to shout vehemently at other people in order to prove them wrong and using emergency resources inappropriately.
So let's get paranoid for a second, shall we?
Governor James Walker is elected on a platform that seems like it appeals to the majority of people in the state of Wisconsin (excluding any possibility of voting fraudulence because I refuse to think that happens in the western world), and, once in office, rolls out "The real plan from his corporate paymasters" to reduce the power of public service unions so as to allow them less ability to decide their own working conditions, in a bill which, according to sources kept Anonymous, has a loophole that allows the state to privatize any public sector utility, handing it over to the private sector with slaves-in-tow who now possess even less ability to set their own conditions. The union(s) respond, and the readied National Guard and police forces shatter their advances (handily disposing of leaders and agitators either through accidental fire or arrests for "Disturbing the public peace") His "bankster overlords" cackle menacingly in the shadows and posits a large private donation to the Wisconsin state office (They're trillionaries, they have the money). Walker accepts this, the state suddenly and miraculously have a surplus of revenue, people think this policy racks in the dough, and wham, we all become slaves to an international cabal of paymen and pr savy manipulators.
Am I doing it right?
Oh, also this was interesting to me.
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_d4093848-3c92-11e0-ac18-001cc4c03286.html
Now, that being sad, and please oh please note I was joking up there? It probably isn't that bad, in any way...
I'm not a fully educated economist and I don't understand the intricacies of balanacing a public budget beyond " Tax = Revenue, everything else = oh god we're losing money CUT STUFF ".
Also, when I say that the Governor made these statements about using the National Guard I have to point out two things. One, he says it doesn't mean it'll happen, two; the National Guard as a whole seems useful, and I respect people who help others in times of need. I serve in a very limited capacity in the Danish equivalent, so I have nothing but respect for those people.
Oh, also, anyone can link things to prove his or hers point. Other sources would most likely disagree with all of my random conjecture!
As a whole though? Collective bargaining rights is the reason most people don't work when they're 7 and can have a day off on Saturdays. People died to get those freedoms. There should be other ways to reduce budget spending, because if you pass a bill like this, it'll mean it's in effect EVEN when/if you get a massive budget surplus. More short-term measures like "Cut 10 % of workforce in utilities sector, modernize to save money" are painful as hell, but they're not exactly going to last forever.
As an aside, if anyone can answer it, I have a hard time understanding the apparent hostility between democrats and republicans and the reason this appears as "political" issue to some. Care to elaborate?
Now, I'm not an American, and I'm not from Wisconsin, so I'll get second-hand news at BEST and probably more like eight-hand news as it is, but what bugs me the most about this issue (besides the curious political-budget-political mix of it) is Scott Walker's willingness to use the National Guard against the unions. As far as I know, it hasn't actually come to that yet, but, what?
I mean, what?
Okay, unions might result in bloated safety-checks for workers and wages might be too high and the independent collectives for each group who decides to set it up might end up in money loss and budget problematics, in a time when most-everyone needs to consider their funding quite carefully. I can hardly deny the logic of "Reduce government spending --> Look into government employee's employment programme's for possible budget-fixes", but, there is a certain line between "Arguing things calmly out like rational, angry, biased politicians with mutually exclusive viewpoints" and...
"Gov. Scott Walker says the Wisconsin National Guard is prepared to respond wherever is necessary in the wake of his announcement that he wants to take away nearly all collective bargaining rights from state employees", from the Associated Press.
I'm only going to link to a single article on Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre, and mutter about the difference between the right to shout vehemently at other people in order to prove them wrong and using emergency resources inappropriately.
So let's get paranoid for a second, shall we?
Governor James Walker is elected on a platform that seems like it appeals to the majority of people in the state of Wisconsin (excluding any possibility of voting fraudulence because I refuse to think that happens in the western world), and, once in office, rolls out "The real plan from his corporate paymasters" to reduce the power of public service unions so as to allow them less ability to decide their own working conditions, in a bill which, according to sources kept Anonymous, has a loophole that allows the state to privatize any public sector utility, handing it over to the private sector with slaves-in-tow who now possess even less ability to set their own conditions. The union(s) respond, and the readied National Guard and police forces shatter their advances (handily disposing of leaders and agitators either through accidental fire or arrests for "Disturbing the public peace") His "bankster overlords" cackle menacingly in the shadows and posits a large private donation to the Wisconsin state office (They're trillionaries, they have the money). Walker accepts this, the state suddenly and miraculously have a surplus of revenue, people think this policy racks in the dough, and wham, we all become slaves to an international cabal of paymen and pr savy manipulators.
Am I doing it right?
Oh, also this was interesting to me.
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_d4093848-3c92-11e0-ac18-001cc4c03286.html
Now, that being sad, and please oh please note I was joking up there? It probably isn't that bad, in any way...
I'm not a fully educated economist and I don't understand the intricacies of balanacing a public budget beyond " Tax = Revenue, everything else = oh god we're losing money CUT STUFF ".
Also, when I say that the Governor made these statements about using the National Guard I have to point out two things. One, he says it doesn't mean it'll happen, two; the National Guard as a whole seems useful, and I respect people who help others in times of need. I serve in a very limited capacity in the Danish equivalent, so I have nothing but respect for those people.
Oh, also, anyone can link things to prove his or hers point. Other sources would most likely disagree with all of my random conjecture!
As a whole though? Collective bargaining rights is the reason most people don't work when they're 7 and can have a day off on Saturdays. People died to get those freedoms. There should be other ways to reduce budget spending, because if you pass a bill like this, it'll mean it's in effect EVEN when/if you get a massive budget surplus. More short-term measures like "Cut 10 % of workforce in utilities sector, modernize to save money" are painful as hell, but they're not exactly going to last forever.
As an aside, if anyone can answer it, I have a hard time understanding the apparent hostility between democrats and republicans and the reason this appears as "political" issue to some. Care to elaborate?
The thing is, THEY(the unions) SODDING AGREED TO A PAY CUT.millertime059 said:
THEY.
AGREED.
TO.
A.
PAY.
CUT.
I want to make that really, really clear, because Walker did NOT run on a union-busting stance. He's just using his power as governor to strip workers of what little power they have to resist industry's bad habit of shitting on the little guy.
That's not the case at all. Unfortunately that's how it is being made to seem. I don't believe that people anticipated this sort of demonstration from the Governor when they elected him. It isn't about the members of the union asking for raises, in fact, many protesters have said they are fine with pay cuts and more payments for the benefits out of their pockets. The problem is that the Governor is unwilling to compromise and very clearly intending to break unions, which isn't necessary. This is just a effortless attempt to quickly solve the budget problems without looking into further options.illmuri said:
If you're interested, here is something that I find unacceptable.
Governor Walker proposed the bill on a Friday at 4 P.M., an hour AFTER the legislators had left for the weekend. This was a 140 page bill and he told them to be ready to make an educated decision by Monday of the following week. After the protests have delayed the voting, he still is unwilling to negotiate.
Not to mention he is pushing new bills which will break the public university system we have set up and will cause our best public university to cost 20% more than it already does. (It's estimated cost as of now is roughly $18,000 each year). Then he will set up a board of 21 trustees for this university and appoint 11 himself.
To me, this sounds like dirty politics and little that will be done to benefit the general public.
I apologize if this is uninteresting and unimportant to you, and understand if you do not read the entire thing, but I believe people need to realize to some extent what is actually happening here. It's not as simple as "budget cuts".
As someone who grew up/went to school in suburban Chicago, where unions threaten to strike when the increases to their pay raises are frozen (you read that right. Not eliminated. Not scaled back. Just kept the same), and is now in Madison (the heart of all the protests and whining), I have a very clear image of how unions can become drastically overpowered. There is no good check to a well-organized union, and they know it. The only people with the power to refuse a union's demands are either elected officials or heavily linked to elected officials. Since unions get to use emotional appeals ("STOP the attack on Wisconsin families" and "Care about our educators like they care for your children" are two popular yet inaccurate picket signs around the Capitol) rather than solid logic, the uninformed electorate will always side with the union's overdramatized "plight", and most politicians won't risk their careers on reigning them in.
Public employees are not the downtrodden underdogs that Anon is so famous for supporting. These people already have retirement benefits, reduced-cost health care, great job security, and a guaranteed paycheck at the end of each month. Not only that, but they are in these jobs by choice. Nobody is forced into government jobs. They took these jobs, knowing that they would be paid less than a comparable private-sector job, but they would have the benefits listed earlier. Public employees are supposed to look out for the welfare of the state. Their own welfare should come second. Don't like the idea? Then don't go into government work. Let someone else do it. The line of people looking for work is long and eager.
If Anonymous wants to see what's really stopping democracy, they should check the attendance of the State Senate. 14 Senate Democrats fled the state, refusing to take a vote like a toddler who won't eat his peas. Nothing can be accomplished in the legislature, they were elected to do this job, and yet they think they're in the right by doing this. Did anyone who opposed the Affordable Care Act, Republican or Democrat, leave the country to keep the vote from occurring? No. They stayed and voted against it because that's how the system works. You can't up and leave every time something happens that you don't like. No advocacy group or protest could do the kind of political damage these senators are doing. If Anonymous were actually dedicated to seeing government work for the people, they'd DDoS attack the media sites that are doing interviews with these fugitives from democracy.
The bill in the Wisconsin state legislature is what this country really needs: an honest-to-God attempt to move towards a long-term sustainable budget. This isn't Clinton's accounting sleight-of-hand. This the first move towards the government borrowing $0 to run for a full year, year after year. Allowing public employees to encroach upon that allows the state to get back into the current model of borrowing endlessly. The transition from bloated, unsustainable government spending to balanced income and expenditures will be a painful one, and public services will be hit hard. It's like running to lose weight. The first few times you go out, it's miserable. But you keep at it, because each one is less painful. After lots of hard work, you're fit, healthy, and everything's going smoothly. That's what needs to happen.
Public employees are not the downtrodden underdogs that Anon is so famous for supporting. These people already have retirement benefits, reduced-cost health care, great job security, and a guaranteed paycheck at the end of each month. Not only that, but they are in these jobs by choice. Nobody is forced into government jobs. They took these jobs, knowing that they would be paid less than a comparable private-sector job, but they would have the benefits listed earlier. Public employees are supposed to look out for the welfare of the state. Their own welfare should come second. Don't like the idea? Then don't go into government work. Let someone else do it. The line of people looking for work is long and eager.
If Anonymous wants to see what's really stopping democracy, they should check the attendance of the State Senate. 14 Senate Democrats fled the state, refusing to take a vote like a toddler who won't eat his peas. Nothing can be accomplished in the legislature, they were elected to do this job, and yet they think they're in the right by doing this. Did anyone who opposed the Affordable Care Act, Republican or Democrat, leave the country to keep the vote from occurring? No. They stayed and voted against it because that's how the system works. You can't up and leave every time something happens that you don't like. No advocacy group or protest could do the kind of political damage these senators are doing. If Anonymous were actually dedicated to seeing government work for the people, they'd DDoS attack the media sites that are doing interviews with these fugitives from democracy.
The bill in the Wisconsin state legislature is what this country really needs: an honest-to-God attempt to move towards a long-term sustainable budget. This isn't Clinton's accounting sleight-of-hand. This the first move towards the government borrowing $0 to run for a full year, year after year. Allowing public employees to encroach upon that allows the state to get back into the current model of borrowing endlessly. The transition from bloated, unsustainable government spending to balanced income and expenditures will be a painful one, and public services will be hit hard. It's like running to lose weight. The first few times you go out, it's miserable. But you keep at it, because each one is less painful. After lots of hard work, you're fit, healthy, and everything's going smoothly. That's what needs to happen.
This is bullshit. This is exactly what is wrong with having a group like Anonymous out there. A vigilante based police system does not have a code to follow, nor can people hold them accountable for it. They think these brothers are doing bad things... what do we have to prove it?Greg Tito said:
If they had simply used their hacker skills to make certain information public, I could at least consider them a somewhat misguided private investigator. But just defacing a company they think is in the wrong, without good evidence?
Honestly, they aren't super hero's, they're a bunch of internet fucktards.
Both have their own problems. I *love* the daily show, and think it is a good comedic outlet... but I also think that Jon Stewart is lying to himself whenever he uses the "I'm just a comedian, so what if I get it wrong" argument. Anonymous... well, how do we know they are correct in their actions? What if they jumped the gun? Heck, what if someone corrupt is in a position of power there? We'd never know.arbane said:
