Aversion to Children

[AgedGrunt]

This thread is cute, bunches of teenagers and twenty something's hating on children because it's a total sign of maturity and edgy coolness.

I kid slightly, I actually think the aversion is kind of a basic way to prevent people without the emotional maturity to raise a child from having one. As people age a lot of them feel differently, some don't. I have college buddies who were vehemently against having kids who are now waiting on number three. I am planning on at least three more biological kids and continuing to foster as well.

Not having kids is fine, some of the active hatred of children is this thread would be troubling if it wasn't so darn cute. It's like a nine year old saying, "Ew, look at the big dumb baby who likes baby stuff, ew. I'm a big boy!" Lol.

I think it's more than maturity, Many people have been trained with contempt for certain things, such as the 1%, view them as sources of their problems. What we may be seeing is this type of irrational judgment translated to children or a spouse, that they're just more sources of greed and oppression that ruin lives and suck away money.

A good lesson of life is that at some level everyone is only looking out for themselves. Pretty sad how some people don't need to dig at all to find it, they actually seem proud to have no shame.

 

[lacktheknack]

I think aversion to kids is pure biology.
As Conrad Lorenz figured out many years ago, rat colonies will stop breeding when their numbers are high. I'm sure those rats get an "aversion to children" too.

How does that even work?

Why are babies still incredibly common in countries like India, if that's how we work biologically? It seems to be the other way around, really.

Because probably India as a higher mortality rate?

Even ignoring the fact that the mortality rates are lower than the birth rates nearly everywhere, let's just Google that anyways.

<link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_mortality_rate#Countries>List of Countries That Had Higher Mortality Rates In 2013 Than India (7.39/1000):
Canada (8.20/1000)
United States (8.39/1000)
Luxembourg (8.52/1000)
Spain (8.94/1000)
France (8.96/1000)
Norway (9.21/1000)
Japan (9.27/1000)
United Kingdom (9.33/1000)
Sweden (10.22/1000)
Germany (11.17/1000)
Russia (13.97/1000)
The World Average (7.99/1000)

Your "Because Biology" guess is a total crock.

 

[DrunkOnEstus]

It's different when you've made it.

I never really minded kids, I was okay with them being near me on an airplane, and it kind of perturbed me that I had to stop waving back at them or responding to small talk from children because everyone is a pedophile and the parents will chew you out.

Despite that, I swore I would never have one. "I like being alone too much", "I don't want a huge responsibility cutting into my hobbies", "It's enough to watch my nieces/nephews and then hand them back". When it happened to me, there was a major shift in my outlook, overall thinking, and probably hormones or some shit. My wife did go through a lot of pain, yes, but it was a surreal kind of "okay" pain despite the intensity and duration. She got to feel a human being grow from a peanut into a real person, inside of her. I'm actually jealous of that, because despite how much attachment I have to my daughter I will never have that level of complete bonding that took place.

I'm still generally uncomfortable around other people's kids, but your own kid is awesome. You look into their eyes and they smile, and you see half of yourself and half of someone you love very dearly combined into one individual. I'm not saying it's easy, and for a lot of people it's an undertaking that they probably shouldn't consider until they absolutely know they want to. I don't even hear crying/screaming as an irritant anymore, I've adjusted to little powernaps to adjust for lost 8 hours, and if you have a loving partner you can work together so that each of you can have time to do the things alone that you enjoy doing.

I'm excited as hell to have her talk back, and to see how her personality develops. To watch her question, and develop her worldview with the help of my (probably fucked up) information. I know a lot of this is the same bullshit rhetoric you get from people who shove pictures of their kids in your face, but it's where I'm at in my life right now. I'm not sure there's a biological disposition to truly care for other people's kids that you see in public unless they're on fire or something, or you're someone who teaches/works with kids because it's your calling.

And honestly, I won't judge anyone who cannot ever fathom the idea of ever having kids. It's not for you, cool. It's a shitload of work and responsibility and sacrifice for the many intangible rewards it gives you. There's a whole lot of people on this planet, so if people hate kids, are asexual, or homosexual, thank you for (inadvertently) stemming the tide of overgrowth. I just figured I would let people know that there's a love deep inside of yourself that you can only feel by having a child, it's not all negatives, and a lot of the negatives either quit feeling like negatives or are remembered as being "not so bad".

1 Sidenote (because this needs to be longer), immediately after Tali was born, my wife said "Never fucking again. It's not happening. If I say that I want to do this again, call me a liar because there's no fucking way I'm doing that again". 3 months later and she's already talking about the timing of giving her a sibling, saying that it "wasn't really that bad". I hear there's a hormone that actually makes the whole process seem not as bad in hindsight. Such is life, and being an animal on a floating and spinning rock.

 

[Emanuele Ciriachi]

That's actually a partial misnomer, some parents never develop an attachment to their children, that's how a fair few babies end up going through the adoption system, the parents didn't get attached and didn't want their children as a result, and I don't think it's fair to hinge keeping a child on a possibility, especially if the child is unwanted/unplanned in the first place. If that attachment does come in and the parent/s is/are willing to raise the child responsibly, so much the better.

If what you say is true, that's a really sad thing.
Every case is different, and yet I can't but wonder how much of this is just the result of a negative attitude and/or poor planning... the world is truly full of tragedies, and what we read in the news just really skims the surface.

This aside, do you know what if any data exists about the percentage of such events? And how many of the children abandoned by their parents eventually find a new family? I would imagine is a function of their age at moment of... whatever is called.

 

[Krustosaurus]

I've never really been comfortable around babies. Usually if someone hands me one there's just a few awkward seconds of staring then I hand it back. They're smelly and sticky and I'm just waiting for some horrible accident to occur, like not holding them correctly or accidentally dropping them and having their mum maul me.

Until recently I hadn't really spent much time around kids, but I've been working with them for about 6 months now and it's actually surprisingly been a lot of fun. Once I got by that awkward "WHAT DO THEY WANT FROM ME?!" stage it was fine. They're just mini people. They usually like to draw, colour stuff in and run around. Sometimes there's trouble, but that's usually because someone stole someone else's rubber or something along those lines.

I was really worried about working with kids, but I relaxed and just listened to what they had to say and I'm still alive so it's all good. Plus, you can end up with some pretty funny stories to tell.
Still not fond of babies though.

 

[DkLnBr]

I don't like crying, screaming infants. Or the messes they make. Or the sleeplessness they cause. Or how they look. Or how their default setting is "annoy" for the first part of their existence. Or how expensive they are. Or how much time they require. Or how useless they are personally to me, or anyone else for that matter. Or really anything about them in general.

I have to agree with you, as terrible as people think I am for it, I'm not much of a fan of children, especially toddlers (to the people who will reply, I don't specifically mean your kid, I'm sure they're wonderful). They're just annoying, sticky, smelly, obnoxious, dirty and often times noisy. Could be that I'm a crotchety old man on the inside, but I don't really find the things they say or do to be cute or funny

"Oh, how can you not like children? You were a child once you know!"

I. Fucking. Hate. this argument.
What do people think with come as a result of this? Do they think I'm so arrogant and forgetful that I'd go "Oh really? I was? Well nothing I've ever been or done could ever be bad, so I guess kids are alright after all!"
I just always want to answer "Yes I was, but I got over my disability" just to shut them up

 

[[REDACTED]]

Kids are wonderful, but exhausting. I definitely lack the emotional maturity to care for one full-time, but I imagine that'll change as I get older. Everything I've heard from actual parents, good and bad and horrible as those things can be, have made parenting look more like something I'll want to do once I'm ready to handle the responsibility. Still, it's impossible to predict how I'll feel once I'm actually at that point in my life.

SNIP

I can kind of see where you're coming from on this from a moral perspective (although the joke about conceiving kids to eat them was in seriously poor taste), but I think that you're approaching the problem of overpopulation in the wrong way. Overpopulation is a symptom of larger socioeconomic problems, not the root cause. It sucks in the countries where it's a problem, but no-one's going to get anywhere by trying to tackle it head on. Here, have some articles written by people who are smarter than me:

http://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/blog/concern-overpopulation-red-herring-consumption-problem-sustainability

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/14/opinion/overpopulation-is-not-the-problem.html?_r=0

http://www.realclearscience.com/articles/2011/07/20/the_world_is_not_overpopulated_106247.html

Edit: Is it just me, or is it slightly ironic that the people who state that they don't like kids are being mocked because of their age?

Also, @DrunkOnEstus: just... hot damn. Every single post of yours has given me the impression that you are the best frickin' dad ever. I don't have anything else to add. Keep on being awesome.

 

[FoxKitsune]

You know, this thread is actually genuinely upsetting to me- not just because of the aforementioned working with kids, but because....really guys?

I get someone not wanting to be a parent and would never judge anyone for living their life the way they want to- I even get that some people just plain don't like children, and that's fine too, but without naming names or going into specifics it's kind of sickening to see some of the attitudes on here regarding what are essentially the most vulnerable people in her society.

If you hate kids then fine, hate kids, but if you want to be respected as someone who doesn't want anything to do with them them you also need to respect those that do: it's a two way street. More to the point children are not annoying and obnoxious even if you have a distaste for them: they are young people who need guidance and nurturing to become well adjusted adults.

This is where I get off. I hopped into the thread to offer my 2 cents and because I was genuinely interested in hearing the escapists' forumites (usually) insightful and thought provoking discussion. Seriously, long time lurker rare poster and I'm normally impressed by the civility in most threads, even when topics are a bit controversial. I wasn't prepared for ths level of sheer hate coming from some people, though.

 

[lunavixen]

If what you say is true, that's a really sad thing.
Every case is different, and yet I can't but wonder how much of this is just the result of a negative attitude and/or poor planning... the world is truly full of tragedies, and what we read in the news just really skims the surface.

This aside, do you know what if any data exists about the percentage of such events? And how many of the children abandoned by their parents eventually find a new family? I would imagine is a function of their age at moment of... whatever is called.

I'm afraid I don't have any data on the percentages anymore, they were on my last harddrive which got corrupted (it was seriously out of date anyway) and i'm not sure where to find it, a lot of this data is now kept privately by counsellors and hospitals who are bound by doctor-patient confidentiality.

What I can tell is that a negative attitude or poor planning would probably only be partial contributors at best, a side effect, not a cause. (But I'm no psychologist so take that sentence for what you will)

 

[DarthSka]

There's nothing wrong with having an aversion to children. Like anything else, choosing to partake or not is a personal choice and it's honestly best that you know your feelings on it now rather than having a child and having your feelings confirmed that way. Kids aren't for everyone, simple as that.

On another note, the generalizations and hate expressed here are somewhat depressing. It seems that if you express hatred or just generalizations for most groups of people (race, gender, nationality, etc.), the usual responses here are that doing so is wrong. But apparently you can generalize and express hatred for babies and kids all you want. Classy.

 

[Ghaleon640]

I'm kinda surprised at the people that do say its selfish. I don't think that its selfish in any negative form to not want kids. Its selfish in a good way. Self respect- you care about what YOU want. Its really, if anything, deciding how you want to spend your free time. Do you want to take care of a child, or do you want to take care of yourself.

Everyone answers this question in their own way, and there is no wrong answer. Its damaging if you decide to change your mind half way through, having a kid but then ignoring it. Deciding ahead of time 'I can't/do not want to' is a healthy answer.

I'm up in the air. Going to try and get my feet on the ground and my life in order before I make that type of decision.

 

[Ubiquitous Duck]

I wouldn't say it is strange.

I wouldn't say it necessarily will or will not remain your opinion.

I think the idea is that if it was 'your' child, then you might feel differently. Sadly, you will only understand this once you have a child.

If games with parental aspects have taught me anything, I can easily get lost in stories around protecting children. I say children and not specifically the child of the character, because the main example I'd use would be The Walking Dead.

A lot of people are, with increased ability to choose in the matter, waiting until later in life to have kids and also limiting the amount they have. Once choice has truly entered the equation, the numbers will drop and have already obviously begun to do so, as this choice has become easier/more available, so you can argue the numbers will drop if we are to believe this trend would continue.

 

[kortin]

Everyone hates other people's kids, but if you were to have a kid, you'd love the hell out of it. What I do find strange, though, is the idea that hating other people's kids makes for good discussion.

However, even when I still liked being around kids, I came to the conclusion that I didn't want any myself. I mentioned this to my ex once, and he had the most startling response: he said that it would be a shame if I was never a mother. I was rather put off by this idea -- that I should be a mother simply *because*. Never mind taking into account the circumstances under which I would undertake this journey, or with whom, or whether it was a good idea, or whether I *wanted to do it*. Or anything reasonable like that.

Maybe he thought you'd make a good mother.

 

[Eamar]

I can't speak about how society is in India and the culture behind it.

I still believe my theory is most likely correct. As our society increased in numbers and there was less mortality and more people living in the same place, the period of adolescence started to last longer (with people still living with parents at ages that were unthinkable only 30 years ago), the number of children each family had decreased (not even a century or two ago people had 5-6 children at least), and now we're taking the next step: people don't want children at all.
It really makes way too much sense, especially considering the same identical phenomenon happens in the animal kingdom, of which we are still a part of.

Still, there's no certainty my theory is correct, so you're free to dismiss it entirely.

I think it's much more likely to be down to the fact that nowadays people are realistically able to choose how many children they have, or if they have them at all (without resorting to celibacy). That wasn't true until a generation or two ago, so until the last few decades people ran a real risk of conceiving a child every time they had sex, hence married couples with huge numbers of kids (my grandmother was one of ten or twelve, I think, and that wasn't unusual back then).

 

[lacktheknack]

I think aversion to kids is pure biology.
As Conrad Lorenz figured out many years ago, rat colonies will stop breeding when their numbers are high. I'm sure those rats get an "aversion to children" too.

How does that even work?

Why are babies still incredibly common in countries like India, if that's how we work biologically? It seems to be the other way around, really.

Because probably India as a higher mortality rate?

Even ignoring the fact that the mortality rates are lower than the birth rates nearly everywhere, let's just Google that anyways.

<link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_mortality_rate#Countries>List of Countries That Had Higher Mortality Rates In 2013 Than India (7.39/1000):
Canada (8.20/1000)
United States (8.39/1000)
Luxembourg (8.52/1000)
Spain (8.94/1000)
France (8.96/1000)
Norway (9.21/1000)
Japan (9.27/1000)
United Kingdom (9.33/1000)
Sweden (10.22/1000)
Germany (11.17/1000)
Russia (13.97/1000)
The World Average (7.99/1000)

Your "Because Biology" guess is a total crock.

I can't speak about how society is in India and the culture behind it.

I still believe my theory is most likely correct. As our society increased in numbers and there was less mortality and more people living in the same place, the period of adolescence started to last longer (with people still living with parents at ages that were unthinkable only 30 years ago), the number of children each family had decreased (not even a century or two ago people had 5-6 children at least), and now we're taking the next step: people don't want children at all.
It really makes way too much sense, especially considering the same identical phenomenon happens in the animal kingdom, of which we are still a part of.

Still, there's no certainty my theory is correct, so you're free to dismiss it entirely.

Except it's the OPPOSITE phenomenon happening.

The countries with the largest populations and lowest mortality rates (Bangladesh, India, China, et al) are having MORE children than countries with smaller populations with higher mortality rates (except China, who's actually in step with us... after having laws passed to reduce children).

That's... like... the opposite of what you're predicting. It seems that the denser the population, the more children they seem to want.

It's almost like the effect is cultural rather than biological.

Hmmmm.

 

[AgedGrunt]

I'm kinda surprised at the people that do say its selfish. I don't think that its selfish in any negative form to not want kids. Its selfish in a good way. Self respect- you care about what YOU want. Its really, if anything, deciding how you want to spend your free time. Do you want to take care of a child, or do you want to take care of yourself.

Self-respect is about liking who you are; selfishness is focusing too much on yourself.

Re-read the OP and count the number of criticisms that aren't self-centered. It's worse than the people that have it out against nature because they view weather as misery to *their* worlds. The earth tilts and atmosphere changes make the world livable. Children aren't grown in pods and kept away from society until they're no longer an inconvenience to people like this.

 

[persephone]

Everyone hates other people's kids, but if you were to have a kid, you'd love the hell out of it. What I do find strange, though, is the idea that hating other people's kids makes for good discussion.

However, even when I still liked being around kids, I came to the conclusion that I didn't want any myself. I mentioned this to my ex once, and he had the most startling response: he said that it would be a shame if I was never a mother. I was rather put off by this idea -- that I should be a mother simply *because*. Never mind taking into account the circumstances under which I would undertake this journey, or with whom, or whether it was a good idea, or whether I *wanted to do it*. Or anything reasonable like that.

Maybe he thought you'd make a good mother.

I'm sure he did. I wasn't at all insulted by him thinking I'd be a good mother; it was more the clear implication that if I didn't become a mother, it would be a loss, irregardless of all other circumstances. That was what was unsettling to me. I know that I'm glad I'm not currently a mother, as I'm not physically fit to care for a child, or even sometimes just myself.

 

[Aramis Night]

I wholeheartedly believe that you should only conceive a child if you plan on eating it. The world has enough mistakes in it already. If you really want one, adopt someone else's instead of making a new one.

Please, please tell me you're joking. Or at least exaggerating for effect.

We actually had a thread recently about adoption: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.846666-I-hate-it-when-people-choose-to-have-kids-instead-of-adopt?page=1

I won't reiterate all of the points that thread made, but I will say this: Your premise seems to be that all children are mistakes.

......

............

Please tell me that you don't believe that all children are mistakes. After all, all the best figures in human history were once children. Who were created by breeding and pregnancy and all of that.

It is always a mistake to contribute further to overpopulation. Feed the children that already exist. Don't make more mouths until we as a species have more food.

I meant joking about the eating babies part. I really hope you weren't advocating cannibalism, much less cannibalizing babies.

The problem isn't overpopulation (the population projected to stabilize at nine billion in twenty years or so, I believe), nor a lack of food; we have more than enough food. The problem is economic infrastructure and disparity. If we could just teleport the food we have to the areas that need it, everyone would have enough to eat.

We'll cannibalizing pregnancies would solve both of your concerns. It would reduce populations as well as ensure that the hungry have food. It's a win-win.

I used to feel the same way about children as many people here did. Then I grew up and realized that what I really dislike are parents. The amount of selfishness involved in choosing to be a parent is staggering. Imagine the degree of self-importance involved in making the choice to have a kid and entertaining the idea of having ones gene's continue into the future as though there is anything special about ones gene's. It's a self-important cop out for not having done anything worthwhile in one's own life, to choose to have a kid in the expectation that it will succeed where you were a failure. If your gene's were of any value, you would have accomplished something spectacular for your species, but you did not. Therefore, you and your genetic material are of little if any value and should do the species a favor and consign your worthless genetic material to the dustbin of history.

But since parents are unable to look at what they are in an objective light they continue to fill the world with their mediocrity and unfortunate spawn. These days it is the spawn I feel pity for. For like myself, they had no choice.

The official soundtrack to planned parenthood waiting rooms everywhere:

Dedicated to all foetus acting wisely enough to die in their mother's womb before they could be thrown into this cruel world full of blind hate. May they never know how hard it is to live without any reason, without any sense.

 

[persephone]

We'll cannibalizing pregnancies would solve both of your concerns. It would reduce populations as well as ensure that the hungry have food. It's a win-win.

I used to feel the same way about children as many people here did. Then I grew up and realized that what I really dislike are parents. The amount of selfishness involved in choosing to be a parent is staggering. Imagine the degree of self-importance involved in making the choice to have a kid and entertaining the idea of having ones gene's continue into the future as though there is anything special about ones gene's. It's a self-important cop out for not having done anything worthwhile in one's own life, to choose to have a kid in the expectation that it will succeed where you were a failure. If your gene's were of any value, you would have accomplished something spectacular for your species, but you did not. Therefore, you and your genetic material are of little if any value and should do the species a favor and consign your worthless genetic material to the dustbin of history.

But since parents are unable to look at what they are in an objective light they continue to fill the world with their mediocrity and unfortunate spawn. These days it is the spawn I feel pity for. For like myself, they had no choice.

The official soundtrack to planned parenthood waiting rooms everywhere:

Dedicated to all foetus acting wisely enough to die in their mother's womb before they could be thrown into this cruel world full of blind hate. May they never know how hard it is to live without any reason, without any sense.

You do realize that your unspoken premise is that all parents (and all people) are failures as individuals and human beings? I would say that my father is the most successful man I know, by pretty much any criteria you could throw at him. Right now he's helping bring safe nuclear power to developing countries. He is one of the most selfless and generous people I know, if not THE most selfless and generous person I know.

You are the one who is hating blindly; not all do. I am deeply sorry for whatever it is you have experienced that has caused you to view the world so negatively. I hope that you find your reason, your sense, that you find what you are missing in your life. I hope you find love and happiness and friendship, and support so that you can endure the suffering in your life.

 

[Aramis Night]

We'll cannibalizing pregnancies would solve both of your concerns. It would reduce populations as well as ensure that the hungry have food. It's a win-win.

I used to feel the same way about children as many people here did. Then I grew up and realized that what I really dislike are parents. The amount of selfishness involved in choosing to be a parent is staggering. Imagine the degree of self-importance involved in making the choice to have a kid and entertaining the idea of having ones gene's continue into the future as though there is anything special about ones gene's. It's a self-important cop out for not having done anything worthwhile in one's own life, to choose to have a kid in the expectation that it will succeed where you were a failure. If your gene's were of any value, you would have accomplished something spectacular for your species, but you did not. Therefore, you and your genetic material are of little if any value and should do the species a favor and consign your worthless genetic material to the dustbin of history.

But since parents are unable to look at what they are in an objective light they continue to fill the world with their mediocrity and unfortunate spawn. These days it is the spawn I feel pity for. For like myself, they had no choice.

The official soundtrack to planned parenthood waiting rooms everywhere:

Dedicated to all foetus acting wisely enough to die in their mother's womb before they could be thrown into this cruel world full of blind hate. May they never know how hard it is to live without any reason, without any sense.

You do realize that your unspoken premise is that all parents (and all people) are failures as individuals and human beings? I would say that my father is the most successful man I know, by pretty much any criteria you could throw at him. Right now he's helping bring safe nuclear power to developing countries. He is one of the most selfless and generous people I know, if not THE most selfless and generous person I know.

You are the one who is hating blindly; not all do. I am deeply sorry for whatever it is you have experienced that has caused you to view the world so negatively. I hope that you find your reason, your sense, that you find what you are missing in your life. I hope you find love and happiness and friendship, and support so that you can endure the suffering in your life.

There are of course exceptions to what I stated as with pretty much any generalization. From the sound of it, your father has demonstrated enough value to be one of the rare exceptions. I do not seethe with hate for everyone. I didn't intend to give that impression. Nor am I the least bit depressed. But I cannot deny that I have a rather grim outlook on our species as a whole. If more people were like your father, I would perhaps see things differently, but even you have to acknowledge that your father is not a common man.