Aversion to Children

[Ubiquitous Duck]

I wouldn't say it is strange.

I wouldn't say it necessarily will or will not remain your opinion.

I think the idea is that if it was 'your' child, then you might feel differently. Sadly, you will only understand this once you have a child.

If games with parental aspects have taught me anything, I can easily get lost in stories around protecting children. I say children and not specifically the child of the character, because the main example I'd use would be The Walking Dead.

A lot of people are, with increased ability to choose in the matter, waiting until later in life to have kids and also limiting the amount they have. Once choice has truly entered the equation, the numbers will drop and have already obviously begun to do so, as this choice has become easier/more available, so you can argue the numbers will drop if we are to believe this trend would continue.

 

[kortin]

Everyone hates other people's kids, but if you were to have a kid, you'd love the hell out of it. What I do find strange, though, is the idea that hating other people's kids makes for good discussion.

However, even when I still liked being around kids, I came to the conclusion that I didn't want any myself. I mentioned this to my ex once, and he had the most startling response: he said that it would be a shame if I was never a mother. I was rather put off by this idea -- that I should be a mother simply *because*. Never mind taking into account the circumstances under which I would undertake this journey, or with whom, or whether it was a good idea, or whether I *wanted to do it*. Or anything reasonable like that.

Maybe he thought you'd make a good mother.

 

[Eamar]

I can't speak about how society is in India and the culture behind it.

I still believe my theory is most likely correct. As our society increased in numbers and there was less mortality and more people living in the same place, the period of adolescence started to last longer (with people still living with parents at ages that were unthinkable only 30 years ago), the number of children each family had decreased (not even a century or two ago people had 5-6 children at least), and now we're taking the next step: people don't want children at all.
It really makes way too much sense, especially considering the same identical phenomenon happens in the animal kingdom, of which we are still a part of.

Still, there's no certainty my theory is correct, so you're free to dismiss it entirely.

I think it's much more likely to be down to the fact that nowadays people are realistically able to choose how many children they have, or if they have them at all (without resorting to celibacy). That wasn't true until a generation or two ago, so until the last few decades people ran a real risk of conceiving a child every time they had sex, hence married couples with huge numbers of kids (my grandmother was one of ten or twelve, I think, and that wasn't unusual back then).

 

[lacktheknack]

I think aversion to kids is pure biology.
As Conrad Lorenz figured out many years ago, rat colonies will stop breeding when their numbers are high. I'm sure those rats get an "aversion to children" too.

How does that even work?

Why are babies still incredibly common in countries like India, if that's how we work biologically? It seems to be the other way around, really.

Because probably India as a higher mortality rate?

Even ignoring the fact that the mortality rates are lower than the birth rates nearly everywhere, let's just Google that anyways.

<link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_mortality_rate#Countries>List of Countries That Had Higher Mortality Rates In 2013 Than India (7.39/1000):
Canada (8.20/1000)
United States (8.39/1000)
Luxembourg (8.52/1000)
Spain (8.94/1000)
France (8.96/1000)
Norway (9.21/1000)
Japan (9.27/1000)
United Kingdom (9.33/1000)
Sweden (10.22/1000)
Germany (11.17/1000)
Russia (13.97/1000)
The World Average (7.99/1000)

Your "Because Biology" guess is a total crock.

I can't speak about how society is in India and the culture behind it.

I still believe my theory is most likely correct. As our society increased in numbers and there was less mortality and more people living in the same place, the period of adolescence started to last longer (with people still living with parents at ages that were unthinkable only 30 years ago), the number of children each family had decreased (not even a century or two ago people had 5-6 children at least), and now we're taking the next step: people don't want children at all.
It really makes way too much sense, especially considering the same identical phenomenon happens in the animal kingdom, of which we are still a part of.

Still, there's no certainty my theory is correct, so you're free to dismiss it entirely.

Except it's the OPPOSITE phenomenon happening.

The countries with the largest populations and lowest mortality rates (Bangladesh, India, China, et al) are having MORE children than countries with smaller populations with higher mortality rates (except China, who's actually in step with us... after having laws passed to reduce children).

That's... like... the opposite of what you're predicting. It seems that the denser the population, the more children they seem to want.

It's almost like the effect is cultural rather than biological.

Hmmmm.

 

[AgedGrunt]

I'm kinda surprised at the people that do say its selfish. I don't think that its selfish in any negative form to not want kids. Its selfish in a good way. Self respect- you care about what YOU want. Its really, if anything, deciding how you want to spend your free time. Do you want to take care of a child, or do you want to take care of yourself.

Self-respect is about liking who you are; selfishness is focusing too much on yourself.

Re-read the OP and count the number of criticisms that aren't self-centered. It's worse than the people that have it out against nature because they view weather as misery to *their* worlds. The earth tilts and atmosphere changes make the world livable. Children aren't grown in pods and kept away from society until they're no longer an inconvenience to people like this.

 

[persephone]

Everyone hates other people's kids, but if you were to have a kid, you'd love the hell out of it. What I do find strange, though, is the idea that hating other people's kids makes for good discussion.

However, even when I still liked being around kids, I came to the conclusion that I didn't want any myself. I mentioned this to my ex once, and he had the most startling response: he said that it would be a shame if I was never a mother. I was rather put off by this idea -- that I should be a mother simply *because*. Never mind taking into account the circumstances under which I would undertake this journey, or with whom, or whether it was a good idea, or whether I *wanted to do it*. Or anything reasonable like that.

Maybe he thought you'd make a good mother.

I'm sure he did. I wasn't at all insulted by him thinking I'd be a good mother; it was more the clear implication that if I didn't become a mother, it would be a loss, irregardless of all other circumstances. That was what was unsettling to me. I know that I'm glad I'm not currently a mother, as I'm not physically fit to care for a child, or even sometimes just myself.

 

[Aramis Night]

I wholeheartedly believe that you should only conceive a child if you plan on eating it. The world has enough mistakes in it already. If you really want one, adopt someone else's instead of making a new one.

Please, please tell me you're joking. Or at least exaggerating for effect.

We actually had a thread recently about adoption: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.846666-I-hate-it-when-people-choose-to-have-kids-instead-of-adopt?page=1

I won't reiterate all of the points that thread made, but I will say this: Your premise seems to be that all children are mistakes.

......

............

Please tell me that you don't believe that all children are mistakes. After all, all the best figures in human history were once children. Who were created by breeding and pregnancy and all of that.

It is always a mistake to contribute further to overpopulation. Feed the children that already exist. Don't make more mouths until we as a species have more food.

I meant joking about the eating babies part. I really hope you weren't advocating cannibalism, much less cannibalizing babies.

The problem isn't overpopulation (the population projected to stabilize at nine billion in twenty years or so, I believe), nor a lack of food; we have more than enough food. The problem is economic infrastructure and disparity. If we could just teleport the food we have to the areas that need it, everyone would have enough to eat.

We'll cannibalizing pregnancies would solve both of your concerns. It would reduce populations as well as ensure that the hungry have food. It's a win-win.

I used to feel the same way about children as many people here did. Then I grew up and realized that what I really dislike are parents. The amount of selfishness involved in choosing to be a parent is staggering. Imagine the degree of self-importance involved in making the choice to have a kid and entertaining the idea of having ones gene's continue into the future as though there is anything special about ones gene's. It's a self-important cop out for not having done anything worthwhile in one's own life, to choose to have a kid in the expectation that it will succeed where you were a failure. If your gene's were of any value, you would have accomplished something spectacular for your species, but you did not. Therefore, you and your genetic material are of little if any value and should do the species a favor and consign your worthless genetic material to the dustbin of history.

But since parents are unable to look at what they are in an objective light they continue to fill the world with their mediocrity and unfortunate spawn. These days it is the spawn I feel pity for. For like myself, they had no choice.

The official soundtrack to planned parenthood waiting rooms everywhere:

Dedicated to all foetus acting wisely enough to die in their mother's womb before they could be thrown into this cruel world full of blind hate. May they never know how hard it is to live without any reason, without any sense.

 

[persephone]

We'll cannibalizing pregnancies would solve both of your concerns. It would reduce populations as well as ensure that the hungry have food. It's a win-win.

I used to feel the same way about children as many people here did. Then I grew up and realized that what I really dislike are parents. The amount of selfishness involved in choosing to be a parent is staggering. Imagine the degree of self-importance involved in making the choice to have a kid and entertaining the idea of having ones gene's continue into the future as though there is anything special about ones gene's. It's a self-important cop out for not having done anything worthwhile in one's own life, to choose to have a kid in the expectation that it will succeed where you were a failure. If your gene's were of any value, you would have accomplished something spectacular for your species, but you did not. Therefore, you and your genetic material are of little if any value and should do the species a favor and consign your worthless genetic material to the dustbin of history.

But since parents are unable to look at what they are in an objective light they continue to fill the world with their mediocrity and unfortunate spawn. These days it is the spawn I feel pity for. For like myself, they had no choice.

The official soundtrack to planned parenthood waiting rooms everywhere:

Dedicated to all foetus acting wisely enough to die in their mother's womb before they could be thrown into this cruel world full of blind hate. May they never know how hard it is to live without any reason, without any sense.

You do realize that your unspoken premise is that all parents (and all people) are failures as individuals and human beings? I would say that my father is the most successful man I know, by pretty much any criteria you could throw at him. Right now he's helping bring safe nuclear power to developing countries. He is one of the most selfless and generous people I know, if not THE most selfless and generous person I know.

You are the one who is hating blindly; not all do. I am deeply sorry for whatever it is you have experienced that has caused you to view the world so negatively. I hope that you find your reason, your sense, that you find what you are missing in your life. I hope you find love and happiness and friendship, and support so that you can endure the suffering in your life.

 

[Aramis Night]

We'll cannibalizing pregnancies would solve both of your concerns. It would reduce populations as well as ensure that the hungry have food. It's a win-win.

I used to feel the same way about children as many people here did. Then I grew up and realized that what I really dislike are parents. The amount of selfishness involved in choosing to be a parent is staggering. Imagine the degree of self-importance involved in making the choice to have a kid and entertaining the idea of having ones gene's continue into the future as though there is anything special about ones gene's. It's a self-important cop out for not having done anything worthwhile in one's own life, to choose to have a kid in the expectation that it will succeed where you were a failure. If your gene's were of any value, you would have accomplished something spectacular for your species, but you did not. Therefore, you and your genetic material are of little if any value and should do the species a favor and consign your worthless genetic material to the dustbin of history.

But since parents are unable to look at what they are in an objective light they continue to fill the world with their mediocrity and unfortunate spawn. These days it is the spawn I feel pity for. For like myself, they had no choice.

The official soundtrack to planned parenthood waiting rooms everywhere:

Dedicated to all foetus acting wisely enough to die in their mother's womb before they could be thrown into this cruel world full of blind hate. May they never know how hard it is to live without any reason, without any sense.

You do realize that your unspoken premise is that all parents (and all people) are failures as individuals and human beings? I would say that my father is the most successful man I know, by pretty much any criteria you could throw at him. Right now he's helping bring safe nuclear power to developing countries. He is one of the most selfless and generous people I know, if not THE most selfless and generous person I know.

You are the one who is hating blindly; not all do. I am deeply sorry for whatever it is you have experienced that has caused you to view the world so negatively. I hope that you find your reason, your sense, that you find what you are missing in your life. I hope you find love and happiness and friendship, and support so that you can endure the suffering in your life.

There are of course exceptions to what I stated as with pretty much any generalization. From the sound of it, your father has demonstrated enough value to be one of the rare exceptions. I do not seethe with hate for everyone. I didn't intend to give that impression. Nor am I the least bit depressed. But I cannot deny that I have a rather grim outlook on our species as a whole. If more people were like your father, I would perhaps see things differently, but even you have to acknowledge that your father is not a common man.

 

[Richard Dubbeld]

I like children...

...but I could never eat a whole one.

 

[lacktheknack]

The official soundtrack to planned parenthood waiting rooms everywhere:

Dedicated to all foetus acting wisely enough to die in their mother's womb before they could be thrown into this cruel world full of blind hate. May they never know how hard it is to live without any reason, without any sense.

that absolutely spine-chilling moment when you realize that some people actually took the Embryodead album as a representation of reality

The only reason I'll be able to sleep tonight is that this thought pattern is rare.

Damn good album, by the way, just one with a horrendously broken concept with no perspective.

 

[zelda2fanboy]

You're not alone. My fiancee has a bigger dislike of children than I do and I'm also considering getting a vasectomy. I thought for years that I might eventually want to have kids, or be in a relationship with someone that does. I still don't want kids and thankfully she does not either. I didn't care for children very much when I was a child, I routinely regret things I did and said as a kid, and I was pretty miserable for most of my life thus far. There's no reason to thrust that on another human being who may be genetically inclined to have a similar experience, all so I can feel good about myself and contribution to the world. I can't tell you the number of times my parents would brag about me, while inside I felt horrible about myself and the life I was living. I certainly can't put another human being through the American education system, look him/her in the eye, and tell them that that is what is best for them.

We also live on a planet of billions of people, so even if I'm a one in a million type of guy, there could be 40 more people just like me having very similar babies that I would.

 

[Aramis Night]

The official soundtrack to planned parenthood waiting rooms everywhere:

Dedicated to all foetus acting wisely enough to die in their mother's womb before they could be thrown into this cruel world full of blind hate. May they never know how hard it is to live without any reason, without any sense.

that absolutely spine-chilling moment when you realize that some people actually took the Embryodead album as a representation of reality

The only reason I'll be able to sleep tonight is that this thought pattern is rare.

Damn good album, by the way, just one with a horrendously broken concept with no perspective.

I disagree, but that's a given. I get how one might see it as a broken concept, as dubious as I find that. But no perspective? That is a claim I just can't follow. His perspective was made clear by the dedication. It is one of the most beautiful things I have ever read. It may be an uncomfortable meaning for some, but it is clearly a perspective. One I happen to share. At least you appreciate good music. Embryodead is the gold standard of Wumpscut albums. Just a pity he hasn't done anything worth listening to since Wreath of Barbs.

 

[Rblade]

I think that, on average, I meet just as much terrible adults as terrible children. Once you get to know them I think both will generally be pleasant.

As for the cost, well, you can go buy porches thats everyones personal choice. But you hear from everyone that children can be really cool to have around, you know, for not dying alone. My 95 year old grandmother is quickly running out of friends her age.

And additionally, in a sense it is pretty selfish to say "Well everyone that came before me inhereted money and stuff from their parents. But I'm the end of the line, I'm keeping all this money." Nothing really wrong with it but it is literally just thinking about yourself, so no matter how you spin it that is 'selfish'.

 

[lacktheknack]

I disagree, but that's a given. I get how one might see it as a broken concept, as dubious as I find that. But no perspective? That is a claim I just can't follow. His perspective was made clear by the dedication. It is one of the most beautiful things I have ever read. It may be an uncomfortable meaning for some, but it is clearly a perspective. One I happen to share. At least you appreciate good music. Embryodead is the gold standard of Wumpscut albums. Just a pity he hasn't done anything worth listening to since Wreath of Barbs.

When I said "no perspective", I didn't mean "literally doesn't have a point of view", I meant "thinks his narrow view is a standard". His viewpoint is, as you said, that "life is difficult, has no reason, and has no sense".

From where I stand, that's a baffling and completely untrue statement. For MOST people, it's an untrue statement.

That's what I meant by "having no perspective".

And yeah, he DEFINITELY went downhill in the last decade. "Boneshaker Baby" is probably the worst piece of industrial usic I've ever listened to. Thankfully, we've still got the likes of "Black Death" to listen to.

 

[Aramis Night]

I disagree, but that's a given. I get how one might see it as a broken concept, as dubious as I find that. But no perspective? That is a claim I just can't follow. His perspective was made clear by the dedication. It is one of the most beautiful things I have ever read. It may be an uncomfortable meaning for some, but it is clearly a perspective. One I happen to share. At least you appreciate good music. Embryodead is the gold standard of Wumpscut albums. Just a pity he hasn't done anything worth listening to since Wreath of Barbs.

When I said "no perspective", I didn't mean "literally doesn't have a point of view", I meant "thinks his narrow view is a standard". His viewpoint is, as you said, that "life is difficult, has no reason, and has no sense".

From where I stand, that's a baffling and completely untrue statement. For MOST people, it's an untrue statement.

That's what I meant by "having no perspective".

And yeah, he DEFINITELY went downhill in the last decade. "Boneshaker Baby" is probably the worst piece of industrial usic I've ever listened to. Thankfully, we've still got the likes of "Black Death" to listen to.

Ah I see. So you find meaning in life still. Enjoy that while it lasts. I've learned that having such high's of experience just makes the eventual despair that much worse when your reason for having it disappears. It is why I envy stillborn infants.

And since you brought it up: I hate "Boneshaker Baby". It was one thing when he was dedicating good music to miscarriages. It became something else when he started creating musical stillborn's like that disgraceful piece of garbage. He needs to just stop and retire.

 

[Eamar]

And additionally, in a sense it is pretty selfish to say "Well everyone that came before me inhereted money and stuff from their parents. But I'm the end of the line, I'm keeping all this money." Nothing really wrong with it but it is literally just thinking about yourself, so no matter how you spin it that is 'selfish'.

Only if your family has a huge amount of money that's passed from generation to generation, or a long-standing family property or something (basically if you're an aristocrat or a millionaire). Most people only pass on money they've earned themselves, anything they inherited from their own parents is most likely long gone.

And besides, it's not like your money just disappears if you die childless. You can leave it to whoever you want - a charity, a friend, a partner (which is actually who most people leave everything to anyway), or even the next generation in the form of nieces, nephews and/or godchildren. Hardly selfish, unless you want to blow the lot on an outrageously extravagant funeral or something.

 

[zelda2fanboy]

I think that, on average, I meet just as much terrible adults as terrible children. Once you get to know them I think both will generally be pleasant.

As for the cost, well, you can go buy porches thats everyones personal choice. But you hear from everyone that children can be really cool to have around, you know, for not dying alone. My 95 year old grandmother is quickly running out of friends her age.

And additionally, in a sense it is pretty selfish to say "Well everyone that came before me inhereted money and stuff from their parents. But I'm the end of the line, I'm keeping all this money." Nothing really wrong with it but it is literally just thinking about yourself, so no matter how you spin it that is 'selfish'.

So in other words, a person might want to have kids in order to have someone take care of them when they're elderly. How is looking at an innocent life that you created and considering them your future caretaker, anything other than the definition of selfish? I also do not understand the inheritance example either. A person can't "keep the money to himself" because you'll die just like everyone else does. The money will go somewhere, most likely to charity to help even more people (or to hospitals and skilled nursing facilities who will actually take care of you when you're old).